***Brown Sugar Victoria 2 Collection by Dalinise > 20% off ($15.96) through 19 August ? Reg. Price $19.95 > DAZ is pleased to welcome Dalinise to our broker team with the release of her new Brown Sugar > Victoria 2 Collection. Explore the possibilities with these 9 exotic beauties from the dark > continent of Africa. Brown Sugar Victoria 2 is a very realistic and beautiful ethnic model, > excellent for facial close-up, as well as for all other posing purposes. This collection includes 4 > photo realistic head maps, a photo realistic body map, 9 character morphs, 4 eye maps, nail morphs, > and MAT/MOR files for applying head, body, and eye maps. "Brown sugar?" The "dark continent?" Is it just me, is this whole description a teeny bit, um, ethnically insensitive?

Umm, no need to lay the blame on DAZ, the 'Brown Sugar' items from the same vendor in the Renderosity MP have nearly the same description.

I've known ladies before that refered to themselves as "brown sugar," and Africa has been refered to as the "Dark Continent" for many years. I've always thought that refered to the difficulty in exploring parts of it, not the color of its people.

Is it just me, or is "another Utah moment from DAZ" just a teeny bit, um, geo-socially insensitive? Sorry to be a smartass, but I wanted to make a little point. Actually, your question is a good one. I don't care for "dark continent." In spite of jchimim's correct comment, the phrase has holdover connotations from the era of European imperialism when phrases like that implied more than just the difficulties of the continent's landscapes. "Brown sugar" is meant as a compliment. I've never heard black people protest that phrase. My best friend who is Afro-Am refers to herself as "sweet chocolate" and such, sometimes. It's meant to be cute, not derisive. Obviously the Stones song "Brown Sugar" is a song of admiration, not bigotry. Still, IMHO it's best in business (especially in the USA where we still haven't come to terms with these issues) to avoid such phrases, because you never know who you might turn off or offend. I can't imagine a texture for a Euro character being referred to as "White Sugar," can you? I used to find the name of the "Zulu" texture offensive until I realized that in the context of the Spanish man who designed it, it was meant to connote the strength and nobility of that tribe, not to characterize black men in a negative manner. I don't believe in being "color blind," because I think all human colors are attractive, but Mosca is probably correct that DAZ should avoid phrases like that. I'm sure they meant no wrong. I must say I've seen many, many disparaging remarks about DAZ just because they're in Utah, which people associate with Mormons, whom they obviously have bigotry towards.

Excuse me but what the hell do you call a "Utah moment" then????? It's ok to accuse them of something that offends you....but did it EVER occur to you that you are also using terminology that might just be offensive to them???!!! As the old saying goes...sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, and that is NOT a racial slur so don't even go there. Marque

"Still, IMHO it's best in business...to avoid such phrases" Agree xoconostle, it is unproffessional. (sp?)

It is always a little dangerous to wade into these things, but as one of a relatively small group of black poser users, I thought I would add my thoughts. "Dark Continent" does have difficult historical connotations; Jchimim is correct in indicating that it refered to the mysteriousness of the place to Europeans but unfortunately ignored that there were people who lived there already and who were familiar with the continent. There are excellent style manuals used by businesses and the press to avoid these terms. "Brown Sugar" is problematic. The issue is familiarity; calling a black person "brown sugar" who you know well is fine as is any pet name. Using the term as a generic of the appeal to Caucasians of black people seems to me like complimenting someone on their breasts i.e... best saved for those "private moments". It does strike me as a little unprofessional.

As a black American who studies issues such as the "Brown Sugar" contrioversy above. I think the problems of ethnic insensitivity with this title arise from 3 primary historical tendencies (at least here in the U.S.): 1. The tendency to regard all things WASPish (i.e. White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) as the unmarked and normative categories and anything non-WASPish as marked and aberrant. Thus, DAZ, Poser, and all businesses and institutions who market products aimed at or depicting WASPs images can market them as normative (i.e. ordinary, neutral, and supposedly universal) items. Other non-WASP products, therefore, become marked as abberations. (Compare the earlier cries for more body-types in this forum several years ago.) Here in the U.S., we call these things "ethnic"--They are either non-White, non-Anglo-Saxon, or non-Protestant.(This is why both the German and Irish immigrants at the turn of the century were labelled as "ethnic." They lacked only the moniker of being Anglo-Saxon and/or Protestant.) One can fault DAZ's marketting strategy here only for being uncritically consistent with the American tendency to believe that things white are necessarily unmarked, that is to say, neutral, ordinary and pure. (Strike 1) The second uncritical assumption that the "Brown Sugar" marketing ploy makes is the colonialist one. "Brown sugar," of course, references the colonialist history of the Carribean and American Southeast where British, French and American plantations imported African slaves to grow sugar. "Brown sugar" thus, synechdotally equates the African people with the product of their labor. This equation also recalls (and I think glorifies) this colonialist history. Many blacks, knowingly or not, use the term ironically (as we do others such as "nigger") to deflate this glorification of an evil history. While possible, it is much harder for whites to imply such an ironic usage b/c of the obvious problem of verifying their ideological stance on the issue. This, I think, is why blacks can call ourselves "niggers," but others, esp. whites, are generally not allowed to do so. (Strike 2) And finally, using the strategy of calling representations of blacks "Brown sugar" signals a potentially devastating implication (as with the plantation owners' use above) that undermines the uniquely human status of blacks. We are commodities, like sugar, cattle, or cotton who can be bought, sold, or traded without regard to our rights as rational intelligent beings. I haven't often heard of WASP women being openy regarded as "white sugar." And even the use of "sugar" as a term of endearment carries with it a sense social and emotional connection not found in calling someone, "brown sugar." Someone we can "sugar" remains intimately human. Someone we call "brown sugar" is alien, impersonal, and commodified. It lies at the intersection of sexism and racism. (Strike 3) Thus, for these reasons, I think DAZ (and the entire community actually) should rethink its marketting approach to promoting "ethnicity." To continue with these practices implicitly or explicitly, buys into the terrible history of murderous colonialism and racism that most of us reget and reject. this being said, I like DAZ, whether they are in Utah or not. --lordbyron

Bleh, there is such a thing as beeing to PC.

sorry but every time I see one of these threads it makes me feel sick, racism is only a problem for people who don't have a life outside their own head, & before anyone says it, it's not just white people who can be racist, I've come across my fair share of non white racists. mods either move this thread to OT or close it please before I really get started & say something that gets me banned permanently. Rob

C1rcle, I completely agree w/ your statement about non-white racist, but your argument is a "red herring" which tries avoid the problem w/ DAZ's present strategy. Don't run away from today's relevant issues. Help me correct this problem and I'll do my best to help you when black racists attack you. Sound fair? Axe, You too have a point. There is such a thing as being too politically correct. We haven't reached that point yet, not by a long shot.

lordbyron, everyone else... Has anyone thought to e-mail DAZ and ask them about this? Just a thought. /P

ok fair enough, it's not Daz that has the problem tho, that item has been around for a while with the same name & only now that Daz starts to sell it does it suddenly become a perceived problem, why was it not a problem when it was sold here? Rob

(had to amend it and re-post... Marque is cool - this was originally meant for Mosca.) Mosca: As someone who lives in Utah right now, I'd like to know what exactly you meant by that term. Now cough it up... am I some bible-thumping intolerant bigot? According to you, I apparently am. Guess I'd better get my barefoot and pregnant wives to get off their asses and go sew some sheets together for my next march, huh? Nice to know you've already pre-judged me and a half-million other non-mormons who just happen to live here. Nice to know you've pre-judged a vast majority of mormons, most of whom are more racially sensitive in social situations than you are. (Now - do you see the folly of using prejudice to point out what you percieve to be prejudice?)

