Wow. OK, lots of feedback on this whole license agreement protection thing. I can tell this is going to be a long post already. :) Ill start with some background; hopefully that will make things clearer not only about what DAZs practices are, but why they are that way.

Its easy to be restrictive in enforcing a license agreement, especially when one chooses to prohibit any type of distribution of any files that might somehow, sometime, somewhere be damaging to the sales of the product. Its easy to state such a stance in a way that is clear, concise and easily understood. On the other hand, its tricky to try to foster the free trade of add-ons and modifications for ones product without jeopardizing the sales of that product and opening the situation up to confusion and misunderstanding. That said, DAZ has chosen to pursue the latter option.

This is because we see a huge value in promoting the free trade of add-ons and modifications 99% of the time. We realize that our small company will not be able to provide all of the options that every individual in the market will want, and we realize that it will be better for our product line and the market in general to have many others able to fill those needs. We also know that the vast majority of users and developers in this market are not trying to do anything wrong. On the contrary, they are just doing what they enjoy or providing a service (for free or for money). This is wonderful and it benefits all of us.

As Steve has mentioned, the difficulties arise when people (usually inadvertently) distribute files that were created based upon another artists product, and yet which largely circumvent the need for that product. Im sure that you can all see the problem with this situation. Again, it would be easy to eradicate this problem by communicating clearly that no derivative files may be distributed in any manner. We actually debated whether to do this on day one, in clarifying our stance on the distribution of our .cr2 files, and we feel that we made a wise decision to allow such distribution. However, that decision left us with a gray area to deal with; some things are permissible and others are not. Again, this is tricky ground for any business to tread. We want people to be able to use Victoria 1's .cr2 and freely distribute it with any modifications they may have made to it. Those of you familiar with the nature of the products can see how distributing Victoria 2's .cr2 would not be good for our business, however. No one would buy Victoria 2; they would buy Victoria 1 and then get the freely distributed Victoria 2 .cr2 from someone else.

OK, thought Id start out with any easy case of circumvention. Hope the Victoria .cr2 example made sense to everyone. ;) Lets reaffirm the basic concept with another situation that most people should understand. Say someone purchased Jim Burtons Super Model Morph Vickie, DAZs Victoria, and Codetwisters The Tailor. Then using The Tailor he creates a morph target for Victoria that gives her the shape of SMMV. Nothing wrong so far. Then he distributes that morph. Now admittedly, hes not giving away SMMV itself; this new Victoria .cr2 will not have everything that the original product has, and it will be different in some ways. However, many people would choose not to buy SMMV if they could get this less expensive version that accomplishes most of what they may have wanted with SMMV. So again, this isnt right because the new distributed file was created by using Jim Burtons work, and it seriously hinders the sale of the very product it was based on.

Still with me? Lets try a trickier example, then. :) Say someone has Michael 2, and she really wants the clothing items in DAZs Combat Pak to fit some of his morphs. And she achieves that with The Tailor. No problem so far. But say she wants to distribute her morphs. Will that be permissible under the license agreement for Michael 2? Good question. Id recommend anyone considering any project in such a gray area to contact the owner of the product that may be damaged by its distribution. In this case, however, I can tell you that DAZ wouldnt mind if you took every Michael 2 morph and put it on the Combat Pak and distributed that. Why not? Because we dont feel that this would jeopardize the sale of Michael 2 as much as it would help. Some of the reasoning here has to do with the nature of these clothing items. An item like a tank top is not very usable without a body underneath that matches, so almost everyone will want to use Michael 2 in conjunction with an M2 version of this shirt. And we feel that the pants, while they cover enough of the underlying figure that Michael 2 wouldnt be necessary for their use, are still not a big enough disincentive for many people to buy M2. After all, even with a lot of morphs, these pants just dont accomplish much of what Michael 2 does.

But thats just our thinking here at DAZ. Other developers could easily decide that this is a serious enough threat to their specific product that they will not want to allow such distribution. For example, if youre using The Taylor to make a bikini fit Voluptuous Vicki, I wouldnt think that Wyrmmaster would mind. It will be pretty useless without Voluptuous Vicki. However, if youre considering making a tight suit that covers most of her body, and which would be just as usable with Victoria (1 or 2) as it would with Voluptuous Vicki, I suspect that he might not want people who didnt purchase his product to get those morphs created from his work. In either case, I would ask him first.

And just to further illustrate what DAZ considers in such decisions, Ive included a couple of images. One shows a clothing item that works almost as well on Michael 1 as it does on Michael 2; it also fills a need that serves as one of the main incentives for many users to purchase the Michael 2 product. The other image shows a clothing item that doesnt. (I think youll know which is which.)

So, where are we now? Am I close to clearing up any confusion about this whole thing? We would love to be able to explain our stance on copyright and license agreement in one quick sentence, but in order to do that it cant be a very explicit sentence, unfortunately. It would have to go a little something like this: DAZ encourages the free distribution of add-ons and modifications to our products provided that we dont feel they will seriously hinder the sale of our products. If you arent sure whether this is the case, please contact us. OK, so that was two sentences, but it was very general, as promised. ;)

In closing, I would hope that DAZ will get positive acknowledgment for what we do and how we try to do it, and even for the freedom in distribution that we do try to sponsor. I hope that you realize the difficulty of the position that we are in as a business that has chosen to make our livelihood in this market, especially when our peers in the 3D industry thought we were suicidal to offer so much for so little and open ourselves up to license infringement in ways that we never dealt with when working for production studios. Were happy with our choice. We hope you are, too. We love our work, and we love this market. We want this market to thrive and grow, and know that as it does it will be better for us all. We recognize and appreciate the overwhelming amount of help that we regularly receive from you all. Without your understanding and support for issues like respect of copyright this really wouldnt be a viable market for our company. We hope to return the favor by continuing to work hard to provide resources that will benefit you all.

We realize that many people may have misunderstood DAZs position on this issue, and we hope this post will help to clear up the majority of the confusion that may exist out there. Unfortunately, we will be out of the office for the rest of the weekend. Well be back on Monday, when we can check on how this thread is going. Thanks for not crucifying us in the meantime. crossing fingers

Chad Smith
DAZ Productions

Beleive me, I appreciate the fact that you're responding to this issue on a weekend. I have to say I tend to close off any communication if it's too long. Yours was very hard to absorb. So pardon me if I try to "translate" what you said. 1.) You're not totally against distribution of clothes altered by Tailor. 2.) You're not worried about clothes, such as a tank top that wouldn't work well without Michael 2. 3.) You are concerned about clothes such as the bodysuit which could be more effective without Michael 2's body. I assume the operative procedure would be to consult DAZ before we think about distributing Tailored clothes? Is your stance the same whether we release something Free, or it's "Commercial?!' In my case, I released a Tailored version of the Vicky Catsuit to fit my custom character. When I heard of your apparent new position on the issue, I immediately deleted any of my Free Stuff items which contained any Tailored clothing. I still can't help wonder why it took 4 months for DAZ to tell us of a potential problem here. That gave us all this time to do things that we find out later violated your policy. I don't like taking such risks.

We actually debated whether to do this on day one, in clarifying our stance on the distribution of our .cr2 files, and we feel that we made a wise decision to allow such distribution.....but, you did not. You could not foresee applications such as the tailer. Just exactly WHERE in your license agreement...the one that your customers are bound by, when purchasing the M2 characters....just WHERE in black and white....small or large print....does it say....license agreement subject to change at anytime the vendor deems? Is there some fine print in the readmes that we can't see? I don't have tailer. But, I do enjoy modelling. You cannot legally change the license agreement, after the fact. period. so, if you don't have some hidden clause in there stating that you can...and, i mean even back to when folks bought v2, long ago....then you are just blowing air.

Pretty good summary, as far as how this all relates to clothing made with The Tailor. Thanks for making that a little easier to digest. ;)

In reference to your question about free vs commercial distribution, you're right. We don't make any distinction there.

Sorry for taking so long to address this issue specifically. We apologize for the time you spent on the above catsuit, thinking that there would be no problems with its distribution, Ron. We know that you had no bad intentions with such a project, and that most of the people using your files didn't either. Thank you for you understanding. And thanks for actually pulling down all of your products in the interim, even when you didn't know our position, just to be on the safe side.

We hope that with this lengthier, more specific explanation you (and others) will now know which items could present a problem if distributed. And again as you mentioned, when in doubt, free to ask.

Thanks.
Chad Smith
DAZ Productions

I understand your concern, Poppi. Thanks for the question. The fact is that we haven't changed our stance on this issue at all. Rather, as further developments, practices and tools have arisen in the market, we've had to explain the ramifications of these trends with reference to our same license agreement. As to what the license says, you can reference it in our FAQ section on the DAZ website, in its entirety. However, one of the clauses that applies to this is as follows: "User may not reverse engineer, de-compile, disassemble, or create derivative works from the 3-D Model(s)". Also, "3-D Model(s)" refers to any type of product. Thanks again for the question. Again, we'll be back on Monday. (My wife is going to kill me if I don't leave right this second!) Chad Smith DAZ Productions

I guess the concern for me is that hundreds of people downloaded those characters and the Tailored clothes. I can't take back those downloads. So now am I in trouble? I can put the characters back up for Free Stuff once I find some other clothes, but even then I'm still worried about the exact "measurements." For instance, does a shirt and pair of pants equal the bodysuit? Will the two pieces of clothes together cover enough of Mike 1's body so that a person could cheat?! My Millennium Girl figure is a good example. You see how complicated this gets? At least one of my characters has her own uniquely morphed body taken from my own instincts, a "percentage" of different morphs (.5 on the heavy body morph, etc.) Then the total of those morphs was converted into a full body morph of my own with the name of the character. Now strictly speaking, you don't see the DAZ character's body morphs. But they're in the recipe, buried. Is that a violation?

ron, if you spawned the DAZ morphs for a character it isn't legal to distribute it, they specifically stated on their faq that you can't Spawn the morphs to create a new character... You can only distribute that model as a "pose" file.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Ok, chad... Just to make sure I'm clear; DAZ does not acknowledge that the development and distribution of Poser 4 file formats, and morph settings existing wholly within Poser 4, are, in fact, the sole and exclusive right of Curious Labs to determine? Let me put that a different way: DAZ is making a HUGE GALACTIC MISTAKE by claiming any right, whatsoever, to restrict the development of Curious Labs PRORIETARY file formats! Was that more clear? Paul

I deletd so I could better voice what I was trying to ask without being redundant :~) First of all, if the Tailor can only approximate a morph and doesn't actually transfer the morph how can this be an infringement? There is no copyright on actual bodyshapes... So what about clothes that do incorporate approximations of these morphs? Travelers Gothic Armor has similar breast morphs - so I could get a Vicky 2.0 fit - without Vicky 2.0 because the chest plate covers the upper body's chest area and no one would notice. So there are non-bodysuit items that hide the body and don't carry the actual morphs. I guess it's the whole "approximation " that gets me - if the morphs aren't being transferred than where is the infringement?? If a court declares that approximation of morphs is indeed copyright infringement than doesn't that make all the clothing items that approximate the morphs for a better fit illegal and then what will happen to 3rd party modellers whose clothing items encourage the purchasing of DAZ models since there is such a variety provided for her she is more desirable.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Attached Link: http://205.122.23.229/ronknights/

Actually, I didn't directly spawn any morphs. I concocted my own "recipe" of morphs, and then spawned a new body morph with the name of the character. In addition, these morphs were copied to "blank" versions of the character invovled. These blank versions had no morphs. When I was done these characters had the morphs I'd made with my "special recipe," and nothing of the original characters. This was done to eliminate Crosstalk, as described in my Crosstalk Tutorial. Again, once I was done, there was only a morph such as "Marlin," or "Dodi," and nothing that was seen in DAZ's morph dials. I do believe there is an important distinction there. I've bought several characters based on Vicky and Mike recently, and most were in the form of cr2 files, and not MOR files. Were those products illegal too?

Here's a screenshot of the single morph in my Marvin character. The one morph is called "Marvin."

There is no distinction Ron, if the morphs are spawned from millenium morphs they cannot be distributed - period they contain the original morphs and that is a no-no. No matter the recipe they contain morphs that can only be gotten by owning the original. When you buy a character with cr2's they were created using a limited file or vicky or michael 1, whose distribution with spawned morphs as allowed. Then the character creator adds their own morphs - not those included with any of the millenium characters (again withthe exception of V1 & M1), or morphs that are legally allowed for distribution. I have sold characters myself, I use version 1 Vicky and the morphs I bought from Traveler and I make a few with magnets, these may then be spawned into a charcter. BUT, it the spawned morph relies upon a V2 or M2 (or steph or the mil kids or baby) then the morph cannot be included in the spawned morph but must be included as a pose MAT or MOR file. So by distributing the cr2 you have given out the use of the DAZ millenium character morphs to those that may only own Vicky 1 as the millenium characters (second versions and newer models) are bqsically their morphs. That means if you make and spawn a body morph (spawning is spawning - be it a head morph or a body morph of Vicky 2.0 so I'm unsure why you say you didn't directly spawn - kind of like being kind of pregnant) and use an injector file to distribute her then someone with Vicky 1 doesn't have to buy Vicky 2.0 to benefit from the morphs because you just gave them away. Even Spawned morphs can be taken apart.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

I have spent hundreds of hours over several months making a pair of long-johns (union suit) complete with trap-door in the back for Michael2. All this was done without my knowingly violating any existing policies at the time (The Tailor was not even out yet). I'll be damned if I will now curtail plans for releasing or even submitting it to DAZ. I'll split it into a top and bottom and release the parts separately if I have to. I'm just sick and tired of the rules changing on me as I approach completion of a project. And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am a potential crook and threat to DAZ. For all their hyperbole about "encouraging 3rd party support" and "supporting the community" they are the most selfish company I have ever seen. I will honor all copyrights and intellectual properties that are in the spirit of the copyright law, but I will NOT bow to marketing pressures, threats or whims.

okay...i'm gonna try and explain this simply. the daz license for the m2 figures states that you cannot use the cr2, or ANY DERIVATIVE, THEREOF, to create characters to be distributed in any way whatsoever. I know that traveler, and, many others were modelling long before the "tailor" came out. and, some of them use "shrinkwrapping", or "contouring", "sketchonmesh", etc., to follow the curves of the figure as tightly as possible. you know...everyone likes the tight stuff on their vickis in the temple, right? okay, some, like nerd and, sergemarck put their new clothing figures through all the paces and set up their conformers the long, old, hard way. most....use existing cr2 files...and just change the reference to their new .obj in poser. also, they change the name, and perhaps some of the texture junk...this is okay...as long as you use a cr2 with no restrictions on it...i.e...the daz clothing pak one is fine as a base cr2. however...and, this is the major reason i did not spring for tailor...cause this was so very foreseeable....tailor takes the information in the m2 characters....the stuff that would make up their cr2s...and translates them into a new mesh. i am not sure about this, and, daz may actually have a point, as their m2 "readme", i.e. "contract" is so strict about redistributing the cr2's, or derivatives, thereof. you can make pose your m2 figure any way that you see fit...use your morph dials, and trace/contour/shrinkwrap/sketchonmesh to your heart's content....but...and this is the big butt...lol...you have to make your own cr2. do not presume to use the cr2 from the m2 characters, in any way. i hope i did not confuse you even more. maybe someone else can clarify what i just said. Pop...Pop....Poppi!!!

Thank you, Chad. This shouldn't be that hard for reasonable people to understand... if they can reason in the first place. I understand the need to protect my copyrights (and know exactly how much a Bay Area intellectual property lawyer charges for his time), and so I can understand DAZ's need to protect their investment of time and creative energy. Maybe it is easier for those folks who are originators, rather than derivatators, to grasp? Carolly

Attached Link: http://www.daz3d.com/pages/faq/faq.html

for further clarification try reading the FAQ at DAZ

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

"When pygmies cast such long shadows, it must be very late in the day." - Gian-Carlo Rota in "Indiscrete Thoughts"

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

I too, have been sort of secretly working on a "new" clothing pack for victoria...and, it will fit my "new" victoria character...whose body i think rocks...as far as vicki can rock. and, yes, i was planning to sell it...everything from lingerie to long formal dresses...as a pack...and, cool stuff, too....more like the victoria's secret catalogs, than either of the daz clothing packs for vick. but, hey...i designed each and every item...and, i know what i can legally get by with. i did not buy tailer. because the area it goes in to is too gray... gotta run... goin out to dinner with my clown... comin back soon 'cause i don't feel too swell tonight...a recurrence of last year's sickness....went to doc, yesterday...they put me on cipro...which does not make me feel too swell, either.

I am not stupid Carolly - far from it - I get the idea, which is why I am asking in regards to an approximate shape - not an actual copied morph(that should likewise be simple to understand). I am not asking about including the actual morphs - example it is obvious that distributing a character that includes the actual morphs in any form is copyright infringement. But from what I understand the Tailor doesn't do that. I am curious about the implication on those morphs that "approximate" a body shape without carrying the actual morph information. I am equally curious as this would imply a copyright of bodyshape - which isn't as far as I now copyrightable. So if a cr2 is created by a 3rd party, and they incoporate "approximation" morphs, those that resemble Vicky's body to gain a better fit, how is that considered infringement? If Tailor only approximates in te same way that nerd, traveler and others do where is the issue of infringement? If it actually "copies" the morph I get it. If one must distribute an original cr2 I get it, but I was under the impression that Tailor created "morphs" and the distribution of the cr2s wasn't needed - just the end resulting morph - which still needs work to fit and is not an actual replica of the DAZ morph (coke vs. pepsi lol). Or am I wrong? does the tailor copy the actual morph and do the distributed files actually contain the cr2s for the clothing article they were created for?

