Hello, A response to the flurry of questions and concerns surrounding the Poser 5 installation process is in order. According to most EULAs, software is something like renting a sofa: You pay for the privilege of having a piece of furniture in your house subject to certain conditions, however the sofa remains the propery of the rental company. The software company retains full ownership of the code sitting on your computer. This is hardly unique to Poser: Read the EULAs for all of "your" software and you'll see the same thing repeated over and over again. Your daily life is rife with security measures designed to keep people from stealing your property (door locks, window bars, alarms, access cards, passwords, firewalls, virus scanners, etc.). Crime is something we must all live with. You complain about being honest people who have to pay for crime by being forced to register Poser 5. It's a valid complaint and I personally agree with you in principle. The mere concept that honest people must alter their behavior and spend resources to guard against crime is abominable. Here again, Poser is very far from unique: Ever get a key duplicated? Talk into an intercom before being buzzed into an apartment? Pay your insurance bill (some 20% of which goes to nothing but covering the cost of fraud)? Go through airport security, etc. What's the first thing many of us do when we move into a new place? Change the locks? Also, didn't you have to register in order to be able to use this very site? The point is self-evident: Your daily life is filled with safeguards of varying degrees of effectiveness, many of them far more repetitive than occasionally having to register software. Here's how the Poser 5 registration process works and the most common special cases: When you install Poser 5, you will be required to input your contact information and serial number. The installer generates a unique Challenge Code that requires an equally unique Response Code to unlock. You can register online via the Web or via email, phone, fax, snail mail, carrier pigeon, smoke signal, etc. Curious Labs values our customers' privacy and takes steps to safeguard that information. For example, we do NOT sell your information. The entire process takes only a minute or two. I myself have used it numerous times during testing and it has worked flawlessly every time. The Challenge Code is tied to the machine you are installing Poser on. Thus, the Challenge Code used for Computer A will not work for Computer B. What about upgrading your computer? Provided you use the same hard drive, I don't think you'll need to re-register (but don't quote me on that). What if you change hard drives? No sweat. Simply send us your new Challenge Code, confirm your registration information, and you'll get a new Response Code. Think of it like locking yourself out of your car: The locksmith will verify that you have a legitimate reason to enter the vehicle, open the door, tip his hat, and send you on your way with the absolute minimum hassle. What about multiple installations? The EULA clearly states that you can install Poser 5 on more than one machine at a time provided that only one copy of our software is running at any one time. No problem. Simply install and register each new installation. In fact, you have a certain number of "free" installations before any flags are raised. And if you exceed that number? Contact Tori (Starlet) with your registration information. Shemay ask a few questions about why you're installing Poser so many times, verify your information, and issue a new Response Code. Got a desktop and a laptop? Go for it! Just please don't have Person A running Poser 5 on the desktop while you or Person B is using Poser on the laptop. We built in this leeway precisely to address your very legitimate concerns. What if Curious Labs closes down? I truly don't see that happening in the forseeable future! However, Curious Labs has previously stated on this forum that we will not leave our customers hanging should this occur. If we do go out of business, you will still be able to use all of our secured products. What exact form will that take? I'm honestly not sure, but our commitment remains. As you can see, we have implemented a balanced system that will protect our investment while minimizing the impact on you, our honest customers. I believe this post addresses the concerns I've seen raised in previous threads and hope you can see that our measures are far from Draconian. :-) Anthony Hernandez Curious Labs

I came so close to pre-ordering day before yesterday and I decided to ask about this first...I am so glad I did because I won't be purchasing P5. I am all for security but I have never (and never will) purchase software that won't allow me to install it on my desktop as well as my laptop. Nor will I purchase software that allows me to install it on both but dictates when I can use it on them... nor will I purchase software that I have to contact the company after I install it before I can use it..every time I have to reformat....sorry but if consumers don't draw the line somewhere, I'll have to contact Ford Motor company everytime I want to drive my car to verify I am the owner of it and have the right to drive it.....

Hi Anthony After the last debate about this type of protection in the service pack for PP, CL pulled the plug on it and Steve asked us users to report warez sites and help CL fight warez. Well I kept up my end of the bargain and went hunting on the net and reported several sites and even one place selling pirated copies for 50 bucks a pop. I doubt I am the only one who reported warez to CL. Forgive me but I am feeling a little betrayed right now, I made an effort to help CL and wound up getting paid back by this protection scheme. When I bought the Avatar Lab, I was slightly irritated when I saw this scheme implimented there too. But the worst part was the fact that my work machine is not connected to the internet, and when I mailed CL from another PC for the code, it didn't even work. This was disappointing, espescially since Steve had invited me to meet him at CL's Atmosphere site. Yes I could have called long distance to the U.S. late at night or e-mailed support and complained and waited a few days, but at that point I just gave up. I'm not gonna burn my bridges and say I'm never going to upgrade to P5, I'm just not going to now. Though I do appreciate CL's other effort to please it's customers any all of the employees posting to the various forums keeping us up to date, I still fell this is very poor payback to loyal customers. :-( David Lara

From Microsoft's EULA Q&A: The End-User License Agreement (EULA) for many Microsoft application software products contains the following sentence: "The primary user of the computer on which the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is installed may make a second copy for his or her exclusive use on a portable computer." If your EULA contains this sentence, then, subject to the conditions mentioned, you may make a second copy of the software. Note that you must be the primary user of the computer on which the software is installed. The primary user is the individual who uses the computer most of the time it is in use. Only that individual is entitled to use the second copy. Furthermore, the software must be installed on the local hard disk of your computer; you are not entitled to make and use a second copy on your portable computer if you run the primary copy of the software from a network server. Finally, only one secondary copy may be made; you may install this copy on more than one portable computer. Please note that many Microsoft products are copy protected and it will not be technically possible to make a second copy of the disk. FROM APPLE: This License allows you to install and use the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled or Apple-licensed computer at a time. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time. You may make one copy of the Apple Software (excluding the Boot ROM code) in machine-readable form for backup purposes only. The backup copy must include all copyright information contained on the original. Except as expressly permitted in this License, you may not decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, modify, rent, lease, loan, sublicense, distribute or create derivative works based upon the Apple Software in whole or part or transmit the Apple Software over a network or from one computer to another. This license allow you to install or operate the Apple Software only on a computer system that came bundled with a licensed version of the Mac OS at the time of original manufacture. By your standard, Dizzie, it seems you're out of both an operating system and most of the software you use. As I said, the Poser EULA is far from unique.

ahh man with all the trouble I have with my dam HD and haveing to reformat...I dunno. Am I gonna have to contact you all everytime I reformt? In the last week that was 5 diffrent times. :( I really want poser 5, but I now I just dont know.

Reformatting the drive should not require re-registration.

Thank god! Im haveing a hell of a time with my dam HD. :(

Hi Mr.Hernandez,

Thank you for the information.

Warm Regards

Nancy Deer With Horns
Deer With Horns Native American Indian Site

I plan on having it on my desktop and laptop, now at least I know I can. Yippee...Sharen

Just to back Anthony up (although he may not like the storm that this brings): My God, all this complaining over something that is a MINOR inconvenience on a very few occassions. This issue will only impact you when you first install the software and (maybe) if you make enough changes to your system and/or reinstall the software, or if you reinstalll your entire system. Otherwise it is a ONE TIME THING. The only valid complaint is "what if CL goes under", which of course something will have to be done. People, get used to it. All software companies will be following the lead set by Microsoft. For those of us with legitimate copies of XP, we already have to deal with "checking in with Microsoft" and this is after making only a few changes to our systems (both hardware and software changes). Other companies are taking the lead from Microsoft and doing the same thing. You may try to "vote with your dollar" and not support the software, but eventually you will have to use something that uses this or a similar method since the pace of software development marches on. Face it, with the tougher economic times right now, and the hysteria with which content companies are complaining to Congress (in the US) about lost revenues to piracy, this is not going away. If it is not this method, it will be another. Companies will continue to try all sorts of schemes to protect their content from piracy. Of course it will always be a losing cause, but they have to do something. Also, CL's EULA is very similar to that of almost every other software package out there. As Anthony posted, check copies of your own. They are not asking for anything too unreasonable, and they are being generous in allowing us multiple installs (although single use at a time) of the application). And, no, I am not a CL employee. I am a realist. - Ray

I was just going to ask about that. I just had to do a format c: and reinstall my win98 plus Poser, propack, etc. This happens to me a LOT and if I'm going to have to contact the company every time, this is going to be a major PITA. So far, since May, I have had to re-install Poser a total of 5 times and my OS twice.

Bug, you're right, except that Steve did say that security measures would be implemented in future products. The original Avatar Lab installer did have a few issues that have long since been fixed. The electronic Pro Pack package is secured in the same manner as Poser 5. I receive tech support emails and have seen no installation/registration issues. Further, I have seen no issues with Poser 5. I should also add that the registration process includes a grace period, which means you aren't stuck if you can't reach us immediately. Again, we are going out of our way to make this process just as painless as possible. And it's pretty danged painless. I also receive and act on piracy reports. I cannot speak for individual reports except to offer our sincerest thanks to everyone who tipped us off to theft. I can, however, say that the overall volume of piracy reports did not increase. Meantime, piracy remains one of our largest challenges. I am sorry that anyone feels betrayed. That said (removing my CL hat), I personally feel betrayed at having my hard work and that of people I care about rewarded by being stolen.

