Well here we go, something of a solution to the problem with Morphs which can make a figure look like Mike or Vic 2 and just be version 1. I talked to Steve at DAZ, and he the PTB (Powers that Be) there. And, they think this is the solution for the time being. However I'd love for everyone to try this out/test it with Macs and different files. Down to the meat of this; how to distribute clothing that will fit M2/V2. The answer is pretty simple. ObjMover. Yup that's right. See it basically just encodes a text file using another text file as the seed. This is obvious since OBJs are nothing but text. So what can this do to help with modified CR2s you ask? Well what's a CR2.. a text file. So if you rename the CR2's file extension to OBJ for the encoding, and when decoded you'll have to change it back to CR2, PZ3 etc etc. Now, what to use as the seed? Well, V2 and M2 luckily come with objs which are unique to their version. These three respectively are: blVickiP4.obj and blP4Michael.obj or blP4MilHipNoGen.obj So, with these as seeds you have an encoded CR2 that can contain morphs similar to the ones in V2/M2 that can be distributed according DAZ Meat and Gravy tutorial. Take your CR2 of clothing with V2/M2 morphs, rename it OBJ. Use it as the figure file, and then load one of the unique V/M2 OBJs as seeds. And boom you have the PCF. When Decoding: Load PCF, Use the OBJ seed file (Again should be one of the unique OBJs for the version 2 chars) Once decoded you change the extension to CR2 (Or other file format) and use to heart's content. Please let me know if this works with Mac's version of Maz's utility? A link to Maz's site for PC users: http://www.sandylodge.demon.co.uk/ Again, this solution for V2/M2 morphs has been approved by DAZ, as of today. Tom/Depa king.thomas2@verizon.net

Sounds like a great Idea, maybe we could get OBJ Mover made to accept CR2 encoding..this interim step would be great but with so many potential new users that don't understand file structures this addition to Mover would be welcome.....Then you could simply use the M2 or V2 CR2 and the seed...Seeing as how all Objaction does is encode the difference shouldn't be too difficult to add the CR2 file option..

This sounds interesting, but hopefully it's a short-term solution because this adds a fair amount of complexity to installing purchased items. I have been thinking about making a simple setup program for PCs that would do something similar. Basically it would be a self extracting ZIP stub that would scan the V2/M2 CR2 file and validate it before extracting the archive to the appropriate location. There would be a setup wizard that would allow you to pick the files and then it would create an encrypted self-extracting ZIP. Any thoughts? Brian

I've emailed MAZ about allowing the figure file to be a CR2 (etc). The problem with using the Mike2 or Vick2 CR2 as the seed and not the OBJ is the size. Trust me on this one, tested it. Tom

I will try this on my body suit right now and let you know, but it doesn't help those with commercial products because objaction mover can't be used for them...unless Maz changes his position on that of course.

Right, I know. I emailed him about that as well. Though I was thinking, what if a CR2 for the commercial product with the morphs from M2 were given away as a freebie? You buy the base model and base CR2 for the morphs though here in freestuff you would need to own both the product and M2 for it to work. Let me know how it works for you SciFi. Tom

Um, please don't take this the wrong way, but there's been so much confusion about who said what and how, that I'd like to hear an actual DAZ official say this is OK.

so they are still claimig rights to "aproximated" morphs??

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I tested it and it works great! And no FyreSpirit, I'm not taking dep's word for it ;) However, it does seem this would totally allieviate Daz' concerns over people who don't own Mike2 being able to use a tailor morphed clothing cr2 based on him. That doesn't mean there aren't questions that still need to be answered, but this is certainly a step in the right direction.

DAZ is completely in support of this latest idea. We wish we would have thought of this as a potential application of this program earlier in order to avoid this issue altogether. We have not tried this out ourselves yet, so I cannot say that this is absolutely THE sure-fire method that everyone's looking for. However, I can definitely say that DAZ is 100% behind any technology that allows users to share anything they want yet still makes sure that the end-user/recipient owns the products required so that nothing proprietary is passed around for free. This concept, as it was explained to us by depakotez, seems to fully protect any and every artist's work, and that is what we want to see maintained and protected. I'm anxious to see exactly how this new idea can be implemented, and if it can be done successfully, I think it will be a great new method to adopt. I urge everyone to do what testing of this that they can, we'll keep our fingers crossed. Thanks again for contacting me about this, depakotez, I think everyone is grateful for the time you put into brainstorming on this.

No problem, and I don't blame people for not taking my word for it right off. I wouldn't have either, considering all the stuff that's been flying around lately. Sci, awesome that it works. Anyone else try this out? Tom/Depa

Steve, I would be more than happy to provide you with my body suit encoded under this scheme if you would like to test it. Because it was always free, I do not need additional permission from Maz. In fact, the obj is already pcf encoded to accomodate the remap. If you can provide me with your email I will fire it off you asap.

Thank you for stopping by and letting us know DAZ's stance on this portion of the issue. But it doesn't help in regards to commercial use does it? I thought obj mover was personal use only... And dep, thanks for looking for a solution!

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No probs LSM, Quoting DTHUREGRIF from 'another place' here. "Maz recently gave permission for ObjMover to be used on commercial products until he could come out with the "pro" version as long as credit is given. However, since he can't have foreseen this expanded commercial use, I think his permission should be obtained first. Diane " I'm not entirely sure where that would be posted in Maz's words, but I have emailed Maz about all this. And, if the clothing that has morphs that would simulate M2 morphs (Approximations that cover the body making M1 obsolete) it could be given away as a freebie. Someone could buy the full fledged model/figure with a base cr2, the cr2 with M2/V2 morphs could be an encoded freebie. Tom

There's another problem with using cr2's as seeds - they tend to change as each user personalizes them in some small way. You need something that will stay stable. The millenium P4 figure obj files (and the steph obj and millennium girls obj files) are perfect for the purpose. It falls down for the Millennium Boys though, since they don't have a unique obj of their own.

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Agreed, that's why I suggested using the OBJs mentioned in the first post. To avoid the whole problem of size and changes that would come from using a CR2 as a seed. As for the Mil Boys.. ouch, I hadn't thought of that, but I don't recall them being an issue were they? Since the boys and girls, clothing morphed for them can't really be used by anyone else right? Tom

I guess boy clothing could be used on the girls, masking their female figures and making them look masculine. The boys are an add-on to the girls and use the girl geometry, just with some morphs to make them have more masculine bodies and faces. I think that's right anyway. I haven't looked at it too closely.

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Since they are an addon, they still use a unique OBJ file as the seed, that would be blMilGirlPS.obj wouldn't it? Since that is the unique file for the boys and girls. Tom

The problem is, you get that obj with the girls, so you don't have to have the boys to get the benefit of a bodysuit with their body morphs.

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Very valid Ajax, you'll have to forgive me for my lapse there. Been a long day for me due to work etc. I think that's something that would have to be asked of Daz? I don't have any kind of authority ;) Help me out here, the problems relate to M2's morphs since the EULA for him was the most restrictive? Tom

For what it's worth I tried this, resulted in a corrupt object, trashed Poser, trashed the ffobj.arp, trashed my system registry and took down Win2k. Nice effect. That's the first time I've had a major crash in a long while. Thank goodness for dat tape backups. :) I'll try it again later once I find out what went wrong.

Wow Questor, I know that you had a crash from testing it but had no clue that it would do that to you. You're the first (Of possibly several) that had an issue with it. Thank goodness for DAT Tapes, I second that. If you figure out what happened, or a combo that messed up let us know? Tom

Just one question: Does the restriction (PCF decoding) apply to items in a DAZ store too?

I don't have the milboys, so I don't know anything about them. Are there really any morphs that need to be protected in them? Aren't Mike2/Vicki2 the only restricted cr2s (maybe Steph, I'm not sure)? Even if this was the case, Daz may be willing to create a "dummy" version obj for the Milboys and provide it as an update to owners (via the "email me your purchase order" process) to faciliate this process. I can't imagine that would be very difficulte to do...delete his head or something so the file is different ;)

Or heck just a seed file, like a 500k text file with random characters even? Mad: As for the stuff in the store, I think DAZ is mostly wanting to avoid clothing and such being distributed that can 'circumvent' having to own Mike2/Vick2/Steph to get the same effect. Something I'm not saying I agree with, just this is one attempt at a work around/solution rather than confrontation. Tom

M2 was used as an example but the essence of the problem is that morphs from an add-on character could be approximated in a body covering clothing item such as a bodysuit and that clothing item could then be worn by a base version of the figure (one that doesn't come with the add-on character morphs). This would give the base version the appearance of having the body of the add-on character, though the user doesn't own the add-character. In the case of the kids, you could make a bodysuit that fits the boys and someone who only owns the girls could could put them in that bodysuit, giving them the appearance of having the boy's body. Since the boys don't come with an obj of their own, there's nothing to use as a valid seed.