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

LSM: It's really kind of a moot question as you can't actually own a morph. Anything created entirely within the P4 software and belonging to an aspect of a P4 file format is owned by CL. Feel free to ask CL directly on this, if you don't believe me. I'm getting tired of repeating myself ( not to imply you, LSM-I think you're gret ). DAZ cannot restrict your ability to distribute these items, no matter how pissed off they get that theor products suck. Paul

I know this makes it seem like copying someone's lighting set and reselling it isn't piracy. The same with morph sets, etc. Well, guess what? It's not. It's still unethical and shitty and wrong, but it's not illegal. As for tailoring clothes and what not. That's not even unethical or shitty or wrong, and it sure ain't illegal, no matter what the DAZ people think. Paul

LOL.... can't own a morph.. now there is an aspect I didn't look at, that would make the entire Mike and Vicky 2.0 open game.... Doesn't Curious Labs make considerations for this - in regards to derivitave work?? Must re-read license! What about morphs created in other programs and moved into poser? Like morphs from zbrush (there's a ngihtmare program I can't get a handle on!) made for Poser ... ooooh the implications are gonna explode.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Heh. Well, most models like Mike and Vicky are protected because of the mesh, which is copyrighted. ;) So are textures ( as .jpg, .gif, whatever ). See, technically, if Curious Labs wanted to, THEY could restrict the buying and selling of Poser 4 files in P4 formats, but they never would, because it would be silly and it would kill a market that is beneficial to P4. Paul

Clear as mud, Chad. ;] So... if someone uses Rhino's skinning feature to create a conforming skintight outfit for Mike 2 and Vicki 2, then uses Rhino's follow curve feature and creates their own morphs, in their own geometry to make it fit to the copy of Mike 2's various body shapes - a Mike 2 and Vicki 2 that they purchased from you legitimately - and one where they actually include none of M2 and V2's morphs or geometry, then can they or can they not do with it as they choose? And if the answer is "No", why not? And if the answer is "Yes", then what makes that different from any of the other examples? Even further... suppose they DO use Tailor to recreate the morphs? Precisely how is that different from doing the morphs the other way? It's a legetimate function of the program, and since it's their suit they're approximating the morphs in....

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

"When pygmies cast such long shadows, ...." laugh out loud - that is precious :) Chad - thanks for posting on the weekend. I am not really very happy that DAZ made an end of day friday announcement like that - and that you are thanking folks for pulling their stuff and saying maybe Monday folks will get official answers from DAZ [did you say that??] but hey - you have to like the face you shave in the morning, not me :) Over the years, my family here have bought MANY of your products, though luckily, we didn't get the Tailor, so I myself am not affected by the tailor aspect of the announcement. One of the reasons we do business with DAZ is because, it actually IS a community oriented company. I am hoping that folks will beeline toward a middle area where all parties can be happy and supportive of each other. Personally, I adhere to all copyrights, like most all of the folks I have met in the Poser community do - however, I do see a distinction between the EULA and marketing pressure. So.. I guess I'll adopt a 'wait and see' outlook for a while instead of 'gotta buy it now!' hehe. Lastly, grats to all parties involved with the PoserPro.com acquisition/merger! It's like watching a star on the rise. I may not have posted much - but have loved the Poser community as my partner frequents often, and now I am hooked :) It has an integrity that is rare on the internet, and it is good to see it going places :) - Suede

LMAO! Integrity... Heh... that one's gonna keep me laughing for an hour... I love your sense of humour, Suede.

oh please, you'll be cussing again way before the hour is up ;-p

Last week Daz made monkeys for the poser community. And Lo [always wanted to use "'Lo" in a sentance] they were hailed unto as Gods among the community. This week Daz made monkeys out of them... The moral to this is: "Don't make a monkey out of a forum weasel. It pisses off the weasel and insults the monkey... " grin

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

LOL Ironbear, we needed that! Do you think the timing of DAZ's really great Freebie and their clamp-down on competition had anything in common???

ermmmmmmmm Don't Daz SELL the tailor program? Storm in a D cup? Seems so. If it wasn't for all the stuff people make for Micheal and Victoria....who'd want them? ps....I kinda like that gorilla thank you Daz :-) just wondering who slipped on the banana skin?

This whole issue leaves a serious bad taste in my mouth... I think its nice that an attempt has been made to clarify the issue. And clearly, making morphs that circumvent the need to buy version 2 of the models is a no no. As far as I know, Stephanie is a version 1 model (though there is a LE distributable cr2, so perhaps not). I won't be looking forward to a version 2. As a matter of fact, making new body morphs that are not based on DAZ morphs AT ALL would really be a good idea, especially if they were free. All you would need are four basic designs: thin body, fat body, muscle body and curvy body. Then those shapes could be applied to clothes (or even create MOR files for such). I'm somewhat sorry that I purchased the tailor if this is the verdict. I'm am glad that it's not a millenium-specific application so I can use it for other characters. LSM, think I'm gonna dig up my Poser 4 license too. Entropic, I love that you cut through all the BS with a chainsaw! :) Ironbear, ROFL! and double ROFL!

.

Yes, Daz sells the Tailor. Daz also sells morphs to make the Michael 1 clothing pack fit almost all of Michael 2's morphs. They sell this for $18.00 les than they sell The Tailor. So, someone who doesn;t have Mike 2 but has the Michael clothing pack can make Mike one look pretty darn close to Mike 2. Therefore, Daz has done and gone and violated their own policy and should, at the earliest convenience hire a lawyer and sue themselves silly. Drag it out forever, reach an out-of-court settlement, pay themselves off and come back scarred, but ready to carry on. Until they realise that their customer base has dwindled down to their inlaws and a few close friends. Anyone remember the Pets.com sock puppet? Exactly....

Suede, DAZ did NOT wait until late Friday to post their message. They made it Tuesday afternoon. Anybody wandering over to PoserPros during the next 3 days could have read it. It is sticky so it stays on top... not even buried. If people wait until Friday night to howl their heads off, I don't think it is the least bit fair to blame the company who posted Tuesday. You can read that very message if you want to. It answers a question and explains their reasoning. It is all extremely consistant with the decisions they have made before... and with their stated intentions. Carolly

Ladysilvermage, you are so wrong. Here is a quote from the DAZ FAQ which actually depicts exactly what I had done with my custom characters: "Characters and Scenes - Cr2 and Pz3 files: The Victoria 2 .0 and Michael 2.0 and Victoria 2 P4 Cr2 and Michael 2 P4 Cr2 files (both included in the Victoria 2.0 and Michael 2.0 products respectively) cannot be distributed in whole or in part. Pz3 files created using these models will also contain the information from the Victoria 2.0/Michael 2.0 or Victoria 2 P4 Cr2/Michael 2 P4 Cr2 files, and so cannot be redistributed either. It is legal, however, to redistribute the original Victoria 1.0/Michael 1.0 Cr2 file and the Vicki2P4 LE Cr2/Michael2P4 LE Cr2 file, which we have provided for use by those interested in distributing Victoria/Michael-derivative products for use by those already owning either Victoria 1.0/Michael 1.0 and/or Victoria 2.0/Michael 2.0. These legally distributable files are available for free download on the Victoria 2.0 and Michael 2.0 product pages." I rest my case!

I think Ron knights said it best. DAZ states that the Catsuit would circumvent the need to buy Mike2 and shows an example. Then they show an example of Mike 1 in a pair of big pants. Next look at Ron;s post, and notice what he is really saying here. What if you not only gave away a pair of pants but also a shirt. Now look back at that big guy there imagine having a shirt for him, this would hide the lack of a belly and actually make this almost as bad as the full catsuit. Because of this I still don't see the distinction. Look at runstuff's post above. He has a pair of thermals, nothing wrong there. If he akes it one piece it breaks your current stance but if he splits it into two it doesn't. The end results are the same. With this in mind I would still have to say you have egg on your face in this matter because you are now saying there is a rule but you will be discrimitory in enforcing it. That will only land you in legal trouble rather than the other way around.

Carolly, DAZ waited FOUR MONTHS to publicly state a policy concerning The Tailor. DAZ made no attempt to announce the policy here at Renderosity. I discovered the policy in a posting in the Bodysuit Hell thread, and investigated. It just so happens that I don't visit PoserPros very often. And I don't need to apologize for that. Don't poop on me or us for bringing up the issue on a Friday night. Talk to DAZ about waiting 4 months, and announcing their policy after so many of us, out of ignorance, violated the policy. Get it straight. Ron

Here's another quote from DAZ about distributing cr2 files. I'll translate it: 1.) It's ok to distribute Mike 1 or Vicky 1 cr2's, but not Mike 2 or Vicky 2. Or I think that's what they said: "What is Daz3d's Stance on the Distribution of CR2 Files? With regard to the re-distribution of CR2 files, it has generally been our practice to allow people to freely distribute the CR2 files for our products since the person would need to own the original geometry file in order for the distributed file to be of any use. There have been a few instances where our product is the CR2 file. In these cases, we couldn't allow for the distribution of the CR2 file as that would circumvent the need to purchase the product directly from us. Simply put, products like Victoria 2.0 and Michael 2.0 are CR2 files, and therefore they cannot be re-distributed."

Any shirts made to fit Vicki 2 with approximations of the Vicki 2 breast morphs will be violating Daz's interpretation of their license. (It doesn't matter what character model you use to make the watermelons stick out.)

Any pants that approximate the Vicki 2 pearshape morphs will be violating the Daz agreement. Any pants using morphs such as heavy, muscular, or barbarian wil violate the Daz agreement because the changes will cover the base mesh, circumventing the need for the upgraded mesh. Even morphs such as faerie or anime are distributable because you can spin the dial to a negative number and have the clothing enlarge around the base model.

I can grab pieces of clothing from different sources and use their Vicki 2 morphs and stick them on Vicki Lo Res (or even Posette) and, with a bit of creative posing and a touch of postwork, make those individual pieces look like one overall Vicki 2 body morph.

It's one thing to say that you can not distribute morphs that you didn't make yourself, or pieces of a mesh that you didn't make yourself. It's quite another to say that you can't distribute morphs or meshes that you made yourself, which is how Daz can interpret all items and morphs that fit their characters.

Ron, Don't bother "translating" what DAZ says in a FAQ or other legal document. The latin epigram about translating equals betraying rings quite true. I am not so lazy that I need someone to spoonfeed me regurgitated documents from another forum... I'll go and read them for myself. You have missed an essential message left by a member of this community in this very forum. Maybe you don't remember what happened 2 months ago, so that message didn't mean anything to you. You see, I do have it straight, because I can put one fact upon another and build a wall. Carolly

I FIGURED IT OUT!!! You want to know what the best way is to make money in this "Community" (using the term loosely here)... open up a Pitch Fork and Torch tent on the corner and start selling!! Jack

You just NOW figured that out, Jack? ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

If you allow that Pitchfork and Torch tent to come within 50 yards of myDead Horses and Flogs tent, I'll sue you, bucko!!! I mean the nerve of some people, to come out with an idea similar to mine and try to sell it in my own neighborhood! What's next, IB setting up a booth selling navel lenses so everyone who has their heads up their backsides can still see where they are going?

heh... call me slow and out of touch. ;o)

LOL@Pariah Damn!! That means I have got to go and see Mayor Tim and ask him if I can purchase a permit so that I don't violate your space... and I REALLY hope that that space won't be down wind of your Dead horse tent... whew that smell and all of that buzzing!! Jack

Naw. I'm sticking with the beer and popcorn concessions. No matter what the controversy, people always need refreshments and condiments after working up a thirst with their lynchings and tarrings... It's a steady market, and I don't have to worry about the tailor infringing on my popcorn. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Carolly, "Don't bother "translating" what DAZ says in a FAQ or other legal document. The latin epigram about translating equals betraying rings quite true. I am not so lazy that I need someone to spoonfeed me regurgitated documents from another forum... I'll go and read them for myself." I certainly thought you would have read the documents before you flung your usual ration at me. Gosh you didn't?! Hey, guys, I'd like to roast marshmallows when you light the torches? Could I get a permit to sell the marshmallows?

Hmmm.... tar.... damn I never thought about tar... I wonder if someone else holds the rights to sell tar... -Jack

Oh, Carolly, what important message from two months ago are you referring to? I might have missed something. But then I can't remember what I ate yesterday!

I think EvilTed may have Marshmallows. I know he has the Smores concessions...

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

There are a couple of misconceptions here that I want to try to clear up before they get out of hand. 1. "you can't actually own a morph. Anything created entirely within the P4 software and belonging to an aspect of a P4 file format is owned by CL. " No, that's not true at all. A morph is a collection of vertices. Essentially it's a mesh with the edges, facets and UV information removed. Like a mesh, it belongs to it's creator. They exist quite independantly of Poser and although you can make them in Poser using a magnet or a wave deformer, you can also make them in a host of other software applications, such as Rhino, 3DS Max, Amorphium, Cinema4D etc. Most serious creators of morphs for Poser make the morphs in another program - often Rhino. Whether a creator can copyright a file that really doesn't have meaning outside Poser, such as a pose or light file, is debatable but I don't want to get into that here. 2. Poppi's post (no 15) suggests that all of this has something to do with distribution of cr2 files. It doesn't. At least not directly. The drive of Daz's statement has nothing to do with file formats, though the example they gave is primarily about morphs. Essentially what DAZ are saying is that you can't use one of their products in the process of making something that may damage sales of that product or any of their other products, unless you have their permission. In the particular example Chad has given, you can't use Mike 2 morphs in the process of making something that damages the sales of Mike 2 or the Mike 2 morphing clothing pack. Not unless you have their permission, anyway (clearly they have their own permission, which is why they can do it if they want) I'm not making any comments on whether that position is right, fair or legally enforcable. I'm simply trying to clear a little of the muddy water that has been thrown up in this thread. 3. Ron's spawned character morphs. Ron, if you used any of the Mike 2 morphs as an "ingredient" in your "recipe" of morphs prior to spawning your full body morph, then LadySilverMage is correct and you are very much in violation of DAZ's EULA. They're quite clear about that and always have been, as the two quotes you've provided show. When they forbid distribution of the Mike 2 and Vicki 2 cr2 files, it's because those files contain morphs which can be used by people who don't own Mike 2 or Vicki 2. Moving the morphs from the Mike 2 cr2 to the Mike 1 cr2 doesn't suddenly make those morphs distributable. It doesn't make spawned derivatives of them distributable either. If you want to distribute a character based on Mike 2 morphs, you'll need to learn to make MOR poses. That's the only way to do it legally.

View Ajax's Gallery - View Ajax's Freestuff - View Ajax's Store - Send Ajax a message

I get so sick and tired of all this shit that gets slung around. It's getting to the point where you cant go a week without someone lynching somebody over something. All this "attitude" is making me ill. All I ever wanted to do was get some recognition for my work and make a buck or two. Why does everyone have to make that so difficult?

I say: stick with Posette and Dork and you can't go wrong.

Ron, I'd read them earlier (if you had paid attention). That is only part of why your "translations" are frivolous at best and misleading at worst. Remember that I answered you that I did not buy The Tailor or any clothing spawned with its help. I am suspicious of anything which comes too cheaply and that affects the work of others. I also stated in the past couple of weeks that I had purchased PhilC's excellent CD on making clothes from scratch. I don't need to steal mesh, or even borrow it slightly... and I certainly read all appertaining documents before investing time in a project. I don't enjoy yelping like a martyr so won't deliberately set up that situation, either. As for the post that you (and almost everyone else in this discussion) overlooked... if you can't trip over a fact in the middle of a mostly empty parking lot, I'm not going to tell you the slot number. Carolly

Ajax, 1) You're probably right. I won't claim the legal knowledge to say if CL can ultimately stomp this debate into the ground or not. 2) That argument means that you can not make a t-shirt with an original mesh, then modify it to fit Mike 2 as Daz already has a t-shirt that fits Mike 2. You've just created a product that interferes with the sales of a Daz product. Unless your product is VERY unique, Daz can claim interference and deny you permission to make any clothing models that work with Vicki/Mike/whatever, and even then, they can claim that they have a similar product in the works and deny permission. (Good old, Microsoft vaporware.) 3) What you pointed out is correct. If you use a morph from Mike 2 to make a character, you can not redistribute it. You can make MOR file to have Mike 2's morphs go to the correct settings. No issues with that. I've understood it since day 2 or 3. (I admit, it took a bit for me to understand what a MOR file was. I'm not always the brightest crayon in the box.) The problem is, Daz is stating that if you create morphs that will make clothing fit the Vicki/Mike 2 models, you are potentially in violation of their EULA because another model may be able to wear the clothing and have it appear as though they have those Vicki/Mike 2 morphs. It doesn't matter if you create those morphs for a Daz product or a 3rd party product. You can not redistribute the morphs that you create, no matter what mesh those morphs work on, because those morphs can give a Vicki/Mike 2 appearance to a non-Vicki/Mike 2 mesh. I'm not saying that this is an intentional Daz conspiracy to wipe out all free and 3rd party vendor stuff for the Mil figures, but as currently stated, they can do just that. (Or at least try. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't say if they'd be legally able to do it.) And y'all can corner the market on tar and feathers, but if you use it on me, it better not conform to my shape or I'll sue you for infringement!!!

Dave - I think it has something to do with phases of the moon. Seems to be a regular cycle around here. When I was a newbie, it bothered me too, then I got the hang of it and discovered that it is really good therapy. Here's how it goes. DAZ periodically makes announcements about it's products and policies. Normally we read them and say nothing because we agree with their wish to protect their products, and because we are mostly all good Dazbees. Then (usually on a Friday about the time DAZ closes for the evening)the FEVER hits. All of a sudden, something fairly reasonable starts sounding like fishy-monkey-business to us. We fear that our livelyhoods, families and reputations are being threatened by "ThePowersThatBe". We rant. We rave. We beat our chests. We make silly fools of ourselves and blow up every statement to gigantic proportions and exaggerate them to the point that they have nothing to do with the original topic. We weave about each other, sparring with words and unseen gestures in this ritual dance throughout the night. Sometimes this goes on all weekend. But by dawn on Monday we are exhausted, having spent our venom that has built up for who-knows-what reason over the past month or so. But we are relieved... refreshed... almost invigorated. And when DAZ arrives at work we greet them with "Good Mrning, sirs", "Did you have a nice weekend, sirs?", "How can we serve you today, sirs?". And all the furror of the previous fever seems to be forgotten by all but a few who got scorched by the flames. But it was really their own fault for dancing too close to the fire.