Overall, it sounds a lot less involved and inconvenient than (for instance) mailing in a change of address card to the local PostOffice & waiting for your mail to catch up to you. Thanks Anthony, I appreciate the clarification.

LOL Kate - I thought I was the only one who knows what PITA means :-).

Reformatting the drive should not require re-registration.

I doubt that this wouldn't require re-registration. My P4 sits on it's own drive, D. Each time I made format C the registry is totally cleaned. Starting Poser after I made format C it asks for the serial number for P4 and PP, just like all the other software that is installed on the other three drives of my PC. Why should P5 do anything different from that - or does this mean I can make use of my old challenge code in this case?

Friederike

Every organisation rests upon a mountain of secrets ~ Julian Assange

Here we go again...I'm confused....why would a reformat NOT require a reregistration if every time you install, it creates a unique code that requires another code from CL to make the program function?

Reformatting the drive should not require re-registration. Your hard drive has a unique serial number which is often used in software key schemes like this; it does not depend on the registry or even the operating system, so you should be ok until you buy a new HD. Anthony - looking forward to registering my copy of Poser 5 by smoke signal. Will that work from the UK? :-)

I believe English Bob nailed it. I stress I am not 100% sure and thus do not want to spread misinformation. I'll ask the engineers and will be glad to post any updated info if needed. Keep in mind, this is a long weekend so it may be a few days. :-) Anthony H.

"My God, all this complaining over something that is a MINOR inconvenience on a very few occassions." It may be only a minor inconvenience, but what you have to realise is that it leaves a very bad taste in the mouth. Customers are people, they aren't just statistics; they have feelings. I have every sympathy with people like Dizzie. It's not right just to dismiss such feelings out of hand. In the case of Microsoft (but not CL), these increasing "security" measures have the semblance of being the thin end of a wedge. Get people to accept one level of intrusion and then impose on them a little bit more, and a little bit more. Under such circumstances, consumers have every right to complain about something minor, because many "minor inconveniences" add up to a major imposition eventually.

My aim was to show that Poser is not unique, not to dismiss anyone.

OK ... I understand about those registration unique key and it's necessity - it's OK if a company try to protect itself ... but it is also right that also the customer should be able to do this and that thing. So - one or two questions: First: I'm working with Poser I'm working on a PC that is NOT connected with the internet (YES, exactly for THAT reason noone can maybe work with my PC-datas) ... So, am I somehow able to install (and work) with Poser on a PC that is NOT connected with the internet ?? Second: When do I have to ask for the registration key ?? What if CL is not available (maybe during weekend, maybe just because of the fact I'm 8 hours away from CL) ?? Third: I'm using more than one PC's at the same time 'cause of the simple fact one PC is rendering and on the other I'm (let's say) doing poses - Would such a registration key implemented with P5 make that impossible ?? - Am I wrong when I'm saying I bought a licence for myself and then I should be able to work with more than one instance of a programm simultaneously ?? If so, so where is the sense then to store maybe a common runtime folder in a network ?? (OK, I know storage reasons, but if I want to work like I want, do I have to buy 2 or more versions of Poser5, just to be able to doing this ??)

I assume Dizzie is perhaps running Linux and has virtually little if any commercial software written in the last 10 years (or more) on his/her system. I sympathize. I haven't upgraded my Windows Media Player because I don't want the new DRM control, despite the fact that I've never downloaded a commercial MP3 or video and don't plan to. I don't have XP because 2000 works fine, but I will eventually upgrade to Microsoft's next OS which will undoubtedly have some form of security built in. The product is more valuable to me than avoiding inconvenience. The point is that software protection is reality, it is not going away. To think that CL wouldn't use it is completely unrealistic. They may be nice folks, they may be more warm and fuzzy than Microsoft but they're in business to make money like everyone else in the world. If you want this to go away then you'll have to come up with a new economic system first. Technology is wonderful but it comes with a pricetag. Ask the people who pressed vinyl records for a living. We can try to minimize the negative impact on our lives, but at a certain point, you become like the apocryphal workers throwing wodden shoes into the machinery in attempt to stave off modernization. Great idea but it didn't work. If anyone is interested, I have an AMD K6-350 and two 100 MB drives I'll sell cheap, including a copy of Poser 2 and Windows 3.11 on diskettes. No copy protection, no activation, no hassles.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

I agree with Phantast. Every "minor inconvenience" eventually adds up into a major intrusion. CL has an opprotunity with every new release to play leader instead of follower to trends, as does any software company. Instead of being a leader and saying they're not going to insult their legetimate customers or subject them to additional hoops to jump through, looks like ya'll are doing the "We're just following MicroSoft's lead like everyone else, and everyone else is doing it so live with it" bit. A software purchaser pays good money for the useage of the software package - in the case of graphics software, anywheres from $300+ to 3 or 4 thousand dollars plus - and recieves a CD, and a serial number unique to them. At those kind of prices, insert CD, input serial number, run program is a reasonable expectation for the purchaser. Not "install program, insert serial #, login on web, get authorization code, input code, email company repeatedly when code fails.... [As I've seen happen on numerous ocassions]". Do I think that a software company has the right to protect themselves from piracy? Of course. Do I also think that software piracy is a cost of doing business in these days and times for a software company? You bet I do. Do I think that legetimate purchasers need to accept being subjected to additional hoops and proceedures to protect your software from piracy, over and above the money they're already paying for the right to unpack it from the box and install it? Let me think about that one. Ummm... Nope. It's your cost of doing business, not theirs. Live with it. And find a way to deal with piracy that doesn't punish your customers.... and that doesn't automaticlly assume that your customers are theives, which is what you're telling them with "authorization schemes". Following MicroSoft's lead is for sheep.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Well, at least there is no hardware dongle, like the poor Lightwave users have. I used to own Lightwave, and If the dongle became damaged or accidentally fried (as it did in my case ), the software would not work. It was a case of send it back and wait for a replacement. A new one took 3 weeks to arrive.

Personally, I think Maxon have the right idea with Cinema 4D XL 7, the 3D software I now use. You only have to register once, by email or post, and you are sent a permanent serial number that can be used no matter how many times you reinstall, change your PC or format your hard drive. And this software is far more expensive than Poser 5, and I would have thought, be more attractive to piracy problems. Just my personal opinion.

Maybe it is a sign of the times, that we now have to accept dial home software, remote registration, key code interrogation and all the other warez bullshit prevention stuff. It doesn't work, it'll never work, why bother? Poser 5 like all the other software out there will be cracked, probably within a few days of it's release so really, all the complaining isn't going to achieve anything. CL have and will continue to utilise these measures as will other companies. Meanwhile the code breakers will continue to release itsy little fixes to stop the nonsense. Those who want P5 and don't want the hassle of all this contact CL stuff. Fine, wait a few and download the patch. Everyone else can carry on with their lives happy in the knowledge that any time this security becomes a real PITA they can remove it. Personally I won't bother with P5 but only partly because of this security thing. My computer is in a constant state of flux. I move and change parts every couple of months. I've had seven hard drives in the last eight months and I've moved software from one drive to another. If P5 is going to make me dial home every time I upgrade or change something then quite frankly I don't want or need that extra hassle. I haven't purchased XP for the exact same reason though that has been cracked and was prior to it's release. Security in software is there to make the shareholders feel better, the programmers feel superior, the company execs feel safe. It's bullshit, it's always been bullshit, simply because there are too many people out there who fancy their programming skills and have something to prove. It's a shame that honest customers have to jump through an ever growing series of hoops and obstacles just to use something they've paid for when someone dishonest prat can carry on without a care in the world. Poser 4 is cracked Avatar Lab is cracked Pro Pack is cracked Pro Pack upgrades are cracked. Will Poser 5 be any different to those who don't give a damn? I seriously doubt it. Such is life neh? Serial number and activation code is no different to a Cdilla or FlexLM dongle. It doesn't and won't work to stop piracy. End of story. Live with it, deal with it, stop screwing honest customers in the ass with bullshit excuses.

The installer generates a unique Challenge Code that > requires an equally unique Response Code to unlock. Anthony, is this a one-time response or must I enter it each time I start Poser? Michael

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I think most people in this thread are forgetting something: software protection doesn't work. I, and probably many other legitimate buyers, wouldn't be so upset about this scheme if it actually did prevent piracy. But as stated in previous threads, all it does is incovenience honest buyers. The pirates won't have to go through any of this and will have a better and easier time installing P5. As far as this being the "coming thing," it may or may not be. I think things like this push people to piracy who normally wouldn't do it. I know a computer vendor who gives away his copy of XP with every computer he sells so his customers don't have to register. He's never done that before. If people get mad enough software sales will plummet but software use won't.

Ooops! Cross-post with Questor.