Simple...I didn't see it here. And if I had, I probably wouldn't have said anything anyway. Doing so would have brought the item more exposure than leaving it alone. Everyone, even individuals I disagree w/ should be allowed to express their opinions, so long as they don't hurt others. But as a leading Poser merchant, DAZ gives the item the potential to be a lot more influential. DAZ's position gives it a much greater social responsibility not to propogate dangerous, antiquated (and potentially racist)views. But you make a good point about talking to DAZ. I will forward my letter to them ASAP. Thanks for the idea.

In all likelyhood the good people at Daz did not write the description for "brown sugar" Dalinise is the probable author. But in her defense she does need to express the fact that her character is of a color that is not common among the typical Vickys. Black, afro-american, african, pick your poison. How should she describe her character, can you do it better? I have seen complaints that there aren't enough "ethnic" characters out there, but now when someone creates one she is being flamed for it.

And since she does in fact use the same terminology shouldn't you also talk to the folks here at Renderosity? Marque

I know I'm going to regret sticking my nose in here, but give me a break. "Dark Continent" has long been a description to romanticize the Continent where deep, dark forests and mysteries abound. To me it gives the feeling of a far away, exotic place...gives me goose bumps just thinking about it. As for Brown Sugar...it's a name. I believe there is (or was) a singing groung by the same name with a little different spelling. Sheeesh!!

My idea of rebooting is kicking somebody in the butt twice!

Shadowcat, You raise a good caveat here. I desire to attack the label through which the product is sold, not the product itself. After all, there are simply not enough good "ethnic" textures for Vicky. Dalinise, DAZ,Curious Labs (and all other merchants)--Please continue to produce quality products, but I implore you to make a concerted effort to oppose the cultural mindset which forces these products to the margins of the Poser world. You can do this very simply in the labelling, presentation, and description of your products. It is sad when a good Black, Hispanic, Asian or whatever figure/texture/morph is seen as a specialty "extra" instead of a necessary component to universalize a wonderful product. p.s. As a guesture of my seriousness and good will towards those who would help me to improve what is essentially a good product, I promise to Dalinise and DAZ to buy your textures when you update your promotional strategy to sell it by changing the product's name.

But in her defense she does need to express the fact that her character is of a color that is not common among the typical Vickys. Black, afro-american, african, pick your poison. How should she describe her character, can you do it better? How about just giving the victoria one, and the michael one names, like Eowynn's ethnic characters...and letting the pictures be worth some words. i had to go check daz, before commenting...i think naming them BOTH brown sugar can be seen as a bit racist. when i first read this thread, i thought brown sugar was a female, only....on seeing a mike character, as well....well, brown sugar isn't just being used as a nickname, like honey, cinnamon, etc.

Excellent suggestion Poppi... Turn the "Brown sugar" characters into "people" (who have names) instead of caricatures to signify a whole race. This is a good start.

" racism is only a problem for people who don't have a life outside their own head," Tell that one to Nelson Mandela. I'm sure he'd find it very amusing. "Mosca: As someone who lives in Utah right now, I'd like to know what exactly you meant by that term." Utah is among the whitest states in the nation, and is politically, economically and socially dominated by the whitest major religion in America. I've spent some time there (friends of mine went to school at Utah), and I know for a fact that if you're not white, straight and LDS it's not the most diversity-friendly place in the world. That's what I meant. "Nice to know you've pre-judged a vast majority of mormons, most of whom are more racially sensitive in social situations than you are." Actually, I didn't say anything about the Mormons, but since you bring it up: how many African Americans are members of the LDS? How many hold church offices? And what would you know about my racial sensitivity in social situations? How would you even presume to know what my ethnicity is? And, for the record, I emailed DAZ about this before I posted here, suggesting that they apologize and rephrase the promo material for the products in question. Still no response.

Ack. I actually agree with Poppi. What is the world coming to?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/freestuff.ez?Form.Contrib=Penguinisto&Topsectionid=0

Speaking of which, I've had Audra's skin texture in Free Stuff for awhile - perhaps while the subject is up, someone could vet the description for me? (notice that I only use technical terminology... if anyone finds it offensive, please say so, suggest an alternative, and I'll rectify it.) /P

"Is it just me, or is "another Utah moment from DAZ" just a teeny bit, um, geo-socially insensitive? Sorry to be a smartass, but I wanted to make a little point." The difference is, you can move away from Utah. And what does "geo-socially insensitive" mean, anyway? You're not supposed to make fun of places? Not even Utah? How about France? This political-correctness thing has gone TOO FAR!

A slight retraction... Reviewing Dalinise's ad @ DAZ, I see that she does give here characters names, so I must apologize for note reading this section closely. My problems with the title, however, remains. How about "African Beauties" or "African Magic?" I was going to say..."Dark Magic," but this encounters similar racist Western preconceptions as "Brown Sugar." (i.e. the Church's condemnation of any non-Western and orthodox religions as demonic. You see...the problem is endemic our cultural views.) To quote Billy Joel, "We didn't start the fire/but gotta fight it."

lordbyron-- Good for you. Nothing like putting your money where your mouth is.

To clarify, though others have expressed more or less the same thing: my problem with the promo material is its silly exotification of African American women (would you call an Asian character "Yellow Silk?", or refer to China's "inscrutable mysteries?"); also, the term "brown sugar" is often used by white men to describe black women in a sexualized way; as in the Rolling Stones song, circa 1978, or whenever. A different standard ought to apply in 2002.

And one more thing: DAZ is responsible, ultimately, for the wya its products are presented on its website, and through its wmail promotions. I mention DAZ here specifically because I the above promo was emailed to me. If the same material is in the marketplace here, it should probably be changed, too.

(Hoo-boy... if THIS doesn't shove the thread into OT...) "Utah is among the whitest states in the nation, and is politically, economically and socially dominated by the whitest major religion in America." ...and that automatically makes us all bigots and Kluxers, right? After all, if there's not a whole lot of black folk around, then white folk are automatically free to be as hateful as they wanna be! Why must you compound your errors like this? " I've spent some time there (friends of mine went to school at Utah)" How much time? Obviously not very long, given your blanket accusations. I've been here for five years, and before I moved back here, for a three year period. "Actually, I didn't say anything about the Mormons, but since you bring it up: how many African Americans are members of the LDS?" I wasn't aware that religions had to adhere to affirmative action quotas. If I were to make a similarly foolish statement about, say, "Arabs being racist as a whole", and said: "after all, how many white members and leaders are there in the Islam?" It would be a stupid justification for my own hypothetical bigotry. What you're saying is just as bad. You're going to have to have a lot more facts than just insinuations based on general demographics. You may also want to check the percentage of Utahns who actually are members of the LDS faith... I suspect you'll be suprised. "And what would you know about my racial sensitivity in social situations? How would you even presume to know what my ethnicity is?" I was being generous - I am well aware of many Utahns who freak at the thought of even accidentally offending someone not of their own color - guess I was wrong in assuming you were'nt as hypersensitive than they. My bad. Incidentally, you just asked the same question I asked you, but you've rather failed to anwer: "How would you know?" After all, you made the bigoted generalization towards the place I happen to call home. If I were Polish and DAZ were a Polish company, what blanket statement would easily be assumed by the reader by your saying "Another Polish moment from DAZ"? I think we both know the answer, but you somehow cannot bring yourself to face it. You spoke from (presumed) anecdotes, but I'm speaking from the very place you spread your bigotry upon. I can walk out my front door right now and gather more information about what ordinary Utah is like in 30 seconds, than you could in a month of hard research. "And, for the record, I emailed DAZ about this before I posted here, suggesting that they apologize and rephrase the promo material for the products in question. Still no response." It's the weekend. Why aren't you at work right now? After all, if you expect them to be... Lookit - if you want to bag on DAZ, fine - just don't go making bigoted (and IMHO ignorant) remarks about those of us who live nearby. /P

"...American tendency to believe that things white are necessarily unmarked, that is to say, neutral, ordinary and pure." If that were true, we'd say "brown chocolate" and "chocolate" instead of "chocolate" and "white chocolate." It's not that things white are unmarked, it's that things common are unmarked. "'Brown sugar,' of course, references the colonialist history of the Carribean and American Southeast..." Lordbyron, you may read that into the phrase, but to assume Dalinise intended it that way is to insult all non-blacks (especially the manufacturers of brown sugar!) "...calling representations of blacks "Brown sugar" signals a potentially devastating implication (as with the plantation owners' use above) that undermines the uniquely human status of blacks. We are commodities, like sugar..." Sometimes a term of affection IS JUST a term of affection. When are we being too politically correct? When it gets in the way of open dialog because we have to worry about anything we say or do being misinterpreted.