Well I would buy that but I aint a newbie. I was here before this became Renderosity. I've seen adminstrations come and go. Heck my Poser 4 is still in it's original Metacreations folder (although the prog bears a Curious Labs logo). I've seen some lynch mobs during all days of the week not just on "Friday night". It doesnt take much for us to pick up our pitch forks and torches to go after somebody. It gets a little tiresome and downright annoying when there are better things to talk about. We should be encouraging and supporting one another instead of all this name calling and back stabbing.

You left out "We dance around and poke fun at all and sundry, just because... " ;] We're not all good Dazbees. Some of us don't really give a rats. Some of us don't neccessarily think that just because it has Daz on the label, it's "quality through and through oh my!". And on the other extreme, some of us think that Daz tends to make reasonably good products and freebies coupled with the occassional boneheaded business decision. ;] They do not in any way have a monopoly on that, but they are just as capable of doing it as say... CuriousLabs, Renderosity or DSi. And by now they should have figured out that when that's the perception, they're going to get their fair share of cheap shots aimed their way. If you happen to wonder which category I fall into... I'm in the "I happen to think they usually make decent products, but I've bought equally as good or better stuff from non Daz outlets" category. And I enjoy the occassional cheap shot when someone leaves themselves wide open.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

LMAO@ronstuff!!!! That sums it all up in a nutshell LOL Sassy who's stayed out of all the threads... til now!

"Own the Day"

*Live*Laugh*Love*Dream*Believe*

DS user since the first alpha :)

Poser user through P5

Hrm... Except that we are also overlooking the fact that DAZ is now blatantly attempting to compete on a wholesale level with Renderosity's MP. Think the month-long acquisition of Poser Pros and the policies that effectively damage Rosity's merchants directly is all a coincidence? Especially when we couple that with DAZ's policy of "acquiring" rosity exclusive vendors... I'd say this is the opening shots of something that's bound to be a knock-down fight. The fact that DAZ is making cheap shots sure as hell doesn't make me feel very comfortable about dealing with them. ( And in fact, I won't be any longer ). As I said elsewhere recently, this will eventually improve the community, I think, but the road to get there will be a rocky one. Paul

DAZ's "clarification" makes it clear why they are concerned. Or should that be paranoid? It cannont, however, change the fact that their "policy" is legally unenforcable. In fact, it's even more hilarious. In effect, they are saying that no one can make full body suits for the millennium characters! (All DAZ would have to do is look at this totally original catsuit, claim that the shape of it could be obtained using millennium morphs, and call it a copyright violation!) Where in hell do they get that one? Thanks for the giggle, DAZ. Does it occur to you guys at all, that someone who wanted to circumvent the need to buy Victoria 2 or Michael 2 would find it way, way easier to just pick up a warez copy than to go to all this trouble? I'll bet it has. But instead you are making unenforcable policies that will put off your loyal customers and discourage those whose products are largely responsible for DAZ's success. Sheesh.

By the way, I am assuming that you all have heard the news about DAZ acquiring PoserPros and their intent to create a retail store there for the "second-rank" [my term] software that might not otherwise meet DAZ store criteria. And they intend to allow their own merchants to distribute items that others will be forbidden to distribute. Just thought I would throw another log on this dwindling fire.

You're kidding? That doesnt seem quite fair IMHO.

No, it's not fair actually.. I mean, when you boil it down, the only peeps buying our stuff is us really :) I do not want to cast any dispersions on the acquisition/merger though, I am actually quite happy for them.. but I would be less then honest if I didn't say that the timing of the two announcements hasn't given me a sense of unease. Its all just conjecture though really - I guess I am back to 'wait and see' lol :) time will tell

Ah Carolly.. my bad there. but, I guess sometimes it is better to run the risk of being corrected then to think thoughts in private and not know better, so thanks for the info :) Chad, I owe you one shave.. and it's a smashing face I am sure :)

Only month long, Paul? Heh. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Sorry, Ironbear... just going on what the "official" line proclaims, and since I hadn't looked at it for several hours I may be off. ;)

Again, I point to my most recent product (with ivyroses), Peytrov. This character comes with a CUSTOM ORIGINAL MESH bodysuit that fits the character's specific combination of morphs and FBM's, but does not, itself, morph. There are no morphs at all in the CR2 of this file. It was shaped to fit a specific body type created using M2. Is this particular product a violation? If not, good. if so, should I delete said product?

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

{{{{By the way, I am assuming that you all have heard the news about DAZ acquiring PoserPros and their intent to create a retail store there for the "second-rank" [my term] software that might not otherwise meet DAZ store criteria. And they intend to allow their own merchants to distribute items that others will be forbidden to distribute. Just thought I would throw another log on this dwindling fire.}}}} Thanks for admitting that all you are doing is attempting to stoke the flames ;) I think that allows us all to dismiss out of hand all that you have said. But for those who might actually have fallen for this, he could not be farther from the truth. There are no different rules for distribution available to DAZ brokers than to any other store as far as what is allowed to be distributed. This biggest difference between DAZ and other brokerages is that DAZ is MORE restrictive on it's own merchants than any other organization out there on quality, and sometimes on "what something actually is". The rest of you can get away with almost anything, depending on where you sell ;) As to second rate, not so long as I have my name attached to it, it will not be second rate. I do not do second rate. This will be a first rate store just as it always was going to be :) Nothing second rate about it. It is still some ways away, so I invite you all to come see when we do get it open, and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

"Thanks for admitting that all you are doing is attempting to stoke the flames ;) I think that allows us all to dismiss out of hand all that you have said." Thanks for being dismissive, Mehndi... I doubt the rest of us will take your advice and dismiss it as well. And I'm not sure DAZ has higher quality standards... in fact, I'm pretty sure the best texture for Stephanie, Aeris, was released here, and still resides in the Market Place. When it was released, DAZ's textures for their own model sucked completely. In fact, most of them still do. Paul

Carolly it's a shame you wasted your money on Phil's CD, not that I'm saying it's no good, I'm sure it's excellent. What I'm saying is you can't use it to make any clothes for the millenium figures & share or sell them. Daz are saying if you make any clothing for their figures and distribute you're breaking the law. Fair enough you can't use the morphs to make clothes that's understood, but then they go on to state you can't make your own mesh and wrap it round the figure, which really defeats the purpose of owning the figures or phil's CD totally. Plus if you take their morphing clothing pak and take the morphs from each seperate piece you can get mike2 for free anyway, so they are in breach of their own copyright. Sorry Daz but you've just killed your company with legal bs. Rob

ummm, did any one miss the fact this a marketing exercise.OK so you cant distribute the morph, BUT a person can go to Daz and buy the tailor themselves sound of cash register

Rob, Who says that I intend to share, sell, or otherwise distribute that which hasn't been built? Or if perchance I do construct something which folks clamor to obtain, that I'd be too stupid to talk to the good folks at DAZ before releasing it? (Sheesh, they made their reasoning clear MONTHS ago!) Besides, I might not even be working with millennium figures. The items I am interested in constructing fall into a very narrow niche. I doubt if anybody here would be attracted to truly authentic viking gear. When there is all this fantasy armor and winged helmets and brass brazzieres, bone iceskates and carved prows wouldn't get noticed. I need to build an animated clock in the shape of Baba Yaga's hut for one enterprise... and if anybody here knows THAT specific reference off the top of their head, I'll be duly impressed! There are a couple other directions calling to me. But when folks would rather get their props and costumes from Hollywood? :: "All that is gold does not glitter...." Any learning enterprise isn't wasted money. Not ever. But pity can be wasted on those who don't need it. Why don't you take that pity and give it to someone who wants it badly? Carolly

Seems like DAZ is out to break any third party creators or their sites by way of their 'new' EULA. Thus removing competition (their words not mine) Has anyone received any notification that amends the EULA that they agreed to when they first purchased the Mil people V2's? In fact, has anyone agreed to this amendment? It stands to reason that such an attempt to stop any third party or sites from creating anything that could harm their sales is the basis for their new EULA. They appear to feel somewhat threatened..IMHO. Legalities? Don't think its legally enforcable somehow......

I would just take a half sphere, put alot of "sticks" sticking through it artfully to create sort of a straw roundhut with it, then mount it on top of long spindly bird legs. I think one of the animal based sites have bird legs available. As to not being able to make anymore clothes without it being illegal, stuff and nonsense. DAZ has not said this, and they support 3rd party clothing makers fully. What they are not wanting to have happen are merely certain abuses that have caused an impact on their business ability to sell their own original meshes, such as catsuits that can be used to substitute for an actual body, thereby enabling people to avoid purchasing the body the catsuit shape was derived from.

No disrespect here..but the catsuit was only an example they used...they did not specify that it was the only thing their new EULA was about..that bit was very very broad and open to 'changes of interpretation as they want', which in effect gives no-one a sense of peace. When one buys something, they want clear and concise indications of the terms and conditions..not inferred or suggested or even conditions that can be altered at any stage of the game should they (the sellers - DAZ) decide. my personal opinion

Posting mostly to be e-mail notified of new inputs, but I'd like to reiterate and clarify the more general concerns I voiced in another thread (http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=765077) : The interpretation of the DAZ EULA I'd like to know is WRONG is as follows : A hopeful creative 3rd party operator, let's call him C3PO, wants to create a new product, say a bra for Vicki 2, with her attractions set to XXL size, as it has occurred to him that some Poserites might use some setting like that on V2. Being an honest guy, he checks the DAZ EULA to make sure he's on legally firm ground. He thinks logically, not legally, so, to him, it seems to boil down to what is the raw material, and what is the production process, or : 1) The DIDO principle - DAZ In, DAZ Out 2) The 3PIDO principle - 3rd Party In, DAZ Out So, C3PO asks himself, can I use the chest group of the Vicki mesh as a base? No - if one uses any DAZ-made material as raw material, it doesn't really matter what he does to it. No matter how much booleaning, smoothing, triangulation, vertex decimation etc. he applies, the result is still derived from original DAZ stuff. DAZ in, DAZ out. So, EULA says : Do not distribute w/out DAZ permission. Fair enough, C3PO would be pissed, if anyone used HIS product that way. All right, says C3PO, if I use my own mesh, can I apply the XXL-relevant MORPHS to it - perhaps using this fancy new Tailor thing? No, that'd STILL be using DAZ mesh as (part of) the raw material - morphs are essentially meshes in another format. So it's still DIDO, EULA says no. A lawyer might say yes, but C3PO sides with the EULA - morphs are based on meshes, and DAZ morphs on DAZ meshes. Okay, C3PO buys a modeling app, claws his way up the learning curve, reads all the tutes, and models the bra. Sooner or later (sooner, if he's smart), he'll have to check his creation against the Vicki mesh, and adjust as needed. He may automate the fitting process by using, say ClothReyes or Magnetic Vertex, or he may do it all by hand. But the point is : he HAS to "model against" the Vicki mesh. Even if he only checks his mesh against Vicki in side Poser, he is STILL fitting his mesh to DAZ stuff, and that holds true whether he decides to model his own morphs, or just do a suit for the base figure. The finished C3PO bra, including any self-made morphs, however, has not a single vertex in it that "started life" in a DAZ mesh. But, alas, EULA (http://www.daz3d.com/pages/faq/answers/license/2nd-derivative.html) lists unacceptable methods of deriving new meshes from DAZ models, and includes "methods involving tools that can create a derivative mesh without transferring the polygonal layout of the original. These types of tools/methods may include [...] shrink-wrapping/fitting [...] none of these methods will result in a mesh that is not still subject to DAZ's copyright. " So, having fitted his mesh to a DAZ mesh to make it at all useful, logically, our poor C3PO must face the fact that it becomes subject to the 3rd Party In, DAZ Out, or 3PIDO, principle. Or, to put it simply, if you create ANYTHING that's useful with DAZ products, you violate DAZ copyright. Knowing DAZ as a reasonably bunch of people, our C3PO cannot imagine that DAZ intended this consequence of their EULA. But he can't (and won't) do a lot of work, only to have a permanent risk of being sued hanging over his head. So he'd very much like to know that he's wrong. So please, let's hear it - DAZ says ?

That's a pretty good reason for the rule, now, that I think of it... DAZ MUST be worried that people will start posting headless catsuits instead of Mike 2. Ok... now it's all clear.

The whole thing revolves about a bodysuit which 'somehow' can circumvent the need for Mike/Vicky 2.
Pardon my saying so, but that is just so much bullshit. Anyone who has enough criminal energy to circumvent the purchase of Mike/Vicky 2 in this way will do something different. He will fire up any of at least a dozen P2P applications and get the original Mike/Vicky 2 (plus skin tectures, hair and clothes).
In effect DAZ equates third party vendors and free stuff offerers with warez providers.

Hey Carolly, Colour yourself impressed. I know who Baba Yaga is and what her hut looks like and I'd be much more interested in some authentic Viking gear than in any of the fantasy armour I've seen. What's more, I could most likely spot it if you haven't done your research properly ;-)

View Ajax's Gallery - View Ajax's Freestuff - View Ajax's Store - Send Ajax a message

Yes, want hut with chicken legs too. ;)

Two things: 1. thip: you and several others are obviously wrong. Of course you can make and sell clothes for DAZ meshes! What nonsense to suggest anything else. 2. Everybody: DAZ is a company with owners and employees just like any other. They need to protect their investments and products, and I think they do so in a reasonable way. In fact, they are not particularly restrictive, allowing all sorts of derivative products and freebies to go unchecked into the communities' melting pots. That they won't allow us to sell or give away stuff that can damage their products' market, is fine. In fact, I would consider them fools otherwise. (This Mike catsuit thing - don't know whether this is an issue or not. I'm speaking more generally here, just as Chad is.) If you want to see restrictive, unpleasant practices, go out there and take a look at what the music companies, film studios, Coca Cola, MacDonalds, Microsoft, and other gargantuans do. That's a whole other ball game, kids. So stop being so darn neurotic. And if you want to sell stuff that is add-on to DAZ products, fine - but READ and UNDERSTAND the agreements and conditions, don't just take a chance. If you have trouble interpreting it all, then fine, ask a lawyer or some other person in the know to explain it to you. If you don't fully understand the conditions, you are at risk, regardless of the market you're in, the type of products you're selling. If you sell soft drinks in bottles shaped like a Coke bottle, you WILL get trouble. Even in Timbuktu. I'm a multimedia producer, I use software, video, music and images and other stuff in my productions, stuff made by other people. I can NEVER just claim that the conditions were difficult to understand if I make a mistake. It's my problem to understand, my responsibility. I think DAZ is fairly generous, they have chosen to be so from a marketing standpoint since it increases the sales potential of their products, which is a correct analysis in my view. However, this 3D world changes all the time, gets messy, and now they clarified their standpoint. Fine. The conditions for distribution of Vicki and Mike cr2's and the like has always been perfectly clear. Just read them. So all this lynch mob stuff, just drop it, kids. There's way too much paranoia here. Let's be glad that DAZ hasn't done the TOTAL BAN thing from the beginning, that would have been easier for them. They've chosen to be fairly open. And that's one of the prime reasons this is such a thriving community and all you vendors have something to sell. And someone to sell it to. Remember folks, this isn't a flea market on a back street in Djakarta - it's a fully-fledged international commercial marketplace with ALL that it entails. :] FishNose

OK, here is what it boils down to in my mind: 1.) It's ok to make a pair of shorts for Mike and distribute it. 2.) It's not ok to create a bodysuit for Mike because Mike 1 can borrow the suit, and pretend he's Mike 1. 3.) It's ok to make and sell such a suit if you have an exclusive arrangement with DAZ.

FishNose - it's not paranoia when you KNOW someone's out get you ;o) Seriously, I couldn't agree more with your appraisal of DAZ. That is precisely why I expect them to understand that I (and many other clothes creators) would like a clarification of the unclear EULA. Personally, I am certain that DAZ both accepts and encourages 3rd party stuff, as long it is original (as opposed to having "started life" as DAZ stuff, before being doctored to camouflage its origin). BUT my beliefs just aren't good enough, IMHO. Why ? - At last count 20000+ people had d/l'ed my humble freestuff. - I am part of an up-and-coming website that takes people's MONEY in return for my humble creations. - BOTH some of my freestuff AND some of my commercial items can and may be used to create new Poser stuff. If any of all those people should ask me if my stuff is legal (especially if they are about to do some stuff of their own based on mine), it's just not good enough to answer "I believe I am". I want to be able to say "Yes!" without reservations. This is not a trivial matter, and since DAZ are pros, I believe they'll understand that. AND understand that happy 3rd party producers are the best sales-boosters imaginable. And now I promise to say no more until monday. Keep cool, all!