All I know is I stopped using all Microsoft products (Except the OS) because of this registration scheme. I upgrade my machine once every quarter (Gotta love my job) and having to call Microsoft to activate the software every time because I had long since used up my 'grace' installs was a complete PITA. A 5 minute phone call might not mean much, but when you multiply it by 8 programs and being questioned like a criminal was too much. I'm sorry CL decided to go this method. I pre-ordered Poser 5 and I will let it go through, but the first time I have to call to re-register it, it won't be reinstalled. There were better methods of copy protection out there than this and this is a very poor mechanism to do it. BTW, people crack Microsoft products all the time now with their activation scheme. So much for this method working. JDexter

I feel I have to post here for one reason only. I think I was the one the brought up the scenario of CL possibly going out of business sometime in the future. Face it, no one wants to believe they will but nearly all companies do at one point or another. I'm glad to know that there is some plan in place to handle this situation if it ever occures, not having the details on this plan is good as it shouldn't really be discussed or released until such a time as it is needed. As for this kind of copy protection in general; it wouldn't be a problem if it really did stop piracy as was mentioned earlier in this post. Keep in mind that under the hood this is nothing more than a function call, usually returning either a 1 or 0. A small edit to this can force that call to always return 1 and pass a registration regardless of the number entered. With this in mind, the protection isn't any different from any other registration scheme. A cracker only needs to force a pass on this one function whether it be a challenge-response, straight serial number or hardware checking form of copy protection. It doesn't make it harder for the crackers to pirate, it only makes it more obvious to the paying customer and a bit more inconveniant. Now with all that said, I will add one more thing here that might put it all in perspective: "Locks are only there to keep honest people honest."

KattMan... research "Virtus Software" and "ConceptCad" sometimes. They used a similar PITA authorization, and then stopped production of ConceptCad and support of it without any warning to their customers... and that was a $1500 Cad/3D prog. A lot of people who didn't catch the minute blurb on it in a thread on one of the Cad forums got left with unworking copies of the prog that couldn't be reinstalled...

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

"The registration process includes a grace process". Does this mean we can Install and run Poser 5. before we complete the registration.? If so how long is the grace period.? Or perhaps I misunderstood the post

Well...MAYBE WE CAN ALL RELAX.... I just had a hard drive crash...am using WIN XP HOME... Installed a new hard drive....formatted and installed XP... It has to be activated...thought to myself, here goes trouble...hit the send button...it went right through, no problems...I didn't have to call anybody. So if the Poser 5 security is similar, depending on what portion of the hardware the security is keying on, it all may be a moot issue. It is a fact security measures do not work...there are cracked copies of Microsoft products, and every other product imaginable. Again, the only people annoyed and having to deal with the security measures are the honest people. The others just keep hacking away until they get what they want. Same as your house/property. Believe me, even if you have 10 locks, bars, whatever on your house, if someone wants in badly enough, and if your security is that tight it just invites entry, someone will get in. The new issue, however, is that software companies ARE NOT DOING THIS TO STOP PIRACY PER SAY....they are doing it to stop consumers, and mainly home consumer/hobbyists, from installing the software on more than one system. How many of you use an operating system such as win 98 on all machines in your house....installing it from a CD that came with perhaps the first system you bought...I"m sure nearly everyone. OR from the one copy of Win98 SE that you bought....the new MS scheme stops that type of useage...it doesn't stop piracy such as hacking, cracking etc.... Even this CL security is the same...laptop and desktop of same user..sure, but what about the system my kid uses networked to mine down the hall...can I slap it on there for him to use? Its still MY system....I wouldn't mind paying perhaps a small licensing fee to be able to use a product on all my systems, but I refuse to buy 5 copies of a program to install it on all my computers.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

Ironbear, In that situation I would be breaking out my hex editors fast. A few well placed bits bypasses all registration techniques. Now for anyone wanting to know, I will not share my knowledge on how to do this with one excpetion, you already have the tools installed on your machine when you run either windows or dos. The knowledge would be aquired only by studying machine code directly. With Ironbears example it shows one reason why crackers will never be extinct. Anyone using that program is now actually using it illegally according to the EULA although they could probably win a court case stating fair use as they did have it bought and paid for, only now they need a shadier method of actually using the thing. This example also shows why I am wary of this kind of protection scheme. Legal users were the only ones hurt by this method, so in effect all they got was headaches for giving a company thier cash. If thier business relied on this application, they could have been shut down or lost even more money trying to quickly convert all of thier projects to whatever new application they decided to use.

nosfiratu: "According to most EULAs, software is something like renting a sofa: You pay for the privilege of having a piece of furniture in your house subject to certain conditions, however the sofa remains the propery of the rental company." yes, but rental company wouldn't want me to sign the agreement again when i change my fridge or pictures on the wall. and when i don't want that sofa any more, i get part of my money back. i don't think that cl will pay me back when i don't want to use poser any more. ----- nosfiratu: "Curious Labs values our customers' privacy and takes steps to safeguard that information. For example, we do NOT sell your information." you may not, it may be stolen from you (happens all the time), someone from your stuff may give it away (nothing new) or another company, which is not bound by your words of honour, may buy you and do whatever they want with your database (also nothing new). --- nosfiratu: "Your daily life is rife with security measures designed to keep people from stealing your property (door locks, window bars, alarms, access cards, passwords, firewalls, virus scanners, etc.). Crime is something we must all live with. You complain about being honest people who have to pay for crime by being forced to register Poser 5. It's a valid complaint and I personally agree with you in principle. The mere concept that honest people must alter their behavior and spend resources to guard against crime is abominable." and that's exactly why i don't want to give my data away. you are looking at it only from your point of view. there are thousands of your customers who have the same worries but no meenings or power to do something about it as you do. --- cl is one of those rare companies who are very close to their customers. or so it was. it seems as if cl is heading the same way as metacreations did - forget about friendliness, just grab the money. cl is on it's way to become just another faceless software producer who ignores their customers as long as it's alone on the market. i wouldn't consider it as any kind of proof to show my eula together with the micro$oft's or appl's. those are major players and just couldn't care less about what people think about their product. they monopolised it and customers have plain no choice but to obey. guess why mac version of p5 comes later? right. "call home" didn't work for microsoft, the number of illegal xp installations is roughly the same as with w98 or w2k. why should it work for cl?

heh heh. That's one way, Katt. ;] In that particular case though, we were both members of that particular Cad forum. My roomie and I lit up Virtus's phone lines for a week, all the way up to the VP of the marketing division, once the salesman who sold it to us professed being unable to help. They sent us two no serial, unlimited seat lisence copies just to keep our attorney from calling a second time... Don't know about you, but 2 x $1500 adds up to real money in my household. ;] It's a crying shame too: ConceptCad is probably the simplest, fast 3D architecture program I own - fantastic for doing quick architectural roughs and designs for export elsewhere. It's possibly the most used 3D modeler I own when I have a need for what it does best... Should have been a lot more popular than it was, but it's an Autodesk world out there.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Unless I'm mistaken the code is the system code for you machine, not your hard disk so there shouldn't be a problem. This is usually done to keep someone from just moving the info from the hard drive to another computer or cd. Now: I would feel better about this if I knew that CL had implemented a "crack" that could be sent by email in the case of the company's demise. No cost of shipping cd's out and I would feel better. Please work on that CL, shouldn't be that hard to create and set aside for us. I pre-ordered and I still intend to use Poser5, but it would have been professional as well as courteous to your customers if you had mentioned this before the pre-oreder information went up. Is this why you got everyone in a lather to order? Makes one wonder. Marque

Let's take this in a different direction. We all agree that a company has the right to protect thier software from illegal usage or even multiple usage by a legal user. Let's take it from the standpoint of piracy rather then consumerism. This leaves us with only the task of preventing illegal copies by a non-paying user. How would we actually prevent this? Computer scienctist have been trying to figure this one out for years with no solution. With all good intentions they have come up with thier current schemes, but have failed to actually solve the problem. SO how could we solve this in practise rather than theory? Even the best minds haven't figured it out yet. Until they do, legal users will always be the ones to suffer. Anyone that does come up with a way to do this will be a very rich man indeed.

Oh no, I,m sooo tired of this. Once again, honest people get kicked for their honesty. I was on the way to preorder P5 too, but now .. no, no support from me for this kind of reward. Like Questor and other people said, it doesn,t work and it will not work and you know that CL. So what,s your planning for real? Robert

Anthony said, "I personally feel betrayed at having my hard work and that of people I care about rewarded by being stolen." One of my co-workers, while in Gdansk actually was offered pirated copys of CBT modules that I and others at my company worked on. The thing is, we don't belive our customers betrayed us, and we would never punished our legitamate customers for someone else's underhanded actions. You might think the software company I work for is naive because we would never pull something like this. But just because Microsoft can get away with it, doesn't make it right.

