Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=829963

I've posted this in Mimic-related threads before, but somebody suggested that I start a thread of its own with this info, so here it is. Mimic is a brilliant program, well worth the money, but "buyer beware." Mimic works great out of the box with the P4 figures -- but it needs CONSIDERABLE tweaking with the Millennium figures. I personally think that it stinks with the Millennium figures, which is ironic, since Daz now owns everything. This isn't Mimic's fault. It's Daz's fault -- it has to do with the way they built Mike and Vicky in the first place. Dan Farr of Daz finally admitted in a recent thread that Mike and Vicky are only "reasonably compatible" (his words) with Mimic. Curiously, this info did NOT appear in their press release regarding Mimic, nor does it appear in their Mimic FAQ or on their web page announcing Mimic for sale. Hmmmm... In the interest of fairness, please see the attached link to a thread that has his complete message. Mimic was designed to make life easier for animators. Mike and Vicky's incompatability with Mimic only underscores what I've always believed -- that Daz did NOT have animation in mind at all when they created Mike and Vicky. But Mike and Vicky are both sold as being "Mimic compatable," and that's slightly false advertising. (As an aside, I am looking forward to the P5 characters and I would hope that they will be FULLY Mimic compatable -- shifting the attention in the Poser world away from Mike and Vicky altogether.) It doesn't mean you shouldn't buy Mimic or Michael or Vicky. But it does mean that you need to have this information first to make your decision. I'm putting this info out because I really want Daz to FIX Mike and Vicky and make them fully Mimic compatable. After all, that's what we all paid for, isn't it? How about it DAZ??? --jjsemp

Here is a LINK about a wish list for future Mimic releases. -Tim (1 of the 12: co-founder)

Thanks for the info. I was thinking of purchasing Mimic in addition to Textpuppet which I now have. I think I will hold off for awhile, especially with P5 Mac version coming at some indeterminate time in the future:) Textpuppet works reasonably well (I've been using with the millenium kids) although the computerized voice generation gets old relatively fast and I have to run it in Virtual PC. Also, when you get down to it, spelling everything phonetically is a necessity, even in the Spanish module. AT&T has a really nice voice generation program which they sell for computer marketing; however it is available for one machine installations and its end product is in .wav format. This coupled with an improved and later Mimic might amount to something. manowar

I just got the MAC version of MIMIC working after fiddling around all weekend. I had posted for help earlier, and with the rate that new messages come in it's already a couple pages back. I do want to respond to this thread, however, by saying that I tried my first animation using Mike. It was obvious that it would need tweaking to get it to some reasonably realistic finish. Time and patience will tell if I'm pleased with the amount of extra work needed. To DAZ I want to say...please take this subject to heart and do your Dazziest to address this Mike/Vicky/Mimic thing. If you are working on Mike 3/Vicky 3 I'd appreciate an uddate to the Mike 2/Vicky2 figures to be fully Mimic compatible and it be free to the purchasers of them. I too bought Mimic thinking they were fully compatible and will not accept having to buy a 3rd version to get compatible figures. You guys seem to be very talented and knowledgable and I believe you can address this problem. Here's hoping.

Additionally, I want to request that you place something on your DAZ website about addressing any problems that have been posted here at Renderosity about using Mimic. I wasted a few days trying to get the MAC version to launch and requested help after going to the DAZ site, Renderosity, Google, LipSinc etc with no success. Someone replied to my Renderosity request with a probable cause being a damaged directory file. I tried the other suggestions and finally got it to open after this ritual...Norton Utilities...ran the Disk Doctor. It gave a report that the bit bundle for MIMIC was off and should be on. Then it fixed that with the "click the FIX button". After that, although I already had "rebuilt the desktop", I recalled that Conflict Catcher also has a "rebuild the desktop" function. So I opened CC and clicked on rebuild the desktop, again. Then I tried opening MIMIC and it finally worked.

I hope DAZ puts this kind of info somewhere on their site, because what I went through shouldn't happen to a dog. Fortunately I have some degree of experience and forsight to have tried the above. For someone who's a newbie I feel sorry if they had my problem.

