Dear Sirs As a consumer of product rather then a modeler I thought it constructive for Daz to get the point of view of someone not interested in the semantics of the situation, but the long lasting ramifications to those who only use the products to make pictures which are pleasing to themselves and others. I am a consumer of your products and have been very happy with them to date. In fact by my record this year to date I have spent $295.27 at your store, you will note that is significantly more then the original poser program itself cost. I have also been glad to spend at other communities significant moneys in additional products to enhance my experience with poser and especially your figures. It distresses me deeply your stand on outside vendors marketing clothing that is designed to conform precisely with your figures, as this is the biggest headache which poser users struggle with. I understand your stance on intellectual property, and the need to protect it. But I cannot believe that there is widespread enough abuse to merit such a stance and if any abuse exists it is likely by those unscrupulous enough to download illegal copies of your products in the first place. And for that type of criminal your restrictions will mean nothing. The people such restrictions fall hardest on are people like me who lawfully purchase products and gratefully download free stuff that skilled artisans lovingly produce for the betterment of the artistic community. The undercurrent of recent posts lead me to believe that such restrictions will lead to an attitude of why bother to do my best work if I have to get Dazs O.K. to distribute a piece of conforming clothing which covers more then X quantity of the body, by that time all the effort has gone into it and if they restrict my ability to distribute it as I see fit all that work will have gone to waste. I am not a modeler and I never will be. My talents and patience does not lead me in that direction. But one of the things that attracted me most to the poser medium was the sense of community that pervades every piece of artwork. When I create a piece I am in a sense creating a collage of works that is the effort the larger community in general and your company is a large part of that. It is my plea to you not to stifle that vibrant creative spark with the heavy handed restrictions your position in the community affords you, for too many restrictions will surely chafe at and eventually drive away the artistic spirit of this dynamic community. Though a vigorous stand on protection of intellectual property is within your rights, and may benefit you in the short run, It could well damage you in the long run. For you as well as the smallest private vendor rely on the goodwill of the community for the well-being of your business. wdupre

I agree. It always works properly when people make whatever they make for sale or free if there are no hang-ups like your rule of copyright. Then everyone is supporting each other. This is how it works as a common interst community. There has to be a good enough reason to buy your figures, such as everything out there that is made for them including your own products. You, DAZ3D, have cut those reasons WAY down. Now I hope makers start to turn to Vina D, a better model than Victoria anyway. And emulating a "shape" is not breaking a copyright. Alex

Very well said wdupre. I couldn't agree more.

wdupre, good post - intelligently written and heartfelt :) We are all locked into this community together. All these brushfires seem to be set into motion by too many "hypotheticals" and not enough "actuals". I don't want to necessarily see this consumer market reaching for alternatives by the direction this is going. But is does seem to me, as ardvarc37 and wdupre have stated very eloquently that we need each other.

.

And by the way, during the DAZ sale I have spent $249.29 according to all of my E-mail receipts. Aditionaly I bought Poser 4. Alex

I disagree, but only after much consideration and re-reading of all the posts. I don't see DAZ as heavy handed, but only trying to cover the bases. With the advent of the tailor it has become a possibility to copy ALL of the version 2 morphs to the bodysuits and then distribute the .cr2 with very little effort. Prior to the tailor DAZ wasn't worried about anyone doing this (imagine the work involved) Heck it is hard enough just to morph to one modified body shape. One last note - As far as I have seen DAZ has not singled anyone out for a lawsuit, nor has there even been a verbal attack. All I have seen was a company's concern that someone recreate one of their products using the original and then distributing that.

I too have never modeled anything. I'd like to, but doubt I'll ever figure it out. I also spend way too much money on this addiction. (No I haven't added it up. Scared to.) I've been trying to figure out this whole arguement, but have avoided saying anything since I still see conflicting reports. ...But I have to say I agree with wdupre he/she said it very well. I hope this gets cleared up soon. The lynch mob atmosphere is frustrating. D

That does make sense shadowcat. They are using good business sense in order to protect their right of distribution for profit, it is under U. S. law. I suspect they cought on to the capabilities of The Taylor quite a while back and then engineered a deal with codetwister in order to attain it. Maybe now they will work on it's destruction, I hope not. I beleive Poser 5 will have the same capability, what will DAZ do then? If it is the case then they will have to support the product that supports them, Thus setting the use of The Taylor free towards use in production.

Well said wdupre. I'm just not as level-headed to summarize my feelings in this way. ;) To shadowcat: The only one who distributes a bodysuit with all version 2 morphs is DAZ itself.