Let me talk about this from a developers viewpoint and namely my own. This should not be considered a general viewpoint held by all or even most developers. When I write a program I feel I own the source code itself. I feel I own my copy of the compiled program. By this same token I feel anyone purchasing my program actually owns thier copy of the compiled program. They can do with it as they please but they only own thier one copy. The problem with this thinking is purely legal and I will break from it when the need arises. A compiled program is still nothing but source code although in a different form. Someone can actually edit the machine code and cause the program to do nearly anything the wish it to do. It also runs into the problems of rights. If you actually do own that copy, what legalities are going to prevent you from maing a copy of your owned copy and giving it to someone else? This is where I would break from it. We can go around all the legal loopholes this provides arguing that you now have a new copy you do not own or that it is simply a copy of what you own and therefore is still owned by you to give away as you wish. This tells you why the ownership is stated the way it is in nearly all software licenses. The company doesn't want to give up ownership in any fashion that will allow an individual to give away all copies for free. Software is a unique product as it is easily copied without change in quality or usability. A car is different as you can't just push a button and make an exact duplicate to give away, if you could then you would never be owning a car of any type, but I bet we would have more traffic then we do today.

My God, all this complaining over something that is a MINOR inconvenience on a very few occassions Fine. When P5 is released for the Mac, tell me how I'm supposed to install it on both my tower and my laptop. This should be interesting.

CuriousLabs got SPANKED when the ProPack was warezed. They lost a ton of money. They are desperately trying to keep this from happening again. And we need to support them. ONLY......... . . . . . . They kicked themselves in the *ss again! I would very much like to take over customer service for them. They just keep getting themselves into trouble when it's avoidable! The proper way to handle a situation like this follows: 1.)Keep the customers very intimate with the company's problems. And treat customers like partners. 2.)Once that is established, and everyone feels like a valuable part of the company. You explain that you need to implement a security system to protect the company and it's users. 3.)Then explain the protection will only be for a set period of time (something like 12 months)until the flood of orders for the new software slows down. Then customers can contact CL for a permanent serial number or patch. . It's not really that difficult of a problem to solve. You ask the users to help. And the users begrudgingly go along with the hassels for a while to do thier part. Then you reward the customer with no registration hassles after the company makes it's initial cash run. All it takes is working together as a team. And not keeping things secret until the last moment. But what do I know? I'm just some strange guy who makes dinosaurs. ;-) ScottA

So on the whole there seems to be a concensus. Anti Piracy schemes are always unpopular with legitimate users and while they may reduce the amount of piracy, they don't eliminate it. Also there is no real evidence that they generate additional sales from people who otherwise would have pirated copies of the product, and certainly not enough to counterbalance the loss of legitimate users who have been put off. And, although it may not be legal or ethical, there are certain people who use warez to like to "try before buy" their products rather than taking advantage of the return options. CL were discouraged from implementing this scheme with ProPack by reasoned arguments. I am sorry that they seem not to have taken them to heart. It will probably be as much to their own (financial) disadvantage as the purchasers. Bill PS. Schlabber, I believe it is strictly against the EULA of Poser 4, let alone Poser 5, to render on one machine while working with the main app on another, so in that respect nothing has changed. However, in the absence of network rendering or second processor support, and considering that Poser will effectively lock up your machine during renders, it would have been nice if the EULA had made a special (book analogy) exception in this case.

I understand the arguments against the security measures, however, I have received emails "out of the blue" from warez sites and most every other software company with significant investments in high quality software are moving toward the security or monitoring of the installs. There has to be an industry balance between the obvious cost of the software and the number of computers that can "house" the programs. I have had several upgrades and hard drive changes which require me to spend hours reloading the software. it becomes another step to get new permissions to install on my computers; I rearrange the software over two computers because I want to keep my software uses together....graphics as opposed to my general use; what with viruses and warez the honest computer user is put into a defensive mode over the extra work they have to do just to enjoy the investment they make in software, or at least that is how I feel. the software industry has listened to the consumers and I think that CL is not being intrusive at all. In fact I think that with an identifiable customer base it is clearly more manageable than say windows....I mean in terms of monitoring extra installs. I think we as consumers are making as much of an investment in the software as the software company is making in us so we need each other to understand the limits to our financial investments. I for one would rather put up with any hassle with contact with CL to have great value for my investment. I would like them to understand that I just cannot aford to buy x copies just so I can use the program on different machines; they have listened to that aspect it seems. What I am reading is that I can install on several machines for convenience. I read that they will be offering Multi-user licenses which I think is excellent so a company can afford to have several people working on projects with the program. I think those who are not going to "buy in" on the security are going to miss many great features....I believe that CL has been more than kind to its customers and I am willing to extend them the courtesy of interacting with their attempts to monitor installs. Bring on Poser 5!!!! I love Poser and am ready for the new features!!!

Crossed posted with you there Scott. * CuriousLabs got SPANKED when the ProPack was warezed * This was an assumption. There were also, at the same time, widely discussed concerns regarding the value for money of the ProPack for many users. Bill

I see CL's new protection scheme as a way to stop or hinder the "common pirate", not the crack/hacker. I can't tell you how many times I've been contacted by folks who have ported Poser over to their friends/cousins/brothers computer to make wrestling/comicbook/porno images... and have asked me for help with the program. I can't hold anything against CL for taking their protection up a notch. Hopefully it will slow down that sort of activity a bit.

As it's been stated, there's no way to stop the hardcore hacker, but why not try to slow down Junior next door? I don't see it as a way of hurting the honest person... I'd rather have all of this verification then a huge price hike any day.

I came, I rendered, I'm still broke.

There are other methods of copy protection just as effective(ineffective?) as this method, yet they are not as penalistic. This was the easy way out for them and the harder way out for the consumer. It's a bad move and does need to be re-examined. JDexter

What about moving Poser5 to another drive? I frequently install Poser on my C: Drive and then move it to a Firewire Drive when I need space of something. Then move it back when I can. Can I still do that? Can I pay an extra $100 and get copy with a registration number hard coded in that I can use as I please. (As long as it isn't piracy of course.)

Hello Anthony, just a short question about that 2 PC thing ... I have 2 PCs (not a PC and a notebook) ... one is at home one is at office. Can I install Poser 5 on both mashines? (hehe ... for sure I cant use both PCs at once :) ) Or is it only allowed to install it on a PC and a Notebook? Thanks for your answer ... Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

stirkwurk: "As it's been stated, there's no way to stop the hardcore hacker, but why not try to slow down Junior next door?" it's unpopular, but let's face it, that junior next door will never spend 1000 $ for poser + additional figures/textures. i'd really want to know what are the gains software companies achieve with these method (if any). i'm afraid that what they are after are information about customers, what hardware/software do they have and thus to know in which direction to invest the money for further versions.

Bottom line is Everything get's warezed at some point. If this proves to be a problem, and ANY SOFTWARE COMPANY (Not just C-Labs) doesn't resolve it... then the NEED for the crack will eventually be what will make piracy of their product acceptible. If using the keys to my car get so complicated that I can't drive it without a problem I WILL get it hot wired to make life easier for me. Even if it's on a lease. But sadly we are at the point where this makes sence. It can buy C-Labs the few weeks it needs to make a lot of sales they might otherwise have lost. I don't like it. If it gets in my way I will go around it. But as long as i don't have a problem... I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM. ;-)

In order to remain compliant to the agreement and still safe money... I have Poser on a removeable hard drive that I carry to and from work. Are you saying that I will not be able to do this with Poser 5 because the two machines are unique and it would requiz me? If so... that SUCKS! I won't be upgrading to Poser 5 for a while... IF EVER.

In order to remain compliant to the agreement and still safe money... I have Poser on a removeable hard drive that I carry to and from work. Are you saying that I will not be able to do this with Poser 5 because the two machines are unique and it would requiz me? If so... that SUCKS! I won't be upgrading to Poser 5 for a while... IF EVER.

I've already pre-ordered P5 so I'm stuck with whatever protections scheme CL is running but I'm with Bug on this one, I feel a bit screwed over. After the Pro Pack debacle CL asked us to report warez, because of the hit they took. A lot of people did. What was the result.... an amnesty deal on P4 so people with 'lost' or warezed SN could get a legit number, at a cheaper price than most of us legitimate users payed when we bought it. I voiced my displeasure with CL's decision then along with many other legitimate users. Now P5 is here and WE are having to jump through hoops to use the software we are renting (nice reminder Anthony), while the scum will still hack it, crack it and be using it for free. Then a year or two from now the warez crowd can go legit again at half the cost. All to CL's benifit. Tell me how I'm not supposed to see that as CL giving its customer base a kick in the face?