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Ugh, what an unnecessary annoyance. Granted, it'd only take seconds, but add that up by several items (especially in one package), and you have a pissed off user/customer. A general rule of commerce (one of many) is, don't annoy the customer. I don't jump through hoops for something that shouldn't require a hoop in the first place. Next solution, please. Perhaps reconsidering the ridiculous policy could be tried now.

Well, I use the Poserworld clothing for the DAZBoys all the time with the DAZGirls. I don't own the boys. If you say to me this is illegal I will go ballistic.

scifiguy, I bet they'd take exactly the same view with respect to Steph. Vic in a Steph bodysuit could look like she has all of those Steph musculature morphs. I'd say they would want to protect the boys too. That product has a few textures but it's mostly sold on morphs. There's no obj - it's essentially a morph only product. The textures are mostly there to sweeten the deal a bit I think.

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***If you figure out what happened, or a combo that messed up let us know? Tom *** Yeah, sure. As I said, once I track the problem I'll have another go, but I'll be sure to let you know why it happened if it's something that I think might occur to others. My system set up is pretty odd and probably not common amongst community members so if it's system related I don't see a lot of point unless the error replicates and re-occurs.

Whoop: I didn't make the policy, just trying to figure a way around it for us user/hobbiest to share our stuff within the bounds of what DAZ is asking with the policy. I'm in the same boat as everyone else, just trying to make the waves a little less choppy. :)

This might be a silly idea, but what about using UV Mapper to create a uvs file instead of objaction mover? Anybody try that yet?

I came, I rendered, I'm still broke.

UV Mapper requires two files with UV Co-ords right? CR2s don't have UV XYs. Try it for us, if my understanding of UVS files is correct though it probably won't work. Be cool if it does :) Tom

You're right, Doug. That's a silly idea ;-)

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I think people need to keep in mind that this doesn't affect every clothing item. Daz has already stated that they don't have issues with things like a pair of shorts, boots, etc. Only with things like the body suit that totally cover the figure's body. Even they haven't been able to come up with another item that would fit this bill yet! So, it appears to me that the number of items that would actually need encoding is going to be very few and the others could be distributed as normal cr2s. And as has already been stated, under Maz' current licensing pcf encoded files could not be provided in the commercial package itself. So you could provide a base "ready to go" cr2 in that, and anything that needed to be pcf encoded in your freestuff as a free addon.

scifiguy: "I think people need to keep in mind that this doesn't affect every clothing item. Daz has already stated that they don't have issues with things like a pair of shorts, boots, etc. Only with things like the body suit that totally cover the figure's body." I'll grant that, but the question has already been raised, what about a pants and shirt set? All one has to do is take some pants and a shirt and that'll cover the body. That may be more useful for emulating Vicki's breast morphs than creating super heroes, but it's STILL circumventing the V2/M2/etc purchase, isn't it? I just don't see this as an ideal solution, but as one that'll annoy customers. depakotez: I know you didn't make the policy, and believe me, I'm very appreciative that you and others are looking for alternative solutions. Heck, I hadn't thought of using objmover. However, I just think the solution is NOT to be found within adding steps or making things more difficult for the customer, but to adopt a reasonable and logical policy that doesn't presume to own things they have no right to. We're generally law-abiding folks and will do things in good faith, but there's a point where someone can overstep their boundries. A final "however" to this, I think DAZ will come up with a good solution. They've done so in the past, but this just seems a little...different. Perhaps I'll go back to lurking, but I wanted to be sure I had my say on this one.

Ok, I've been looking over this, and pretty much any other thread involving this issue, and I'm gonna throw my two cents in, then slip back into the shadows: If this goes through, and I'm required to use OBJaction Mover to decode clothing so I can use it on Mike or Vicky 2, I'm going to make the process that much easier... I'm not going to make the purchase. I purchased Mike 2, I purchased Victoria 2. I went through long periods of headache and aggravation because the majority of the new morphs were useless unless I wanted naked characters. Clothing was a waste of time. Little if anything was made specifically to fit the new morph capability. Along came Tailor...a vrekkin GODSEND program, which I praise each and every time I use it. Now I can make nearly any clothing item work with the Millenium 2's, and I can focus on my art. I already deal with numerous issues every time I download an item, free or purchased. A sampling of the list: 1. Commercial use or not? 2. Oddball file locations (MAT files as CM2, for example) made necessary by Poser's limitations. 3. Getting the files where I want them in my libraries, not necessarily where the item creator put them. Now you're telling me that this 'solution' is going to add the NECESSITY to use OBJaction Mover to decode the files before I can even assess items 2 and 3 on the list? No thanks. And as far as this not affecting every clothing item? It's either got to affect them all, or none. This isn't a buffet, it's a business policy. That policy is going to affect the time it takes for creators to get their work approved, which in turn is going to affect the cost of the items. My art is expensive enough to create as it is. I've poured thousands of dollars into the programs and add-ons I use to create my art. I support the creators of the wonderful tools I've added to my creative palette, both with my buying dollar, and with my word-of-mouth advertising to friends in the art community. As whoopdat said, One of the first rules of commerce: Don't annoy the customer. This 'solution' would annoy me out of being a customer. And as Stan Lee says: "Nuff said." CT fades back into the shadows...

I've been in talks with Chad at DAZ, and am now working with Depa3D to develop a utility that will be freely available to the community and will have the blessing of DAZ.

I forsee a potential technical problem with this approach. Victoria 2 Reduced Resolution is designed to wear Victoria's clothes. If clothing morphs are encrypted using a full-res Victoria mesh as the seed file, people who own Victoria 2 Reduced Resolution, but not Victoria 2, will not be able to decrypt them. You'd need two separate versions of the distributable files, one encrypted for Victoria 2 owners, the other for Victoria 2 Reduced Resolution owners.

Good point, LD. I didn't think of that one.

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I didn't either. Good one... Tom

rcook: "I've been in talks with Chad at DAZ, and am now working with Depa3D to develop a utility that will be freely available to the community and will have the blessing of DAZ." Great. Can I ask what it's for? Something along these lines? I sure hope not. And Little Dragon raised another interesting point with the lo-res models. Something else I'd not thought of.... (So much for lurking. I'll try. Really, I'll try.)

With my understanding, if a piece of clothing is supposed to require Victoria to use, having Victoria 2 Reduced Resolution doesn't qualify anyway. You have to have purchased Victoria to use the piece of clothing. Am I missing something?

Just a little, the clothing that fits on V2 will fit on V2Lo and they share morphs. So an item created with morphs that would work with V2 will work with V2Lo's morphs as well. So there, unless there is a solution, would require two versions. One for lo res V2 and another for standard v2 Tom

When you pay for Vic 2 reduced resolution, you supposedly get all the advantages of Vic 2 - just at a reduced resolution. She takes the same clothes, takes the same textures, takes the same morph poses and face poses etc. There is absolutely no difference between a clothing item with morphs to fit Vic 2 and a clothing item with morphs to fit Vic 2 LoRes.

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Ah, ok. I think I understand now. Yeah, seems like there would have to be two versions distributed, unless I can find a way to use multiple "key" files. Maybe by packaging both distributions into the same encoded file. Hmmm... maybe.

Why is everyone ignoring the basic issue? You're all putting the cart before the horse. The real issue is this: Tailor doesn't copy morphs, it approximates them. The end result is not the same morph as what is on the DAZ figure. I could do the same thing with magnets and be on the moral high ground. Tailor simply does this with clever code rather than magnets. It seems to me that DAZ has no business telling anyone what to do with the Results of Tailor, as per the wishes of Codetwister. And by the way, the DAZ morphs are better looking. Anyone trying to use Tailor to create false morphs to simulate Mike 2 is going to have a crappy looking model. These are not the people who were going to buy Mike/Vicky 2 anyway, no sales are lost over crappy approximation morphs. And what's final is that DAZ has no ground to stand on to make these demands. The morphs tailor creates are not there's just approximate shape which one can do in 3dsmax, Rhino, or within poser itself with magnets. This is a non-issue and DAZ are just making themselves look bad IMO. -WTB

This would be a situation where you require the ability to unlock with either key file but don't need both. I can think of other situations where it would be useful to require two keyfiles both of which must be present to unlock the encrypted file. That's more for obj distribution though.