Penguinnisto, As per my pledge to c1rcle (and responsibility to myself) I must agree with your strenuous defense of yourself and your neighbors. While Utah may have a reputation for a certain brand of racism, like many reputations often, it may be unwarranted. I am from Texas after all...our rep on race certainly isn't sterling. But it is my home and I love it. To attack DAZ for being in Utah, or even to attack Utah in a general condemnation w/o a specific case is patently unfair and a species of the illness I wish to cure. I may not be the biggest fan of Mormon history, but do know some good Mormons and non-Mormons in Utah. As a teacher of rhetoric, I see that Mosca is committing what rhetoricians call the "Pro pars toto" fallacy--unnecessarily attacking the whole for a problem in part of the mechanism. Please stop it, Mosca. I might agree w/ your intent, but not your methods.

"If I were to make a similarly foolish statement about, say, "Arabs being racist as a whole", and said: "after all, how many white members and leaders are there in the Islam?" It would be a stupid justification for my own hypothetical bigotry. What you're saying is just as bad." See: Circular Reasoning. When did I say anything about Utahns (Utahns?) being "racist as a whole?" A little hypersensitive, Pen? "Incidentally, you just asked the same question I asked you, but you've rather failed to anwer: "How would you know?"" See above. I made no statement regarding your personal ethnicity, OR your personal attitudes about persons of differing ethnicities. I'm not accusing anyone of being a racist or a Kluxer or having multiple barefoot wives--that's all YOU, reading between what you think the lines are. Are you suggesting that Utah, with its miniscule non-white population, is the global center of ethnic sensitivity? If it was, DAZ wouldn't have sent a mass email to all of its customers that contained racially charged and probably (judging from the reactions of some of the members here) insensitive language. I have to say, it interests me when people who haven't been accused of anything start defending themselves with such vigor. What's up with that?

Ah, well - Okay Mosca - I'll quit screwing with your head - I didn't notice you'd already cried "uncle" up there and mentioned something about the world becoming too-PC. Not like everyone else wasn't dropping hints already... Me, I just used the Utah thing with the same arguments that you yourself used to scream about something DAZ was apparently guilty of. I found no end to humor in the meme you launched the thread with - using one blanket statement to protest another. I'll sit back and watch now... /P

oh, yay!!!! someone agrees with me. oh yay!!! someone agrees with me!!! kidding aside....when i think of "brown sugar", first i think of heroin, and, second, i think of a whore on the corner....third, i think of something to put on top of a ham. i would have named the michael...something like "stagger lee"...and the vicki...well, i still like "honey".

lordbyron: I apologize for your being dragged into my little bit of semi-humor. I wanted to point out to Mosca the perils of being overly hysteric and hypersensitive over such a small and easily-corrected item. I suspect that DAZ will help effect the change you seek, though I find it kind of funny in the way it was originally broadcast. Incidentally, I noticed that there is another character up for sale at DAZ - a little white Milgirl named "Sugar"... ah, I'll shut up now :) /P

[ how many white members and leaders are there in the Islam?" ] Me!!!

---

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

Well, the header got your attention, Pen. And DAZ is located in Utah, no? So stone me for seeing a connection. lordbyron--God save us all from rhetoricians (how's that for a pro pars toto?). I don't think I attacked anyone--just pointed out what seemed a moment of insensitivity coming from a very white (and rectangular) spot on the planet. I wasn't claiming to be sensitive myself. Anyone who's been around here a while will tell you I'm most certainly not.

Oh, Lord Byron... one more thing I forgot to mention: I'm originally from Arkansas (Springdale to be exact.) The Air Force brought me out here, the woman I met and married convinced me to stay. I've been to San Antonio once (USAF boot camp), Houston lots (and lots, and lots) of times, and Dallas once. Where in TX do you live?

I'd never heard Brown Sugar as a sexual term. When I saw it, I thought of it the same way I thought of the Peaches and Cream package - just another semi-poetic description. Would calling it the Coffee Bean package or the Dark Cocoa package be any better? Why is it okay to have a white texture package with food descriptions but not a black texture package? Isn't that more racist? I can see how the Dark Continent could be seen as racist to some, but it's a romantic term for Africa without racists overtones to others. Of course, I consider the Exotic Far East to be a complimentary term, not an insult.

Oh, I didn't know she named the mike tex "brown sugar" as well.... that is confusing. I just went and looked closer at the package images & to me at least, she (vicky) looks more arab(?) than the "typical" afro-american, most likely due to the morphs involved. (Can't think of a more accurate word than typical at the moment, maybe stereotypical instead?) The skin tone does approximate the color of real brown sugar though. I also have a texture package, in the package there are Mat files that change the base colors only, so that they can be used with any map. why? mostly because there are so few tetures of color. Unfortunatly this method tends to "wash out" skin detail. I have being trying to figure out a better way of universally modifying existing textures for skin tones changes. (boy I strayed from my point there, but I'll leave it in anyway) Each mat file is named for foods of color, because locally at least this is how I have always heard people describe different skin tones. Have I ever heard anyone called "white sugar"? No, white sugar is called plain ole sugar, but I have heard a white person described as vanilla, cream, peach, milky etc. generally skin color has always been a food name the only exceptions I can think of is ebony & ivory from the piano keys.

Hi Mosca (and everyone) This is a great thread and important debate. I hope DAZ employees read it and think about things. Lordbyron's comments are especially enlightening and considerable. I respectfully disagree that it should be moved or locked; this is a real world Poser/graphics/social issue, even if it inflames some passions. It's so true that there are too few non-Euro textures and morphs out there. I'm sure "Brown Sugar" is a worthy product, it's just that the name and copy are problematic for the reasons already discussed. I remember seeing another DAZ texture described as "African-American," which is considered respectful, but then, not all black people are American. :) Mosca, to clarify, I said what I said about your charicature of Utah because I thought it was, as others have pointed out so well, slightly hypocritical. I'm not attacking you at all, not calling names, only hoping you to see that these things go in many directions. As a former Mormon who has spent some time in Utah I'm aware of the truths, misconceptions, and outright lies that are common about that church and its members. I'm very critical of it, myself, although I recognize most members to be very fine people. (I'm also painfully aware of its racist history, which accounts for the low black membership mentioned.) The thing is, potentially offensive caricature language was specifically your complaint, you see? "Geo-socially" coined, if expediently, by me in the heat of the moment to help express: You're did the same thing to Utah people (being insensitive, inappropriate in language) that you accused DAZ of, except as pertaining to locale and population rather than ethnicity. In spite of whatever appearances, I'm horribly un-PC, and am sometimes disgusted by its excesses. My points aren't "PC," they're in regard to fairness, respect, and trying to do the right thing by everyone. PC does go too far, but it goes too far as an E-Z label, too. Yes, I do think it's OK to make fun of places and people sometimes. It's just that when you're trying to make a certain point... (OK, enough, everyone gets the pic...) By the way, where are the great Latino textures? ;-)

Mosca, ROTFLMAO!!! "God save us all from rhetoricians!"--Indeed. Socrates couldn't have said it better. Can I use this when teaching it to my students? By definition any ethical rhetorician hates his profession, but does it anyway--like any ethical lawyer, I guess. Penguin-- I live in the best place in the state, Austin. How's this for hubris?