Just some thoughts: Lock on cars are to keep the "average" person from just opening the door and taking your stuff. If a professional burglar/ theif wants to take your car, it's gone- he can disarm and alarm system and wire the car before anyone sees a thing. (That's why he's called a "professional") The same goes for software- the registration keys keep "average" people from copying it and using it multiple times. The professional pirates/ hackers have all kinds of tools available, such as code-generator programs that create fake registration keys and the ability to disable the "challenge" code OR even disable the "requires CD" protection". So, if you're really concerned about "security", do what a number of other graphic artists are doing: Purchase the software (in this case, Poser 5) for the full retail price. You how have a fully legal, licensed copy. Next, go to a p2p site and download a cracked version of the software. Install and use the cracked version on your PC. Now, you don't have to worry about the "challenge" code failing or CL going out of business or your "dongle" breaking or anything else. And since you purchased the product (it's sitting there on your shelf, still in the box), you are completely legal. --John

VanishingPoint... Advanced 3D Modeling Solutions

Just to clarify some of Anthony's points, since a lot of people seem to be missing them: 1) People will be able to request multiple codes for multiple disks/machines, up to a certain (unspecified) number of times before it is queried. So users with laptop/desktop combos will be OK. 2) Reinstalling on the same disk will not require new codes, or re-accessing the CL site, only a paper copy of the existing code. 3) Installing on a removable hard disks or transferring the hard disk to a new machine will not require an additional code. I am still opposed to the concept though :-) Bill

I think it's way out of line to compare a word processing or OS to a rendering program. That's apples and oranges and it doesn't work. The issue is that many of your customers, particularly returning customers are past the baby stages in Poser and instead of encouraging them to run with it, you have hobbled them. With all the emphesis on why are there so few animators, maybe if you watched one work, you would see how this system is useless to them. If we pay for a program we should be able to do the work the program advertizes in a way that make sence in time. This means being able to work on the next scene one one computer while the other computer is rendering. What becomes funny is the warez person doesn't have the dilemma. With their crack or key or whatever they use, instead of 2 machines, the program is working on hundreds. I do understand security, but I do know that locking doors excetera is only a pretence. It says I am not here and would like you to stay out. It only works with decent people who wouldn't have openned the door if it was unlocked without a welcome. Thieves find the lock an invitation. It seems your security system hurts more than benefits you.

Well, y'know, way back when, we had no registration codes, just the software. You didn't "license" it; you bought it. If a newer version came out, you sold or gave the older one to someone else so they could use it. And it was no big deal. Then we got serial numbers to make sure we were indeed the true user, and the numbers became these huge strings of letters and digits that almost guaranteed getting screwed up the first time you write them. Now we have challenge codes as double check for the serial number already given to you on the package. I guess the next generation of all this will be asking my mother's maiden name and DOB as a password to get the challenge code to install the serial number to run the software in the house that Jack built.

I don't have much of a problem with the new security measures. I want CL to survive. I want to use P6, P7, P8... and that to me means supporting CL and their policy so that they can be around to continue updating their product. On some forums, it it becomes known that someone is using a pirated copy of Poser, their posts and questions are ignored. But they keep using Poser and CL doesn't get paid for their work. Of course there are hackers and crackers who can get around any security measures - and if someone is insistent enough, they can find a warez site that has what they're looking for. But for people like me, I am perfectly willing to PAY for the software and comply with their security measures. Poser is neat. I like to use it. They deserve my money and cooperation. How would you like it if you were a free-lance artist trying to make a living with computer graphics, you made a kick-*ss illustration using Poser, but then someone else hacked your computer, stole the file and gave it away to magazines and galleries, or better yet, SOLD copies of it to whomever wanted it? Or bought a print from you and then copied the print and sold their copies? If you buy a signed, numbered art print, you are NOT buying the right to copy that art and resell it. You're not buying the work of art itself - you're buying a copy of the art. The owner of the copyrights has the right to protect their product. The fact that some people will get away with violating the copyrights doesn't mean that the owner shouldn't do what they can to prevent it. Heck, that's what companies like Digimarc are all about, isn't it?

"* CuriousLabs got SPANKED when the ProPack was warezed * This was an assumption." This is exactly what I'm talking about. You guys just don't know what's really going on at CL. Everything is just hearsay. And that seems to generate a lot of avoidable problems. If you guys were a bit closer with the company. You'd have a better understanding of the problems they have to deal with. And why they do what they do. I guess I know too much. But not quite enough. ;-) ScottA

Attached Link: Microsoft's Activation information

IMHO, there is still a degree of vagueness in the process that needs to be discussed. However, seeing as how CL seems to be either unwilling or unable to disclose this information, I have made my decision not to purchase P5 or any other versions that contain this type of security scheme until it is either removed or revamped and discussed properly so I, as a paying consumer, can fully understand my legal rights and obligations in the process. A lot of posts liken this to Microsoft's Activation scheme. However, if you view the link, Microsoft goes through a full disclosure of the process and explains it in a manner that people can understand. I recently purchased a copy of XP Pro, and I will activate it because the process is fully described and documented. Therefore, if anything goes wrong there is a baseline of information I can use at my disposal to request compensation or other remedial actions. To this point, CL has shown me that it is unwilling to trust the legitimate users with pertinent information regarding this "simple" process (ie, just what *will* trigger a new activation? how many times can you reactivate without being hassled? etc). I have P4 and ProPack and I was excited about all of the new features in P5 that would make my life easier. However, in my opinion, the lack of information and reassurance by CL to quell the legitimate concerns of its consumers causes me to question the true underlying reasons for this activation scheme. In addition, there are several points in the EULA that are unclear and, quite possibly, not even legally enforceable. I will wait to see what the other consumers think after they have had the product for awhile before re-evaluating my decision. Chances are, if I wait long enough, I can probably get the full version at a greater than 5-6% discount currently offered by preordering as well - a double bonus.

I brought this issue up earlier, and there are a couple of reasons it has been loud. This is a slippery slope. First it identifies you, then it tracks you, then suggest a subscription, then it will force you to pay a yearly fee. This is something happening with Microsoft. I am not saying CL future plans are evil, but it is in a direction most people would think is bad. Several test drive software that is pirated. I know of 5 people who they got pirated versions (not from me), and tried Poser out. Two deleted it when they realized it was not for them. Two bought full copies, and I think one still used the pirated. Because of this Curious got two purchases of Poser, when they would have had none (but none of the people even thought of downloading the demo, thinking it was bad, errors, beta, unsupported, etc...) CL has my credit card number. If some creates a hack with my Serial Number, they can charge me for distrubiting software. Or if they think I have not bought Item XYZ at their store. Several people had threats if they did not buy textures and etc... Lastly Curious Labs listens. They hear our complaints, when we hate what MS does, we can not effect change. But the community is hoping that we can pursade CL to change. I would prefer more privacy then security measures.

John - I suggested the same thing in another thread. I don't know if it IS above board, but it will certainly be tempting. How to drive people to the pirates ... hmm. Virtualsite - "Well, y'know, way back when, we had no registration codes, just the software. You didn't "license" it; you bought it. If a newer version came out, you sold or gave the older one to someone else so they could use it. And it was no big deal." - Too right. A lot of this EULA business seems to me like a con that the big software houses have put over us, by persuading politicians who are ignorant of computing to pass legislation suitable to the softcos' business case. Ordinary copyright law should provide sufficient legal protection against copying without introducing the concept of licensing. If I buy a book, it is against the law for me to photocopy the whole thing and pass it to someone else. Nevertheless, I don't license the book. Nor do I license a music CD, which is just as easy to copy as software. This is why I'm not receptive to arguments along the lines of "all the other EULAs say this that and the other".

Considering the anstonomical render times that animation is going to take, I think it's pretty lame that CS expects us to buy 2 (or more) copies of Poser, just so we can continue using it while the second copy on another computer is trudging away at an animation that might take DAYS to complete. Poser 5 doesn't have network rendering, does it??? They aren't being realistic about how some people intend to use the program. Might as well strip all of the animation code out, and sell a seperate "Poser animation" program that plugs into the modeling and posing part of the main program, like PPP does with other apps. Which brings up another point... PPP has freely downloadable plugin files for OTHER applications that have distributed network rendering. So, let's say somone has 2 different programs (for example.. Lightwave and World Builder) that are BOTH rendering animation with Poser scene files in them, on 2 computers each. Aren't they violation CL's EULA agreement? If so, maybe CL's outta add the PACE system to all of the plugin files, too! And have the plugins check to make sure there's no other plugin implementation being used on the network, at the same time. It should also make sure that Poser isn't being used at the same time, either, since technically, it's already being used within other applications. By the way.. Both World Builder's, and Lightwave's network rendering are built in. Neither company expects people to purchase multiple copies of their software, just to render animation. They are simply being realistic about it, and realize just how flippin' LONG it can take to render animation. GET REAL, CL! From what I've seen in the Poser 5 manual I downloaded from your web site, there hasn't been much of anything done to make animation easier than it's been in Poser 4. Still a giant PITA, for sure. The number of times that I've had to re-render sections, because of things like shadows going crazy; or that awful spline implementation trying to turn models into pretzels. Animating in Poser is ENOUGH of a chore. I sure as hell am not going to pay 2 or 3 times over, just to have the "privledge" of not having to sit on my thumb, because the only copy of Poser I have, is rendering animation. I don't think CL should expect anyone who wants to do animation, to have more that one lisence, just so they can work with Poser and render at the same time. For what it would cost, that person would be better off with a fuller application that's able to render Poser into the ground, across multiple machines, WITHOUT being expected to buy multiple copies.

