HI i am along time poser user (since fractal designs poser2) I am glad the poser5 is finally near release and would like some info from the beta testers ro CL regarding the new raytracer and rendertimes is the firefly raytracer of poser5 adaptive?? or a strict raytracing engine like bryce(GOD FORBID!!) I use Cinema 4DXl to render poser animations Via the propack plugin Cinema4D uses what's called an Adaptive Raytracing rendering engine. It only raytraces the parts of the image it has to (things that are reflective and/or refractive). It uses a special phong algorithm to render everything that does not need to be raytraced This is what allows cinema to render such large scenes so quickly with such high quality (something that is not usually possible with strictly raytracing engines). Also will someone post some render times with hardware specs using the strand hair?? So that us 12 poser animators can determine if we are facing 3 day rendertimes for 6 seconds of animation, like those poor souls in the bryce5 community?? will poser5 be able to render like this attached pic?? thanks :-)

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was she rendered in c4d? nice.

Kupa has said that the renderer is primarily based on a 'reyes' algorithm scan line renderer (similar to Pixar's renderman compliant PRMan). The main advantages of this method of rendering are speed and detail, but, of course, much depends on the implementation. For the last few years it has been the main rendering method for the vast majority of animated features. The renderer will also use 'hybrid' ray tracing to provide reflections and refractions. This is probably similar to Cinema 4D's adaptive raytracing. Whether it is only active when the surface being rendered has reflective or refractive qualities, or whether the renderer uses this to create 'real' shadows, dispensing with shadow maps remains to be seen (tracing the incident point back to the light sources may not count as raytracing). Always bear in mind that even in high quality features, minimising the amount render work is an established artform. Reflections, refractions, volume atmospheres and strands, for example will always be high cost options, so the use of reflection maps and transmaps will probably still be part of the animators arsenal, after all, Pixar still use them. Bill

Of course we won't really know how the renderer (or the procedural materials) perform in practice for animations until we try it ourselves. Info from beta testers will probably be based on static renders. However, if I had a wish for a perfect animation renderer it would probably very similar to what CL seem to be promising, so on the whole (as the 'thirteenth animator') I am fairly optimistic. Bill

a strict raytracing engine like bryce(GOD FORBID!!) Get over yourself, huh? The render engine in Bryce may be slow, but the results are light years beyond similarly-priced software. And as far as I'm concerned, it gives Bryce a unique and highly stylish look that you cannot get in any other 3D package.

do any of you all know about imagine? i met another lady....who lives in my area, and does 3d work. her computer was also stolen....but they got her cds, as well....what she was most upset about losing was imagine...could one of you gurus expound?

>"Get over yourself, huh? "< Pardon Me but Im a Proud former Bryce animator :-) so im well aware of the render quality one can get from bryce but im also well aware of the frustration i see every day in the Bryce forum from indivdual single artists with one machine, who would like to produce thier own short films but unfortunately are stuck with a render engine that makes no distinction between wood and water and raytraces Everything in a scene forcing any animator to measure his rendertimes for simple scenes in DAYS instead of HOURS. BUT i hear bryce 6 is on the horizon so maybe the Bryce users will no longer have high quality render options dangled in front of them by corel that cant be realisticly implemented Due to outrageous rendertimes. My only concern here is that CL Does not make that same mistake with poser5 as corel did with bryce5.

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well, i just know this...don't ask. poser 5 is not going to render all that swell. i am so glad i don't animate. do any of you know of imagine? poser is for posing. other programs are much better at rendering. i hate the long bryce render times....what is the best renderer, in your opinions? don't count times, here...i have a crappy computer, anyway.

I'm hoping there is going to be a C4D export feature in P5, like they added onto the Pro Pack. This will probably be the best for your needs too wolf. I don't expect Poser's render is going to be that fast, and Kupa has said it's not going to support dual processors (though hoperfully he was talking only about the Win version). I don't do much animation, but for stills I have to agree that poser rendered in C4D looks way better than rendering in Poser 4, and it's over 8 times faster for me than rendering the same scene in Bryce. In terms of image quality, what I get from Bryce is comparable, it's just so slow. The longest I'm willing to wait is if I start the render when I go to sleep, and it's done when I wake in the morning. Anything that takes longer than that I'm not going to bother with. -Adam

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Poppi, Imagine is a 3D program that's been around for years. It was one of the very first available for the Amiga - the computer that started the whole "3D modeling on a home computer" phenomenon. Imagine is made by a company called Impulse. It still exists and can be found at the above link.