Ajax: "3. Ron's spawned character morphs. Ron, if you used any of the Mike 2 morphs as an "ingredient" in your "recipe" of morphs prior to spawning your full body morph, then LadySilverMage is correct and you are very much in violation of DAZ's EULA. They're quite clear about that and always have been, as the two quotes you've provided show./" Nope, sorry, DAZ was not very clear on that topic, or I wouldn't have done what I did. That's very simple. *** Mehndi: "There are no different rules for distribution available to DAZ brokers than to any other store as far as what is allowed to be distributed." WRONG. DAZ will allow you to sell a bodysuit that will make Mike 1 look like Mike 2 if you have an exclusve relationship with DAZ. However, DAZ won't let you give away or sell such a bodysuit elsewhere. *** FishNose: "So stop being so darn neurotic. And if you want to sell stuff that is add-on to DAZ products, fine - but READ and UNDERSTAND the agreements and conditions, don't just take a chance. If you have trouble interpreting it all, then fine, ask a lawyer or some other person in the know to explain it to you. If you don't fully understand the conditions, you are at risk, regardless of the market you're in, the type of products you're selling." Maybe DAZ and others could make an effort to be more understandable? Isn't that why they have an FAQ, and why they come into Renderosity and PoserPros, and make an effort to talk to us? "Neurotic?!" Hardly. Oh, and just why didn't DAZ have the common sense or decency to voice their objections to The Tailor before we spent our money on it, and before we distributed things which are now potentially illegal? And why did DAZ wait until after they had exclusive selling rights to The Tailor to announce their policy? And why is it ok to distribute said offending products only if you have an exclusive arrangement with DAZ? If Mike 1 can pretend to look like Mike 2, DAZ is still losing a potential sale... But it's ok if DAZ profits from that theft?! So you see your little lesson on the world economy doesn't hold much water.

And what happens if I make a software with features like Tailor and many more? This software can be: 1) Sold 2) Free 3) Open source ??????????

Stupidity also evolves!

Ron, there are NO DIFFERENT RULES for us. What I mean is we have to ALL ask. As it so happens, the answer given will always probably be, "only if you sell it on our site". But the rule is the same. We all have to ask :) The answer will probably always be the same too. This is no different than Discreet saying that ONLY authorized distributors may carry their products, so that you do not ever see a Discreet product out at CompUSA. It is no different than the fact that K-Mart will NEVER carry an Armani suit, no matter how much Martha Stuart crap clutters it's shelves. Certain high quality places heavily restrict who can market what where, it is how they stay high quality and keep their edge. So if I want to sell certain things, I know in advance where I am going to need to go to ask to sell them, and also what the answer will be :) I can worth within the system to achieve my needs and DAZ's. I am cool with that. Why aren't you?

Mehndi: another merchant who brokers with DAZ has stated that DAZ told it's brokering merchants some time ago that it was unacceptable for V2 or M2 compatible morphs to be included in clothing created for Vicky and Mike, unless that clothing was sold through DAZ. Even when those morphs were created on an entirely original mesh, using magnets. This wasn't a public announcement, but if true (it was stated in the Merchant's Forum here) it's clear that protecting copyright is NOT what DAZ had in mind. They are trying to destroy the competition.

As it so happens, the answer given will always probably be, "only if you sell it on our site". What is with free stuff? Will DAZ host it too? ;P

Mehndi, I don't feel "ready for prime time." I'm not ready to try selling something. On the other hand, I did my research, and waited 4 months before I released my first Free Stuff characters. Then I discover that I had unwittingly violated DAZ's current stance on distribution of Tailored clothing. So because I am not ready to sell an item, I can be found in violation of DAZ's policy. However, if I were ready to sell something, it would be ok to violate DAZ policy if I made an exclusive arrangement to sell with them? Perhaps DAZ should rewrite their Tailor policy and clearly state it's ok to make clothes that allow Mike 1 to look like Mike 2 as long as DAZ makes a profit. DAZ still stands to lose some Mike 2 sales. But DAZ is ok with that as long as they make money from another product DAZ sells. Of course, if you push this policy, you'll see that Renderosity and other fine sites will lose merchants or sales. Isn't DAZ in effect helping to kill the "free market"?! Now, I can't help notice that one vital question keeps getting ignored: "Why in hell did DAZ wait 4 months to voice an objection to such a practice? And why didn't DAZ make this policy available for all of us to see?!" I revisited DAZ's FAQ and couldn't find that policy. Besides, if DAZ is interested in keeping us informed, they darned well should have posted that policy here at Renderosity.

Eirian, I am a DAZ broker, and I get ALL Daz mailings on policy to their brokers ;) At no time has such a statement been made to us. I have no doubt however that someone may have said such a thing, since there has been certain merchants not happy with DAZ and wishing to grind an axe sometimes. Ron, does it really matter why it took 4 months? Frankly, DAZ has been busy. They work 12 to 16 hour days slaving over a hot computer developing their stuff to sell. I know. I see the timestamp on the emails that come in to me from the developers at DAZ. Maybe it was not till actually testing The Tailor to include in their store that they actually had time to comprehend fully what the tailor did and enabled to happen. Did that ever occur to you all? Also, as I have said, there has been a certain model or two released recently that has also contributed to this crises being precipitated. So they are tackling solving a problem after it occurred. Sometimes we all have to do that since we are not precognitive. As to keeping you informed, they chose PoserPros since this is where alot of general day to day communications may be occurring from now on. I am not sure why they may not have chosen other sites. I do not make decisions on where posts should be made, all I do is flag posts they make on my own site so they are "sticky" and remain visible. Perhaps if this site could flag things sticky they would have posted here. Sticky is a strong and empowering tool for announcements.

Think, Ron, for just a minute. Forget about your frustrating experience with this, for a minute. Ask yourself now: if someone came up with Taylor, what else is comming? what's the next program going to do? and how could that damage DAZ. You know as well as I do that in this field there is always something new comming along. Now put yourself in DAZ's shoes. What would you do? Would you try to protect your line? Would you enter into such agreements at least in the short term, untill you get your bearings? You've been in business. You know how it goes. This was unavoidable. The minute I heard P5 was comming out, I stopped work on a freebie project myself. That's how it goes. This can be worked out. There is no need to run for the life-boats, here. Don't invest too much in this. Cheers Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

AFAIK, it isn't the case that anything that appears in an EULA necessarily has legal force. There's a story, I don't know if it's true, that Microsoft tried to put in a clause that would prohibit using Microsoft software to write anything that was unflattering to Microsoft. You can't do that sort of thing. There are laws of copyright, and those are what count. If you take a DAZ mesh, shift every polygon randomly a fraction, and then try to publish the result, you have created a derivative mesh and that's bad. If you model the mesh from scratch and then just check that it fits Vicki as suggested by thip above, that's not derivative, even if DAZ would like to define it as so. DAZ does not have the power to change copyright law or the meaning of the English language just to suit its business model.

Mehndi, Sounds like you have become nothing but a spokeperson for DAZ. You are missing the point here. DAZ used the catsuit as a good example of what they will not allow. The reasoning? You can place the catsuit on Mike1 and it will look like Mike2. Ok I will give them that. They then state that it is OK to make a pair of Pants, because if you leave the shirt off mike it won't look right. But what if I make both a pair of pants AND a shirt? You can put both the shirt and pants on Mike and get the EXACT same result as using a one piece outfit. It doesn't matter that I modelled this item completly on my own or even made the morphs completly on my own. It FITS a mike2 morph and therefor breaks thier copyright. This is completly wrong! Think about this senario and think about the ramifications. If they take a stand on this then I can make only pants or shirts but not both. Why limit a modeller to just one catagory? Oh wait, they aren't. If I agree to sell through them I can do it. That is utter BS also as it stands in the way of free market. The analogy of K-mart not being able to sell Armani suits isn't a good one. It is the creator of the Armani suits that are setting this limitation, not K-Mart. In this case It is DAZ saying I can't sell at other stores if I make something, it doesn't matter if I have an agreement with them or not. If I make a Shirt and Pants set I should be able to say it can be sold only at such or such site. The sites can't say I can't sell it elsewhere if I have never entered an agreement with them.

Kattman, Vicky wears a catsuit, while Mike wears a bodysuit. That confuses me too. Mehndi, I didn't see any announcement that state you're now an official DAZ spokesperson, or that PoserPros is now the "exclusive" site where DAZ makes announcements. In fact, there have been other DAZ spokespeople and announcements made here at Renderosity. And DAZ would do well to keep their presence here known as well as their policies. As it stands now, PoserPros doesn't have anywhere near the appeal and usefulness for me that Renderosity does. And your comments in some of these threads have frankly been less than flattering to yourself and PoserPros. That's something you might want to consider since you've now "gone commercial." Ron

FWIW: I somehow doubt Rosity intends to restrict what you can sell in the MP, regardless of what DAZ seems to think... At least, that's my take on Jeff's post. ;) Paul

This is the totally wrong thing for Daz to do even from a business standpoint. If the Poser 5 models are even HALF as good as Vicki and Mike, merchants will drop them like hot potatoes and switch to models they CAN make clothes and morphs for. And if enough merchants do this, the user market will make the switch, too. I haven't been too happy with daz for a number of reasons lately, but this really takes the cake. Why bother putting in all those morphs if the models are meant to be used in their default (boring) states? For still images it's not THAT big of a deal.. people can postwork clothes onto models. I guess that wouldn't be an infringement in Daz's eyes, unless they feel that drawing "morphed" clothing could infringe on their copyright because people could make morphs SIMILAR to mike and vicki 2 based on those pictures.. (Sorry, just HAD to say it. ;) But for people making animations, clothing is key. I hope Poser 5 has some decent models and the ability to clothe them right in the package. It's what Daz deserves at this point.

If you model the mesh from scratch and then just check that it fits Vicki as suggested by thip above, that's not derivative, even if DAZ would like to define it as so. DAZ does not have the power to change copyright law or the meaning of the English language just to suit its business model. ....Thank you, Phantast. I have been peeping something along this line throughout this whole mess...to deaf ears. Maybe it was not till actually testing The Tailor to include in their store that they actually had time to comprehend fully what the tailor did and enabled to happen. Did that ever occur to you all? This occured to me....and, i see them shifting to try and change the rules after the fact. THIS IS NOT LEGAL...however, if i could foresee this hoopla, when the tailor program was introduced, and did not purchase since the transferring of morphs seemed a little legally "iffy"...why did not the great minds who run daz pick up on that as well....? seems to me....okay....you make a mesh, by hand in a modelling app....then, let's say, you made a dress for vicki...you twist your vicki dials and export her into your modelling app...and, hand pull morphs for the breast area... now....you make a whole little package of this sort of clothing....a whole new clothing pack for vicki...and, it can morph to fit small/medium/large/xxlarge vicki chests...coolness...you have lingerie, short dresses/long full, long sleek dresses/shorts/slacks, and a couple of blouses. and, you have some buyers. you would rather not sell through daz, or renderosity...because they would take half of your profits. What is plug ugly about this latest daz move is: they would have EVERYONE believing that anything created, even as a totally new mesh for the m2 figures, must be "okayed" for sale by them...guess what...i take my little clothing pack, and my little vicki that it fits to them, ask for an "okay"...and, of COURSE they are gonna say....you can sell this...but only at our site, or at poserpros. however, the law is the law...sadly folks aren't understanding that if you create a mesh...and you create an original morph/s....that's yours. it does not belong to daz because you made it to fit one of their characters. what is and is not acceptable in their readme is....no redistribution of cr2's in any form. folks may believe daz, though. and, daz will pretty much corner the market, due to ignorance and fear on the part of the clothing makers. that could kill off renderosity, other sites, and independent modellers...and, yes, there is free stuff...too...

1)Daz3D brought www.poserpros.com 2)Daz will be opening a proper storefront with that url /and/ a forum. 3)Certain elements in the community, who's products don't met the Daz standards are now extrememly worried that Daz, who have said if it contains morphs from V2, M2 Mk, Stef etc, sell it thorugh us, will now be seen for what they really are: money hungry 3rd raters with no talent and only here to take your money. One final thing I'd like to say is this: What happened to the days when /everything/ was free, when no one cared about money only the art? Remember folks, the art is the only important thing, /not/ money or who owns what or who is trying to screw who. Shaerra who's been around since the days of Willow, Grey and www.poserforum.com, just why bother trying to talk to muggles about magic?

3)Certain elements in the community, who's products don't met the Daz standards are now extrememly worried that Daz, who have said if it contains morphs from V2, M2 Mk, Stef etc, sell it thorugh us, will now be seen for what they really are: money hungry 3rd raters with no talent and only here to take your money. Geeze, this is harsh. Remember folks, the art is the only important thing, /not/ money or who owns what or who is trying to screw who. Well, at one time, creating a render was enough for me...but, then, i started to want to make it "mine"...so, i learned morphing....then, i did some texturing....and guess what....this finally lead to learning...painfully, may i add to model. i began to feel like more of a "true" cg artist, at that point...and, began doing less artistic creation in the rendering aspect...and, more modelling. it didn't much matter...i was learning something, and felt that, finally i could truly think in terms of making everything in my render by myself. then, i hit on a really cute combo of vicki's dials....and, i made a dress or two for it...and, saw some flaws, and dumped them...but, i persisted....i spent a helluva long time trying to figure out how to get a long skirt to conform...i can't say all this wasn't fun...it was/is...and, then, there is texturing for the little dresses/and stuff i made. i love zbrush....it does some really cool stuff....so, i set out to try and learn it for at least it's texturing functions...yup...fun, too. now, everything is just about ready....a tweak here, a tweek there, and the dreaded texturing...i thought i would sell this. i thought all that i made, and hassled with, and learned through my flops could finally pay off a bit. then here you come, struttin' in....and, implying that making meshes is not art, and, if i want to reap any rewards from months and months of trial and error...and..."no, this is STILL not good enough" I am GREEDY. i don't care how long you have been around. old timers can be wrong too. and, in my not so humble opinion....it is wrong to lump folks into any kind of group without knowing them a bit, first.

Posting for email back.

Maybe it is the Poser community (and possibly places such as Renderosity) to blame for all this. If everyone were not so keen to make a quick buck from everyone else, then the community would actually find something else to talk about than copyright issues. The Poser community wonders why it is never taken seriously from the outside...look at yourselves! You are like a bunch of kids, arguing over a toy! I don't blame DAZ, at least they try to run their business professionally, more than what can be said for the small time "businesses" that cry fowl at every chance they get. Don't forget, without DAZ, there would have been no business for you to have built a foundation on. If you feel so aggrieved by DAZ's actions, then build your own version of Mike or Victoria, and then try to keep up with developments as they arise surrounding your figures! Wise up people, this is business...it's called "protecting your assets"! What I can see from the outside, is the Poser community imploding as everyone fights for their slice of the "greed cake". I'll just wait around for the crumbs at the end ;o) Cheers

 

Website: The 3D Scene - Returning Soon!

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

YouTube Channel

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

Oh geesh Ron, get a clue and re-read the FAQ - I'm not trying to be harsh - but you can't possibly miss what they are saying! You are refusing to see it because you refuse to see that you made a mistake in the creation of the character - admit it - remove it and get over it. Simply save her as a pose file and don't include the cr2 and you are fine. ONLY vic or Mike 1 can have the cr2's distributed (unless you are using the special files for this)and you used the PreTeen. What they are saying is that you can NOT re-distribute the morphs that are in thr cr2's of these characters because they are based on the mesh of the version 1's, so therefore those that came after are the sum of their morphs! By giving aways the morphs you are giving away their additional character parts. NO, I am not wrong, I had called DAZ about Stephanie distribution when she first came out and spoke with AnneMarie personally for a statement on this for 3-D Arena, and then DAZ released a generic statement everywhere (including here) for those who wanted to make characters featuring their models. The FAQ is very clear and easy to read - if one isn't scurrying for cover because they f*ed up.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

-Bookmark :)

I am Soooo confused now! I think I'll just stop posting anything modified by the Tailor. I don't understand why its a problem as long as you still need the orginal OBJ to use it. But I don't want to get sued. Should I delete the ones I posted already?

LadySilverMage, No you are wrong. The version of my Millennium Girl figure most recently shared was a MOR file, not a cr2. By the way, there is an LE version of the Millennium girls. That is perfectly acceptable to distrubute, a cr2, just as it is for Mike and Vicky. I had previously used that method. Again, that too was legal, since I used the cr2 file provided by DAZ. By the way, the "analogy of Vicky and Mike" doesn't apply to the Millennium Girls, since there is no Version 1 and version 2. My Marvin character was a cr2, consisting of morphs copied onto the acceptable version of Mike. That is the one that may or may not have been acceptable, since the wording of DAZ's FAQ is murky at best. To be careful, I removed all my characters from Free Stuff. Now that you have the correct facts, maybe you care to make an informed comment? This is fun.

Attached Link: http://store.daz3d.com/store/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=ZP1&Product_Code=ps_pe023&Category_

Just in case you doubt me on the Millenium Girls, check out the link. Here's a qutoe: "Update: Redistributable Version of the Millennium Girls' CR2 File mgirlsLE.sit mgirlsLE.exe" **** Oh, and I read this paragraph, and that's why I felt it was legal to share my customzied Mike figure as a cr2. If I'm wrong, it's that damned legaleze again. "It is legal, however, to redistribute the original Victoria 1.0/Michael 1.0 Cr2 file and the Vicki2P4 LE Cr2/Michael2P4 LE Cr2 file, which we have provided for use by those interested in distributing Victoria/Michael-derivative products for use by those already owning either Victoria 1.0/Michael 1.0 and/or Victoria 2.0/Michael 2.0. These legally distributable files are available for free download on the Victoria 2.0 and Michael 2.0 product pages." 

not only to get ebots, but: mehndi: "I would just take a half sphere, put alot of "sticks" sticking through it artfully to create sort of a straw roundhut with it, then mount it on top of long spindly bird legs. I think one of the animal based sites have bird legs available." that would be not very accurate. carolly, baba yaga's hut sits on only one chicken leg, that cuts your expensis for chicken legs by 50% ;). since the whole story comes out of russian folklore, it is sound to asume that it looks very much like russian "datchas" (sp?) - simple, one-room wooden house. i'm not sure, but i thnik that baba yaga also had chicken legs...