For now, I'll put my chips on DAZ to step up to the plate. I buy lots of stuff from you guys and will continue to do so if I'm a satisfied customer. (Hint, hint)

Timoteo1, I saw the "wish list" thread, which is a great idea. But I really think that Mimic AS IS ought to work with Mike and Vicky RIGHT NOW. I don't think that any of us ought to pay a penny more for true Mike and Vicky compatability -- we've already paid for it. This should be some sort of patch for Mike and Vicky (or Mimic) that they ought to get out right away. C'mon Daz, what's your response? -jjsemp

I'm a bit confused. I don't believe the millenium figures were built to work with MIMIC, but were built to run in Poser 4. Lipsinc was the developer of MIMIC, not DAZ, and the product was developed to work with the P4 and P3 figures...the original figures of Poser, not the DAZ models... MIMIC does work, however, with models that have the same phoneme morphs as the P4 figures, so any model built with those morphs will work with MIMIC, including the millenium figures. I have used MIMIC with Mike and VIC, and it did a pretty good job...yes some tweaking, but you need to tweak using the regular models as well. Check out the animation on the DAZ site...it works just fine. Now that DAZ has the rights and ownership of MIMIC it would be great if it were developed further to work seamlessly with the models they produce, and future P5 characters, but it isn't their fault it doesn't work with the millenium figures as maybe you think it should...but I have had pretty good success, and I believe others have as well... I don't see where DAZ states the milleni8um characters are MIMIC compatible in the MIMIC or millenium figure product descriptions.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

JJSEMP: I agree with you (and the others) for the most part. But DAZ just acquired Mimic from LipsInc., so we need to give them a little breathing room to begin making Mimic the product it should have been, OR making the Mil figures more compatible. However, I do wonder why (even though they were seperate entities) DAZ didn't make the Mil. figures more compatible in the first place. A simple oversite I imagine. -Tim

I doubt they really even considered MIMIC all that much when they developed the millenium figures...the morphs are similar to the original Poser characters, but as Dan Farr stated in that other thread, not totally the same as they were going for something different. But as stated, probably an oversight by DAZ at the time... Even Poser was not originally designed for MIMIC...it just happened that LipSinc came up with their technology that they were then able to use for Poser animation, using the default Metacreation models, (built by Zygote pre DAZ in P4...not sure about P3 models). Prior to that, Poser users had to create their own mouth and facial movements from scratch, (other than the included phoneme morphs). Doesn't MIMIC actually use PZ2 files??? HERE IS A TUTORIAL ON USING MIMIC WITH MIKE AND VIC: http://www.3dtutor.homestead.com/ when you get to this site, click on the "My Mimic Animation of Models FAQ"

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

The FAQ DAVE-SO so nicely mentioned was written by me. Mimic used the P4 male/female face morph names when they wrote their software. DAZ didn't follow the P4 naming convention when they built the Millenium Figures. My FAQ does mention several easy fixes for the Millenium Characters. I was very happy that DAZ chose to purchase MIMIC and hope that future releases of people and animals will be Mimic ready.

Mimic is stand alone and creates the motion file based on the built in facial morph targets of the model.

"I'm a bit confused. I don't believe the millenium figures were built to work with MIMIC, but were built to run in Poser 4. Lipsinc was the developer of MIMIC, not DAZ, and the product was developed to work with the P4 and P3 figures...the original figures of Poser, not the DAZ models..." Dave, Thanks for your input. I do know the difference between Curous Labs, Daz and LipsInc - who they are and what they sell. That's not the issue. I distinctly remember Michael #1 and Vicky #1 as being advertised as "Mimic compatable" when they came out, which is why I bought them way back when. Daz no longer advertises them as being "Mimic compatable" any more, and rightly so because they aren't. I realize that I could "make" Mike and Vicky work with Mimic, but why should I have to? Same goes for Mike #2 and Vicky #2. I bought 'em only to find that nothing had been fixed. They still "talk funny." Listen, I'm not a rabble-rouser. I was mostly content to continue using the P4 people with Mimic and keep my mouth shut (no pun intended). But then this new wave of "hype" arrived with Daz's acquisition of Mimic. They've dropped the price, they want people to buy Mimic, and there was NO MENTION of the fact that you have to "tweak" Mike and Vicky to make it work (not even on their website or in their Mimic FAQ). I find this to be mildly dishonest and I felt the need to let potential Mimic purchasers know what the real deal is. And what I REALLY want is for Daz to FIX Mike and Vicky! I've bought LOTS AND LOTS of things from Daz -- I always will. I like Daz. But if you need to hack a pose file or rename a morph target to make something work, then they have to TELL people! -jjsemp