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I'm sorry, but I don't believe what you're suggesting. Let me explain. 1.) Mover is designed to ensure that someone can't use a derivitive character without owning the original character. 2.) Mover is not about morphs. It is about the obj file that goes with a cr2 file. 3.) Tailor is about morphs. Tailor won't work without the original clothing item... therefore Mover is not needed. If Tailor produced clothes that worked without the original obj file, then Mover would be appropriate. 4.) DAZ's objection to distribution of Tailored clothes is that people would be able to take the morphs from the clothes, and apply them to Mike 1. Mike 1 would either look like Mike 2 in the body suit, or maybe someone could transfer the morphs directly to Mike 1. It was a nice try, but Mover just won't solve this problem. Beyond that, tell me, do Mike 1 & Mike 2 have different geometries? How about Vicky 1 & 2? How about the low-res vs the hi-res versions? It sounds like someone neglected to check some of the more essential or basic facts before jumping on the Mover bandwagon. Mover is not the right choice here.

Ron, If you would just check the tutorial you'll see that mover does indeed encode the altered CR2 file. Please, check all the relevant and essential information before assuming I didn't :) I'm not jumping on a bandwagon here. The facts are simple, Mover will encode a text file using any text file as a seed or key file. It just has to be named "OBJ" in it's version. So if you take any text file and change it's extension to OBJ it can be encoded with any other file including real OBJs. Been tested, and RCook and I are now working on an app that will just encode without worrying about file extensions. Thus eliminating steps and making it all easier for the end user. Tom

Why is DAZ going through all this in the first place if the theoretical Poser 5 is going to make The Tailor obsolete anyway?

Yeah Movida, good point, but when can we expect P5? It's been in the works for a long time already and unless I'm behind times it's not really anymore than Feature Lists right now. Still, all this will be old news if P5 has the Dynamic Cloth features that we've all heard about. Very good point on that. Tom

I have to agree with ronknights. Having people rename file extentions and using Mover is begging for problems. Also, Mover has commerical restrictions. That will cause even more problems. The solution should not cause more problems than the original problem. It is a nice idea for advanced users. But, beginners are going to have problems and we will see an endless amount of forum post of people asking questions.

Unless I am missing something here, I am correct to assume that Mover does not have a Mac version? I was searching around for one but, found nada. I am just getting into modeling...this just seems like another hoop to jump through that shouldn't exist in the first place. Does this also mean that there's the chance if you don't own the character, you can't use the clothing? I don't have the Mil kids, but I have the kid's Costume Shoppe set, which I enlarge and quite happily use for Vicky/Steph. Am always using Mike's coats on the girls too. So, what, I'm gonna be up *$#@ creek with no paddle? Personally, part of the fun of using items is finding unusual ways to use them. So I don't own the character they were created for? So what! With some creative dial twirling, I can make something much more origional with them many a time.

Or, depakotez, they know Poser 5 is a daydream...???

Willdial: That's why there is a different app being made to try and cover it and make it a heck of a lot easier :) So that the renaming and such aren't needed. Fidget: I don't make the policy, I'm just a user like you who happened to find one solution that DAZ agreed with. I suggest taking frustration at the policy to them.. Sorry, I agree to a lot of wanting to fiddle and get things to work, that's loads of fun :) Movida: Wow, hadn't thought of that one... I sure hope it's not just a daydream.

Excuse me, but if I read correctly, "Mover Advocates" neglected to take an inventory of just which figures use which geometry files? "Victoria 2 Reduced Resolution is designed to wear Victoria's clothes. If clothing morphs are encrypted using a full-res Victoria mesh as the seed file, people who own Victoria 2 Reduced Resolution, but not Victoria 2, will not be able to decrypt them. You'd need two separate versions of the distributable files, one encrypted for Victoria 2 owners, the other for Victoria 2 Reduced Resolution owners." Besides, we can't forget the Mac users. Back to the drawing board guys. This time why not form a committee, and talk about all the possibilities, and test them before making an announcement.

Ron: There is a MAC mover type converter out there. Or was the last time I checked. This was tested, the mover solution. Enough shooting the messengers okay? Tom

Tom, this new app you and rcook are working on sounds great. If you can come up with something that will encrypt any text based file using one or more text based seed files and which allows commercial usage it will have all sorts of applications beyond this particular issue. You guys get my vote of confidence. It's a shame people that obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about feel the need to tell you it can't be done.

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Ajax, Thanks , yeah it would be awesome beyond just poser. The idea of using something like PGP encryption keys has also been presented elsewhere to deal with the problems of things like the MilBoys. Though that would require DAZ setting up a key and making it standard, then emailing people etc etc etc. Whew, fun :) Tom

A text file is a text file, and if you guys tested it, I'll believe you that it works. End of story. But that doesn't change the reality of the situation: stupid policy. Finding some way to bow to their wishes instead of convincing them to change a ridiculous policy by calm, logical discussion, only further aggravates the situation and gives them more power beause we are relinquishing our position, whether their position is legal or otherwise. This thread has mostly been commented on by people with more technical knowledge than the hobbyists like myself. My thinking, as a hobbyist, is that I don't want to jump through hoops to do something, automated or not. It may not be as big a deal when installing, but suppose I want to sell something (unlikely) or offer a free item (possible), that means I now have to go through the extra steps of figuring out how to use mover properly, or some other new program if I want to give out something that has a morph in it. Frankly, I'm lazy, and I don't like unnecessary steps, especially those that are essentially caving in to pressure. I just can't be the only person that feels this way, and I know I'm not. Besides, WTB said it nicely, moving morphs from M2 to clothing to M1 looks like crap. Someone posted a picture in another thread of this sort of thing (well, with V2 and V1 anyhow) and it looked awful. Sure, it could be touched up in post work, but anything can. It'd be easier just to twist more dials instead.

Please forgive me for chirping in here... please understand this is done in an attempt to offer help through suggestion... not flaming... I can certainly appreciate what Russell and Mehndi are attempting to do with this. I think it is nice of them to step up to the plate and try to help both the Community and DAZ in solving this issue. But perhaps it might be better and more in DAZ's interest to create the program (for both PC/MAC) or pay someone to do this themselves. Here is my line of thinking on this... DAZ is rightfully concerned about protecting their products, their interests and intellectual property. The best way in which for them to do this would be creating the functions of the software that would promise deliverance of those goals. I am not saying that Russell isn't competent to create such a thing, only that DAZ should have more control and direct input in the creation of such product and make sure that it covers both Computer Style Systems. No offense, but as a Company I would be reluctant to rely on such an important program for protection to be created without any control on it's functions or features, not if the security of my companies products and livelihood is based upon the protection that that software will offer to my company. Third party software to help the Community to do things quicker and faster has already led to a problem that potentially threatens the security of DAZ created product. I would think that it would go much further if the Community could see a product to fix these errors and be sure to protect those interests come directly from DAZ... not another third party. This will install within the Community a comfort zone and piece of mind that DAZ is directly fixing this situation, that the functions of that software wont violate other software or areas, and rather than relying on some third party person who would own the rights to that work and code, it would actually be owned by DAZ and provide a much needed comfort zone that this Community so despretely needs right now regarding this issue. Just my thought on the subject. Jack

So the solution isn't perfect, but at least it is a step in the right direction. I didn't even think about changing the file extentions when I suggested encoding a .cr2 the same way we encode an .obj (previous thread, .....so is this hulabaloo my fault?) Recap of known problems with this: 1. there are 2 versions of vicky 2 (regular & lo-res) (daz would have to supply a seed file) 2. tedious to encode/decode (bummer dude) 3. mover is non-commerical (get permission) 4. not everyone agrees that Daz has the right to restrict morph approximation. (can't please everyone I guess) To be blunt this issue will mostly impact Mac users & people without tailor. If you have tailor than you can just make the clothing morphs yourself if you want them, it would probably be quicker than downloading a bloated .pcf on a dial-up.

Shadow acknowledging some of the problems. 0. A new app is in the works to resolve the renaming issue :) 1. Yeah.. so until something like that happens there would have to be two versions. 2. Same progress that had to be done for free models etc Mover. It would just show up a little more... Agree that it can be a little tedious at times. 3. See 0 :) New app based on encoder principle. 4. I never said I agree, just hoping that this might solve some of the issues that have arisen. Hopefully a MAC person will develope a version of a similar app for MACs, or a crosscompile version of the current app in the works. And, depends on the speed of the connection versus CPU. I know for me downloading a 2 meg file is a hecka lot faster than using tailor for me :) Not disagreeing with your points at all though... Tom

No idea how much faster/slower tailor is, I don't have it yet. After reading another thread I have come to the conclusion that DAZ should be given at least some understanding on this issue. Unfortunately I don't want to say why this is, because I don't want to give anyone any ideas. But I will say this: It can easily go beyond a few items of clothing, and frankly we do not want to discourage DAZ from creating all of those wonderful morphs for their products.