Oh GAWD Ron, no one is saying you cannot re-distribute cr2 characters - read it!! What you can NOT do is include in those cr2's spawned morphs that come from the non LE versions. So if you use a regular model spin your dials to create your recipe and then move that spawned morph (that you have renamed) to an LE model it is a violation of the distribution rights. You have in essence only moved the morphs from one cr2 to another. Why are you having trouble understanding that the issue is that the morphs were spawned from a cr2 that you are not allowed to distribut morphs from - in any form... If you still don't get this, only DAZ can explain it - and at this point I doubt you will get it. There is no version 1 or 2 of Stephanie either so read the FAQ that pertains to them, they can not be distributed in the same manner as the V1 and M1 it is those two which are the exception - not the rule. Every other mil figure has morphs that may NOT be distributed in ANY form. So "My Marvin character was a cr2, consisting of morphs copied onto the acceptable version of Mike. That is the one that may or may not have been acceptable, since the wording of DAZ's FAQ is murky at best." is illegal because you COPIED the morphs at all! As for your comment about making an informed comment I'm going to do something rare for me Ron - and tell you what I'm thinking. You are a fraggin' idiot! (yes violates TOS so report me - but you distributing copyright material of DAZ also violates the TOS) Unlike those who look down their sharp little noses and patronise others when they don't know what they are doing half the time, I DO know something about copyright laws. I was a law student for corporate law who left law school due to a medical emergency in regards to my pregnancy. I stayed out because I had to take care of my father. I am NOT a lwayer, but I do keep up on it, I would never make an "uninformed" comment in regards to copyright distribution. Unlike you I have ALWAYS had the correct information - I can read a legal document quite easily and that FAQ isn't the slightest bit vague in this instance and was created for a layman to read. If I have ever had any doubts I have called DAZ on the phone and asked (as in the case of Stef and mil kids not having s version 2) so I do know what I am taking about. Unlike you I understand that Stephanie is created from Mike's mesh and therefore her morphs can't be distributed. I understand that the millenium kids are created from vickie's mesh and therefore their morphs can't be distributed. But we all know that only Ronknights knows all and sees all, so if we write it in crayon for you in big block letters will you understand it then?? Frankly I think you do understand it, no one could possibly be this stupid, and you simply enjoy trying to make others look stupid because of a warped belief that it makes you look smarter - tends to backfire.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

wait! I though baba yaga's hut had 2 legs??

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

So then what the hell are the LE version cr2's for?! Frankly, I'm not the only one who's been confused by the way DAZ has presented all this stuff. It appears you're just having a temper tantrum. I'll be the first to admit I don't know it all, but then I can't learn if someone isn't able or willing to explain what I don't understand.

Daz has not said they wouldn't give permission if asked. Why is it such a hard thing to ask if your "whatever" is OK to distribute? Of course, if some of you did that DAZ might be completly flooded with a hellish amount of paperwork...

As a musician, I can't copyright a chord progression - such as C-Am-F-G7. There are a ton of songs that use that progression. The arrangements, however, are different and copyrightable.

The courts said that Microsoft's "Recycle Bin" was not the same as Apples "Trash." They do exactly the same thing but are named differently and have different icons (boy, that one blew me away).

The instruments or software used to create the similar items (music or recycle bins) doesn't / didn't matter - only the final result.

Thus, one could infer that if something looks like Mike2, and functions (morphs) like Mike2 but doesn't have Mike2's exact mesh and the morphs aren't named like Mike2's, regardless of how it was created, the courts would say it isn't Mike2 and is therefore legal. In short, one could legally create clothing that "almost" fits Mike1 and makes him able to look like Mike2. I don't want to put ideas out there that would hurt Daz but, that's business. They know it. Just like Apple, they're trying to maintain the ability to feed their families.

Chad seems reasonable. It obviously wouldn't do him/Daz any good to go on a witch hunt and sue everyone who's been creating stuff for the last 4 months. I would expect that they would be willing to work out a deal with all of you model creators that indemnifies you from legal action for what's been done in the past.

I'd bet even now he's stressing out about this much like many of you. I know what it's like to have your wife say, "we gotta go NOW!" while you're in the midst of a work-related crisis.

I'm taking the rest of the day off from this thread. I'll wait to hear from Chad.

And desperately try not to quote Tom Greene in the movie Charlies' Angels.

"Is it the Chad?"

Dang. I just couldn't do it. ;-)

Well, maybe Monday I can quote Drew Barrymore from the same movie,

"The Chad was great!"

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

Well, As Brazilian fans blare thier horns in Germany... :) I've got to say that so far it's been ineresting. I think the DAZ post at the top of this thread is an attempt to sugar coat a bitter pill, it's far easier, (and for more private) to speak to people one at a time, which gives you room for maneuver, than it is to put it all down in black and white, in a language that people who aren't copyright lawyers can understand. But to be fair to them, given the nature of thier customers, and the fact that in places like renderosity, etc. Said customers like to talk.... I don't think they have much choice but to symbolicaly open thier arms wide, hunch thier shoulders and say "Guys, you can trust us, we're just trying to make little profit, is that so wrong?" Personally I have no problem with profit. I'm never going sell anything, and I'm probably never going to create anything that anyone wants. But as a buyer, and downloader, the more stuff there is to choose from, the more I like it. If the outcome of all of this is that there is less stuff of a higher quality, then I for one won't be pleased. Less is not more, less is less. Why do women have 20+ pairs of shoes when you can only wear one? Because they like pretty things, and it's always nice to have a choice. To have shoes that go with your dress, or catsuit :) If all you've got is one outfit, well... later jb

Ron not having a temper tantrum - but what do you expect when you refuse to see it and then accuse others of making uninformed comments?? You childishly refuse to read ALL of the FAQ, picking and choosing then calling it vague. The LE versions of the cr2s are to encourage people to create their own characters - YES, but to do so using their OWN morphs or those morphs that are allowed for this (example I gave above was that I bought Travelers MorphWorld Cd that allows the creation of a commercial or free character as well as the use of magnets) The LE versions are NOT available so that you simply move non-distributable morphs and rename them.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Again, you don't take the time to know what I have or have not done. I've read the FAQ's countless times and asked questions about them countless times. And I do NOT just move morphs and rename them. I make my own combination or recipe of those morphs and then distribute them. There is a big difference. DAZ didn't create the character that I made by twisting those dials. I did.

Attached Link: http://www.sunbirds.com/lacquer/box/250270

lsm: mea culpa! the hut had indeed two legs (at least in above source). but i could *swear* that in the book i once read it had only one... hmph... getting old...

Attached Link: http://www.mythinglinks.org/BabaYaga.html

heh, i knew it! only one, only one!!! :))) ::: chuckling and running away towards the hills :::

LadySilverMage, Your points are correct, but my issue is with the idea that I can not make morphs for items so that they will fit Vicki 2, Mike 2, etc. Contrary to what someone wrote above, I want to morph some available clothing items to fit Vicki 2, et. al. and release the morphs for free. I want to take outfits that are currently available, some at the Marketplace (and I have NO ties to any vendors except for respect for their products) and some in Free Stuff, and use the Tailor (and tweak in Rhino) so that they are useable with the upgraded models. By Daz's current statement, I can not do that. I am not redistributing a morph from Vicki 2 to be plugged in to Vicki 1. I am redistributing a morph created from a different mesh to allow that mesh to fit Vicki 2. Money has nothing to do with my concerns. Having useable products for my Vicki 2, Mike 2, Stephanie, and Aiko top my list of concerns. I'm sorry if trying to make Daz's products more valuable by expanding the clothing choices for them (for free) is a bad thing. Daz's current statement opens a huge can of worms. Over at PoserPros they've stated that a catsuit can not be morphed to fit Michael 2 as that would eliminate the need to have Michael 2 - Michael 1 could look like he was Michael 2. (I guess all the face morphs in Michael 2 aren't worth anything.) You can release pants that would fit Michael 2 - if it isn't seen as competing with a Daz product. (Daz's own words.) You can release a long sleeved shirt that would fit Michael 2 - if it isn't seen as competing with a Daz product. Now, what happens if you release a shirt and pants set - assuming Daz doesn't declare your clothes as competing with their clothing pack? Put the shirt and pants together and the entire body is covered just as if Michael was wearing the cat suit. Now you have the same issue as the cat suit. It's an ugly situation, and the personal fights flaring up between a few people here is making things worse. (I'm not casting blame not directing this statement at anyone in particular, just observing the usual problem of personality clashes gets exacerbated in a sticky problem like this.) Hopefully Daz will read all the concerns, look at the ramifications of their current statements, and come up with something workable. As it is, their stated interpretation of their EULA can really screw over both merchants and freestuff providers on the very products Daz is trying to sell - V2, etc.

people, why don't you all cool a bit, huh? there have been far more superior textures by other vendors for vicky and mike, and though they seriuosly compete with daz' stuff, they never complained. so, as i read chad's message way, way, way up above, if you want to distribute something, ask them, ok? :)

Gah, I'm personally getting tired of the LSM / ronknights -argument. Ron, you are wrong. LadySilverMage is right. You can NOT use ANY of the Michael2 morphs and then transfer them to a redistributable .cr2. No matter how unique your combination is, it uses the Michael 2 morphs and redistributing them IS NOT LEGAL. Even if you used every freaking dial in the M2 body and then combined it, you are NOT allowed to transfer the combination to a Mike1 cr2 and then share it. No, no and one more time NO. Now can we please end this?

Bucket's full again. That's OK Little Dragon, I've got it this time. * walks up, dumps bucket of chum overboard, stirs vigorously *

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Staying in the loop ;-)

Well maybe that really wasn't made clear with all the legaleze. Someone can say that I'm too stupid to understand legaleze, but when it comes down to it Plain English is always best. Right now I'm trying to figure out just where there is a good alternative source of Morphs. I went to Morphworld, and looked at their CD contents. All you get for Mike is face morphs. So LadySilverMage maybe you don't create Mike characters? If you do, then maybe Traveler has another morph cd that isn't advertised? It also appears the Victoria morphs are nowhere near as comprehensive as Vicky 2's morphs. So I really wonder what can be created with this MorphWorld CD?! *** "Daz Michael: 35 Face Morphs" "Daz Victoria:128 Face Morphs - 40 Body Morphs"

lol come to my house and hand me a 'cease and disist order'. I'll happily see you in court. If I messed with clothes, this'd be my response..but since I hate making clothes..Im in that unaffected group right now. but make no mistake, if I make a shirt for vicky, mike, stephanie, the kids or whomever...you can hide and watch me post it. I fully understand what DAZ is saying, or attempting to say..but it doesnt hold water. so, now who had the popcorn? BT

Dear lord!!
i just hope that no one decides that selling my custom BVH files
( which are basically animated versions of mike&vickies
internal bones rigs ),

are an illegal distribution the characters heirarchy structure

:-(

My website

YouTube Channel

Tagging this so I know where I stopped reading.

tag! your it!!! hehehe, just getting ebot turned on for this thread too

I can leave for a while. And when I come back. You all are having the same discussions you had three years ago. Nobody has done anything here that they haven't already done several times over the past three years or so. Yet you all react with shock, as if it's never happened before. Backstabbing, questionable business practices, aliances that crumble, gossip, political maneuvering. Year after bloody freakin' year. If DAZ was making a nice profit. They wouldn't care what was being passed around. An easy way to learn the financial status of a business is to measure it's policies. A successful business doesn't need many polices. Policies are created BECAUSE of problems. Whether the folks at PoserPros "sold out" or not doesn't really matter. The facts are: DAZ sucks at e-commerce. Their store and servers are crap! They ALWAYS have problems with it because they don't know what they are doing..... Not clue one. They are 3DModelers....not "IT" people. Russell IS good at it. He knows his stuff. He IS an "IT" guy. DAZ shoud not only use PoserPros as a side market place. But they should also hand over the existing store to them as well. And stick to what they do best.... Making good 3D models. Although it would probably take a little time to get used to a DAZ store actually functions properly over the weekend. ;-) ScottA

lol eowyn I wasn't actually going to "say" another word on the subject. Ironbear had popcorn somewhere looks around I'm not commenting on the DAZ thing in regards to approximate morphs As for the MW CD there are 35 michael morphs and 38 musclebound michael morphs used in combination one should be able to create interesting characters. Furthermore there are numerous magnet options and one could always create your own.. PoserPros, now it is owned by DAZ they bought a bulletin board that is phpbb2 - now they have their forums - that is exactly what it is now - DAZ forums, so the previous owners of the forums really don't matter now do they? However I do think that having DAZ forums is a good thing. Baba Yagas hut- I'd swear it had 2 legs in the game.... masybe it had a leg amputated??

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

OOOOPs, it appears some folks have not read the DAZ FAQ fully. It basically says you can distribute Mike 2 & Vicky 2 morphs in this manner: "3) Custom Morphs based on Victoria 2.0/Michael 2.0 Morph Combos: If you want to create a custom morph using one or more of Victoria 2.0's or Michael 2.0's morphs as a starting point, you can do this by creating two seperate distributable files - a Pz2 pose file with dial settings for Victoria 2.0/Michael 2.0 morphs, and a vertex-only Obj with only your custom morph....." (snipped for brevity) So you see, I'm not so dumb after all. I was just doing it the wrong way. And I'll probably just work with MOR files instead. Tee hee. Now who is the dummy? ScottA, I wasn't here 3 years ago.

Hiyas Scott! How are things going? Thanks for the kind words of support. The Poser community sure is an interesting place, ain't it? :) How many times has the sky fallen now? "PoserPros, now it is owned by DAZ they bought a bulletin board that is phpbb2" They didn't buy the phpBB software. We all know that phpBB is a freely available forum software product. However, I have and continue to make many modification to it to support the growing website. I maintain my modifications in my CVS software version control repository, so that I can still upgrade the base phpBB code as they release new versions and reapply my changes easily. Then there's all the "new code" that no one outside of staff has seen before. :) That is 100% my code ... or was. :) "so the previous owners of the forums really don't matter now do they?" Wow, that was pretty harsh. We don't matter? I'm sure you didn't mean it the way it sounds. :) Hmmmm ... we still run the place. Does that matter? ;)

Ron, DAZ has not said you can't make characters with the M/V2 morphs. Just that you cannot in any way distribute a cr2 with those morphs, or any combination of those morphs spawned into a new morph, or any morph that started with one of those morphs and has your own magnet/other program morph added and spawned. They have spelled out how you CAN distribute the characters using pose files to carry any of the M/V2 info and transferring morphs you actually made yourself to a LE cr2.

Mostly just needed to bookmark my place. === "So you see, I'm not so dumb after all. I was just doing it the wrong way." That's what people have been trying to tell you Ron. Nobody thinks you did anything bad on purpose. Lots of people have made similar mistakes with the figure morphs because it can be confusing. Take a deep breath when these things happen and try to realize that people aren't attacking you, they are just trying to help you know when you made a mistake and steer you into the right way to do it.

Cross-posted here, Ron. LSM never said you couldn't distribute your morphs either. Just that you were doing it the wrong way.

Wasn't meant to be harsh russ, only a statement that all the hoopla now brewing over the change of PP is irrelevant, if people like or dislike you and mehndi that is irrelevant now for PP. It doesn't matter in that aspect that as employees of DAZ you answer to them, so anyone's issues in respect to what PP was before or what the apparant "plans" for the site were are now irrelevant. You "manage" it for DAZ that is a big difference so it really should make all the uproar irrelevant. phpbb2, I do admittedly find it ridiculous. I do understand about buying a ready made forum of the type that PP is - tutorials and such. Just find the phpbb2 thing a bit odd for a corporation. Ron, I said that, see post #12 that if you included those morphs they had to be added as a pose file, so now who looks stupid? Instead of always trying to tear everything apart to prove that you are right (or righteous) try reading what people post to you. Often times they start out trying to be helpful until they bounce off your attitude of all-knowing pastronisation.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

This is not an attack?! LadySilvermage: "You are a fraggin' idiot! (yes violates TOS so report me - but you distributing copyright material of DAZ also violates the TOS)" This is not an attack?! "But we all know that only Ronknights knows all and sees all, so if we write it in crayon for you in big block letters will you understand it then?? Frankly I think you do understand it, no one could possibly be this stupid, and you simply enjoy trying to make others look stupid because of a warped belief that it makes you look smarter - tends to backfire." *** This is wrong. The morphs can be redistributed, in the proper format: "You have in essence only moved the morphs from one cr2 to another. Why are you having trouble understanding that the issue is that the morphs were spawned from a cr2 that you are not allowed to distribut morphs from - in any form..." I just love getting blasted by someone who forgets her manners, and then having someone deny that I was blasted.

LadySilvermage: "Instead of always trying to tear everything apart to prove that you are right (or righteous) try reading what people post to you. Often times they start out trying to be helpful until they bounce off your attitude of all-knowing pastronisation." You're talking "out of your backside," and frankly I've had enough of your crap. I am tired of wasting all my time and energy putting together stuff to give away just so some cranky person like yourself can kick me in the balls. You don't what what the hell you're talking about. If I was such a negative person, I wouldn't even have been involved in this or other similar threads. But these threads are about my concerns, and the concerns of others over work we have done with Tailor that we are giving way. If you can't be civil to me, then why don't you just ignore me. Or go sit in the corner on a "timeout," till you can learn to behave. And take Carolly with you.