You want lightening fast render? Check out Electric Image Universe Animator. Even the older version 2.9 that comes with the dvgarage sale kit is lightening fast. Now to get the program to respond well to high poly models.

but im also well aware of the frustration i see every day in the Bryce forum from indivdual single artists with one machine And? Same here, and yet I've managed to produce broadcast-quality Bryce animations for a few years now. I sometimes think people expect to have everything at the press of a couple of buttons instead of having to actually wait for the quality. I mean, sheesh, how long would it take to animate something like this by hand? Consider that, and then tell me the render engine in Bryce is hopelessly slow.

Okay, I have to ask...how does anyone in this thread know how well Poser 5 is going to render? Unless you are a beta tester or an employee of Curious Labs and breaking your NDA on what authority or experience do you speak from? If you do not have the experience, why are you or anyone else wasting everyone else's time in pure speculation? Not to mention bashing a product before it is even released. And please don't say you aren't Poser 5 bashing, that's what it looks like from the cheap seats here. Get over it people, don't we all have something better to do? Popcorn anyone? Pendy

Hey---chill. These are legitimate questions and concerns, paticularly for animators. My read is that this is not to bash poser 5, but we're all trying to organize our computers and our lives around a few pieces of software so that we can get to the work we love. You wouldn't buy a Ford without asking a few questions, would you? I hope not!

Yes, they are legitimate questions, but the answers I'm seeing here are being made by people that just flat don't know and are making guesses, assumptions and speculation. I think questions are great, but let's let those that actually know and are working with the product answer them instead of "assuming" something isn't going to work well. That is where I am seeing the bashing. Pendy

I have to agree with Pendarian. There's no way to know what render times we can expect from Poser 5. On the one hand, you can assume it's a raytracer so it must be slow, but that's not really true, is it? We know they've added reflection/refraction and strand-based hair, but we also know that technology is progressive, and it's possible, in fact, likely that CL has found ways to speed up these processes. We're comparing apples to oranges here, and we're not even sure how fruit has evolved in the last year. From what I've read, CL is saying that the Firefly renderer is completely revolutionary. I'm willing to believe that. I also am willing to believe that our classic terms of ray-tracer, scanline, and phong renderers might be too overly defined to apply in this case, as the press releases clearly state that the renderer combines a lot of different methods. Maybe we should all forget about what we "know" and instead acknowledge what we don't know. I'm sure Steve and the gang have a hole lot of surprises up there sleeves. Most people forget how revolutionary Poser 4 was for its time. I have no doubt that Poser 5 will be the same. Paul P.S.: Where the hell did they get that 3ds max render time? I use Mental Ray with Max and I'd be glad to stack it up mono-a-mono against LW and C4D any day. ;)

Where is a list of Poser 4 bugs that have been cured in Poser 5?

Anthony, you might want to go read what has been posted over at Curious Labs, or look up "California Dreaming" thread to see what Kupa has to say on that thread if anything about bug fixes. Which bugs are you talking about?

is there actually a list of poser4 bugs? I'd like to see it if there is one. Rob

Wolf, you calmed me down when I was suffering Poser 5 symptoms, my turn now. I read recently in one of the threads that P5 would have a dual option of renderers, one faster than the other. That was because we implored him not to lose Poser's speed. Looking at your image, well we're getting depth of field so the answer is, yes. Incidentally, I always thought you were a beta tester! So if you're not that means that we'll have to rely on Lawndart and Chris Derochie. Both excellent animators, I just hope that the reason why we haven't heard from them is because their 'puters have been tied up for the last month. Hmm, I see your point....

Which bugs are you talking about? The slaving crosstalk bug. The rendering bug when extra Weld commands are text-edited in. Omitted Weld statement causes a morph bug. And most of all:- Getting its trigonometry sums wrong when converting an IK-goal's coordinates back and forth between IK-on and IK-off modes. This shows most whe the IK-chain is of several members. And cases when the result is "correct" but bad, such as it working out that a part is xrotated 372 degrees instead of 12 degrees.