LOL! works wonders, Sir :) /P

Coffee Bean package or the Dark Cocoa package be any better? how about "hot cocoa", or "rich cocoa"? there is ALOT in a name/label. and, yeah, some folks equate "sugar" with "lovin". you can use brown sugar to make "toffee"...but, i think you use white sugar in "taffy"....ohhhh...and, "mocha mama"... there are tons of nice, even flattering names for an african/american character. a wee bit of thought, and, planning....and, actually REMEMBERING that we are all different would have been so nice. and, like...i truly mean it...when i release bubba....15 different ass scratching poses plus, a real cool pickup..... and his female counterpart crystall, who has wonderful poses buying the economy size sanitary napkins, standing in line for free cheese, and, the ever popular....breaking into her neighbor's trailer. that's objectionable. as much fun as it would be to DO that...i would not. people have feelings. names mean things. i think i have heard of even murders being committed because of "names".

That's not hubris, that's fact. Austin is the best place in TX. Now my brother in Houston is going to call me insensitive, dang...

""Brown sugar," of course, references the colonialist history of the Carribean and American Southeast where British, French and American plantations imported African slaves to grow sugar. "Brown sugar" thus, synechdotally equates the African people with the product of their labor." Strange. "Brown Sugar" in the context we're speaking of always meant sweet and brown. Like the phrase " the blacker the berry, the sweeter the fruit". I've heard that phrase used many times without there being any bigoted context. I think there is a bigger problem here, of being too PC. Soon everything will be described in only the most neutral of terms. Our language will not only lose its color, it will lose its flavor as well. There are simply some people who go searching for and will always find, in some obsure reference, offence in anything. I'm not saying insensitivity and bigotry doesn't happen, I'm just saying it's not always the case every time. Has anyone bothered to ask Dalinise what she thinks of all this?

Continuing with Momcat's question, did you ever think maybe Dal has a dark skinned friend that calls herself Brown Sugar? Some of you are way way to uptight. And jumping all over Daz over this is wrong in the first place since the first Brown Sugar package was sold here. I didn't see any flames when that one was released. Both sets are wonderful and Dal has done extraordinary work on them. Shame on all you who are flaming her.

did you ever think maybe Dal has a dark skinned friend that calls herself Brown Sugar? nope...and, i have 3 real world friends...okay, good girl buddies. two are from the carribean...trinidad....by way of ancestors from india. the third is part black,and, part italian. my dad...gasp....was 1/4 black. anyway....if some guy on the street...no matter WHAT he was driving....called anyone of my friends "brown sugar"....they'd be immediately alerted to his loser qualities. dalinese makes the textures that i like the best....they are awesome. i aspire to them. BUT...she may be very bad with words.

"if some guy on the street...no matter WHAT he was driving....called anyone of my friends "brown sugar"....they'd be immediately alerted to his loser qualities." Yup, but if it were used as a term of affection by an established boyfriend...

Wolf calls are wolf calls, no matter what the phrase, and are offensive. The same phrases used by intimates are terms of affection, and are not. My husband calls me honey, some of my friends call me sweetie, or hon. I have no problem with this. A stranger says this, or someone I don't know well, and it's a different story. It's all context.

aww geez lord byron, did you HAVE to go blow my misconception that the US educational system fails miserably with non wasp students? ( and most wasp students also ) been my own experience here that most non european ethnic group people are smart enough to be able to tell if a comment is ironic / humourous, or meant as a derogotory statement. ( personally, I enjoy telling ehtnic jokes to the group the joke is poking fun at, and not once has anyone taken offense at my doing so. ) I myself wouldn't have used the term "brown sugar" in an advertisement, it wouldn't have occured to me to do so. Mosca, better from Utah than arkansas. ~wink~

I think we are getting WAY TOO racially sensitive. Let's stop the political correctness.

If it makes any of you feel better, to us carnivores you all taste pretty much the same.

Hi there, I will point this out to someone on Monday. First I can assure you that, obviously, something offensive was not intended. I will point this out to someone on Monday. As many of you know I worked as a makeup artist for 10 years. One thing to keep in mind is the cosmetic industry. Here are some common names for cosmetic colors for light women: Porcelain Bisque Angel White Purity Winter Wheat Honey Suckle etc... Here are some comon names for cosmetic colors for dark women: Brown Sugar Coffee Cinnimon Stick Fudge Raisin Mocha Moonlight Forbidden etc... Lots of names that descibe skin tones refer to food. Brown Sugar is a food. I think our sensitivity to it is because it is sexy and was used in some films in the 70's. Wasn't it also a song? I don't think that is the case with this product. I think Dark Continent of Africa is really the same as saying "The Tanned Skin beaches of California" or "The Rosey faced landscapes of Ireland". But I will point this email out to someone on Monday. Anton Kisiel DAZ3D

-Anton, creator of ApolloMaximus: 32,000+ downloads since 3-13-07
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

NEW The Poser FaceInterMixer

Fyre-chan's gonna tork some people off, so if anyone wants to hit the bomb shelter now, I'll wait.
::waiting....::
OK, that should be enough time.

Mosca! I was getting worried! It's been a couple of months since you've stirred up some major trouble. Couldn't get biters on the "commercial textures for free items" complaint, huh? ::ducks::
I don't know Dalinise, so I went to look at her other products and her website. Given the way she writes and the small tidbits of what looks like a Germanic language in places on her site, I'd guess she's in Europe. I understand racial relations and language connotations are completely different there than in the US, and then you can add in misunderstands caused by translation.
Second, look at how the Brown Sugar textures started. I believe that first was a texture for Vicki and the Milgirls, and frankly, the kids look very sweet in it. "Sugar" seems fitting in that regard, and the skin tone is, well, brown, just like my skintone is a weird sickly white-peach-pink thing. I imagine Michael's "Brown Sugar" package was named that to tie into the earlier ones.
So...
Are the package names and "Dark Continent" references perhaps insensitive? Sure.
Does Dalinise need a little gentle enlightenment that it bothers some people? Sure.
Do I think Dalinise was intentionally being racist or trying to tork people off? No.
Do I think we need to get out the pitchforks and torches? No.
Do I think we maybe need to give Dalinise and anyone else in a similar situation in the future the benefit of the doubt and offer a gentle nudge in the right direction rather than burning at the stake? Yes.
Do I think I should shut up now after typing and then deleting several additional questions which REALLY would have gotten me in trouble? Oooh yeah.

Thanks Anton for you diligence. --lordbyron

This is always such an interesting place. Which is probably the main reason I visit so often. Larry F

First of all, thanks to all of those who jumped in and said what I am saying now. And for pointing this post out to me. I feel I have done nothing wrong, but will say what my vision is about this. Brown Sugar was in the first place a V2/Mil girls pack. The name was choosen to express how I loved the characters, sweet and exotic. I choose the name for the M2 pack also because of the familiarity with it and to link it to my old package. So that people would know that it was in the same line as the female package. The Dark Africa part was intended as in mysterious and the unknown mystical powers. As has been used for so many times to give expression to the deep forests and exotic, beautiful people. I had no clue as to how it would be interpreted by some in this way. As for my spelling and terms that I use, I am European and my english is fair but not great. But I like to think that most understand what I am saying and what I mean. DAZ was aware of the name and text and had no objections. But I will mention this post to DAZ and see what they say about it. Sincerely, Dalinise.