Bucket's full again. That's OK Little Dragon, I've got it this time. * walks up, dumps bucket of chum overboard, stirs vigorously *

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

waves up the thread Here you go, LSM. Popcorn, beer or something stronger? eyes her criticially And one bottle of industrial strength Tylenol for a chaser, on the house. ;] Ko... ", but then they go on to state you can't make your own mesh and wrap it round the figure, which really defeats the purpose of owning the figures or phil's CD totally." They may be able to state that, and they can state it all they wish. I just now got back, and I haven't checked to see if they've added any new statements while I was asleep... on their previous release, they didn't quite state that. Irrelevant. They can state whatever they wish. Some of those statements won't be enforceable. What they ARE counting on is that no one will want to challenge them on it and risk a court fight - a court fight that Daz won't care for on a non-enforceable policy. Eula Revisions: A EULA is a contract. You are bound by agreement to the EULA you SIGNED AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE, and to the policies that were in force at that time of purchase on the item you purchased. And if those policies are not stated in the EULA you agreed to, you are NOT signatory to it. THAT is contract law. Do some research, jeeze. Changing a eula or any other contract and then notifying previous purchasers they're bound to an agreement they were not signatory doesn't work. It would be like me contracting to do a freelance job for you for $1500, and then six months later revising MY copy of the contract and informing you that you now owe me $2500 additional. A judge would laugh me out of court. And maybe slap a contempt charge on me if I refused to accept his judgement on it. You are bound by the contract that was in force at the time of purchase that you accepted. And under current practice, acceptance of a EULA is equivalent to being signatory to that EULA, and that EULA only. [As a side note, the entire concept of EULA's in general as being a binding contract if you cannot read them before agreement is under some legal fire.] If ANY company tries to tell you otherwise, you are in your legal rights to acquire a lawyer and challenge them on it. And probably to bring suit for unfair trade practices, depending on the laws of your state and the pertinent federal statutes. "Certain high quality places heavily restrict who can market what where, it is how they stay high quality and keep their edge." No, that's market protectionism. Just as your Merchant's Guild was ill disguised market protectionism. That's why it blew up in your face. This is the same thing with a different bow and ribbon. And sorry - Daz isn't the be all and end all of quality kiddo. I've pruchased Daz items, I've had Daz items purchased for me as gifts, and I've downlaoded every weekly freebie they've ever put out. On their own inhouse items, they are a median end constructor of poser items. They hold their brokered artists to higher standards than they do their inhouse products. I've purchased as good or better quality items at RDNA, Renderosity, and the 3Dc, and I've downloaded better items from Freebies. Kozaburo makes better hair for free than a lot of brokered stuff. The "higher standard of quality" crap is arrogant bullshit. Maybe three years ago, when the state of the art wasn't where it is now - but not today. What Daz offers to merchants is fucking PRESTIGE, pure and simple. It offers the "I sell at Daz, aren't I cool!" label. ;] "Sounds like you have become nothing but a spokeperson for DAZ." Becoming, Kattman? Heh - where ya been the past three years? grin Now. I truly fucking detest seeing some of this blow up. Chad Smith is one of the nicest men I've ever corresponded with. He's never been anything but polite to me. But I hope he'll understand if I'm not able to let some of the arrant nonsense running rampant here slide, even if he finds my points of view offensive. Then again, I have the feeling that the guy I've corresponded with might just find the rampant Daz worship as incomprehensible as some of the rest of us do - if he's running a business, I hop that he at least has a realistic appraisal of their companies products and their relative merits. Decent goods at relatively decent prices, yes. Shining examples of the epitomy of poser quality? Heh.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I'm going to interject here in a different vein then I have. The fact that PoserPros is now owned by DAZ doesn't make a difference. So a few poser fans put up a site that became popular and usefull. It took a lot of time and they asked for nothing in return, well almost nothing. They were given a chance to get paid for something they were doing anyway and took it. Who wouldn't accept this? I'm happy for them in this regard. Secondly, If I was going to trade the actual morphs from Mike2 I would agree I am totally in the wrong. This is thier geometry and NEEDS to be protected. Now for my bitch. If I make a clothing item that has either geometry without a morph or can be morphed to 'fit' mike in any of his morphed forms I WILL be in copyright infrigment with thier current stance. It doesn't matter if they will enforce it or not, I just don't like the idea that my own geometry is now considered thier property becuase it fits one of thier character permutations. Saying it only matters if the item covers the entire body doesn't cut it. I could make a pants and a shirt, neither cover the entire body on it's own but together it will and gives the same exact result as a full body covering. I know this won't hold up in court but I can't even afford to test that out if they decide to try. I;d be innocent but homeless anyway, effectivly taking me out of the market and in the end they win by defualt. That is why I will fight this all the way. I am really looking forward to tomorrow to see what they say and I am only going to read the very next statement. We have had three so far and they are all double speak because of the ramifications. If they don't back down, that is thier right but I will boycott then 100%, and that regretfully includes PoserPros. If they back off and make it only illegal to use tailor to approximate the geometry from a clothing item so that they can apply it to the figure then I will support that. This changes the figure itself into Mike2 (if it was Mike to begin with), but to say I can't make a clothing item that makes him look like something he isn't I won't go for due to the far reaching results of this. It essentially says I can only make clothing for the standard mike and none of my clothing will ever fit mike2, even if it is just a belt.

Quit beating around the bush IB. ;-)

Ya gotta watch that, quixote. When you chum, you get sharks. ;] And wolves.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Hey I stand by those comments, why? Because I wasn't attacking you but trying to be helpful at first. You are the one who said "Now that you have the correct facts, maybe you care to make an informed comment?" I was not the one who was uninformed and though I explained it you several different ways you refused to read the entire FAQ for yourself. Though others explained it you refused to acknowledge it. Nowhere did I talk "out of my backside" that would imply I didn't know what I was talking about - but I read the FAQ and talked to DAZ so I did know. Geesh get your analogies straight would you? As you quoted, people DO try to answer your questions and help you, just because you don't like the answers doesn't mean we are childish or mean to you. If I wqs so mean to you Ron I wouldn't have bothered responding to your emails recently and explaining why hair flys off your characters now would I? But we are all only human and when someone who doe not know what they are talking about patronises those who do and try to help they are bound to get frustrated. If you don't understand that then you understand nothing abougt human nature - unless (and I suspect this s more the truth) you simply enjoy pushing buttons. I remember a child psychology book about children who want to be abused, it was basically about how some personalities enjoy pushing and pushing and pushing so they can make a parent/person lose control because then they have all of the control. After that they get to whine and play the martyr and thereby garner more control through guilt. This is something you do over and over again. Think about it Ron, I have never had a problem with you, I have im'ed with you and emailed you. Never have I treated you with any animosity. So does it not seem off to you that I would? Do you not think that perhaps you push people away with your taunts and your patronising? Probably not because I think that in your world you are the martyr and everyone else is out to get you, why would anyone want to do that? And to top it all off you still think the morphs can be spawned and moved and yet your own post points out that those m2 (etc.) morphs can only be included in a pose file... good day ron

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

"OK so you cant distribute the morph, BUT a person can go to Daz and buy the tailor themselves sound of cash register " Future, they may be able to say that all they want to. But there may not be a damned thing that can be done on it except shake a finger and say "Bad merchant, no donut". Tailor doesn't copy morphs. It makes an approprimation of a morph. And not always a perfect one. If the geometry that the morph is being approximated in is different, and it's yours... it is frigging yours. It is NO different that morphing clothing to a body shape in a modeler, and someone can jump up and down all they wish, but skinning a shape in a nurbs modeler isn't illegal. What they did say was that they were frowning on a specific instance - involing Mike and Vicki2 and the catsuit. All items of which are their morphs and their geoetry and their cr2's, so their property. That can be restricted. If you make your own bodysuit, your mesh, and morph it to fit - it is YOURS. No one, including I, have any say on what you do with it.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

grins at ScottA Heya Scott - long time. ;] Ya realy think I shoul quit repressing my true feelings and mealy mouthing around? ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Thanks IB - I need that... IB > my dream man, understand everything and comes equipped.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

AOL @ Ironbear.... :) Also part marker. Getting wearing ploughing through this.

Now I'm going to chum again

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Oooh. Be still my beating heart. ;] Too bad she's married. grin

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Thank you, IB....I have been basically peeping the same thing about contract law that you Roared out to the crowd. I hope they hear you better than they heard me. I sure hope folks just don't go along and believe the crap that was spouted in that faq#49. Kattman....NO YOU WON'T. The agreement, at the time of purchase of the m2 figures was NO DISTRIBUTION OF ANY CR2'S OR PARTS/DERIVATIVES, THEREOF. JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE TRYING TO CONVINCE THE GENERAL POSER PUBLIC THAT THEY NOW "OWN" THE RIGHTS TO ANY OF OUR ORIGINAL MESHES...MADE INDEPENDENTLY FOR THE M2 CHARACTERS...WHO MAY BE MORPHED IN A CERTAIN WAY IS CRAP....PURE AND SIMPLE....IT CANNOT BE LEGALLY DONE. So many people seem just to have recently fallen off the turnip truck. Is it miller time, yet?

Wow...so many posts, as I was typing out my response to IB...One more little note....AND, yes....I worked for an appellate attorney for nine years....went back to school and became a certified paralegal...that and a degree in fine and applied art will keep dinner on the table. What daz is doing....with their "new stance" is actually trying to perpetrate a fraud on their consumers. I would like to see them address THAT.

(I've been around since the first site :P ) Just marking place of last read.........

"If they back off and make it only illegal to use tailor to approximate the geometry from a clothing item so that they can apply it to the figure then I will support that. " Sorry Katt. Your choice, but I won't. That's effectively claiming the shape of a human figure is owned by them wether it contains any of their geometry or actual morphs or not, and that to the best of my knowledge is not legal. At the very best, in regards to 3D modeling, it is legally ambiguous. If they limit it to distribution of only cr2's, morphs, geometry and items they DO own, yeah, I'll support that. Otherwise.. claiming that they own items and rights to those items that were modeled and morphed by someone else? No way. My work is fucking mine. Your work is yours. Their work is theirs. I'll go back to supporting Posette, Dork and origional figures like Natalia and Dina ONLY before I'll let anyone claim that something I make is theirs. As far as non clothing items... I can smart prop a sword or peice of armor to posette as easily as I can to Vicki. Or leave it unparented and the customer can prop it to the figure of their choice. And I'm going to bet real money that a lot of modelers will feel the same way I do.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

OK, I'm back after a little sleep ;) Some people have accused me of fanning the flames, but I only do it to clear the SMOKE which is obscuring the real issues. My intent is not malicious and I regret that some have taken it that way. I do however, wish to separate the speculation and conjecture from the factual, and that apparently rubs some people the wrong way. I also acknowledge that there is more than one way to look at and interpret the situation, and that these thoughts are from my own perspective (which is that of a potential merchant who is NOT affiliated with DAZ). As there are clearly several perspectives to this issue. It would benefit us all if everyone would post their honest DAZ affiliations and/or merchant status so that we may understand which perspective they are addressing. But since obscurity is the aim of at least one group, I don't think that will happen. Here are the issues as I see them: 1) DAZ has made a statement and a follow-up clarification that APPEARS to restrict the distribution (free and retail) of any clothing item that "fits" [my term - derived after you weed out the hyperbole] either the Michael2 or Victoria2 MORPHED figures - REGARDLES of the method used to create them. 2) DAZ has SUGGESTED [perhaps implied is a better term] that their EXCLUSIVE merchants may be exempt from this restriction. 3) Copyright per se is NOT an issue, and never was part of this issue. This is an issue of DAZ's policies as contained in their EULA, TOS and FAQ. Unfortunately, it serves their purpose to make us THINK this is a copyright issue because most of us are honorable and respectful of such rights. However they have been VERY careful in their statements to minimize use of the term "copyright" and instead use the general term "RIGHTS", which has no legal meaning whatsoever. But I DO acknowledge that DAZ DOES have some rights which extend beyond copyrights, so the REAL ISSUE is just how far those rights extend. 4) Woefully missing from all the threads and posts I have read is any acknowledgement of the RIGHTS of others aside from DAZ. For example, what about us consumers and our CONSUMER RIGHTS - or - us ARTISTS and our FAIR USE RIGHTS, - or - us MERCHANTS and our FREE ENTERPRISE RIGHTS? Those of you who believe every word that comes from DAZ as gospel, have voluntarily RELINQUISHED all the above rights that you are entitled to. But that is OK because it's your choice to do so. But what you CAN NOT DO is tell me that I or anybody else must also relinquish OUR rights. 5) The infringement example cited by DAZ is a superficial ploy which suggests that you can create a fully functional Michael2 figure from a set of morphs contained in a BODYSUIT simply by pushing a button. Those of you who bought into this misrepresentation and jumped on their bandwagon saying, "Gee, I see their point" have just been deluded, or you don't know enough about Poser to know this simply cannot be done with any credible result. Think I'm blowing smoke? I'll offer $500.00 cash to anyone who can deliver to me within 24 hours a cr2 for a fully functional Michael2 that is derived solely from Michael1 and a bodysuit - ANY bodysuit, including DAZ's own which contains ALL the body morphs. LOL! DO you really believe that Michael2 sales are threatened by morphed clothing which ENHANCES Michael2? 6) DAZ is a commercial BUSINESS we are dealing with, so we should not expect or rely on them to protect our rights. In the same vein, we should NOT chastize them for making BUSINESS DECISIONS, so no matter what you wish to "infer" from any of my posts, I do NOT hold DAZ in contempt for anything they have done - it's just business! I DO hold in contempt any individual who relinquishes his/her rights and then insists that I do the same. There is a general rule in business which goes something like "If you can get away with it, do it, it's good business" - this philosophy has served Microsoft very well. So let's stop all the talk about "right versus wrong" or "legal versus illegal" because none of that even enters into the equation. ITS JUST BUSINESS. Their business to profit and protect their interests - OUR BUSINESS to derive value and protect our own interests. THOSE ARE THE ISSUES as I see them - anything else is smoke and mirrors! A few final note to clarify earlier posts: Mehndi (message 68): I'm sorry for my poor choice of words, it was late, and I was hasty. I used the term "second-rank" NOT "second-rate" as you read it, and I was referring to a tiered system of marketing where specialty items and/or special value items are located in a different area of a store, and I derived this impression from one of your own posts wherein you wrote something like "items that may not otherwise meet DAZ's criteria". I also regret that you so easily wish to dismiss everything I have said just because I attempted a bit of levity at the end of a long day. Perhaps it was a late night for you too ;-) fishnose (message 81): You are confusing two basic issues by suggesting that CONSUMER practices and standards and PROFESSINAL practices and standards are are the same. They are NOT. The Poser community may have started as a professional community of elite commercial developers and producers, but it certainly isn't that today. Furthermore, your use of Microsoft as an example for DAZ to follow, is inappropriate. In fact there is a parallel community within Microsoft that is very similar to the Poser community. It is based on MS Flight Simulator and MS Train Simulator, and in THOSE communities Microsoft freely allows usage and redistribution of derived textures and meshes based on the 70% rule. So do many other communities built around games and other software. DAZ is EXCLUSIVELY the most restrictive such community on the internet by imposing not only a 100% rule, but now they are pushing for the 110% rule which extends their "rights" to include not only identical, but "similar" by their definition. Finally, all I might ask or expect of anybody is a reasonable interpretion of the facts. Without malice, exaggeration or prejudice, but with an open mind which can at least acknowledge that there are sereral different sides to this issue, but each has a right to exist. Best wishes to all. I wish DAZ every success in business, as they are vital to this community. I will, nonetheless, continue to argue for my own rights and for the rights of all those who are in a similar position.

Well said, Ronstuff.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

bookmark :)

LadySilverMage, you assumed that I had not read the FAQ. (I had, numerous times.) You assumed you knew more about my Free Stuff characters than I did. You came at me with a negative, combative attitude, and I corrected your misconceptions. Believe me I waited till you'd insulted me a few times before I stepped up my own responses. You admit to having some legal background, therefore you could understand the FAQ and DAZ's recent comments. You couldn't understand that others might have problems with comprehending unnecessary legaleze. You chose to insult me, and others who have the same difficulty. I think that's pretty darned narrow-minded of you. You can keep the rest of your psycho-babble. Believe me, I'm familiar with it all. I've "been there, done that," "lived to tell about it." It's one of the "benefits" of having a father and wife who work in the field. And yes I had plenty of reasons for making that area my own independent field of study. Believe me, your unprofessional assessment is totally off-base. And I don't care if you like the metaphors, comparisons, whatever. Just accept the simple fact that many people, including myself, are and were confused by DAZ's policies. Many of us are angry at what seems a betrayal at this time. And yes, many of us are hoping DAZ will step in tomorrow and make us all feel safe and secure. I'd be happy if it ended that way.

ROFLMAO, Ron you made it perfectly clear how you did your characters - I had no need to assume anything! You also implied that you had previously done your homework. BTW - what you did with the morphs and the questions it raised were actually seperate from DAZ implying ownership of approximated morphs. I am sure that you you are familiar with psycho babble nd that you have "been there"

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

sigh Maybe someday...

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

Quote; Eula Revisions: A EULA is a contract. You are bound by agreement to the EULA you SIGNED AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE, and to the policies that were in force at that time of purchase on the item you purchased. And if those policies are not stated in the EULA you agreed to, you are NOT signatory to it. That is an absolutely indesputable fact provided that the EULA doesn't contain unenforcable provisions in which case it's all hogwash. Someone else said that DAZ does not have the power to arbitrarily create new copyright law. That too is an absolutely indesputable fact. The words "prohibit" and "ban" are being used in a very ignorant fashion here. DAZ cannot prohibit or ban anything. ronknights you are NOT wrong. Mark

always being one to piss in the face of self-proclaimed authority, this debacle has inspired me to again try to learn modelling well in order that I may, in the deep, dark privacy of my home, create contraband morphs and smuggle them out of state to be distributed through a vast, intertwining network of coyotes, to crazed, frothy-mouthed Mike and Vicky 1 users worldwide.

time for bed :)

lmao

LadySilverMage, I had several characters already created for about a year. They were my Marlin Fingle characters. Those characters had been created to eliminate Crosstalk with any Millennium figures. The only thing that kept me from releasing those figures was the difficulty in learning exactly how DAZ wanted things done. Believe me I've tried and tried to get translations for that information. Then, after all those months, I release yet another character who had been fixed to eliminate Crosstalk. He was in a cr2. Yes, according to recent revelations, that one was prepared and shared incorrectly. My next character was a Millennium Girl, and she began life as a cr2. I was informed of a name conflict, and at about that time I had finally discovered how to create a MOR pose file. I pulled that Millennium Girl, changed her name and substituted the MOR file for the cr2. So I was "half wrong," there, but I fixed the problem. I created another figure, "my answer" to big breasted super heroines. She was a MOR pose file, not a cr2 file. Do you see the trend, toward the "acceptable means of sharing?!" Each of these figures had Tailored clothing. I had waited 4 months to be sure there were no objections, legal or otherwise, from DAZ or others, In fact I had even contacted Serge for permission to Tailor his Millennium Girls clothing packs. He granted permission. After close to a year, I had finally released some free characters, and planned to release more. Then DAZ came with their sneaky announcement. Most of Renderosity wasn't aware of the "Tailor Proclamation" till I went to PoserPros and brought back the news. I damned well could have had my characters out close to a year ago, if I'd been able to understand DAZ's FAQ, or get someone to translate. I damned well would not have released Tailored clothing if DAZ had been clear on their stance from the start. Frankly I'm damned angry and tired. You have no just cause to harass me. No one does. But that doesn't stop you from acting out. *** In the past week I've put my own needs aside to create two tutorials that people requested. I then released my characters. It just isn't worth the effort any more. As it stands right now, my recent characters will not be revived at least until I am sure how it can be done without risking legal action. Even then I'll damned well think about it for awhile. I'm fighting a cold right now, and I'm lucky to keep myself sitting upright on this chair, let alone thinking clearly or feeling better. It's time to stop wasting that physical and emotional energy. I really debated about whether I should release the last few tutorials and freebies since every freebie usually was followed immediately by someone's attacks, or some sort of other challenge from this community. Now DAZ is in the mix. I'm taking a break. I won't create anything to give to this community at least till I feel better physically. At that time I'll see if I feel like giving of myself for other reasons.