My question in post #23 is still not answered. Here we go again: Will the Bodysuit in the M2 Morphing Clothing Kit also require PCF decoding. Do we have this 'solution' for all M2/V2 clothing or only for items which are not distributed by DAZ.

MadYuri, You wouldn't be able to distribute the BodySuit from M2 morphing clothing pack anyway I don't believe. The situation as I understood/stand it is that DAZ doesn't want clothing that covers a Mike1 or Vick1 figure floating around with morphs from Mike2 or Vick2 on them. So they get the effect without owning M2 or V2. So.. any clothing item that would cover them to that point would have to be encoded if it will contain morphs that circumvent the ownership of M2 or V2. Hope that helps some, the issue is a little confusing for me as well honestly on some levels. Hope this helps some. But as for the BodySuit from Mike 2's morphing clothes wouldn't really be given away anyway, then the issue with that item isn't present :) Feel free to message me if I'm babbling too much from lack of sleep :) Tom

I'm not sure what you are saying depakotez. Do only free stuff items have to be encoded and for sale items not? Or is ist a question of the distribution channel. Everything from DAZ is ok, anybody else has to encode his stuff?

Anybody can buy the M2/V2 morphing clothes and get the effect without owning M2 or V2. For that matter they can stick Posette/Dork's head, hands and feet on it. Color me confussd.

Sorry for your lack of sleep, I did just get up an hour ago and I'm full of energy. ;P

A nice solution, but the real issue, as others have said, is the simple fact that DAZ's stance on this issue is ultimately insupportable. I wish there was a reasonable alternative to Victoria and Michael out there. Frankly I'm seriously considering boycotting DAZ over this - not that I expect them to care. I will never conceed that it is right for them to place restrictions on the distribution of clothing morphs THEY HAVE NOT CREATED THEMSELVES. Their own, copyrighted products - that's one thing. Original morphs created to fit V2 and M2 - no. DAZ has no rights over that. So for me, ingenious as it is, using objaction mover is a non-issue.

MadYuri, Relevant items NOT distributed by DAZ would have to be encoded. What happens with DAZ distributed items is really up to them, so you're asking in the wrong place. However, I very much doubt DAZ would require encoding for anything they distribute themselves.

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Would it be wrong of me to suggest we all want to support Codetwister and Tailor?...if we do then why not see if he can implement a save function. like File/Save As Tailor File......you then distribute that and when a 2nd party opens the file it looks for the cr2s that have been used and if they are not there it says you can't use it.....DAZ is protected then and Codetwister gets the support he deserves...just a though of the top of my head ;o)...Steve

Duh. Steve that is a great idea. But we need a Mac version of Tailor too.

Steve, Up getting a drink and thought I'd check in on this thing.. Great idea, but the major problem with it that I can forsee is say someone uses a modified version of a CR2 to base the morphs from? Or the person getting it doesn't have an original version of the CR2? Too many variables there, the idea of encoding off a unique obj related to the product gives a less chance of failure or varience between distributor and the customer. (This applies even if it is a freebie those terms :) ) See what I mean though? So, in future versions of Tailor if they have unique OBJ checking built in that would probably work fine. But for now just trying to get something that will work for the time being is the objective, since I don't really seeing DAZ changing their position on this any time real soon. Tom

I think there may be yet another fly in the ointment. The seed file would have to be exactly the same for encoding and decoding correct? What happens if it's not?

I don't know what other people have done but my cr2 for Vic 2 has been changed numerous times. Also I think there may be some patches out there so there could also be slightly different versions that are totally legit but would not work.

So I guess the lucky consumer would have to check file size and date to make sure he has the exact right cr2 before he could decode his purchase. He might even have to reinstall Vic2 just to get the correct seed file.

On second thought no it is not a good idea. The whole issure is about free distribution of tailored clothes. If the other user has to have Tailor too the whole thing is useless. Sorry that is not the way. :(

Roy, caught me on my way away :) As has been pointed out, it's encoding a CR2 (Or other text file) using a valid OBJ as the seed. Tom Night for real this time :)

Wow, same thought, one minute apart :)

This is giving me a headache. Dina might have been a disaster but the idea was good. I'm begging someone else to take a shot at coming out with new characters that could compete with Daz head on. Make them understand that if they alienate the Poser community, they are easily replaceable. Maybe an "open source" figure freely available for anyone to morph or produce clothing for. NW316

Yeh sorry MadYuri didn't think of that....but isn't vikki 1 and 2 the same obj anywy....i'm rushing here so i may be missing something :o) maybe DAZ can mail everyone with vikki and mike 2 a small file that can be used in the decoding with the new app russels looking at...then everyone has the same file then....Steve

Wouldn't that require all of my customers then to have Tailor to use my products? Thanks, steve, but, no. I'm not going to let DAZ set up a bs policy with no legal backing, then demand that my cunstomers go buy a program from their store to use my product. Paul

Btw: Whopper Girl will be available as soon as possible. Please be patient as I am one guy using the mediocre tools of 3ds max 4.2. Whopper Girl, of course, will be free. Paul

This sounds like a workable solution. May I suggest that the application automatically look in the geometries folder for the required obj file by default. This would save a step in searching for it. Having a standard directory for pcf files under runtime would be nice also if everyone (most folks) could be persuaded to have their pcf's unzip there then the application could default to that location as well, saving another few mouse clicks. I see two categories of objections here: 1. People who are simply angry at DAZ and don't want to accept the inevitable. The decision's been made folks, for better or worse. You can hope that it will lead to DAZ' ultimate downfall and try to do your part by boycotting them, but continuing to boil over this will accomplish nothing but raising your blood pressure. 2. A few individuals who see this solution as then end of a divisive controversy they so enjoyed promoting. Relax, I'm sure you can find another tempest to brew in your teapots. Whether DAZ was right or legal in what they did is a topic which can be (and has been) debated endlessly. At this point, anyone who is so seriously outraged that they can't accept the status quo should pursue the matter in court or continue to lobby DAZ directly. By all means, let us examine this pcf solution, point out potential flaws and try to make it work. This group has a history of accomplishing some pretty great things. Hopefully, that will continue, minus some of the viciousness that took place over this past weekend. Hopefully, most people have learned something about not adding to the tinder when someone tries to start a fire.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

1. People who are simply angry at DAZ and don't want to accept the inevitable. I'm not simply mad at DAZ. My big issue is that I work on a Mac. So DAZ is willing to alienate an entire segment of the consumer segment? Or until they come out with that relevant software for us Mac users? And how long would that take? And as it has been said before, why should we have to pay even more money? It's a very legit arguement against this idea. I personally like DAZ very much, but what they are suggesting has us catering to them, not the other way around, which is the way business should work, right? We, after all, pay their bills. It has nothing to do with raising a tempest for the vast majority of us. We have very legit concerns, whatever angle we are coming from. And It's almost becoming a case of not being able to see the trees for the forest, you know? :)

Entropic yeh i agree is not a great solution, i was more thinking out loud than anything.....lmckenzie, it all goes further than just the tailor though, for example we have a few dresses at PWFW that fit the morphed vikki 2, muscle, young and Large, so using those and a bit of tweaking on vikki1 they could be used with her, so do we pull these from the site and tell every member to delete them?...this thing goes much further than the use of tailor. Steve

OK, when the Mover solution was proposed, some folks said there was a problem because they have Macs. I guessed that meant there is no Mac version of Mover. I could be wrong, since I don't have a Mac. This is all about the supposed ability of Mike 1 to somehow borrow Mike 2 morphs to look like Mike 2. The most direct method would be to simply wear Mike 2's bodysuit, and hope we don't notice his slender neck etc. This problem would exist using either "Tailored," and "free distribution" clothes, or clothes sold through DAZ. So if the Mover is to be the "ultimate solution," that would involve everyone, including DAZ, converting all the morphing clothes by this method. If DAZ doesn't change their clothes this way, then any DAZ clothes can violate DAZ's copyright rules.