Is there a "Safe List" of ethnically correct verbiage that everyone can agree upon? One of the reasons I ask is because I grew up in an "ethnically diverse" neighborhood which consisted of a majority of "minorities" and, despite what term or level of PC terminology you used, someone would take offense to it. Therefore, since this type of discussion is more subjective than objective, I think we need to see a little more tolerance on both sides of the fence. Likewise, in one of my previous positions, I was involved in a similar discussion with someone who was trying to convince me that I was prejudice to all minorites simply because I have had a caucasian upbringing. All too often, presumptions and assumptions are made by some from their own vantage point vs those of the other parties involved. Much of this debate is contingent upon actions, terms, etc, from earlier periods in world history where these terms have have had adverse intentions. Although I regret that these occurrances happend - despite the fact that I personally had nothing to do with them - I can only see one solution to the issue: We must all strive to "clean the slate" and try to start over again. What has happened over 150-200 years ago is atrocious by today's standards, but no one living today had any affect or influence over that time period. Holding modern ethnicities responsible for past atrocities seems to be the hub upon which this debate relies upon; and is an imperfect approach at a solution. I believe that as one human race, we have striven to see the errors of the past and the vast majority of the world's populace has taken conscious steps to avoid repeating the errors of others. We all must come forth to the 21st Century and realize that we only have control of our own actions and minimal control over the actions of others. Any "categorizing", "generalizations", "labeling", "stereotyping", etc of one segment of the populace of another is going to result in adversity between the two. The best we can do is to try to come to some sort of compromise in which the greatest percentage of people can agree upon. Another brief point, I hope, is that this debate seems to be over the use of words and their negative connotations. Words are mere representations in text or other media to describe, as closely as possible, the intent of the individual using them. Words themself carry no emotional baggage except for the weight that the observer puts on them. We have to start to disassociate our own personal "emotional baggage" that we attach to words from words used by others. Simply discussing these differences between the parties involved usually equates to a real solution 90% of them time. The other 10% can be attributed to human behavior or other factors.

"We must all strive to "clean the slate" and try to start over again. What has happened over 150-200 years ago is atrocious by today's standards, but no one living today had any affect or influence over that time period. Holding modern ethnicities responsible for past atrocities seems to be the hub upon which this debate relies upon; and is an imperfect approach at a solution." Part of the point is that the descendents of the oppressors still benefit substantially from the actions of their ancestors, in terms of wealth, property and privilege most anglos simply take for granted. There's still a lot of levelling to do, if we really want to talk about "equality" and "justice" in this country. History is history, except when people are rioting in the streets of L.A. or Philly or Detroit or Cincinnati.

Mosca, you can't tell who is a descendent of an oppressor and who is not just by looking at them. A large number of White people in the US came here AFTER the Civil War and their ancestors never had slaves. A good number of Blacks also came here after slavery was outlawed, so they may have been discriminated against, but not truly oppressed. A good part of my family is German and Jewish - 2 groups discriminated against in the US for centuries. Because of my skin color though, (I practically disappear in fresh snow), I'm not obviously part of a group that was historically oppressed. Was it as bad for my ancestors as it was for Blacks? Not in the US, but Europe wasn't exactly fun and games for them. Don't forget that many countries in Africa practiced slavery in the past - a few still do, such as Sudan. This started well before the Europeans showed up. Some of the Blacks in the US have ancestors who were the oppressors, not the oppressed. It's just not as cut and dried as White = oppressor, Black = oppressed.

ROTFLMAO! Mosca, you still don't get it. Please... continue, with luck, I can keep meself entertained for a week. I find it funny because most folks prefer to think that they live in the present, and for the future... not wallowing in the past and claiming overly-hurt feelings over the smallest (and in this case innocently-made) comments. I tried to teach by satirical exampel, but apparently it didn't soak in. Therefore, perhaps a more direct approach is in order: Get over yourselves. While you're sitting here expending zillions of BTU's of emotional energy on trivia, there are very real problems in the world that can be solved if you each cared 1/10,000,000th as much as you do about "Brown Sugar". I mean, if you really want to claim to give a damn, and if you really want to expend emotional energy on something, I can give y'all a truckload of far more worthy examples than Mosca's hypersensitive PC-besotten troll. Or... you can continue to dance around each other, claiming that politically correct verbiage on one little artistic item up for sale on a couple of little websites is more important to the black folk at large than, say, ending the burgeoning slave industry in Sudan, or perhaps ending the AIDS pandemic that is currently eating the entire continent of Africa alive. The choice is yours... /P

Haven't you guys noticed yet that whenever Mosca gets bored, he starts something... and if there is nothing real to gripe about, he invents it? Ignore him and he might go away... but answering him means encouringing his follies.

L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.

Dear Dalinise: I wanted to thank you a) for replying to this convoluted thread, b) for making black characters (try illustrating tropical diseases in a talk without having figures who are dark), and c) for listening to the interests of the black users of Poser. I don't think you or Daz did anything wrong or meant any ill will whatsoever. I view this more like correcting someone for mispronouncing my name; my guess is that Daz doesn't have a whole lot of black people to even ask about these things. This thread seems like it has gotten much too personal at various points. Finally, is this an important topic? Well, even though your characters are beautifully done and I will purchase then, when I saw the name and a black face, I passed over them because I thought it was another one of those Vicky or Michael's in blackface. There is a Roman centurion on the same page;is it important if the costuming is accurate? Plenty of people will buy it any way... None of this is going to solve the great world problems but it might encourage your less than typical Poser user to buy your product Respectfully nemesis10

Hi Dalinise, As someone who posted opinions and observations in this thread, I want to say thanks for your comments. I know you're cool and meant no wrong, and your textures are things of beauty. It was great to hear your perspective. Thanks also to Anton for his informed comments and commitment to raise the issue at DAZ. If nothing changes at DAZ I think we should let this go and agree that we had a good debate. Now for the cranky part. Those who jumped in to say "you're too PC blah blah blah" with nothing more substantial to add, or who used the occasion to attack Mosca and Lordbyron in a dismissive way ... you are wrong. If anything, those sorts of attacks are censorial in that they dismiss issues which really are worthy of consideration. I'd suggest that if all you have to say is something like "you people are silly and oversensitive," it's probably better not to say anything at all. You're not going to stop the discussion, you have nothing to add but your attitude, and it doesn't exactly make you appear intelligent or articulate. Since I was mildly critical over the Utah thing before, I'd now like to thank Mosca for raising one of the more interesting issues I've ever seen discussed here. Props also to everyone who had substantial and interesting opinions in the thread. In my opinion, "this isn't worthy of discussion" is not a substantial opinion. :-)

Crescent-- In the U.S., if you're white, you're still the beneficiary of the racist principles under which the nation was founded; your ancestors and their children had opportunities that blacks didn't (not to mention Native Americans, who were too busy being dead). Peng-- Whatever. I'm always amused by those who post long messages complaining that others' posts aren't worth the time it took to write them. Seems like your whole strategy here is to attack (and/or patronize) the messenger and not address the message, which abviously you couldn't care less about. Fine--that's your business. But I'll post what I want, and if something riles me I'm highly unlikely, as you ought to know by now, to keep my big yap shut about it.

Thanks for addressing this; I don't fault your intentions in any way--I'm sure you meant no offense to anyone. DAZ, as a U.S. based company, should have known better, though. I'll put my money where my mouth is, too--if DAZ changes the promo material, I'll happily buy the package, which looks like a great value; the texture's flat-out gorgeous, as are the MORs. And, if it makes you feel any better, it looks like you and DAZ aren't the only ones in this community that could stand a bit of consciousness-raising. Yeesh.