Daz has to consider tomorrow as well as today. Yes, only Daz sells the bodysuit. Do you blame them for trying to keep it that way. They just want to protect themselves. The truth is this goes beyond the bodysuit. I would really like to illistrate for everyone a bigger danger that Daz faces in this matter, but if I did someone might do it. I do not want to harm Daz's profits, they worked very hard to create a wonderful line of products that we all benefit from.

Consider this my signature added to a very well-written staement.

The truth is this goes beyond the bodysuit.

That is exactly what I fear.
I can't believe the whole issure is about a Mike 1 in a M2 bodysuit. For that matter you don't need Mike at all, just stick Dorks head, hands an feet on the M2 bodysuit and you are ready to go. confused

I have the feeling that there are other considerations behind this whole issure. I fear that some consolidation of market position at the expense of third party vendors and free stuff providers is one of those considerations.

I am sure that DAZ realise that the bulk of the community here are law abiding folks.You just need to read the various posts,previous to this situation,to realise that copyright issues are paramount.Communities such as Renderosity assist DAZ & other vendors by self-policing copyright materials.There have been several cases of "Misappropriation" highlighted recently. I appreciate DAZ's perspective but feel that if they do not allow a certain amount of "Artistic" leeway it will just encourage the distribution of Poser related material via P2P.I don't have Mike but if I wanted him ,& wasn't prepared to pay for him, I would download from P2P rather than cobbling a 2nd rate solution together from a bodysuit. DAZ also run the risk of the very talented users of this forum ,& others, developing non-copyrighted characters to replace Vicky/Mike,which would be commercially disasterous. Common/commercial sense should prevail here,Daz should appreciate we are not all pirates & we,Poser users, should continue to assist DAZ & other vendors by continuing to support them by buying their products & equally importantly, by highlighting any copyright infringements we come across.

Amen, amen and again, amen, Wdupre. Clear, concise and straight to the heart of the matter, which goes far deeper than M2 and Tailor : "It distresses me deeply your stand on outside vendors marketing clothing that is designed to conform precisely with your figures, as this is the biggest headache which poser users struggle with. " That is precisely what a lot us have been trying desperately to express lately - but never with such clarity as you. We hope we're wrong in our interpretation of the DAZ stand - but only DAZ can tell us that. DAZ is welcome to ignore all the other verbose threads on this matter, including my own, if they just answer this one with the same clarity and thoughtfulness as you have put into this.

It's a good statement and well thought out. Daz is in a tough position, they have to protect their copyright, and I support them and anyone else in that matter. However, and we knew there a however didn't we.:}, by attempting to copyright a shape, or at least giving the impression of trying to do that, they actually reduce the need for V2 and M2 drastically. Let me put that in context. The whole reason to buy both upgrades, is the additional morphs, and of course those have to be protected, from being redistributed, but by restricting 3rd party clothes makers from making well fitting clothing, and accessories, makes the morphs in effect useless, and unnecessary. Example, a character creator goes into a modelling program, creates a piece of clothing, that requires V2 or M2 and can accomodate the attendant full body morphs. Now that piece of clothing has a large demand from the V2 or M2 users. Deny that creator the right to do that, and they revert to V1 or M1, make their own character morphs, and the clothing to fit it, and the need for the "upgrades" V2 and M2 just flew out the window. The very business decision made to protect the use and need for V2 and M2, just made them useless instead, and left a large group of people who purchased them under the impression, clothing and accessories would be supported upset. Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing for Daz.

DAZ's stance is that Mike 1 can either directly borrow Mike 2's morphs from the bodysuit, or look like Mike 1 if he wears the suit. This problem exists no matter if the "offending" bodysuit is sold or given away. This problem exists whether DAZ or someone else distributes the suit. Right now DAZ is violating their own policy by releasing a morphing bodysuit. Of course that bodysuit is brokered for someone who has an exclusive deal with DAZ for all the morphing clothing for Mike, Vicky and the Millennium Girls. So let's backpedal here. It's ok to distribute a bodysuit that circumvents the need to buy Mike 2, as long as it's sold at the DAZ site? Huh?!