Hi Scott I'm not trying to assumptions here, I don't know if anthing else is going at CL, but I also don't see what bearing it may have on the debate. As I remember, there was a statement or post from someone at CL (Steve Cooper?) that ProPack sales dropped noticebly when the warez sites opened up, with the implication that the two were directly connected. This is the assumption that I was referring to. It implies that a large proportion of people who were prepared to purchase legitimate copies of ProPack suddenly decided to go for the warez instead, and also that a proportion of people who use warez were also prepared to purchase legitimate copies rather than wait for a short while for free, illegal, software to become available. This does not ring entirely true to me. The fact is that software sales do show dynamics, after the initial rush it may not be entirely unexpected that sales will show a dramatic fall if early community feedback has not been entirely positive. Simulataneously there will alsways be a delay of a few weeks before the warez copies become available. I would be interseted to see CL's figures on the proportion of ProPack registration. If warez users were buying ProPack at the outset, they may have been less inclined to register, and therefore the proportion to register could be expected to rise after the warez copies became available and these people fell out of the legitiamate ordering process. Bill

Anthony: Will P5 try and register online from the machine I install on? I have isolated machines that I only connect one way network wise to avoid hacking and virus infection. The machines I install on are one way meaning they can't see out but I can send to them. Can I complete the installation process on an isolated machine. I would assume of P5 can go onto a laptop then yes. I have purchased software in the past that insisted on a net connection so it could register at a URL. A real pain. Other than that I'm all for the protection. If nobody intends to make illegal copies then its a non-issue. As for the arguement that no copy protections is safe, P5 will be hacked anyway so why bother you can use the analogy of a locked car. Any real thief can break into a car. A brick, prybar and a screw drive and 3 minutes will claim your car. But we all still lock our car doors. Why, if the car can just get stolen? Because the locking reduces the set of people that can steal the car. Leaving it unlocked with the keys in the ignition invites a much broader set of theives ie casual thieves, people who don't know how to hotwire a car but maybe tempted to steal one if its easy enough. Its one thing to have your car stolen even after you locked it and turned the alarm on. Its another to get it stolen cause you left the car door open with the engine running while you ran into 7-11 to buy cigarettes. CL isn't going to stop every thief. Gear heads who really want to steal P5 will crack it with time. CL wants to stop casual theft. There is also the issue of activily protecting your property. If CL does nothing to protect their interest it can be argued their software is public domain. Plus I would imagine P4 will come down in price to the point that even poor college kids can buy it. And looking at the galleries so far people have done some amazing things with P4.

You know.... some of you people annoy the friggin' hell outta me. Gotta have something to complain about. 1. Anthony has stated that you'll be able to put it on several computers without any flags being waved. 2. If you reformat your harddrive it "should" not require you to re-contact CL. (He'll let us know.) 3. We all know that copy protection doesn't work for the professional cracker. 4. This copy protection is primarily for the casual copier; making another copy for cousin, friend, etc. If they see what you've got and they like it, $350 isn't too much to shell out for a program that does this much. And if they can't buy it right away - they do what all honest people do; they use Mommy & Daddy's credit card or they SAVE for it. And I could go on and on. Contrary to (the apparently) popular belief that EVERYONE knows where to download cracked versions of programs... that isn't true. Not everyone wants to or does. And those who do and don't know how/where... well... maybe they'll buy their copy because they'll be reading this list and hear how absolutely fantastic the software is! You know what? If you don't like the copy protection system they've got, fine. DON'T BUY THE SOFTWARE. Again, you need something to complain about. Currently I'm sticking with W2k and not bothering with WinXP simply BECAUSE of that sort of copy protection. (Well, that and the fact that apparently W2k is more stable:) So... I'm NOT buying that product from them. On the flip side, I think Poser 5 is gonna be kickass. So... this copy protection may be annoying, but then I've got three seats of Lightwave so I'm used to this MINOR irritation. And YES, it IS minor. Someone brought up the fact that they don't want to have to call Ford every time they get into their car to go to work. What kind of lame analogy is that? It doesn't equate to this copy protection at all. You DON'T have to call CL everytime you use Poser - just when you switch computers. Well... if you move to a different state, you DO have to re-register your car in that state. And in NJ (where I am), if you move from this house to that house you also have to inform the state. Hassle? Yes! Necessary? Well, to the state it is. And... it's the law. Oh, you say you're registering with the state and NOT Ford? Well, like someone else here already said, you're NOT copying the car to the new state - you're taking the same car since it can't be duplicated. Software can be duplicated. Just think about it. It will sink in eventually. Legitimate questions are great. Can I install Poser 5 on a second machine? Do I have to re-register everytime I reformat? Can I put it on my laptop AND desktop? Can I put it on my work machine and my home machine? Etc. But to everyone who is complaining about this copy protection and saying that NOW they're NOT going to buy Poser 5.... fine.... again, DON'T FRIGGIN'BUY IT. I WILL buy it - already pre-ordered. And so have three other friends I have that DON'T have cracked copies nor any intention of looking for them. Curious Labs is NOT a big company. They are doing this because it's the cheapest way out for them and us. Perhaps next time they'll go with a dongle? You'd like that wouldn't you? YOU try being a small company and having your software copied and given to friends. Oh but Megalodon, it's going to be cracked anyway. Well... duh, I did say the CASUAL COPIER - not the experienced hacks that post it on the web. READ. Instead of giving major grief to the small company (CL) - why don't all of you who've decided NOT to buy the software (or even those who just want to complain) because of this copy protection system start a campaign against Micro$oft where it will do some "real" good. Start picking on the "Big Guys" instead of the smaller Curious Labs that live from software release to software release. It's SO easy to complain about your "incredible inconvenience." Hell, most of us in THIS country (USA) and those who CAN buy this software have it easy - REAL EASY. Start thinking of the others less-fortunate in this world and where does that put your "incredible inconvenience?" I can tell you where but I do draw the line at SOME language. Ohhh... boohoo... woe is me who has to call or e-mail CL every time I put Poser 5 on another computer. Oh, but Megalodon, I have twelve software packages that have me do the SAME thing. And now, another one? Ohhhh, that's SOOOO terrible. And those of you who have to reformat your drive five times a month?... you've got something wrong with your system. Fix it. People - get a life! MOST Sincerely, Megalodon

Heya, Megalodon... Guess you don't realize that you are complaining about people complaining? "Waaaaaa! Look at all the people who are complaining! Waaaaa!!" Sheesh...

I do agree with Magalodon in some points. If you don't like it. DON'T BUY IT!!! There are always alternative. Well, I will go to art store and get some watercolors and hotpress boards again. to jimevans 2000: computers and softwears are not Art. They are Tools.

For clarification for you guys: 1) Your authorization is based entirely on your Hard Drive. You can change everything in your machine, but as long as the authorized HD still exists somewhere in it you don't have to re-authorize. It will -not- survive a reformat, but your same challenge and response code will work after the reformat. So you should print/save your registration after completion and keep a copy somewere handy. 2) Assumptions being made about cracks are grossly exaggerated. Im not about to post the dirty details of the encryption scheme, but I can tell you your hex editor wont find anything useful. Curious has utilized a third party that has a staff of scientists that stay on top of these issues and have tools that have a long running history of doing their job. 3) Grace period. You have a Grace period to run the app w/o registering it. That way you can play/use the all while you wait for your carrier pigeon to get to us. Rylan Hazelton Curious IT Geek

SO! Anyone tried a beta copy yet?

The fact of the matter is... honest people will pay for the software and dishonest people won't. I haven't heard of a copy protection scheme yet that hasn't been cracked and the software distributed. So what is CL really doing? To use the car analogy, they are putting a 9 digital combination lock on our car doors. So we sit there everytime we want to get in the car and dial the combination (5 left, 9 right, 27 left, etc.). The bad guys come... look at the lock... laugh hysterically about the stupidity, then break the window, open the door from the inside and drive away with your car. It's insanity. I've said it before and I'll say it again... their copy protection scheme does nothing but annoy the legitimate users. I'm sure within a week people will be posting to the board that they see Poser 5 on the warez sites... or kaaza... or wherever it is they it shows up. Thanks for looking out for us CL... (snicker)... we REALLY appreciate you making it easy for your customer who keep you in business, while making it simple for the people who hack your software - who will be able to bypass this stupid register code. (SMACK!)

If not for the new protection scheme I would have already preordered Poser 5. When comes to Windows XP, many people are doing what JHoagland suggested; they are buying legitimate copies of XP but are installing a cracked version. There is a danger that the Poser 5 protection scheme may drive legitimate users to use hacked versions of Poser. Many more people will not even bother and get no version at all. As for myself Ill take wait and see approach. Once Poser 5 is out we will know for sure how much of a hassle the new protection scheme will be, then Ill decide whether or not to get it.

I already have some software that uses this same type of protection. It took like 5 minutes to get a new code for a new machine. So If I weigh the advantages of Poser 5 over the disadvantage of the trip to the web site for a new code number, I don't have to think about it long before I make my decision. It's an inconvenience, that's true, but would it keep me from buying Poser5? Hardly.

People complain about the long numbers, but if you register over the web, you can cut and paste that long number error free in a few seconds. It aint no big deal, at least not for me.

Well, I have to admit, I just don't get it folks. Except for those who legitimately need to run two copies at once, all the arguments and unhappiness don't seem worth it to me. Lord knows there are many more serious hassles in life than activating a piece of software. Obviously other people feel differently and a few say they are willing to lose the money they prepaid to back their principles. I don't understand it but I'm glad people are that willing to stand up for their beliefs. Actually, I'm glad all of you are not going to upgrade. Since I can't afford P5 for a while, it means more people who'll still be talking about something other than P5 around here. Of course if anyone want's to sell their copy (which for reasons of principle they won't use) at a 50% discount, let me know. "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees." - Benito Juarez

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

"If CL does nothing to protect their interest it can be argued their software is public domain." No, that's not true. Copyright is copyright. Nothing is public domain unless it is explicitly stated to be. Incidentally, isn't there a slight irony in the fact that CL wish us to trust them with our personal data, but they clearly don't trust us with their software?