And clothes just built around a morphed version of vikki2 Ron, wether tailor is used or not....Steve

I'm sure this thread has already died, (darn my need for sleep) :) but where does this leave characters like Stephanie? Currently she can wear some of Vicki's clothing relatively easily...will this create a need for specifically Stephy clothing or more variations on Vicki cloting obj files? Hope I make sense, need more coffee. :)

"In Greed We Trust" Hypotheticaly Speaking: If I to make my own characters from scratch not based on Mike, Vickie, etc, and that cut into DAZ' profits and they tried to find a way to profit from that, I think that might be considered restraint of trade, or infringement on my copyright or something like that. Most people don't buy DAZ products just because they look good but because they see some potential either for artistic or commercial purposes. The clothing issue is a similar one. If I make clothes not already on the market place for sale it is likewise unreasonable to expect interference from DAZ unless the model of the character can be extracted from my product. Derivitive works issues asside, if I cannot make and sell (or make freebe) clothing for DAZ characters, taking reasonable precautions of course, DAZ characters are useless to me except for educational purposes and what I buy from them will reflect that. What I see as the biggist problem here is Poser characters are considered like "Ken and Barbie" rather than as professional graphic arts tools. This opinion has to change before anything else will. -bikermouse

Taking Ron's example for a moment because it's a perfectly valid one. If I can use a similar example of this kind of nonsense? TSR. They decided they didn't want hundreds of fan websites offering rules and all the other things that come with that so they tied up the legalese so nobody could produce a fan website for AD&D. Unfortunately, that also meant they couldn't do it. Daz are, if they continue with this, going to drive themselves into the same corner with the stupid stick as TSR did. I understand they're trying to protect themselves and protect future sales of their products and future products. Unfortunately this is not the way to do it. Also, forcing people to employ yet ANOTHER damn utility is a PITA. Already to protect copyrights distributers employ PCF and UVS encoding. Now we'll have yet another bloody file to decode before we can use something? Erm.... this is getting beyond a joke and into the realms of daft. What's next? A Mike and Vickie dongle? Can't use the files unless you surrender key parts of your system to a plug in POS that screws with the mouse and modem ports? How about dial back? That's a popular tool. You buy an item and it dials DAZ to ask for permission before it installs? Yeah, that's the answer. Sorry. Not doing it. I would rather make endless nekkid vic in a temple renders than screw around even more than I already have to just to get something to work and I've been using this software for a few years. New users? Oh gods can anyone see the eruption of questions as these poor people get completely bamboozled with all this junk? I have always respected Daz and have got on with them fine over email when I've spoken to them. They've bent over backwards when I've had a problem with their store or just recently over hosting some of my models. Great people every one of them, but it seems to me that these nice people took a running jump at a wall just recently and are dazed and confused. BIGGEST complaint of the year. NO clothes that fit the damn morphs for the Milllenium figures. Not for ANY of them. Mike and Vic 1 have been out for ages and NO clothes that morph. Slowly a few started to arrive that were built over a morph setting. Mike and Vic 2 arrived with loads of new morphs and STILL NO CLOTHING. OK, eventually someone said they were converting the clothing packs and that took months. Tailor arrived and people were happy because they could now morph the clothing that couldn't be used before. NOW, we can't use it, can't use the clothes, can't produce more, can't share the damn things. Well, sorry. Fuck that. This is one of the very few occassions when I honestly and firmly believe that Daz have seriously screwed the pooch. I am not going to bend over and get shafted because I've spent my money on their models and now I'm told I have to spend MORE just to be able to use things in the future that I PAID for in the past. Not going to happen. I'll happily break their request if they force this issue. Free utility from Russ to help people distribute files? Why? Why the hell should people have to jump through even more hoops and go through even more steps and trouble just to use a piece of bloody clothing? And how much of all this bullshit is going to be overruled anyway IF Poser 5 has cloth dynamics built in? Are Daz going to then tell us we can't use Poser 5 because Mike 1 might, maybe, perhaps, could sort of, look like Mike 2 in a body suit? Can anyone see how pathetic this "could" get? It's not often I side with RonKnights, he'll probably be the first to agree with that, but on this issue I think he's actually got some valid points. As for the request for a new model. Female? What about Eve/Azura? Isn't she good enough already? She has the advanced joint parameters of Vickie and it shouldn't be too hard for some of the generous people around to make morphs so she can stand proud against Vic2. We need a guy, not another female. A guy to compete with Mike. Girls we got. Eve/Azura, Dina, DinaV and another I saw mentioned somewhere that I hadn't heard of. So, make a male model, morph the hell out of it. Stick it into public domain if you want and then let's see how much it takes before people take their big words and run with it. I think again Ron said something in another thread that kind sounds more likely than a PD model. We've paid for Vic and Mike and ALL their clothes and add-on packs. A HUGE investment for many people and an expensive one for some who don't have the incomes that are bandied about by certain members. I don't honestly think that anyone will turn away from Vic and Mike and Daz damn well know it. That's what's sad about this whole affair. People are now scurrying around to find a way to pacify Daz and pacify the people who are complaining so we can all have a happy happy joy joy filled forum again. Excuse me if I decide this time I'm going to be a needle on the floor that stabs people in the foot every time they tread on it. I DO feel trodden upon and I will bite back. I don't care what utility is written to pacify the lairds of Poser files, I don't want to have to use it. HAVE to use it being the operative word. FORCED to use it would be more accurate. I would MUCH rather purchase Tailor and support Codetwister than fuck around with god knows how many files how many times just to keep the peace. Right now though I'm not inclined to support anyone. Poser isn't stable enough for me to WANT to spend that much of my time. and I sure as hell don't want to have to go through this whole damn rigmarole every time I have to reinstall poser or I upgrade my system. I back up key parts of my computer. Windows and system areas, system utilities and mail databases. That's all I should HAVE to backup. The possibilities of really screwing the community are present now. The thumb screws are being tightened. Today Mike's body suit, tomorrow a dress suit, the day after, his trousers.... what then? People have already mentioned about combined clothing having the same effect as the body suit. That could be the next stumbling block and I really don't see why any of us should have to waste even more time faffing around with protecting a company's assets when that very company SOLD those assets to us in the first place. If you jump off a cliff and half way down suddenly realise that impacting on the ground below is going to hurt. You can't suddenly change your mind and fly back to the top of the cliff. Daz jumped. Now they realised that the ground IS hard and they might get a tad bruised. Sorry peeps. Tough titty. ----------------------------- Depakotez: Thanks for this effort, it's appreciated, regardless of my words above. It's a shame that you feel it is necessary to do this and that Daz have now forced this situation upon the community. Things were fine before. There are other ways around this and one of them is Daz admitting they screwed up, and living with it. Making sure that next time they don't make the same mistake. In general I see people wanting Mike 2 BECAUSE of his morphs. I don't see people FAKING it by sticking Mike 1 in Mike 2 morphed clothing and pretending he's Mike 2. Mike doesn't have the vast array of head morphs that Mike 2 has and he's not able to make the same or close characters. This is farcical nonsense, and regardless of whether Daz can or cannot legally enforce beans on anyone is immaterial. This is unreasonable of them. They're not gods. They're people, damned nice people, but people all the same, and like people they make mistakes. This is one of those mistakes and there is an easier solution than running around like a headless chicken trying to stop people doing what people haven't been doing. On that. I'm outta here.

My concerns over this issue are very personal. I finally released some humble Free Stuff characters for the first time, in over a year of fiddling with Poser. I figured it would be nice to include some Tailored clothes so the figures didn't need to go naked. Of course, the clothes, like the figure would be free. Now I am totally afraid to release any freebies at all. Why? Because DAZ is now engaging in Retroactive Policies. That means that DAZ can find a problem with something you or I have done, months or years after the fact. I've tried very hard to understand and abide by DAZ policies concerning figure creation and sharing. I never understood DAZ's instructions, and got blasted publicly for my ignorance. I released some figures, discovered the error of my ways, and fixed the problem on most. Then came the Tailor Situation. In March I posted a thread asking if there were any problems distributing Free Tailored versions of clothing. I was assured at that time it was ok. Now it's not. I've been struggling with the issues of how to prepare my new characters legally for close to a year, and I've gotten absolutely nowhere. It's not due to my lack of trying, it's due to the bewildering information and changing stances DAZ provides. I have removed all my freebies that would violate DAZ's Tailor Edict, and I may never create another freebie again. I just can't take the risk.

I predict that after July 25th, no one will be talking about this.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Again, it's easy to deny the most basic fact of this whole Tailor issue: DAZ will allow you to produce and distribute an article of clothing that circumvents the need to buy Michael 2. You just need to sign an exclusive brokering aqreement with DAZ. So why waste time developing utilities that will please DAZ?! The real solution is for all people who sell clothes to sign up with DAZ, and for bumbling newbies like myself to either stop giving away stuff, or to try out for the "big leagues."