OKay.. I've been away for a few weeks, and am not very clear on all the details of what DAZ is doing.. but... For one thing, to echo wdupre's statement: "It distresses me deeply your stand on outside vendors marketing clothing that is designed to conform precisely with your figures, as this is the biggest headache which poser users struggle with." I have both M1, V1, M2 and V2, have purchased the clothing packs for M1 and V1, and have been utterly disheartened by not being able to use the body morphs for M2 specifically in the clothing. For example... the Olympian Clothing and the Adventurers Clothing... I may as well use M1 for these clothing packs, because they won't fit a "modified morph" of M2... In my opinion, either allow programs such as Taylor (oddly, an item that can be bought at DAZ now), and others that may come in the future, or post updates to previous buyers of these clothing packs to conform to the figures sold by DAZ, specifically V2, M2, and Stephanie. I am a very big fan of Daz, and if I had more money to spend, I would have their entire line of goods.. However, I don't, and I realize the "bottom line" is a big concern for business. Just seems to me that if I am understanding this whole thing, they are "cutting their own throat" with these types of restrictions. Just my 2 cents.. -Lee

"With the advent of the tailor it has become a possibility to copy ALL of the version 2 morphs.."

The Tailor does not copy morphs, but according to their policy even if you created the morphs by hand they would not like the CR2 distributed.

This is not a restriction they can enforce on original morphs or those created by the tailor either as long as they are in the form of deltas (CR2/MOR).

Yaah! Jeff, This is starting to look like the Ripper case, all over again. Pretty soon we'll all be walking around wearing T-shirts with the V2M2 source code on them. Tha'll be nice. Amazing! Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Gonna rename this the "Daz Forum" next week, Jeff? grin Just a wisecrack - I agree with your post 19. I've discussed morphs and how they work a lot in forums with you, Traveler, Nerd and others, and read every tute and FAQ I could find on it. And even discussed it with CuriousLabs. Just doesn't seem to matter - I don't think anyone is listening to us. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

You might be surprised who IS reading and listening Ironbear. :) Laughs and agrees with legume, who has probably said the most logical thing in the last four days. :)

Jeff and ironbear I do agree with you that as far as the law goes the position stated by daz last week is rather overreaching and probably indefensable. my letter went to the spirit of the matter that any attempt to overcontrol the use of their products would likely cause several modelers to curtail some of their more ambitious projects just to avoid the hassles of dealing with Daz's objections. Can you be sure that if Daz objects to an item in the marketplace that it won't be pulled by renderosity just to avoid hassles or animosity. knee jerk resposes aren't unknown even in this enlightened community. the sad fact of the matter is that those who want the version 2 morphs without paying for them will Just find them complete with the figures themself using peer to peer. they're all out there, including practicly every product in the marketplace. alienating the community who does buy your products and uses them in the proper maner seems to me to be shortsighted. my letter was just an attempt to offer them another point of view before any real damage is done, though the fact that products have already been pulled even if temporarily seems to support my unease. legume and others while your point on the longevity of these figures is valid I see them as at the beginning of their useful lifespan and not at the end I have invested a fair amount in these figures and if suddenly gifted modelers choose to use their talents elsewhere it can only split the community and my own resorces.

sorry that last line should have read if gifted modelers suddenly... :) not to infer that modelers become suddenly gifted.

Daz is in a very powerful position. They've created Vicky and Mike, which dominate the Poser market. Practically every image created uses one of these two figures. Rarely do people even use the standard Poser figures. They've built themselves a powerful stance in the 3D industry, and because of their paranoia, they're risking losing this foothold. I wonder, if this decision is carried out... how many people will venture into creating their own figures in hopes of becoming better than Daz. And with that, how many of them will succeed? I have a solution to this problem that Daz should look into. It would be winning situation for all who are involved. Perhaps discussing a deal with Poser for a new release that includes Mike and Vicky with the package. Of course, raising the price of the upgrade and giving Daz a portion of the sales. Curious Labs would win because of the added incentive to purchase the program. Daz would win because they're being compensated for their figures, and would actually make more money because those that wouldn't normally buy Mike and Vicky will be forced to if they want the upgrade. The consumers would win because the standard in place will remain, at the cost of a few extra dollars onto the upgrade. It'd be worth looking into as long as both parties can agree.