Every nationality in every culture at one point or another had slavery or their version of it. If everyone in the world held current descendants responsible for the actions of their ancestors, we would be in a never-ending battle for litigation and compensation. I find "anglo-saxon", or variations thereof, nondescript for the majority of the people being discussed that are caucasians who, for generations, have been American citizens. After several hundred years and generations living in this country, we are Americans; nothing more, nothing less. All Americans, indeed the world at large, benefit from the past, even the darkest of periods. It seems that it is often overlooked that many caucasians and other nationalities fought on behalf of the slaves to offer them freedom and the same rights of any American citizen. It is rare if ever announced that these "Anglo-Saxons" attempted to champion the cause for equality of all natiojnalities, and still do today. This "black and white" situation is very far from it. By allowing these tensions to remain, you are only propagating and amplifying the disservices that have already been done. We need to change what we are doing now and tomorrow, since we cannot change what we did yesterday. Personally, I think the majority of the ethnic groups accused of these incidents have matured to the point that they realize the wrong that was done and have made immense strides in modifying their behaviors. However, a vast minority of those who were "oppressed" - indeed some who, in all likelihood, are not even descendants of the oppressed - seem to make it their personal mission to continue to allow these actions to influence the present; demanding recompense from people who had nothing to do with the orignal offense in the first place. All I am suggesting is that we cannot change the past, but we can influence the present and future. Live for today, to make tomorrow a better place for everyone.

"Seems like your whole strategy here is to attack (and/or patronize) the messenger and not address the message, which abviously you couldn't care less about." My whole "strategy" here is self-amusement, if you must know. At 65 wpm, I can write quite a lot in a little time. These ScanWit film scanners, while amazing little items, are way too damned slow sometimes... leaves me lots of slack-time during batch jobs. The only serious messages I'd posted in this whole affair consisted of "has anyone wrote DAZ about this", and the one previous to this, in which I expressed just how petty and insignificant your "message" was when compared to the real problems faced by the black folk as a whole. So... now that you've "raised everyone's conciousness", but about what? Racism? Hatred? Bigotry? Do Tell... if this little Vicky character is the absolute best example you can find from which to "raise conciousness", then I'm appreciably underwhelmed. But please, I beg you, continue to provide me with more fodder - for I think I've played every flash game in existence today... ;) /P

Wonder if white sugar ever caused such a mess. Cube sugar? Icing sugar?

My skin is 109,59,9 (RGB) or 6D3B09 (web safe) Sometimes I want characters who are a little more 247,200,154 (RGB) or F7C89A (web safe). Sometimes I want them more 247,220 154 (RGB) or F7DC9A (web safe). Of course, the last time I went up to a woman and complemented her on her beautiful 247,200,154 skin, she slapped the crap out of me because she thought I was referring to something else. Sometimes you just can't win.

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

Dalinise, As one of the more vocal critics of your product's name and marketing strategy, I, like the others, must thank you for taking to share your perspective on this important issue. If I have not made it clear yet, I do think that DAZ's and your intentions were innocent and well-meant. I respect both you and your work. However, because the world is an imperfect place full of hatred and pain, unfortunately, (and I truly sigh even saying this and wish I did not have to)innocence and good will, by themselves, are not enough to sustain goodness in the world. They must be the roots and stem of positive actions and their consequences. As a poet myself I understand and applaud your desire to convey "[the] sweet[ness] and exotic [nature] of your characters" or your longing to express "[the] mysterious and the unknown mystical powers" that "Dark Africa" represents to the European mind. You wish, like Baudelaire, Gaugin, or Cezanne before you,[Please forgive me. I study French and English literature.] to breath in the "parfum exotique" which can color your world with more excitment. But this desire, like the desires of earlier centuries to possess exotic spices, perfumes, or fabrics is not free. Such poetic beauty has a terrible dark side which continues even today to wage a terrible cost on the lives of those you have objectified as "the Other." Imagine all you wish, but open your mouth or paint a picture to express your desires and someone else who does not possess you basic good will uses your "sweet and exotic" characters to justify our "imbecilic and inhuman" nature. You wish to convey our "mysterious and the unknown mystical powers" becomes the rationale for why we are "evil and demonic" forces who must be subjugated. What I have explained is no thought experiment. It is the actual history of this "Dark Continent." The mindset which saw Africa and its citizens as "sweet and exotic" is the very same one which enslaved or destroyed them. And for every Baudelaire, Gaugin, or Cezanne there is a Thomas Hardy, Daniel Defoe, or Emperor Leopold (of Belgium) who described or implemented an almost genocidal slaughter in the name of the principles you espouse. This exotification of Africa, Asia, or the Americas is silly and dangerous. Please, continue to dream. This artistic desire is the essence of your innocence and good will. However, please be circumspect in how you convey these dreams. For these words (and pictures) will have a greater effect on the world than you know. Certainly, this is not my typical rational argument. It is more artistic in its movement from cause to effect than my earlier posts. But as a rhetorician, I make it my goal to try and convey my thoughts in a language my audience understands and respects. My earlier posts didn't seem to help you understand my concerns. I hope this does better. I only ask the same of you. Thanks for your attention and for trying to understand my perspective. (Not everyone has been so generous on this forum.) And thanks for your hard work. As I stated earlier, I intend to purchase your textures when you amend your promotional strategy for them. I stand by this intention. with sincere friendship, --lordbyron

Very elquent and poetic, however the theme remains the same. Perhaps instead of redefining the issue, over and over, we could define a solution? What would be adequate compensation and/or retribution that modern-day descendants of the "aggressors" could possibly provide that would appease the descendants of the "oppressed" to the point that this is no longer an issue between our cultures? I think we have a pretty good idea as to everyones' stance, however every attempt at offering a solution, thusfar, seems to have fallen on deaf ears, er eyes. There are those of us of every nationality and culture who sincerely desire to put this issue to a rest so that the generations to come can finally live in peace and harmony.

Cyber, While I applaud your efforts at reconciliation, the "monetary" model implied by your question of compensation is an inappropriate analogy for the problem. A closer analogy, I think, is that of a spouse who has been wounded by the infidelity of the other (and who still desires to stay together.) There is no one instance or action that the other can accomplish to regain the lost trust of the other. Any hope of reconciliation lies only in a patient and slow attempt to regain the other's confidence. The injured spouse may forgive, but hardly ever forgets the history of ill-treatment and abused confidence. So, to answer your question concerning appropriate compensation, I would answer that your "aggressors" should: (1) Try to understand why we feel the resentment we do. (2) Act consistently over time w/contrition to demonstrate that you no longer desire (openly or covertly) to injure us as you have (and as we see it, continue to do.) (3) Do your best to correct the whole history of wrongs and evil actions you have caused. (5) Remember, in the West at least, you have spent nearly 400 years committing acts of terror and genocide. It may take a similarly long time for many of those you have injured to sufficiently trust you again. 20, 30 or even 40 years of half-hearted lipservice to reconciliation is hardly enough time. This seems like fair compensation to me.

Lol, Bobasaur! I have a question. Can anyone here tell me please about any one group of people who have never been opressed by another group of people? Someone mentioned that merely being caucasian means having benefitted from the opression of others, or something of that sort. Does that mean that everyone who is caucasian should carry the guilt of their ancestors around like a millstone for eternity? Sorry. I don't buy it. I treat all the people I interact with with the respect and courtesy they deserve (most of the time. Everyone has bad days), and I expect my children to do the same. Color or ethnicity is irrelevent. It's icing on the cake as far as we are concerned; decoration. If I am not to judge others by the color of their skin, why should I be judged on mine? Which happens to be somewhere in the neighborhood of EFD5C7 if it matters to anyone. The other people in my neighborhood tend to range anywhere between 7B5533, and E3C595, though the majority are B98E5F. They really don't seem to care about my EFD5C7, any more than I care about their 7B5533->B98E5F. I really don't see why it should be such a fuss. >^_~