Questor: I agree - especially the words after "Well, sorry." At some point it becomes a question for the lawyers. (Darn - knew I shoud have gone into law instead. According to a friend of mine who is a lawyer, even with a masters degree, that would take 4 years of law school as California won't just let you take the bar exam. I joked with him once about passing the bar by just not going in. He was not impressed - guess he'd heard it before.) We can only hope DAZ will reconsider.

Imckenzie: What's that?

Bikermouse, I think you'll find that lmckenzie is referring to the up and coming Siggraph show where some people believe that Poser5 will be aired. I'm inclined to think not, but CL "might" release some previews of the new version and the prediction is that everyone is going to be talking about Poser 5 and not the issue with Daz. He's probably right, except that some people will still be talking about it, just not as loudly or in threads that climb into 3 figures rapidly. :)

Nicely said, Quest. Also, appreciated Depa. It's a cool use of a utility, and one that would be appreciated six months ago under different circumstances. OR for different purposes. But not for this - not to cover Daz as a sop to a non existant problem that they have no grounds on. And... here's something else: As much as I like Maz's utility, even for it's origional purpose of distributing obj's, it IS a sop. All it requires is an obj to decode. Someone with a pirate copy of Mike or Vicki or whatever can decode a .pcf encoded file just as simply as someone with a legit copy. Doan think so? Ask a warez kitty. As far as all this goes, well gee... I own Mike1. I also own Massive Mike and I have Predator2k's TheDarkness figure. And there's Virus's bodybuilder and there's also Boris. And I'm willing to bet you that if I email Wyrm or Pred2k or Capsces and ask them if they mind if I use Tailor to support THEIR products and help increase their sales/download popularity [in the case of freebies for Predator's morphs], at least a couple of them will go "Sure... why not? My character can use the support that Mike 2 ripped off from it. It can probably use the new sales." Heh. The tech genie has flown, boys and girls. Even if Daz yanks Tailor from the market tomorrow and supresses it, it is code and it proves it can be done. And does anyone in this forum want to bet me real money that an enterprising C++ programmer can't write another prog that does the precise same thing, now that it's proven it can be done? Code is code - it may not work precisely the same way, because a different programmer will approach the coding differently, but it can be done. Do not throw money away on that bet. Now personally, I'm bound by the EULA I agreed to at the time of purchase of Mike 1 etc and if that EULA doesn't inculde the language that's included in future EULA updates, the future EULA isn't binding. As far as I'm concerned, we can make conforming items for Mike1 and Vicki1 under the usuage terms present at the time of purchase, and if a buyer wishes to use their legally purchaed version of Tailor to make them fit Mike2 and Vicki2... well, that's up to them. I'll guarantee you I won't market anything I make at Daz exclusively. And I doubt I'll bother PCF encoding my own designs and modeling. This was called monopolization and trade protectionism and lots of other horrid things when MicroSoft tried their best to make sure that the market went awya for anything except Outlook and InternetExplorer, and it's called the same thing when Daz decides that only they can make things fit their characters and they have a inherent right to control your and my modeling.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I have been a DAZ advocate for years. I love them, I love their work and I love the quality they produce. However... if they try to claim ownership of morph approximated using tailor... I will not buy anything else from them. The Tailor utility does not create anything that infringes upon their copyrights. The APPEARANCE of Michael 2 is NOT THE SAME AS MICHAEL 2!!! Just as an AMD processor is not an Intel processor, and a Segatte hard drive is not a Maxtor hard drive. Sure... they look alike... they work alike... but they're NOT THE SAME!!! They have NO LEGAL footing to stand on and in fact, they policy reeks of an attempt to MONOPOLIZE. Sorry... I don't like Microsoft for employing these tactics... and I don't appreciate DAZ using them... I'm sure they don't mind loosing a single customer... even one that has spent literally thousands of dollars with them... but I wanted to at least put in my opinion. That said... I understand their concern... they don't want to loose business. But face it, their reasoning is completely off. The people like me who are going to buy the high quality morphs, will keep doing it because we want high quality morphs for commercial renders. The people who don't care about high quality morphs... guess what... they probably weren't going to buy it anything... Screw the projections of lost profits. Besides... now much money are they REALLY loosing? How many people only own V1 and not V2? Or M1 and not M2? They are going to piss off people like me who spend over $1000 a year with them so that they can get an extra $40 from someone who makes a single purchase. Hmmm... makes perfect sense. Ok... I'm done ranting now. I guess RuntimeDNA will become my new favorite PoserPlace... especially since Traveller is over there now. And since I own Tailor, V2, M2, Stephanie and Aiko... I'll just make my own DAMN morphs!

This whole discussion has reached a new point for me. At least one merchant has offered to give me something from his/her store in return for my silence on this matter. No, I don't intend to take bribes. But I will shut up till tomorrow at least. Chad from DAZ is getting some much-needed rest, so there's nothing new on the table anyway.

Agreed totally with Ironbear and some from Ookami. I know, we're digressing from the purpose of this thread. I apologise for that as I feel partly responsible for it. Simple fact is though. Anyone who bought Mike1 and Vickie1 loved them after playing around for a while. When Mike 2 and Vickie 2 hit the market people shot off to buy them. Those who had the models recommended them highly to other users. Any reference I see in this and other forums asking about Mike and Vickie carries several promotional comments suggesting the purchase of Vic2 and Mike2 instead of the first couple - just because of the extra morphs and partly because of the inclusion of backwards compatibility in the P4 versions. So sales on version 1 of the mill figures logically should have dropped through the floor by now making the point of the whole argument rather moot. I don't know that I'd stop buying from Daz, but it is guaranteed that I will very very carefully consider WHAT I buy from them. Having said that, I really don't spend enough money to bother anyone if I stop. :)

As I understand the offer Ron, it's not for your silence but an offer to stop you posting new threads. Take the offer and remain in the current threads and join a new one when it starts rather than starting one. That way you get all the store items and don't break a verbal contract the person that made the offer. Sounds like a win win situation to me. Then again, I do have mercenary tendencies. :)

Questor: Well met and well said.(but are we better off with Ron, or his inevitable replacement? As nature abhores a vacuum he will be replaced . . . besides he fulfills a need - an example of how not to be.)

I'll refrain from commenting on that if you don't mind bikermouse. Ron and I have butted heads a few times in the past and got over it, he even forgave me for my request for an "ignore ronknights button". snicker I have no doubt we'll slam together on opposite sides in a future thread at some point, but for now I don't think he needs me sniping at him just after I agreed that he has a couple valid points. LOL. :) In all honesty, aside from his profound habit of posting multiple threads on the same topic (perhaps as a result of the bigger threads being too heavy for dialup?) I do agree with him on some things over this issue. Just put it down to hyperactivity as a result of concern and confusion.

questor: o.k. I will. An ignore ronknights button?(he-he) that's the ticket. Don't get me wrong, DAZ is no hero in this, but I'd rather spend my "Renderosity Time" constructively - I did speak out on this topic, a view that somewhat supports Ron's view in this case. I don't need to restate my viewpoint every day or so . . . bikermouse wanders off, trying to think of something constructive to do, wondering what Little Dragon et al are up to, while a song keeps playing somewhere in the background," . . . Raindrops keep falling on my head,but that does'nt mean . . ." .

I know what you mean about restating views daily. This is the first time I've commented on the whole thing, I'd originally promised myself to keep out of it but, well. Sometimes resistance IS futile. Spending time constructively. Hrrm. I remember doing that once, what seems like many moons ago. Must try it again one day. :)

Heh heh, bikermouse. LittleDragon is spending time constructively hanging out with me and Questor in the downtown bar at 3D-Arena. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

FYI, a Mac OS9 version of the utility I'm working on will be available shortly after the PC version.