"this enlightened community" THIS community? Are you sure you know where you are? How many fingers am I holding up? - Sorry, couldn't resist :) -

Actually, my apologies wdupre - I really didn't intend to detract from what was a very well spoken post by you.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Just putting my signature of agreement on here. I think I ranted enough on this. Thanks for putting it so eloquently. I don't know how much I've purchased from the store this year, but it's probably at least as much as wdupre. (My log in is the same at Daz as here, in case they want to check.) Crescent

I think I see what Legume is getting at, Poser5 is just around the corner "hopefully", when it finally does arrive practically everything in the Daz store will be obscelete, if you remember the list of new features that was posted a while back it stated no millenium figures would be part of the basic package, they won't be needed, just like any clothing item for them will also not be needed. The Tailor program will be out too because of the "clothing creator" built into poser. Daz stands to lose a lot of business when poser 5 comes out, who wants a boring low res vicky or mike when you have a top of the range set of figures that make vicky/mike look like poser1 figures. Daz have been advised to do what they're doing to try to survive what happens with the release of P5, I really don't care anymore, I came to this site because of art like most people here & I'm going to ignore any thread that mentions the Daz/Tailor problem from now on. Rob

Absolutely, Legume - and that doesn't include all those better male figures! What? Oh, never mind...

alright I'm subtably impressed with P5. damn! wish I hadn't spent all that money at Daz now. better start saving my money for the upgrade. 1 cent, 2 cents, 3 cents...:)

wdupre- yup Daz is just trying to expand the lifetime of there product line. When the mystery model was released it was just a sex change for Mike. A way to quickly stuff the coffers a little more before the imminent death for the Mil set.

Thanks for the sincere input, wdupre. As someone interested in creating images, and not modeling, you represent the majority of DAZ customers and the group we are most interested in looking out for.

You will be happy to know that DAZ has tried not to be heavy handed in this situation, and recently made an allowance for our proprietary morphs to be distributed on clothing items until a utility is available for encrypting such files. You can read that at the bottom of the post DAZ made here: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=765731&Reply=770240#198

Thanks again for the input, and have a good night.

Rob Whisenant
Content Production Coordinator
DAZ Productions, Inc.

aka "rbtwhiz" [rbtwhiz.com]

PS- Legume, using the line "It was a person in this community that developed Joint-controlled morphs" in your crusade against DAZ doesn't really do much for your argument... In case you hadn't noticed, I took a position with them back in March. :) Oh, and in case you were referring to Charles as that person (and granted he deserves his due), I should point out that EMC was a joint effort. ERC, however, was not.

What Doc said, Rob. You designed a lot of innovations on your own time, along with Nerd and other, long before you went on Daz staff. Heya - take the kudos as your due and as it was intended, a compliment. Sure beats the rotten tomatoes that get slung around most of the time. ;] Pass along a good chunk of the kudos to Nerd also.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Good business sense, indeed! Let's get this right, shall we, DAZ had no problem with Tailor, originally, even though they apparently anticipated a problem. Hell, they even sell the damn thing. DAZ then decide that certain Tailor morphed clothing can cover Mike's entire body, thus giving you, in effect Mike 2 without having to buy him. Fair enough so far? Now here's the fly in the ointment. DAZ decide that this is a problem WHEN THEY DECIDE TO SELL A TAILOR MORPHED CLOTHING PAK FOR MIKE!!! "It's ok to distribute a bodysuit that circumvents the need to buy Mike 2, as long as it's sold at the DAZ site?" just about sums this whole thing up. Surely, we can now purchase this for a third of the price of Mike and transfer morphs to our collective hearts content. If this really is a problem, why have DAZ given us the means to do it? I wonder if Vicky's Tailor morphed clothing will become a problem when DAZ sells a Tailor morphed clothing pak for her. My guess is that if the morph is created without Tailor, DAZ is fine with it because they cannot duplicate it anyway, so they can't lose sales on their own non-Tailor morphed items. They are NOT protecting sales of Mike 2, but of the Tailor morphed clothing Pack. Of course, this is their right, but a pretty underhanded way of doing it, and a way that may very well backfire on them. Maybe they realise that they cannot copyright the morphs that Tailor produces. As X-perimentalman pointed out, the effect of this is actually likely to limit sales of Mike 2. It is a shame that they have taken this route, because they do produce some pretty good quality stuff, but if they now feel that they can stop us from producing much needed clothing to fit their Millenium figures, this whole 'community' idea falls apart. That is, it would if we really needed them. "if they want to play hardball, they might very well find that this community has a world-class baseball team of it's own." I like that, and couldn't have put it better myself.

Attached Link: http://store.daz3d.com/store/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=ZP1&Product_Code=ps_mo023b&Category

Vicky's Morphing Clothing Pack 1 already exists. It's brokered for John Brugioni, the same man who's done the other morphing clothing packs. If my feeble memory serves, this clothing pack has been out for a few months.

I am aware of Vicky's Morphing Clothes Pack, as I have it myself, but it was not created using The Tailor.That is why i reffered to a TAILOR MORPHED Clothes Pack. Though Vicky does not need one, Stephanie probably would.