Rylan, "2) Assumptions being made about cracks are grossly exaggerated. Im not about to post the dirty details of the encryption scheme, but I can tell you your hex editor wont find anything useful. Curious has utilized a third party that has a staff of scientists that stay on top of these issues and have tools that have a long running history of doing their job. " They may be doing their job, but everything get's cracked. Maya, Lightwave, They have been cracked and are being shared easily enough. When they want it bad enough and to show programmers up they WILL crack it. Unfortunantly this is unavoidable. I for one do not agree with the protection that CL is putting on it, but I am not sure yet if I will get P5 or not. I may, because it has interesting features. BUT if that protection should ever fail and cause me problems I WILL be pissed right off. I love you all at CL you do fantastic work. but I do feel that you are making it harder for the honest people to do their jobs, hobbies. The one point I am concerned about is the challenge code. Say I have to replace my hardrive many times through the year. Replace not reformat. This means I have to get a new code everytime. Right? Now HOW Many times can I get it without being assumed that I am warezing it? This is a real senario here with people upgrading all the time. I am not sure that this is a good idea, and just from this thread you are losing buyers by it. But please don't assume that it won't be cracked. The best laid protections are hacker's dreams.

I guess I don't really understand the big deal. Yes, it is inconvenient, but only when initially installed. Still, you can use it even if it isn't registered for a while. As to the analogy of a nine digit combination lock on the car, that isn't even close. All that is is a scare tactic that seems to try to tell people not to buy. You won't have to register with CL everytime you start the application. A closer analogy would be filling out all the paperwork at the car dealer in order to take delivery of a new car. You only do that once. If this is too much of a hassle for you that you don't buy Poser 5 then fine. Just don't spread misinformation. CL could have used much worse copy protection, be glad they didn't!

Unbelievable! Those of you complaining about the few minutes it'll take you to register... TOO BAD! DON'T BUY IT. Roy G hit the nail on the head. It's an inconvenience, but it ain't that tough. And how many of you who DON'T buy it right now WILL buy it later because you'll see all of the cool images that everyone who has it will post? I'll bet the vast majority. "Oh NO I won't... I'm not gonna give in to that! I'm gonna take longer to do my art because I'm NOT gonna take the two minutes it'll take to register my Poser!" Yeah... right. Cut off your nose to spite your face. Always been a wonderful concept. Again... yeah, right. But you WILL end up buying it, and then you'll realize.... gee, this isn't so bad. Why did I make such a big deal out of this? And then... will you feel dumb. I already do this with several pieces of software. Now it's part of the routine. NO BIG DEAL. Again, you people are UNBELIEVABLE!

good question Storm ... btw - long time no see :) I'm reinstalling (reformating) my compy twice a year (minimum) and I'm buying lot of new hardware (like bigger HDDs) and then I'm reinstalling Poser on a bigger new HDD (I have a good hardware dealer in town so I get about 5 new HDDs a year :) ). That are about 7 times of reinstalling Poser in a year. So how many codes are reserved for each Poser 5 user? Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

You may install Poser 3 times on one machine, 3 machines, or any combination thereof. My God, what about the fourth time? Actually, we have a couple of customers who for one reason or another have had to exceed 3 installations, usually due to upgrades, viruses, etc. What happens? A flag pops up saying "You have exceeded the maximum number of installations". You call Customer Service, verify your registration information, and get your installation counter reset. The whole process takes 90 seconds. Easy? Simple.

Using that cracked copy of XP or any other software after you have purchased a legal copy is still ILLEGAL. Or can't you guys figure that out. I'm a bit confused, as always, what the hell the big deal is. If you don't like copy protection schemes and all that...just like that guy above me said...don't buy the darn thing....but I suppose you'll go out and download that cracked copy because it doesn't have the protection scheme, because the CL copy is inconvenient, and we don't need inconvenience, so its ok...or maybe even eventually buy the real deal and then get the cracked copy, oh just for backup and convenience..its still fn cracked !!! Its like I said on a previous post, but no one commented---they aren't REALLY trying to stop piracy from the hackers, because they can't...they're trying to stop ma and pa, dick and jane, joe hobbyist from installing the program on everyone's hard drive in the neighborhood...us "honest folk" that figure it's ok to fire off a copy for Aunt Edna that would really like to play with that cool program that she saw at Johnny's house, while on her death bed and stuff..... And don't try to say I'm wrong here....most people don't have a clue what the difference between legal and illegal is anymore---they can't even obey the simplest traffic rules--such as speed LIMIT.."oh, the cops don't care if you drive 65 in a 55...everyone does it". Stop sign ????? Oh--they have this cool wireless tranmitter for the internet...hey neighbors....buy one of these for $40 and we all can have internet access.... AW, I just got this great software called Poser 5...man, you remember when we used to play paper dolls and all the jocks used to laugh at us ???? Well now you can do it with this program...and the girls even look real with breasts and stuff.....do you want me to install it on your system??? Cool !!!...I just got done putting it on my bros system down the street too....hey we can swap those models I downloaded the other day too....

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

1. if poser 5 is not a full featured web browser, sole purpose to surf the web, the firewall won't allow it to connect to the internet.( every attempt will pop up query screen from firewall) 2) the more security coding in any application, the faster that there will be cracks developed for it. yes plural as the harder the challenge the more crackers will work on it. 3)software dongles scream for crackers to hack them. a challenge code is a software dongle. 4) the comment saying that there won't be a crack is the type of comment that guarantees that there will be a warez version extremely quickly.it is a blatant invitation to do so. just got reminded of something, even physical dongles can be broken by the hacker teams that are out there. yes, CL has the right to try to protect thier property, and we have the right to choose if to purchase / upgrade or not. while I think that cl has gone a bit overboard, it is thier right to have the piece of mind by trying to protect thier property. linux is open source, there are commercial apps for linux, and it isn't easy to find anyone hacking commercial apps for linux, as there is enough free software for it that you really do have a choice of which to use. ( Blender and the gimp are good examples) yup, even saw a hacked version of maya for linux ( boy was that one tempting, but stilll only using the m$ based ple) honest people respect the restrictions, dishonest people won't. it's that simple.

I am honestly not trying to start trouble here, but this image demonstrates that where there is a will, there is always a way.

Hey Chris, S How you been? megalodon, and others who seem to be getting nasty in this thread, calm down. People are concerned and wanting answers. They have the right to ask, and I haven't seen many people getting nasty with CL but voicing those concerns. Keep this thread calm. No need to piss anyone off. Let's talk like adults.

Anthony: as I understand you right, I can install Poser as often as I want on my Mashine. Only get a new code after the 3rd time? Thats OK for me. hehe ... I dont wanted to be called a warez guy because I will request 7 codes a year :) btw ... cant wait for my copy of P5 (someone has a timemashine?) :D Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

If you don't like it don't buy it. What happened to the day when a customer was allowed to complain about a problem with a product? From the Customer Service training I've had, most companies love complaints and suggestions. After all it gives them the chance of keeping that customer, if the at least listen and try to address concerns or issues. Thats what this thread is about to me, we have the oppertunity to tell CL what we think of their decision. That gives them the chance to address it. If I was CL I'd rather see and address these concerns then have people just up and abandon the software. That said, I don't agree with or support CL's decision to include treat us as if we might be criminals after offering deals to leagalize the real warezers. I also admit I will still use P5, project decisions force me too. But will I get P6 or look for another alternative between now and then? Depends on CL's reaction and what the market brings.