By the way jamball77, I DID find your FAQ a long time ago and on behalf of Mimic users everywhere, thanks. I have it printed out nearby within easy access. It should be included with every sale of Mimic and Daz ought to pay you royalties. -jjsemp

jjsemp...yes they talk funny :) Like they have a lisssp or something...plus the overall movements aren't quite right.... Sorry--it kinda sounded like you were banging DAZ a bit for MIMIC not being millenium ready, when , of course, they had no input on MIMIC...at least from what I've read over time...perhaps as Zygote, however---they designed some of the original Poser figures, so it may be that they had influence on the product. I was on the DAZ site..no mention at all, anymore, of their figures not working with mimic fully, although , if you look at their show reel, it has a demo of MIMIC being used with Victoria. I am a new buyer of MIMIC, but have followed that product since it first came out and have done work with it, and followed the discussions so knew pretty much what it was capable of prior to buying it, but a new user of Poser would not have a clue. Hopefully they will put a blurp up on their site. They really should do that--agreed. I kinda figured they put it for sale cheap to grow the customer base in readiness for version 2 when they get it ready.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

I'm curious why the original poster didn't even mention the exact problem between the Millennium Figurs and Mimic.

Victoria and Michael were born as improvement over P4 figures, and they did incredibly well at that. In order to achieve improvement, DAZ had to change "arrangement" of the face, to get better expression and morphing. So DAZ can not be blamed for anything. They just created beautiful figures the best way possible within the limits of Poser. I am 100% sure that now, DAZ will make either the figures, or Mimic, or both, compatible. Maybe starting (who knows?) with the new Victoria 3.

"I'm curious why the original poster didn't even mention the exact problem between the Millennium Figures and Mimic." The problem is that the Millenium figures' faces don't move properly when run through Mimic and the lipsync is spastic and mushy. The results are unnacceptable and require tweaking to be usable. And Daz isn't advertising that fact. "Victoria and Michael were born as improvement over P4 figures, and they did incredibly well at that." Not if you're an animator using Mimic. "In order to achieve improvement, DAZ had to change "arrangement" of the face, to get better expression and morphing." Okay...I HAD figured that out for myself, but thanks for the heads up. "So DAZ can not be blamed for anything." They can be blamed for originally advertising Mike and Vicky as "Mimic compatable" when they weren't. And now they can be blamed for advertising Mimic without letting people know that its not 100% compatable with Mike and Vicky. "They just created beautiful figures the best way possible within the limits of Poser." Uh-huh. Okay. "I am 100% sure that now, DAZ will make either the figures, or Mimic, or both, compatible. Maybe starting (who knows?) with the new Victoria 3." Your 100% assurance is comforting, but the only part of the above sentence that we can both agree on is "who knows?" -jjsemp

Say, eh, has anyone tried the P4 versions of Mike and Vicky to see how they work with Mimic? I don't have Mimic so I can't try it

Why shouldn't speech be free? Very little of it is worth anything.

Charlie T It's the head that's the problem not the body :P so the P4 body isn't germain....but nice try. The whole lipsinc thing is very new and there are very few commercially successful implementations that cost under $50. So as far as I am concerned I'm happy. I look for improvements but hey this is going to take a while to work out.

jjsemp, Aside from all the obliquity displayed above, you're right on the mark and thanks again for the "heads up." manowar