Ironbear: A beer'd go down good about now, but I always wait 'til after noon. (Well it's noon somewhere I guess.) Questor: Think I'm gonna make me one o' them buttons, figure out a python script for it, impliment it and if it works offer it in freestuff . . . (nah, get in trouble if I did that - freedom of speech and all.) ah well, cheers.

pepsi - coke... Tylenol - generic brand. MCI - AT&T I for one am not going to run my products through yet another program - no way no how! I'll buy Dina first and hope that soon she will be given a fabulous wardrobe (but I figure that soon there would be free tailored items to fit her) and a better face. I am also well aware that despite the comment above of "What happens with DAZ distributed items is really up to them, so you're asking in the wrong place. However, I very much doubt DAZ would require encoding for anything they distribute themselves. " they will have to follow their own rules on this. If they require all items sold that are not brokered at DAZ to have this safe guard then legally they must instill these safeguards on those items they do broker or they have created an unfair marketability which will create a very lovely court battle. One can not say "you can't do this unless we have all rights...." In essence a modeller could sue them for unfair practices. Furthermore by not encoding the products themselves they are in essence saying "it's not really a problem" and the court system will see that they do not actually consider it a problem. Because unless their system checks and insures that you have previously bought M2 before allowing you to purchase the M2 bodysuit (an illegal invasion of privacy) then they have no way of knowing that I didn't just buy the M2 bodysuit to stick on M1.. Sorry MS tried that remember? didn't work for them either and they are alot more powerful with more money to fight their cause. If I were a modeller (and I'm not) I would continue along in the creation of clothes that fit and let them try to prove it in court. Obnoxious? Yes, worried - no, for several reasons. First of all, the first time they try to take this to court many of those who model clothing will back up a fellow modeller or run for the hills in regards to clothing for DAZ characters. So we will see a huge batch of clothes for new characters. Secondly, many will see a lawsuit against approximated morphs as an attempt to curb free enterprise and will no longer shop, support (via linking etc.) or refer DAZ in any manner. In the end when they lose (and I really have no doubt that they can not claim approximations as derivatives) the stain on their reputation will be such that they will never recover. But let's assume that in some twilight zone universe they win - so what, by winning they will lose because the modellers will not create for them and frankly most of DAZ's store is fueled by brokered creators. Try using a DAZ certificate there and see how hard it is to find anything non-brokered.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

****FYI, a Mac OS9 version of the utility I'm working on will be available shortly after the PC version **** Woopee fraggin' doo Russ, Are you actually paying attention or doing your usual steam along and ignore the unwashed masses act?

tosses over a sixpack It's always afternoon someplace, bikermouse. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

one more little note (brought up by something russ said at PP): The law recognizes assumption of allowances. So since DAZ has never previously said one could not create clothing that fit their models, they can not now take that stance. How long have modellers been creating for DAZ characters? How many DAZ items are "brokered" (which means that DAZ does not own the rights to them) & fit DAZ characters? How many years has DAZ had the knowledge that said items were being created and distributed with "approximated morphs to fit their models? Since they have allowed it for so long they have created an environment that allows for it now - no matter how it s done, as long as the actual morphs aren't being distributed. I'm not just talking about the 4 months that tailor has been out, but the years that DAZ/Zygote have allowed (and encouraged) people to create clothing that will fit their models. Lastly the law considers if a product lowers the value of the original, in this particular case it actually raises the value of the product. now I'm off to get a white russian - beer blech

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

I like the OS 9 version Questor :) .. Maybe I missed something though

Well said LSM. Good points. both times. :) Sorry Ghost, I wasn't knocking that there was a Mac version just that Russel has an irritating habit of completely ignoring large numbers of people and just posting for his own benefit. It gets tiresome after a while. Of course there needs to be a Mac version of utilities like this, but by posting so deep in this thread as he did the implication is that he read some of it yet chose to ignore the fact that some people are objecting to having to use yet another utility and the fact that the ever growing number of new users are already bedazzled by the number of tools around they need to get to grips with that this is just adding to the overall confusion and general mess. I wasn't focusing on the MacOS, but on the announcement itself. Sorry for any confusion there. :)

Questor: I created a simple yet effective button per your sugguestion. bear in mind its only a prototype but it works really well. Thanks for the idea.

Sheesh, guys. If you object to using a new utility, then DON'T USE IT. Why do you feel the need to ruin a thread where a small group of people are trying to create something that will be useful and have applications far beyond the present crisis? Why do you feel the need to prevent the creation of something? There are at least ten threads on this subject already, and you have turned this thread into a clone of all of those others, when it started out being something unique. There was no other thread looking at the technical aspects of this. Now you've turned this one into just one more totally worthless duplicate of ten that already exist. Someone asked if this solution would work for Macs, and Russel answered the question. Maybe the rest of you could just go back to all of the threads you already dominate without attempting to shout down those that contribute to the genuine purpose of this thread.

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It's got sod all to do with not using a utility that we or I don't want to use it's got everything to do with being FORCED to use it. FORCED to employ it to give or accept future files. FORCED to comply with a dodgy position that has already existed for some time and is now being stomped upon. As for raising the issues in this thread. This thread is intended to help solve those issues, so any objections are not only relevant but necessary. Knee jerk reactions are one of the things that this community is famous for. This "utility" is another knee jerk reaction to Daz's knee jerk reaction, and I for one am sick of having my balls kicked into my throat because someone can't handle that they're not making all the money. Don't like me being in this thread? Don't read me.

I know I didn't start this thread to endorse DAZ's current opinion, or to give a knee jerk reaction. Just to try and offer some means of 'coping' or working around/with the current stance of DAZ. As for working on the app with Russell to try and get a better, less step, solution using the principle of encoding.. Don't use it if you don't want. I know that it adds steps, and yet another tool among a growing sea. But, until DAZ changes their position this is just an attempt at a solution. I'm not asking for people to agree with DAZ. And, those that object to the creation of it can just not use it and ignore its' creation :) Tom

Sorry Depakotez, rather strangely perhaps, considering my stance on this. I do respect your efforts and those of Russel even if I don't particularly like some of Russel's habits. But as you say, this is an attempt to work around the current problem. Essentially this idea encodes a file for people to sell/share/whatever and the onus is on the receiver of that file to decode it. With your method there's some fiddling around to be done but it can be done with current software that is very well covered in tutorials and help. Russels solution adds yet another tool to the mix and results in an even steeper learning curve for people, simply to use a piece of clothing they own for a model they own. In that respect yes, within a short time there won't be a choice of whether or not to use the utility or technique. It'll be a matter of "I won't buy that item because I can't use it without this utility" See, it's not a choice on whether or not to employ the thing, people are going to be forced to use it, or NOT be able to use the models they PAID for. Personally I do support your purpose, and your idea, idealy this wouldn't be necessary, and shouldn't be necessary. The overall problem as I see it is the LACK of choice for people in this respect. Right now I can buy a piece of clothing or not. Doesn't matter. I don't have to faff around to use it. This way, I can't buy that clothing if I don't want to use another tool to get it into poser. I have no choice. Having said all that, and the noises I made above. It's waaaayyyy beyond time that I learned to model clothing so I can completely avoid this and future bull. Sorry to be so objectionable about this, but it is rather late in the day for "them" to be panicking over something that's far too late. The gate is open the horse has bolted. -- Addendum to earlier post. I had another go at your idea this evening, and it worked just fine. This time however I had nothing else loaded into ram, no software no utils. Now I get to load each one seperately to try again but I have a feeling the argument was with Dreamweaver not poser. RAM access argument. However your method worked on my computer so it wasn't anything in that method that caused the crash.

Questor, I really think you would be better off taking your objections to DAZ, rather than choosing your fellow Renderosity members who are simply trying to do something useful and beating them about the head and shoulders with your oppinions on a decision that wasn't made by them and which they can do nothing about. As I said, there are 10 threads already where you can say the sort of stuff you're saying. Why swamp this one? And why sink the knives into people who are just trying to provide another option for those that want it? You would prefer to have NO options? You would prefer to have only those options which are attractive to you? Why deny other people the options that they want to have? Depa, I notice MartinC has made an announcement about a similar utility he has been working on. You guys might want to check what he's doing to avoid duplication.

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Well, I think people know where I stand on the issue of rather we should have to use the encoding procedure or not. If people aren't clear I'll be happy to say so after they've reread my posts, and read the implied meaning :) But, since at this point they aren't changing their position ... As for the tool, this will actually possibly replace the original Mover and work for OBJs as well. So rather than become just another tool, I think it may have the potential of becoming like Mover+. It does what Mover did and more. Or at least that's the goal :) -- Whew, I'm glad to hear it isn't the process. Which would have been really odd since it would have been the only problem with it ;) Yeah Dreamweaver is a pain sometimes, using XM? Been looking into it myself. Tom

PS. Kupa has just made some announcements on P5. Frankly, it looks to me like a lot of Poser 4 stuff is going to look very old and primitive when P5 comes out. Maybe nobody will want any of DAZ's current stuff anyway.