Attached Link: Animated hair in cinema

>Hey Wolf,I am just curious, since I render everything in Poser...how does Cinema4D compare (for a typical animation render time) with Poser? I might be interested in trying it? How does it do with hair? Or large scenes with sets and such.<" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There really is NO comparison between poser4 and cinema4D when it comes to render times!! Cinema render engine is even faster that lightwaves with comparable quality. I know of a poser animator(EDW) thats producinga cinema hosted poser scene with TWELVE!! animated poser figures with no problems as far as hair is concerned cinema has it own animated hair plugin that will grow hair on any polygon surface with controls for length,thickness and can be "styled" using cinema's powerful model deformation tools and it renders extremely fast in cinema4D the attached pic is of one of my early strand based custom wigs made in cinema4D and converted to a "smart prop" for mike2 renderd in poser4 the attatched link is to one of my early hair animation tests. and saxon im a MAC OSX user the MAC P5 beta is not ready for us to test yet :-(

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Attached Link: THICKLIQUIDFLOW

">I mean, sheesh, how long would it take to animate something like this by hand? Consider that, and then tell me the render engine in Bryce is hopelessly slow."< ---------------------------------------------------------------- Vitualsite:I was a bryce "evangelist" back in version2 before it could animate and i own the DVD of infinity's child" the incredible 40 minute fantasy film created in bryce4 and rendered on a massive farm of intel machines.I still use bryce for creating a library of animated sky movies to map onto background objects in cinema4DXl because cinema's "Sky generator" frankly Sucks!! Bryce5 can simulate pouring liquids by attaching metaballs to a curved path and animating them flowing along the Path, I tried this in bryce and it took 14 hours!! for about 4 seconds of liquid flow!!with NO anti-aliasing!! fortunately i was in OSX and could do other things during those 14 hours. try it yourself if you like This liquid flow( see link) was renderd in an hour and 15 minutes in cinema4DXl with anti-aliasing and the quality is as good as Bryce So yes for ME and my current needs at least, bryce is too slow.

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Well since my name came up.. Here's a frame from the Poser version of the animation that Wolf was talking about. The Poser version took 21 hours to render... the C4D version with more lights, reflections..etc 14 hours. The questions Wolf is asking are some that I would like the answers to myself. I would really like to be able to render more in Poser, but Cinema just flat out produces better results IMHO. Ed

I'd like to be able to render in both. If I have a simple scene with few objects that are doing basic motions I'd like to be able to do it in Poser. Other than that, I expect to continue using Lightwave.

Lightwave provides curve options that Poser doesn't - like Bezier curves. Lightwave is designed to accomodate a much broader range of animation - Poser is for people.

It really depends on the shot and the story but I'd like to be able to do both.

I guess I'll find out...

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Pendarian, I think when these questions are asked, folks are hoping that someone at Curious Labs will read it and respond with a knowledgeable answer. I do agree that a lot of people here without informatiion are making speculations. I remember when people were asking about the price of P5, and someone came in with a response that they thought the full package would be in the $700 range and the upgrade around $300, which of course, has now been proven way wrong. They had absolutely nothing to base that estimate on. Whenever a questions is asked, people will respond, even if it's only a guess. I suppose we're all human. I think that the questions will be answered when we actually get Poser 5 and use it for ourselves. Maybe we should just stop making guesses about it and wait to see how it performs on our own machines. As far as rendering, lighting, reflection, etc. comparing to Bryce, I think the best rendering I've seen so far is in Terragen. It has Bryce beat enormously. I just wish it would one day be finished. The outdoor lighting and texturing in Terragen is unbelievable, for a beta product. Melanie

in terms of render engines: AutoCAD 2000 kicks some serious ass, but is an hellacious memory hog and is not exactly Poser-friendly.

Love that first Pic ... very nice Wolf. Makes we want to buy Cinema4D. I'll definitely have to wait and see how P5 does in the render department. I am extremely worried that depth of field will not be an animatable property.

And I hope that in Poser 5 all the endless %&$^(&$)^&_( IK bugs have been cured!!!