(shrug) - My own Teutonic/Swiss ancestry was oppressed by the Romans back in 200BC, and by the Vandals, Goths in 200AD. The Huns then had a go at 'em in 400 AD. Obviously, one would be hard-pressed to point out exactly where the Italian, French, Bulgarian, and Hungarian governments are profiting right now from that oppression, yes? So - I have a question here, a serious question: How much time will it take before I can see the end of having undeserved guilt forced upon me because of some random genetic accident of being born a certain color or ethnicity? I mean no offense, but I for one refuse to feel guilt for acts and deeds not committed by myself (or my ancestry for that matter...) Pity for the oppressed of all peoples throughout history, yes. Empathy for the same peoples, yes. Guilt? No. 'tis not my fault, 'tis not my burden to bear. I prefer to deal with everyone on an equal basis, as Dr. Martin Luther King himself had preferred. So I ask again of everyone here - how long? Until the last of those who lived during the Selma marches die off? Until the last of those who were the sons and daughters of the Watts rioters die off? Tell me when - set a date. I will then look forward to that date, and look forward to the day when the term "specific race" as applies to humanity is as antiquated as the memory of General Ludd. It will be looked forward to as a day when race hustlers and scam artists of any color become the deserved objects of public mockery, not the "leaders" they are exalted as today. Lookit guys... perhaps instead of waiting for that day to come, we can instead work to make that day come earlier. It would help by not jeering those brave few who do advocate individual effort, love of fellow man no matter what, rejection of "victimhood", and equality over all as "Uncle Toms", "Self-Hating", and if they're not black, "Bigots" (depending on color, natch.) ...and that's how I feel about the whole silly thing as it has spiralled waaaay out of proportion. /P

I dip in this pool yet again... I don't think I particularly want anyone's guilt and I agree that all of this stuff (race, sex, nationality, religion, political ideology) is a pretty trivial compared to the important things in life such as staying alive, advancing knowledge and art, feeding the starving etc... One major benefit of this discussion is that I probably would have never known that there were other black Poser users... I did want to add some observations. It seems to me that we are using "black" in two different ways; my skin tone is a golden brown with reddish brown hair and hazel green eyes but I am black in the way that a caucasian is not necessarily from the Caucasus'. This is my history, my culture, my parents and great-great grandparents (okay, some of them). Second, I think this thread originally started as being about the concept of politeness i.e... if Mrs. Jones likes to be refered to as Mrs. Jones, you don't call her by her first name and never as "Brown Sugar". Third, we all like Daz and would all like them to sell as many products to as many people as possible so politeness benefits them too!

i don't think any of the ladies of anglo descent would enjoy having a figure at daz, with their coloring, called "vanilla creamin'" and the guys....LESS. nemesis...you hit it on the head...if someone wants to call you some sort of "sugar".....they better know you alot better than off the street, or, on the internet. otherwise, they sure look like a fool. i think in part, some of this thread was by well meaning folks who do not want either daz, or, dalinese...looking like a fool. if we, as a community of drug....strike that...poser users ever want to be taken seriously among the rest of the 3d community....we better quit with gaffs like this latest.

So - I have a question here, a serious question: How much time will it take before I can see the end of having undeserved guilt forced upon me because of some random genetic accident of being born a certain color or ethnicity? perhaps, when they have nothing to feel "angry" about. many, shoot, most of us are still a bit, or lots of bits angry about what 9-11 did to our lives, and, in many instances our savings and investments. and, what it did to our peace of mind...the safety we all, as americans had taken for granted? that died. racial issues, here, are not as inflamed, as they were 30, 40, 50 years ago. yet, many of us have taken a stance, somewhere along the paths of our lives. we lived through it. we feel safe with it. it's from a past, kinder time in our lives. so, don't try and demean this thread, and what it may mean to each different individual who responds.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=8977

Actually, there is a texture set called "Cream." "...in the West at least, you have spent nearly 400 years committing acts of terror and genocide." I submit that the entire human race has been committing these acts much longer than 400 years. Sad, but true. There will be racial/ethnic/religious tension as long as: 1) People do not respect each other as individuals. We are much more than our race, religion, and gender. Stereotypes are a lazy way to avoid getting to know an individual. They lesson us all. 2) Anyone wants to "feel better" about themselves by putting down others because of their race, religion, or gender. 3) There are people out there trying to "stir the pot" by finding ANY excuse to feel victimized. People who do this alienate others who may have been friends otherwise. Quite frankly, if I have to worry about accidently offending you every time we have a conversation, I'd rather avoid the conversation entirely. There's plenty of fun people to talk to (of all ethnic groups and genders) without that worry. And on grocery labeling, what are we supposed to do? put down those hex values for colors that bobasuar started? The ingredient lists on food is hard enough to read already. CHEERS!

For those who do not read rendered Sign Language all that well, the hands spell out PEACE (clockwise from top). This thread gave me the inspiration. I apologize to anyone who may find any portion of the attached graphic as being offensive in any way. The purpose of the graphic is to show that all nations co-exist and the world can have peace, if everyone is willing to work at it. The use of the US flag's texture is an indication that American's have descended from nearly, if not every country on the face of the globe. ===== Credits: Composition: myself Earth: dreamer2jmc@home.com Flag and US Flag Texture: Mab Graphics Hand Pigmentation: various pictures on the Net Inspiration: Everyone who participated in this thread National Flags: CIA If I missed anyone, I apologize.

I have to confess that I haven't been able to follow this thread as closely as I should. However, first, thank you Cyberstretch for reminding us that we are all on the same side here citizens of earth and poser users. I don't think race will go away; perhaps it will become like hair color. However, our history is our legacy; perhaps we should view this like dining in a city where you can choose barbeque, pizza, or vegetarian and be glad of the variety?

lordbyron, Being a seemingly learned and enlightened individual as you appear to be, I am astonished that you would believe that I or anyone else would feel that any monetary transaction could ever compensate one human for the loss or otherwise dispicable treatment of another. I find it amusing that you immediately thought of monetary compensation when the real meaning of compensation is "to make up for, offset, or counterbalance". Nowhere in my post or my question did I slightly hint at any form of monetary compensation. It was your own interpretation of the post that gave you that impression. Likewise, the mention of the compensation / retribution was not meant to be an analogy of the problem; hence the reason it was so poorly one. As I stated, and has seemingly been ignored, I am past the "what's the problem?" stage and well into the "what's the solution?" stage. To answer your counter-points: 1) Apparently, regardless of how much anyone tries to comprehend the resentment that any nationality would feel against the Americans, it never proves to be enough or it is idly deemed "half-hearted lip service" or other derogatory sentiments. Since I am positive neither of us knows each other in person, I question the basis for your presumptions that I do not understand the residual resentment any more or less than the direct descendants of the atrocities? Are you certain that those responding have not, at one point in our lifetime or ancestry been persecuted and prosecuted far more aggressively than the nationality of which you represent? There are a myriad of forms of oppression, and not all of them were initiated by one race and targeted at another. 2) This is utter nonsense in the fact that it is a purely subjective view from the "oppressed" as to how the "aggressor" is acting or not. Here again, speaking of personal experience, how do you know that all of us do not "act consistently over time with contrition" about what we, as individuals of this day an age, feel about how someone has treated other nationalities in a past day and age? I, for one, never owned another human being, nor did I ever force anyone to perform acts outside of their own volition, nor have I caused any physical or psychological harm to anyone. I will not accept the burden of my forefathers simply because the descendants of those who actually suffered believe that the only way we can feel remorse is to suffer the same forms of oppression at their hands. That is simply ludicrous. As much as you claim we do not understand you, it appears that you do not fully understand us. It is this lack of understanding that is getting in the way of finding a real solution so we can live in peace. 3) No man, woman, nor child has the power to correct the wrongdoings of the past. Nor, as stated above, should someone who has never participated in the wrongdoings be required to bear the burden of those who have. If you have a viable solution as to how anyone can "correct the whole history of wrongs and evil actions" that anyone has done, I am sure that we are ready and willing to listen. 5) This part of the "West", as you so call it, has not been in existence for 400 years. Up until the formation of the United States, this entire area was colonized by many nations. Likewise, the entire world over has been involved in "acts of terror and genocide". I highly encourage you to research history and get the facts correct. Although this does not make it right depending upon the side of the fence you stand on, but you are, essentially, blaming the entire human race for the events of the past. Being a learned and scholarly individual, you must realize that the majority of these four requests are for "compensation" that is beyond the means of any mortal to provide. Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that there can never be any compensation for the wrongdoings of the past and we will be eternally damned for it. I do not accept that as a viable solution. The art of compromise is that each side must make a serious and concerted effort to appease the other for the mutual benefit of both parties. Asking for compensation in forms that no one can possibly fulfill is not, IMHO, actively seeking a solution; but causing further injustice and indignity by allowing the past to continually haunt the present and the future. If you, in all your wisdom, can come up with a viable solution that does not require one side to become submissive to or dominated by the other, then I wholeheartedly encourage you to do so.