Oh, Ron... I am indeed quite disppointed in you! It took you more than a full day to wave the TOS. You usually brandish it within mere hours. ::shake head at the phenomenal unreliability of what had been as predictable as sunrise:: Poor Ron is fighting a cold! I have a bit more sympathy for another guy who is typing with a broken wrist. "... take Carolly with you." Gee, I guess you are a bit annoyed at those who see through your games. You remind me of my mother, but she was a professional martyr not some unpracticed amateur, and she was intelligent enough to use language to effect her purpose. Jo-Anne's Fabrics has a special on sackcloth... but you'll have to gather the ashes yourself. Think you can do that, or should we draw you a map of a fireplace... grating and all? Carolly

I own the color "red" bookmark :P BT

What, are we staking out primary colors this week? Ko - I'm trademarking "Blue". And all varaints and derivatives thereof.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I'll take green, aways my favourite :)

Hey, I have a plan to fix everything. Why doesn't the Poser community get together and create PUBLIC DOMAIN, high quality character meshes that rival Mike and Vicky? Let's call them "LINUS" and "LUCY," because thse two characters should be like "Linux," i.e. open for anybody to play with and improve upon for free. Daz's importance to the Poser community boils down to two things: Mike and Vicky. They own them and so they can dictate the rules. But surely some of the talented Poser pros who frequent this place can get together and come up with something equally as good, if not better. And if they donate these two new characters to the Poser world, then DAZ won't have such a stranglehold over all of us and we can all go back to having fun again. It's be a hell of a lot more useful than all this arguing. What do you say, talented Poser gurus? If Daz continues to own everything, think of all the money you'll be losing by not being able to peddle your wares freely. It's time to act! Form a "LINUS" and "LUCY" creation consortium. Free Poser now!!!

Sorry. I meant to type: "It'd be a hell of a lot more useful than all this arguing." And it would.

I claim the shape "round" and the color purple (please submit anything that may be approximately round or vaugely purple to me in advance and I will determine, in my sole discretion, if you may use them). Marking my spot before I go to bed :)

i claim the word claim so be carefull!!

snap I wanted green! Fine, I'll settle on purple, since pink is already taken by Mattel. :) On that note, it's bedtime.

Darnit Scifiguy! Your claim for purple came as I was typing mine. snap Okay, puce! It's mine. :)

Well that being the case, then I'm going to trademark and copyright farts. So, anyone who breaks wind pays me royalties and needs to apply to me for permission, in advance, in triplicate before doing so. Got it? Better stay away from the beans. bookmark

actually, you all are already infringing on my copyright. See, I meant red and all dirivatives. Well, hell if companies can change what their readme's mean..I can too. so since I own red...purple and pink are dirivatives. and since it appears we can also interpret a copyright to mean anything we want..then I also interpret the other colors that do not contain red as dirivatives by defining them as "the absence of red". but I have to admit...claiming the shape "round" has me at a loss on how I can claim a copyright violation out of it. lol BT

lol questor..Im on a protein diet (weight lifting), so I owe you like a million dollars from just last night...lol BT

ROTFLOL.. I expect the cheque in the post in 48 hours BT, or I'll send round the men in ill-fitting suits. :)

jjsemp, You are hitting on my idea right now. Didn't want to announce it before I got the rest of the team together but since you brought it up: The Free Market Family Team is going to be working on just this thing. We are going to start with a female and work from there. Stay tuned for further developments and an official announcment.

.

Questor: I think George Bush may be on your list as well. Those Colonoscopies have a way of whipping up the big winds. Good luck collecting. The big question, it seems to me, is: Is using another program to approximate any of the forms of V2M2 prohibited under the reverse-engineering clause? I have been giving this some thought. I have not been able to come up with an actual example where this would be the case in other fields. If anyone can think about one, please let me know. But it seems that DAZ is trying to restrict the process. Misunderstanding on my part, I'm sure. I hope they clarify. Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Kattman, your idea has some merit, in an "idealistic sense." But look at all the money we'd be throwing away if we abandoned our Millennium Characters and/or other DAZ products. It's too great a loss. Besides, hasn't this sort of thing already been tried? Isn't Eve a step in that direction?

Ajax wrote:

"Essentially what DAZ are saying is that you can't use one of their products in the process of making something that may damage sales of that product or any of their other products, unless you have their permission."

Well that's a nice concept, one that every business would like to enforce, but it can't be done.

That's the nature of competition.

As long as copyrighted datasets aren't being distributed there's no base to stand on. Orignal morph deltas belong to it's creator and can be traded/sold without DAZ' say so.

-JH.

Essentially DAZ is saying you can't produce something that damages the sale of one of their items unless you agree to sell it exclusive through DAZ. Witness Michael's Morphing Clothing pack and bodysuit which would allow Mike 1 to pretend he's Mike 2. It's sold at DAZ, but a "Tailored" bodysuit that does that same thing (even if it's free) is in violation... Unless you sell it at DAZ.

"The Free Market Family Team is going to be working on just this thing. We are going to start with a female and work from there." BUCK THE TREND! START WITH A MALE! Yes - you CAN model a willie! It's OK! ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

ROTFLMFAO @ Ironbear....

I herby declare that I own the numbers "zero" and "one". All your code are belong to me....lol Tom

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Model a Willie who can have a woody, and who has hairy balls. Model a wanda who has a vulva. You get the idea.

What about a throat? And some decent eye sockets and ear holes and a wiggly thing at the back of the throat and... and... err.. Oh sorry, wrong thread. :)

There is a variety of female models. All I need is a good male model with some normal sized hands, not girlish itsy bitsy fingers like Mike. :P

Geezus...I have such a headache now.

"What about a throat? And some decent eye sockets and ear holes and a wiggly thing at the back of the throat and... and... err.. Oh sorry, wrong thread. :) " Possibly even the wrong website, Q. Eeeeeeewwwww! ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

ROFL! Hahahaha! I'm laughing so hard that I'm crying, Q.

.

Well, after an extremely long day, primarly filled with meetings and appointments that had been scheduled long ago, we finally were able to check in on this thread. And now, literally hours later, after reading all the way through this thing, it's Tuesday.

So, I guess this is the point where I'd planned to respond. However, we need to go home and get some sleep so that I can get up in the morning, come into work, and respond to this thread, along with everything else that needs to be done tomorrow.

Good night.
Chad Smith
DAZ Productions

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12395&Form.ShowMessage=768827&Reply=769063

Before you respond here, chad, you might want to check out all the other relevant links, like this one. Cheers, Paul

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12418&Form.ShowMessage=766355&Reply=769147#51

Yeah, and this one too.

BTW, Questor- the word you're looking for is 'epiglottis'. ;]

Thank you Micheleh, I couldn't think of it. But I think I had more fun with "wiggly thing" as that grossed out Ironbear. snicker

Good morning everyone. Or perhaps I should just say hello. Its morning now, but it will likely be afternoon or evening by the time we have this message ready to post. ;)

Just in the way of introduction, this same message is being posted in multiple locations, and of necessity may appear general or may not address every individual that has contributed to this thread thus far. So, on to the issues...

1. This whole thing is not an issue specifically with The Tailor; it is an issue of morph and mesh ownership and protection.

The Tailor is a fabulous product, and DAZ does not feel it contradictory in the least to endorse both the responsible use of this product and the protection of peoples intellectual property. There have been many other tools out there for a long time that provide ways of doing similar thingstools that also can be used in ways that can be either bad or good for everyone involved.

Morph Manager, for example. This is a cool program that is valuable to the community and which DAZ fully endorses. However, there are ways (obvious, I hope) that it can be used which are specifically prohibited by the DAZ End User License Agreement, not to mention common sense. (For example, porting Michael 2 morphs over to a new .cr2 file and distributing that.) Does this mean that DAZ is against Morph Manager, or that we would only like it if we were making money from it somehow? Does this mean that when Morph Manager came out that we needed to clarify, or even change, our EULA? No, it doesnt. Morph Manager is a valuable tool, and people have seemed to understand why and how to use it without violating anyones EULA. If we had become aware at some point that they hadnt, then we would have tried to promote awareness on what is allowed and what is not.

Other examples, more analogous to the functionality of The Tailor include modeling programs, such as LightWave, Maya and Rhino, which have the ability to create derivative meshes or morphs easily. These tools are great; we have no intention not to allow and promote their use. However, if someone creates a derivative mesh from another persons product and then uses that derivative mesh to compete with the product upon which it was based, regardless of their method, then we all have a problem. If someone creates a derivative mesh from another persons product that may or may not compete with the product upon which it was based, then the owner of the original product will need to give permission for its distribution.

On the other hand, if something is not derivative of another artists work it should, by definition, be equally easy to create without using that work in the first place. This is the real issue. Does the original creator of a morph have the right to say how it can be used and what can be done with it? Yes he does. And if this market wants to challenge that then it will create a disincentive for all creators of original morphs in this community, because it wont let them exercise their right to benefit from their work and investment.

2. Entropic, concerning the issue of morph ownership, we understand that you are trying to establish that this right cant be asserted by the creators of these products. However, we were completely unaware that the Poser EULA restricts artists from being able to copyright their works created within Poser. Would you PLEASE elaborate on that for us since this potentially is a much larger issue than the transferring of morph targets with The Tailor ever could be. (You could imagine the fuster cluck that would be created if all developers were told that they have no legal way to protect their content.)

Regardless, you can rest assured that having worked in this industry for over a decade, creating and licensing models and morphs, DAZ is operating on rights that are very solid. No matter what Curious Labs stance is on protecting products created within Poser, that position has no bearing on things created in other applications outside of Poser, such as models, morph targets, U.V. work, and texture maps. The creation of these assets is governed by the EULA of the software in which they are created. Mirai, the product in which we create our models and morph targets says nothing about us not being able to copyright our original works created in that package. The same thing goes for the other 2D and 3D tools that we work with. Even if copyright were in question, we would still have coverage and protection of our original works with our own EULA.

3. Although many people have stated that using a DAZ product as a starting point to create another product which competes with any DAZ product will be a problem for DAZ, this is incorrect. Please re-read our posts and review our policies and actions over the last few years. For example, we havent allowed people to use the Michael mesh to create a Michael competitor, and we havent allowed people to use our clothing files to create a competitor for those clothes. We have, however, regularly allowed people to use Michael to create Michael clothes, even when those clothes compete directly with similar Michael clothes for sale at DAZ.

4. Contrary to opinions that the free availability of a Michael bodysuit containing all of the Michael 2 morphs could not substantially compete with the sale of Michael 2, we have evidence that it has. In fact, this recent information, in combination with some private requests for clarification from DAZ, was actually what prompted our initial post on the matter. However, we also realize that this is a very isolated case, existing largely because of the number of people out there interested in Michael 2 primarily for the ability to create muscle-bound, spandex-clad super-heros. As far as other clothing items and figures go, we are not currently aware of losing many, if any, Michael 2 sales over them. Issues such as whether a clothing item is skin tight, or whether it covers up the whole figure are not the point, but merely some of the factors we consider in our decision of what constitutes unfair competition.

And now, having alerted many people to the basic principles and potential problems associated with this issue, we hope you understand that while we have enforceable rights here, we are going to allow matching our character morphs in clothing items as we have in the past, until such a time as we feel that it is bypassing the need for the characters themselves.

5. The DAZ EULA has NOT changed in regards to the ability to protect our intellectual property from the threat of derivative competition. For example, the user may not reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, or create derivative works clause has been in every DAZ and Zygote EULA from well before we ever did any work for Poser. As some of you have pointed out, the EULA that comes with the specific product is the agreement that governs its usage. It is expected that a user read and agree to these EULAs in order to use the products. And if you dont like to take our word for what is legal or not, please archive these agreements for your own reference.

6. DAZ cannot be aware of and address every issue brought up online that may concern us (and we certainly cant do so in a timely manner). We simply cant know what everyone is doing all of the time. That being said, we absolutely wish that we would have addressed this matter publically, thoroughly, and long ago. We apologize for our tardiness, and will do what we can not to have this type of situation occur again in the future. Trust me, we dont like dealing with this any more than you do.

7. We also feel it is fairly obvious that a few extremely vocal people here have no sincere desire for us to address their concerns or answer their questions. When we have to expend DAZ resources trying to deal seriously and professionally with incendiary remarks from a few people who arent looking for feedback, but rather an opportunity for some cheap shots and a little intrigue, this makes the pink ponies very, very sad. So please, can we drop the sensationalism and scapegoating, ad homini and non sequiturs? Not to mention the conspiracy theories of how the timing of DAZ brokering The Tailor, making posts concerning the EULA and acquiring PoserPros is part of some evil plan. And for those of you who need to ask, yes, this was just coincidence.

8. Finally, let me restate that in our opinion the best way to run a successful business in this market is to create opportunities for others to add on to our work. We feel that a symbiotic relationship is possible and is best for everyone.

Patent, copyright, and license enforcement allow innovators to be rewarded for their work. Do we want to make this system more difficult in our community? Poser development is only viable when we, as a community, make it viable for those creating the workboth original work, and add-on work. If we reward those making add-ons at the expense of those making the original, we will chase many of the developers away from this community, because it will always be easier, less time-consuming and less expensive to create derivative work than it will be to create original work.

Ultimately we need to protect our investments in our developments. We are also publically representing and protecting the interests of all developers. (There are many other morph-based products out there, and were discussing a general principle in a specific way.) There are many people behind the scenes encouraging us to establish a stance that will help to protect their rights as well. For them and us, we need to hold strong. With this being said, in the interest in community peace, we are willing to suspend our stance on the distribution of these DAZ-made morphs on the bodysuit or other clothing items for our figures until the applications that are being developed to aid in the legal transfer of these files have been developed and distributed. (We have been informed, as has the public, that MartinC and Russell Cook are both currently working on such products.) Make note that we retain the right to protect these morphs, and have merely announced temporary permission to distribute these files until such time as an option is available for encrypted distribution. Additionally, we want to make it very clear that people are not allowed to use our proprietary figure model morph targets to transfer to other figure models and then distribute them to others. (For example transferring Michael 2 morphs onto Michael 1, or onto the Poser 4 male figure, or onto the Dina V figure.) Obviously, people will still have to contact the developers of non-DAZ-made morph targets for permission to use them in this manner.

Well, thanks for wading through this huge post, everyone. As difficult as this whole situation has been, we still feel that weve made progress here in promoting both The Tailor and PoserPros, which was our devious plot. (Just kidding.) But seriously, we hope that our concession in this matter will make things easier for the community. And we hope that our posts on this subject have created awareness and a better understanding of what the DAZ EULA means.

Sincerely,
Chad Smith
DAZ Productions

<<Again, I point to my most recent product (with ivyroses), Peytrov. This character comes with a CUSTOM ORIGINAL MESH bodysuit that fits the character's specific combination of morphs and FBM's, but does not, itself, morph. There are no morphs at all in the CR2 of this file. It was shaped to fit a specific body type created using M2. Is this particular product a violation? If not, good. if so, should I delete said product? >> So I can assume by the post above that Peytrov is -NOT- a violation? Coolies.

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

Thanks for taking the time to post this Chad. It's going to take a while to read and digest this properly but it appears encouraging at least. Response will no doubt follow. You might however have been better off posting this in a new thread allowing consideration for dial up users who may have problems with threads this large. However, it's here, thanks.