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Ajax, Yeah I noticed that earlier. Didn't happen till after an email was sent to him, and RCook announced coding had began. Hopefully maybe after 2 years the minor changes can be made by him? Oh vell :) Whichever one works better I'll probably end up using myself. Odd though how his got a much more positive response... Tom

Ajax, Yeah this whole thing looks to be worthless conversation anyway LOL I hope that the dynamic cloth will work with existing clothing DROOOOL Tom

Depakotez Having seen a little of what MartinC is currently working on, I'm not convinced that this tool will replace Mover or become Mover+, but an alternative. It's always good to have alternatives. Heh, listen to me, a person who doesn't want one thing saying it's good to have two things. LOL Seriously though it is good what you're doing, I just find it hard swallowing someone elses boot when they shove it down my throat. I usually try to bite off the foot and get some protein with the leather. :) No, I haven't sprung for XM yet, this was version 4. I don't help develop websites anymore so haven't really seen the need to shell out for the upgrade. Ajax. I saw that, and yes, it is possible that P5 will make a lot of P4 stuff obsolete. But there's a hell of a lot of P4 stuff around and it's not likely to make Vic and Mike obsolete unless CL have found a new supplier of humanoid models, even then there's too much money invested in Vic and Mike to simply ditch them, tempting though that may be. Exciting stuff nonetheless. Nice of Kupa to post that thread as a taster and lighten the atmosphere, I just hope people accept what he's showing and don't badger him with thousands of endless questions. He's working a tension reliever, not a promotion. LOL

"Why do you feel the need to prevent the creation of something? " We aren't the ones doing that at all ajax.. We didn't say that creation had to stop or be changed, DAZ did. Now understand I am generally a huge DAZ fan, but I know monopolization when I see it. I do appreciate the time dep took - However, the point is that this is NOT a solution at all. It denies the illegality of DAZ's claim and in fact we're told this is how DAZ wants us to do it. Why? They have encourqaged clothing modellers to create clothes that fit all along, they have known about and encouraged the distribution of these clothes that fit in the current format they are in since Vicky 1 was created. So why now are they trying to say "nope changed our minds". These are the real issues - not the mover, not the tailor, those are blowing smoke over the real issues of DAZ's claims. The funny thing is they want us to use a utility that the creator intnded to be for personal use only and use it for commercial purposes to suit DAZ. They want MAZ to change his licensing as well. They want everyone else to do this - but they are not as of yet doing it themselves. So any post that says there is a "solution" to this problem is going to generate those who will show that it is not a solution by any means.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

depakotez, Thanks for the idea. It's much appreciated. The reason you had to propose it is not appreciated, but utterly not your fault. As Questor and LadySilverMage have said, it's nothing against you at all. It was thoughtful of you to look at ways to resolve the immediate problem since you can't assist with the underlying issue. I'm sorry if posts here sounded like they were against you at all. Cheers!

I'll second Crescent's sentiments if that's ok. :)

I know they are, but thanks everyone for stating it again :) Yeah I know, not many people are happy with DAZ's new stance, and I believe rightfully so. Cheers to you all too :) Tom

As it stands, DAZ has announced their new stance is basically to put some of these concerns on hold until things can be worked out. At least that's my own befuddled take on the announcment I'd read tonight. But then most of you have already read it I'm sure? As for Eowyn's offer: I apologize for all the emotional energy I expended, and all the new threads. Eowyn, and others have given me reason to stop, shake my head and catch my breath. Questor: I respect you tremendously. I just love all those wonderful weapons you gave us in the DAZ free stuff archives, etc. We won't always agree on everything, but that doesn't mean we'll always fight either. And any disagreements can be very short-lived when accompanied with strong mutual respect.

Bribes, argh, we're down to bribes? A small custom proxy server would be a better long term solution - but I only kid. I seldom agree with Ron but this place would be a little less interesting without his contributions. I think his unusual excess on this issue is only a sign of how seriously he feels about it. Passion is good, though perhaps in slightly smaller doses. I only have Mike 1 and have no real desire for Mike 2 so that particular issue is academic to me. IANAL (I just discovered that neticism) I am not a lawyer, but to those who keep talking about the hypothetical court case... I imagine a beautiful day in Salt Lake City, U.S. District Court for the District of Utah, Hon. Judge Dee Benson presiding. I assume a copyright case goes to federal court but IANAL. Twelve Utah citizens, good and true listen to hours of testimony about morphs, vertices, approximation etc. The lawyer for DAZ, a small Utah company puts up Ron's picture of the two Mikes in their body suits and says that this here fella, from say New York City, is ripping off their honest fellow Utah citizens to the tune of 40 bucks each time someone uses his infernal thinagamabob. "Not a large amount, good people, but it adds up and my clients are not a big company like Microsoft. See for yourselves, do the two Mikes not look virtually identical. Justice demands..." I certainly can't predict the ruling, but then again, IANAL. And so, good citizens of Poserville, I must adjourn until/unless someone comes up with something other than more lashes for this poor equine. Use my bandwidth wisely.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

P.S. I meant to say that although the Mike issue is academic to me, I understand people's concerns with the whole issue regarding morphed clothing.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Oh, crap....I had to go to Trinidad for two days, and, now, can't find the stupid thread where we get the answers....and, WOW...I missed so much...I can't read all this, although, I am interested. Depa...thanks for sharing this idea with the whole community. I have used the mover a time or two, but, have had some instances of getting errors.

Poppi, Yeah that's why we're working on the new app, regardless of the newest interpetation of the policies. Still can be useful I'm sure, and probably safe to use it if you're not sure of where your item would stand with DAZ ya know :) Oh and hope you had a good trip. Tom

Have they given the new policies, yet? I am trying to find them. Or, do I have to go to PoserPros, or someplace to read the "real" Daz stance? Trip was okay...nothing to write home about. Just hot, and, I did work. Trinidad isn't really all that special...maybe 20 years ago, or so...it has more crime than we do here, and, did i mention it was very hot? glad to be back in florida. now, just wish i could find that thread...link? did chadly or anyone else actually give a definitive answer? i am jet lagged...and, i am just seeing alot about poser 5...can't find the daz link...help, if you can!!!

The new policies are the same as the old policies with grey areas left wide open and a nice little hint of a threat left in that they are going to look again at the subject once Russel's app is ready. Almost no straight answers just a few hints that "it's ok while we're feeling magnanimous" and a lot of obfuscation. I've read the statement several times now and it's left gaping holes, half of the problem isn't addressed, there's a vague threat and a conciliatory tone plus some finger pointing at the not nice people who complained loudest. So, it ain't over yet folks. Not for a little while anyway. Oh well, it's just another day in the poser communities. What the heck. There are more fun things to do than read doublespeak and waffle and wonder about the future. To hell with it. I have better things to do than chase after smoke trails. I'll wait until Daz start jumping up and down again before commenting further. Good luck with what you're doing depakotez. It'll be interesting following development and how you address the problem. I might not like it, but I am paying attention. :)

Sorry Poppi, the statement is in the "Clarification from DAZ" thread. It's 200 odd posts deep, takes a while to load.

Yeah their new 'policy' is very gray, and open to people's slanted view on it. I agree on that. Like artical 3, that's the point of the mess and the least informative if you ask me. Of course I'm not good at reading a post that talks back on its' self so much :) Tom

Heh. I agree with you. It isn't easy. Even less so when so much of it can be interpreted anywhich way.

And, are they even fricken aware that any of us...with morph manager, and, objaction mover...could transfer all the v2, m2 morphs to v1, m1.....and SELL THEM????? forgive me...'tis the jetlag. and, the worry about my little poppi clothing pack, that i worked so hard on. and, when it is all perfect...really wanted to sell on my own...without any daz, or, anyone else telling me the automatically deserve 50%. okay...i'm gonna wade through that thread....geeze...don't we even rate our own thread? some of us have to actually work for a living, and, can't always read our bot mail.

poor poppi - get some sleep it'll be better in the morning.

"there's a vague threat and a conciliatory tone plus some finger pointing at the not nice people who complained loudest." Heh heh heh, Q. ;] Glad I'm not the only one that made that observation... "7) We also feel it is fairly obvious that a few extremely vocal people here have no sincere desire for us to address their concerns or answer their questions. " Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Or maybe that's just gas. belch

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

LMAO @ Bear and Q ;) Yeah, well you're being called 'paranoid' instead of 'vocal' elsewhere. lol

Chuckle Gotta love perspectives huh? ;) Tom

"Paranoid" I'll cheerfully accept. Along with "mercenary" and all those other horrid 4-letter words. I'm NEVER "vocal" though. ;] Afterall... this is all done in text. ;]p~~~

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

ditzy blonde expression Aren't semantics just wunnerful? ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Oh yeah. Example: Article 3 ;)