Excellent guesture cyber, I concur. My final words on this thread. --lb

"perhaps, when they have nothing to feel "angry" about. many, shoot, most of us are still a bit, or lots of bits angry about what 9-11 did to our lives..." And this has what to do with racial relations? Islamic fundamentalism isn't confined to any one race or creed. "so, don't try and demean this thread, and what it may mean to each different individual who responds." Demean this thread? Wow... never realized we were carving eulogies in stone here. Pardon me for blaspheming the dogma of radical victimology, eh? Here's an industrial-sized summary of my original point: It Is Time To Move Onwards and Upwards. CyberStretch has expressed the same point far better than I. /P

To all,

Thank you very much for your comments on our newly released Brown Sugar maps created by Dalinise. We sincerely apologize to anyone who was offended by the way they were named. There was definitely no intended offense towards anyone. The product names have been changed and hopefully the new names will be less offensive.

Sometimes we at DAZ find ourselves in a damned if we do, damned if we dont situation. Maps by Dalinise with this exact naming scheme have been present on Renderosity for many months now, and have likely have been mentioned in some previous Renderosity newsletters. So I have to wonder, if DAZ were located in Tennessee would the names have been any less offensive? Or if we had forced Dalinise to change the names before releasing her products at DAZ, then would we have been accused of either being hyper-sensitive or prudish (because we are located in Utah)? I mention this just to point out that there is not always an easy solution.

I am also curious if those who have sent letters to DAZ complaining about the product names have also sent similar letters to Renderosity? Im not suggesting anyone do so, of course. Im merely wondering whether DAZ is being judged by the same standards as everyone else. Why have these product names only been targeted within a day after they were put up at DAZ when they have been up at Renderosity for several months? Our concern about the names was diminished based on the fact that they have been here for so long without anyone complaining before now.

To Dalinise: Thank you for giving us the opportunity to host such great quality textures and thank you for your flexibility in allowing us to change their names to something that will hopefully be less offensive. We of course understand that your intentions were good. On the bright side, you cant say that your products dont get noticed at DAZ! :)

Sincerely,

Dan Farr
President DAZ Productions

Dear Mr. Farr: let me begin by saying how grateful I am for your company, your products, and the attention that you gave to this matter. I may be speaking for myself but I believe the title of this Renderosity thread was unfortunate (I believe the author was attempting humor which is doubly difficult in ASCII). Would the names be less offensive if Daz was located in Tennessee? No, strictly speaking, but I don't think anyone believes that either Daz or Dalinise was trying to offend anyone and your locations had only something to do with the title of the thread and not with the naming of the products. The second question is a little more difficult. Is Daz being held to a different standard; in truth, I hadn't noticed the Dalinise textures in Renderosity... If I had, I probably would have seen the name, a flash of dark skin in the gif of the product and very quickly and very deliberately scrolled past. I do look at the Daz product page very often and did notice the name and product. I was reading the forums here at Renderosity and notice that I wasn't alone in being a little perturbed by it. Realistically, I am aware there are very few black Renderosity and Poser people around so it was a topic of interest. I do think both Daz and Dalinise were wrapped up into something that is very complicated. I hope you do note that many of the authors were not blaming you or Dalinise but merely stating a discomfort with atavistic terms for people.

Danfarr: "Why have these product names only been targeted within a day after they were put up at DAZ when they have been up at Renderosity for several months? Our concern about the names was diminished based on the fact that they have been here for so long without anyone complaining before now." I responded to DAZ's marketing of the product because I get the DAZ newsletter in my personal email, and sometimes actually read it. I wasn't aware that the package in question was also available at R'osity till others in this thread pointed it out; now that I've been made aware of that fact, of course I think it ought to be changed here, too. Your concern about the names was diminished? Meaning you actually were concerned at some point? Seems like maybe that was the right instinct. DAZ and R'osity are apples and oranges, anyway. The R'osity marketplace is a loose affiliation of dozens of autonomous merchants, all pretty much responsible for vetting their own copy. You guys come across as a much more "corporate," tightly controlled entity. If that's a fair characterization, then the responsibility for such fauxs pas falls directly on you. "if we had forced Dalinise to change the names before releasing her products at DAZ, then would we have been accused of either being hyper-sensitive or prudish (because we are located in Utah)?" Not by me. And of course this issue has nothing to do with prudery, Utahn or otherwise. But while I've got you here, what's up with Vicki's anatomical incorrectness, anyway? "So I have to wonder, if DAZ were located in Tennessee would the names have been any less offensive?" This question indicates, to me at least, that you still don't quite get it. Because you're located deep in the midst of the rectangular-states-anglo-monoculture, you might have to work a little harder (ask around a little, at least) to make sure stuff like this doesn't happen. Id be happy to vet your copy for you, as a matter of fact--my usual rate for editorial work is $75 an hour. You guys should be thanking me, you know. Not only are you now on the side of the angels, I'm guessing you've also picked up a lot of page views because I raised a stink.

"My whole "strategy" here is self-amusement, if you must know." There's a word for that, Peng. Twelve letters, starting with "m."

Hello, Dan (insert super-secret-masonic-illuminati-Utahn recognition signal here): You do realize, if DAZ were located in Tennessee, certain not-so-polite folk in here would instead make assumptions based on the movie Deliverance*... Of course, if you were in Tennessee, it would save me quite a bit of cash in sales tax... hmmm. Come to think of it, maybe you oughta move after all :p Just kidding... thank you for clarifing this, even though you could've just as easily ignored this morass of a thread. Mosca: As a married man, that particular department of my daily life is well taken care of, so your suggestion of Masturbation I shall leave to its source, as it is IMO a single man's game. Given this, I assure you that my entertainment with you here is on a much higher (and subtler) intellectual scale. You see, some of us prefer to think above our waists for amusement. Now, kindly quit trolling the nice folk at DAZ, and get back to trolling over Nekkid Vickies or Pink Ponies or whatever other pedestrian warmed-over subject you have lined up next. /P * A lot of Poser folk I know and respect highly are from/living in Tennessee, including Mehndi, Russell, Tonymouse, and especially Faemeister Thorne, so don't even think about it, campers.

"As a married man, that particular department of my daily life is well taken care of, so your suggestion of Masturbation I shall leave to its source, as it is IMO a single man's game." I was referring to the intellectual variety, Peng. (if you keep doing that, you'll grow hair on your frontal lobe). But I'm proud of you for figuring out what the "m" word was, all by yourself. "Now, kindly quit trolling the nice folk at DAZ" No trolling involved, although you seem to have gotten yourself gaffed again, as usual.

ROTFLMAO!

Sure thing, chief - play it off all you want, but instead you got played, pure and simple.

Ah well, claim what you will, my little friend. I'll be more than happy to get you all worked up and angry the next time you act up.

Cheers!

/P

At the risk of starting more trouble........so where are all the decent african male morphs, textures and hair styles? I'll quite happily buy them...(you liar).. but free would be ok as long as they're of extremely good quality ;-) Being british I'm not sure what a Utah moment is but I assume it's a reference to racism....weird, I'd have thought that the 3d artistic world would have left all that nonsense behind. Mon