Chad, thanks for the response. I've been one of the more vocal people in this matter. I'm the one who finally brought the matter to the attention of the Renderosity community when you and PoserPros had not done so. Indeed I was criticized for waiting till Friday night to make the news here. It's like I have to apologize because I rarely visited PoserPros till this issue came to light! Sorry, but that's wrong. It's easy to jump to conclusions when you don't have all the facts, and when you're not kept in the "commuication loop." That's part of life. Now hopefully you've learned more about this, as have we. You and I have spoken privately and I informed you that I had removed any freebies which might be seen "at risk." That surely should indicate my desire to be a part of a suitable and ethical resolution to the matter, rather than an inclination to merely cause trouble. At this point my best contribution to the solution will be to wait for any news. Ron

"This whole thing is not an issue specifically with The Tailor; it is an issue of morph and mesh ownership and protection." Thanks, Chad. That was precisely what some very worried 3rd party clothes developers (such as myself) were afraid of. Our fear was that your very sweeping definition of an unacceptable derivative would effectively ban all 3rd party stuff that fits DAZ figures. None of us could believe that was your intention. Point 3) of your answer seems to me to be precisely the answer we've been hoping for : "We have, however, regularly allowed people to use Michael to create Michael clothes, even when those clothes compete directly with similar Michael clothes for sale at DAZ." That would be to use the figure/shape, and of course NOT the actual mesh or morphs, as I read you, Chad. Since using the figure/shape as a "mannequin" to fit new clothing on is exactly what 3rd partyers do, I will take the liberty of considering this a DAZ (informal) acceptance of using DAZ stuff as a reference, but of course not as actual raw material, when creating 3rd party stuff. Your generosity in accepting this, EVEN IF THE NEW STUFF COMPETES WITH YOURS is noted. Unnecessary, though, if 3rd partyers are guided by enlightened self-interest. Your are certainly right in pointing out that it's far easier to develop add-ons than developing the figures that are the sine qua non of the whole business. It follows logically that it is in the best interests of the 3rd partyer to avoid doing stuff that might have a negative impact (however small) on DAZ sales, and thus DAZ' desire to remain in the Poser market. I think it was Toyota's enlightened (now retired) boss who once said about selling : "We do not want to sell cars to customers. We want to establish a long-term supplier-consumer realationship to fulfil people's personal transportation needs." That's not moral high ground, that's sound, enlightened self-interest. IMHO, that is the spirit the Poser community as a whole has been operating under until now, and DAZ has been doing a lot to promote it. With Chad's above statement, I'd say we can all go back to work knowing that the spirit's still intact. And now I'll vacate the soapbox and get back to my vertex-pushing. I'm sure a lot of people were getting bored listening to my verbose worries - I know I was ;o)

Well said Thip. That certainly seems to be the spirit of this. It also means that the work of depakotez and Russel can continue un-challenged as the software becomes voluntary rather than essential. IMO that's a perfectly acceptable situation to develop in. Hopefully this huge eruption of emotion over the last few days has helped the community and Daz realise that yes, we do need to work on equal terms and consider each other. Daz have every right to protect their interests but not at the expense of the freedom of others to create UNIQUE products designed to enhance the core products of Daz itself. Perhaps though that it needs to be made clearer that Tailor is for personal use only on DAZ products and subject to license agreement on other products? That's about the only stumbling block that might re-occur. Some interesting comments in Chad's statement but I'll leave them for now as this is not the time or place to start picking on vagueries unrelated to the request and general statement. I guess this does mean that everyone can go back to doing what they do. Here's hoping that there isn't a next time.

Questor: Here Here! Thip: Your voice was the clearest of us all. Boring?...never. Sincere thanks. Chad: also my thanks. This compromise is no more no less what I expected from a company with your credentials. We may disagree a little with the interpretation of the law, but it will never be an issue with me and I don't plan to start sweating the small stuff. I've been through something like this in my own company a few years ago. I know what this sort of turmoil does to the employees and the production lines. I sympathize and wish you and all your team my very best. Again, thanks, Regards, Quixote

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Hey folks, I realized that most of this stuff is pretty much a moot point with the impending arrival of Poser 5. Yesterday's sneak preview helped clinch the feeling in my mind. We still don't know all the details or an exact date. But the reality of Poser 5 is close enough that I've decided not to waste another dime on any merchandise that we see now, or until Poser 5 is released. There is a good chance that the people who create Poser products might already have a jump start on this whole thing. They may already have new Poser 5-related stuff in the works. DAZ and CuriousLabs obviously worked together in the past, and I could see how they'd continue to do the same. I'm even speculating that DAZ's recent sale might be somehow tied in with the impending arrival of Poser 5. I think all the current Millennium-related stuff will soon go the way of Posette and Dork. I haven't touched those dear old P4 characters or their supporting stuff since I got the Millennium figures. At any rate, I'm in a position where I'm doing Poser stuff as a hobby. I'd already gathered so much stuff that I forgot half of what I have. I don't need to spend another dime on this stuff. I can easily afford to save my money for the Poser 5 upgrade. I suggest you consider doing the same. Forget about these "protection utilities," Mike 1 stealing Mike 2's morphs, etc. Save your energy and your money for Poser 5.

Actually Ron, you're wrong. The arrival of Poser 5 doesn't make this a moot point, if anything it makes it more of a point because of the nature of some of what Poser 5 allegedly is offering, and Daz's still ambiguous stance on what they define as derivative. As for the millenium couple going the way of Dork and Posette. Also highly unlikely. Dork and Posette are still used by the community, you can still download new clothes and textures for them. Same with Mike and Vic. With the morphability of those two and the array of products available and planned, they aren't dying or dead yet and won't be until a vastly superior pair are released. I know there are rumours of Mike/Vic 3.0 but I'll believe that when I see it. So, forgetting about the protection utilities isn't an option, for the same reasons that the original Objaction Mover is still in use today. Having said that I intend to save up for Poser 5 as well, but I'll wait for it to arrive in a UK store before I purchase it. No way am I going to pay the extortionate shipping costs that have been asked for Poser 4, Pro Pack and the P4 upgrade. I figure that being the case I should get it about a year after everyone else. So, Poser 4 and it's issues will be very much current for myself and a few others. :) Nevertheless, Chad's statement is reassuring and I'll take up any ambiguities in different threads that are intended to address them if I feel that I might be affected by them.

Questor, again we'll disagree, in a civil manner. I haven't had a need or desire to mess with Posette or Dork since getting Millennium figures. I got tired long ago of all the frailties of the P4 bodies twisting and breaking each time I tried to use a "conservative pose," etc. The Millennium Figures have a wealth of resources to the point where I never wish I had something for them that P4 figures have. In fact, since I got the Millennium figures, half of my collection of Poser-related CD's went into a bottom drawer where it remains unused, and uninstalled. I do believe we'll see a whole new batch of stuff in Poser 5 itself which could well eliminate the need for things like programs that duplicate or mimic a figure's morphs. It also appears we won't need to buy separate hair just to make our figures look realistic, etc. It also appears the default Poser 5 figures might be as good or better quality than the current Millennium figures. I don't see a need to buy anything more for the current version of Poser, since I long ago reached the point where I just couldn't keep up with what I already had. That's another reason I dumped my P4-related stuff.. Just too much. Poser couldn't handle all that stuff. I don't care if Poser 5 doesn't arrive for several months. I can easily just use what I have and never miss anything. The only way this current concern about morphing clothes affects me now is if I wanted to distribute "Tailored clothes." I won't. If I need clothes to fit a particular figure, I already have Tailor, and I have the new Michael Morphing Clothing pack. As for Mover, I've experienced less than 5 instances where Mover has been necessary for me. Most of those were Free Stuff items. I can't recall one commercial product I've bought that required Mover. But then I'm absent-minded too. I sympathize with your situation in England. I'd hate to pay all those extra expenses. Frankly I doubt I'd ever see Poser here in Maine (USA). In so many ways this is still a pretty "backwards" state. Heck, we don't even have computer user's groups here, and it appears I'm probably the only Poser user in Maine... So when the time comes I'll do an online purchase.

I disagree with your assessment of the figures. I and a lot of other people use Posette and dork a lot as "stock" figures in a render. For filling empty spaces, populating a scene and general ducks in a stall posette and dork are excellent. Mike and Vic are central characters because of their versatility. As you say yourself, there's so much stuff available that it's not really logical to write it off. For instance, Poser 3 has been given away free on a magazine disk, this resulted in a renewed demand for Poser 3 compatible people and items. Poser 4 will go the same way. Some people will stick with it regardless, most likely because they can't afford the system upgrade to use Poser 5 and low end systems that struggle a bit with P4 now will choke to death on P5. As for the default P5 figures. Hrrm. When I see one without a texture map on it and posed and I knew where they came from, I'll make a judgement there. People were very pleased with the small improvements to the P4 fem during her translation from P3, but as you know, it wasn't long before problems showed through and Eve/Azura was the result of that. As for the rest of what you say, yeah, I agree with that, including mover which I think I've used about a dozen times. As for not buying for the current version of Poser. If P5 has cloth dynamics included then P4 clothing will work in it, just about as well as it does with Tailor now - not brilliantly but acceptably. Having said that, yes, I too will be stopping my purchases but for the simple reason I am going to need to save up between 200 and 800 dollars for Poser5. :)

Hmmm, Well, that was interesting... No more informative than I would have expected, but in the light of the P5 previews, interesting. I don't care how much it costs, I want P5! If the .avi file is anything to go by even I may stand a chance at making clothes, not that my "women" are in the habit of wearing many... :) As for "bulging superheroes" I have "Massive Mike" for Mike 1. I thought about Mike 2, but I've got no use for him, and the only clothing I have is from free stuff, which I've experimented with, but I don't have a single archived render of Mike with clothing, none. I guess the interesting point here is the reference to "The Wizards of Japan" Who produce a lot of cool stuff, almost all of which is for the stock P4 characters. Even after the advent of Vicky Lores. I imagine that the stock P5 characters are rather advanced, possibly more so that V&M 1/2. Everyone who buys P5 will get them "free", and the ability to build clothes for them easily. If Daz are having a hissy fit about people not making clothes freely available for the models thay sell, I image people will dump them for models thay can clothe. Especially if they have to work out how to use mover first. I've been doing this for 20+ years, I'm capable of taking the counter-intuitive step. But I've also taught newbies which side of the floppy is which, and how to use a mouse. So unless the mover program is simple "fire & forget" tool that a grown-up of 40 can use, (as the child of five will outwit them every time...) Then it's doomed to failure, or at best, marginal success. People like me will use it, just as I've used mover in the past, even if finding the seed object is a bitch! :) But the bulk of people who make up the forums, "the community" will move quietly to the P5 figures, just as they moved from Posette to Vicky in the past. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen. P5 changes the competitive landscape. Making it more complex to use "legacy" materials is a retrograde step IMO. Only one thing is certain, the one that produces the prettiest eye candy wins.... Got to go home now and resurrect my laptop (AGAIN!) Fucking XP Pro, Bag O'Shite, P5 Does hair and clothing that moves! Yaaay! :P "Move along, move along, nothing to see here" later jb

thanks, thip...for being clear. i was out of town for a couple days....and, my little v2 wardrobe counts alot, to me. because i worked hard in my freetime to create it. why did chad's remarks not have a thread of their own? why is it still more legal to use morph manager to transfer all v2's or m2's tot he lores versions...or just to v1 and m1, and sell using objaction mover? so many questions...so glad daz isn't dying to possess my little poppi millenium wardrobe, it i can get the time to finish it..... ron...i really don't think they wanted to steal your freestuff items, either. keep good, Poppi :*)

I never worried that anyone wanted to steal my Free Stuff Items. Hell, I'm just putting out my first bumbling attempts at characters, along with some clothes to enhance their appeal. However, yes, I remain concerned about potential violations of copyrights. And I would not risk the possibility that DAZ would sue me. Hell no. This stuff isn't that important. Each of us has different needs when it comes to using Poser, computers etc. Some of you obviously use "crowd scenes," and lo-res characters are good for that. I frankly don't do many crowd scenes. If I did, I'd trot out the old archaic characters, probably. However, that is not the same as keeping them in the "first ranks." You probably won't waste much money on Dork and Posette. You won't buy the latest P4 fashions, etc. I have no serious business-related needs. I don't do crowds. I already have more "millennium stuff" than I can keep track of or use. This is the time for me to stop spending money on Poser stuff and start saving for the Poser 5 upgrade. Then when I have Poser 5, I'll make an even greater effort to learn everything it has to offer before I consider spending another dime on "goodies."

Thanks for your feedback everyone. And thank you for the obvious efforts so many of you are making to discuss these issues in a way that actually promotes understanding. It is very appreciated, as well as conducive to the further constructive exchange of ideas. We also appreciate your concern for upholding license agreements and copyright, and for your general desire to work within a system that allows for developers ownership and protection rights to be maintained.

Just for the record, dishonest people will always look for loopholes or they will outright take what they want. At DAZ, we know that our survival in this market depends primarily on promoting the necessary education for honest people to be honest, especially at times like this when questions arise.

It seems that many of you have raised the question of what constitutes a derivative model or morph, so Ill try to address that here. And I'll be posting this message in other locations Im aware of where these questions have been asked. Its also been pointed out that in my efforts to be thorough and accurate in representing DAZ I can tend to sound like a lawyer. I will try to be as plain as possible without sacrificing the accuracy.

With that in mind, I thought that maybe I should look up the dictionary definition of the word derivative. I wont post my findings here, but feel free to look it up yourself. The common thing I found in all of the possible meanings of the word derivative is that a derivative always requires an original. By definition, something that requires something else in order to be created is a derivative of that something else.

So, on to talking about 3D stuff...

A morph target or a mesh is owned by its original creator.

If it is an original morph or original mesh (such as DraXs Musclebound Michael morph or Bloodsongs Dragon Factory model), then this morph/mesh is owned entirely by its creator. The owner of the model (DAZ in the case of Musclebound Michael) does not have any say in the usage of someones original morph for that model. This is, of course, provided that its usage does not infringe upon the rights of the model creator somehow (such as distributing the Musclebound Michael product as an OBJ rather than as a delta set which requires the Michael OBJ).

If it is a derivative morph or a derivative mesh (such as the Muscular morph on Stephanie or Torinos Eve model), then this morph/mesh is owned partially by the creator of the derivative work and partially by the creator of the work from which it was derived. This derivative morph/mesh can only be distributed in one of two ways: (1) under terms agreed to by both creators, or (2) in such a way that the derivative morph does not circumvent the need for the end user to already have the morph or model from which it was derived. (You may note that the Eve model, a derivative of the Posette model, is distributed as an encrypted file such that it requires the ownership of the original mesh.)

And with that groundwork, let me answer a few specific questions that are representative of many.

1. I have just a small example in mind, If I made a coat for Vicki or Mike It could be taken as a mesh derivate work? no matter if the entire geometry is different?

It could be. It depends on how you made the coat. It will be a derivative mesh if you could not have made it in the same way without using the other partys model (Vicki or Mike in your example). If it is a derivative, as most clothing item models are, then you will either need to distribute it in such a way that it requires the end user to already own the original model, or you will need an agreement on terms for distribution with the owner of the original model. If the owner of the original model is DAZ, you may rest assured that your agreement with DAZ is already in place. We have always allowed the distribution of such clothing models, even when those clothes compete directly with similar clothes for sale at DAZ. I cannot speak for the positions that other model owners may take.

2. You say you have allowed people to Use Michael to make clothing... you're certainly not meaning that they can cut up the OBJ file and make clothing, are you? Or are you saying that people can use michael as a template over which to draw new geometries not extracted from the original mesh?

Correct, and thanks for pointing out the distinction. Derivative models that directly incorporate parts of another persons model are always prohibited. DAZ is drawing the distinction only for derivative add-on products that use a DAZ mesh for fitting purposesas a template.

3. The Tailor does not in anyway copy any mesh from your characters and apply them to clothing. It stretches the mesh of the target to approximate the dial settings of the source character and creates a cr2 that can only be applied to the exact same target item whether on the creators machine or on the machine of someone that they have passed the cr2.

Correct. And this situation is not specific to The Tailor; many applications do similar things. No one is implying that rights to the original mesh are being challenged here. As you point out, the end user is still required to possess the target mesh. Rather, the rights to original morphs are being challenged. As a result, when the derivative files are distributed they must either be done so in a way that is either approved of by the original creator or in a way that requires the end user already has the original work in order to use the derivative files.

4. Why, with this concern, are you selling a clothing package for $14.97 that will permit anyone with Michael one to make him look like Michael 2? Are you yourselves by selling this package circumventing the need for peopleto buy Michael 2?

Yes, we are circumventing that need for some people. However, as the owner of the original data this is our prerogative. Again, anyone can make an agreement with someone else which modifies his own copyright and license agreement. You may also have noticed that many people (including us at DAZ) regularly create derivative models and morphs from their own products that may well compete with the product from which they are derived. Of course, it is the sole right of the owner of the original work to do this.

I hope this additional information and clarification about derivative works is helpful to everyone. And I hope it didnt sound too much like incomprehensible legalese. Thanks again for your patience and understanding.

In closing, I hope to be home and in bed as soon as possible, and DAZ will be out of the office tomorrow for the Fourth of July. I hope that this message provides some useful information in the meantime.

Sincerely,
Chad Smith
DAZ Productions

Thanks Chad. More stuff to read and decipher and pull to pieces letter by letter until we discover the secret subliminal messages that you and the CIA mind control spooks are placing in your messages. smirk OK, seriously, that helps some sorta towards clearing a couple of things up. Have a good 4th of July. You'll excuse me as being a lousy Brit we don't celebrate such things so I'll carry on as normal. :) I confess I'm most interested in (3) again, because this seems to be a turnaround from your earlier stance on Tailor altered clothing. But, for now I'll read it properly before commenting.

Sometimes, before you've had your morning coffee, you look up and notice that little pieces of the sky are falling. But when you look closer you discover that it's only dandruff.

"4) Why, with this concern, are you selling a clothing package for $14.97 that will permit anyone with Michael one to make him look like Michael 2? Are you yourselves by selling this package circumventing the need for peopleto buy Michael 2? Yes, we are circumventing that need for some people. However, as the owner of the original data this is our prerogative. Again, anyone can make an agreement with someone else which modifies his own copyright and license agreement. You may also have noticed that many people (including us at DAZ) regularly create derivative models and morphs from their own products that may well compete with the product from which they are derived. Of course, it is the sole right of the owner of the original work to do this." My only concern here is relative to those who had wished to give away Tailor-modified clothing. At this point, I doubt anything I do for freebies is "good enough" to be sold commercially. Therefore an exclusive brokering agreement with DAZ doesn't seem appropriate or desirable to DAZ. I'd hoped to enhance the desirablilty of my custom-made free characters by providing free Tailored clothing such as a bodysuit, shirt and pants. In the end I fear my freebies will no longer be offered because I currently don't think I'm ready to "go commercial." Ron