Thank God there's no dongle! Anything but that. I also have WinXP and have had to replace my motherboard and then my HD - neither times did I have to call Microsoft. According to what I had read I thought for sure that I would have to. I really dislike Microsost so it's hard for me to admit that registering WinXP was no big deal and has been no problem since.
I still think I'll buy Poser 5 ;-)

Windows XP Microsoft Office XP Microsoft Frontpage 2002 Microsoft Publisher 2002 Microsoft Project 2002 These were the products my company used on a regular basis. We had it installed on 26-30 machines and had each and every copy liscensed. Then the problem with the Activation Code (CL's Challenge code it sounds a lot like) started. Here is what happened when a machine was replaced. Installed Windows XP Go through Activation online Activation failed, call 1-800-xxx for Activation (CL I assume you will have an 800 support number?) Called 1-800-xxx and listened to an obnoxious computer as it descibes to me how to enter the number. Enter number Activation failed. Hold for Rep. Rep comes on (not always a long wait) Give code to Rep. Rep asks why this software is being reinstalled. Rep. makes comment about Activation scheme and how many times you have installed. Get Activation number from Rep. Hang up phone. Windows XP Installed, proceed to other Apps. All apps installed, all fail activation. Call Microsoft, speak to computer again and single Activation fails, speak to rep. Give rep number, get questioned, get number. Give rep other numbers for other products and go through the whole procedure to get all apps activated. Give computer to user. Umm, and that was for 1 single machine. All the while, the rep is calling me Mr. Roberts because I am on their files as the reqistered user for all the software. They have a complete ownership history at their fingertips, yet they still walk you through the whole thing. Now my company uses Windows XP only. And when we get a new machine, we have it preinstalled. We don't talk to Microsoft and we don't buy their products. Granted that is an extreme situation, but for a person who is willing to go through all that crap and now they have other software from other companies jumping on that awful copy protection scheme it is unreal. SO those who say this is not a big deal, you are wrong, it is a big deal because it is just not this one software, it is the acceptance of a flawed security system that instead of protecting the software makes users abandone software they have paid for. I hate that I feel guilty even challenging this scheme, because I am an honest user, but yet this whole thing makes me feel like I am doing something wrong. The more companies that adopt this method, the worse it will be. SO if you think that simply because CL is small and it only take x number of minutes then you are going to be suprised when every piece of software you own is like that and that x number of minutes equals 3 days of phone calls to various companies trying to activate something you legitimitly paid for. Meanwhile this same software will be passed out on P2P systems completely cracked and the downloader will be up and running in no time. That, my friends, is garbage. JDexter

Hey Stom, I'm doing fine, yourself? :) Kiera: "where there is a will, there is always a way." -yes your right! but ... everything gets warezed ... each software, movie, music almost everyting ... the T-Shirt I'm wearing is warezed (sorry, just a joke). Its always better if your on the legal side, isnt it. If something goes wrong with your product you will have someone who can help you (except MS grin). Its your choise on which side you will be, the light side or the dark side (man, that sounds like Yoda :D ) If you are a legal user of a software you will get full support and you can help to make a product better. It does not matter what protection they have. As megalodon said: ITS NOT A BIG DEAL. I'm not on XP because its protection system its because its too buggie (LINUX rocks!) *** note for Kupa or Antony *** will there be a LINUX version of Poser in the future? *** There WILL be a warezed version of Poser 5 and NOONE can do anything against it ... but as I said ... its your choise. Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

I have no idea what financial losses CL has suffered due to Software Piracy no one does but them. I have read that many software customers build these potential losses into the price of their product. CL has released a product(Poser 5) which based on their claims and what I've read in the manual is an very significant improvement over Poser 4 in my humble opinion. Yet, even with all these additional features they have maintained a very reasonable price. I for one would prefer this registration procedure rather than an increase in price. I would also prefer that CL spend their efforts in making a better product for me to use, rather than having to worry about the theft of their products. If this protection scheme helps in those regards Im all for it. I would however like to have some of the details of this protection scheme. Is it based on a hardware number from my hard drive or is it based on my mother board or some combination of both? If its the hard drive is it the physical drive or is it partitioned based. Can I modify partitions without needing to call CL. I realize that CL must keep some details of the protection scheme secret or what would be the point. But a few official details would be helpful when planning to make changes on my system. I find it frustrating to find out stuff like this in the middle making the changes as it may make the job bigger than I anticipated.

JDexter: one Tip: change to Win2K or get Linux. I know what you feel ... I have called MS about 1,000,000 times and nothing get fixed. So I'm back on W2K and Linux. ... but who said you will have the same trouble with CL? just my 2 cents Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

"You know what? If you don't like the copy protection system they've got, fine. DON'T BUY THE SOFTWARE." Isn't that what most people that don't like the copy protection are stating? That they won't buy it? As a matter of fact, stuff like this can take a company out of business. Sure, Microsoft is big and mighty and all that crap, but how long do you think the customers are gonna let companies f-word them in the ass? There will come a time when Joe Average will realize that he's been played and go like: "Hey! What the...?" and stop buying software from those companies. And what is CL doing? Same thing as Microsoft: treating their customers like dirt. Don't you guys remember what happened to Wordstar? Same thing. I just finished reading this thread and it's innimaginable the amount of people that are against the implementation of such tactics. CL, you KNOW you're gonna loose more customers than you're gonna gain with this, right? For trying to make a few extra bucks, you guys are gonna loose that much more. I, for one, came to the conclusion that if Poser 4 works fine for me, what do I need Poser 5 for, if it's gonna bring all that extra hassle? Hey, I can do hair and clothing in 3D Max (clothing with a FREE plugin called SimCloth), so why bother with Poser 5? That's one shiny nail you're hammering into your coffin, CL.

When them damm credit card companys send you your credit card and then make you call that 800 number to actavate it. Who do they think they are, making me call in like that! Next thing ya know, they will put my photo on the damm thing! How dare they protect themselves and me like that! Lets look at the facts shall we: If CL did not put in a good protection, they would have to bring the cost up to offset the warez and fraud. This is simply a part of bussness. Take your pick. This is one of the best ways for them to keep the cost down. So when we say that the honest have to pay the price, your right, but it could be a much higher price.. Maybe 2 - 3 times as high. We all have to pay the price of dishonest people everyday, it's to bad, but a part of life. Why lock your car? what do you think will happen if you don't? Come on, take a chance, Afterall the real car thief will just break the windows right? But somehow, you still feel the need to lock it, Why is that? Who are you realy trying to keep out? After all the hard work CL put into P5, they should protect it. I feel this is a very fair way to go.

You can't call it work if you love it... Zen Tambour

 

pretty good Chris S Just staying caught up with current topics :)

hmmm... lukedesade ... Your on Max? As I know Max has the same protection. You need to register online (or what else) to get your auth code, isnt it? So whats wrong when CL does the same? Just a thought Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

well said Spike :) Storm: same here ;) Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

ohh ... btw ... Heya Spike - also long time no see ... how ya doing?

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

Chris, it not about whether or not CL's will be a hassle or not, it's one more company that requires an over the top activation method. It's copy protection squared when all of them go that route. I know about Win2K but for the $50 US addon price to a new system it is worth keeping XP and an operating system my users all know and work well with. If it was more expensive to add on the OS I would consider it. And there are copy protection schemes out there that do as good a job (mind you, none is perfect and all can be cracked, including this one, regardless of how many scientists worked on it) but don't cause the user the grief involved with Activation codes that work off of hardware based items. If the activation code worked off of something that followed the user it would work, but hardware is too transient to be useful. JDexter

Anthony, 3 installs! 3?!? Three? That's pathetic. What happens when I get to the 4th install (and I will)? What is starlet going to ask me? How is she going to know I'm not lying so I can install P5 on my mother's computer? What if I'm telling the truth that I bought a new computer but she THINKS I sound like someone who would lie so they can install it on my mother's computer? And please... serious question now... address international users. Say I'm a Japanese user. Will I have to call long distance to the US? What if I don't speak English? Is there going to be separate support in each country 247? If so how can teensy little CL afford that? Phoenix

Still, You don't render in Microft programs. If it took days for a letter to print, holding that computer hostage till the job was complete you better believe people would be up in arms. You cannot compare the two. Let me ask my question more clearly. What if I want to render the complex scene I just did and get working on the next scene on my second computer, rotating back and forth cutting time in half? Buying 2 or three copies, when I am doing all the work seems a silly way to spend my money. I may as well buy the big programs. I doubt I would get the upgrade special pricing from PPP two or three times anyway.

Chris, I'm good, and you?

You can't call it work if you love it... Zen Tambour

 

bitting my tongue only for the moment, just want to keep an eye on this

JDexter: Yes, there are better protections out there ... bur everything failes. For me it doesn't matter if CL knows what HDD I have and what video card (or something else). For me that kind of protection is OK and I will take any other protection if nassasary. The only thing I want is a good working product ( ok ok ... P5 will be buggie but its not a OS or something like that so bugs can be fixed much faster) Lets see what happen when everyone gets his preordered Poser 5 :) I'm sure noone will talk about copyprotection after that. Tell me if I'm wrong ;) Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

Anthony, for those of us who grew up with the desktop-publishing industry (Is it okay to admit that I still own Photoshop 1 and Illustrator 88?), we have watched as installations became more and more complex and more and more demanding. I can deal with that, but what I have issues with is your apparent lack of distinction between your core market of users and the warez thieves. You guys pulled a serious boner when you initiated that amnesty program last year: in essence, you told every legal owner of Poser that the money they dropped on the program, whether full or upgrade, was pissed away when all they had to do was get a warez copy and then pay the miniscule amount you charged to make it legal. You guys never admitted you screwed up on that one, and maybe, before you start with this PR fiasco, you should consider doing so. Yes, warez is a thorny problem. But you don't stop it by making it harder on the legal user. If your crack science team is so good, let them come up with some sort of watermarked subprogram that's built into the CD, something spread thorughout the program instead of isolated in one spot, that checks and double-checks the program for integrity. Make it truly difficult to find and your hackers are gonna be working till the wee hours to figure it out. But let's not pretend you're going to get rid of hackers by using something as relatively simple as a challenge code.

Spike, I'm fine thanks ... I think I have to get back on Rhino again the next weeks or so :) Makes the time shorter to wait for P5 :)

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

ouch, that hurts

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

The problem with your credit card example Spike is that the credit card stays with you. The code is not based on the current count of teeth in your head (or some other personal aspect of yourself) and has to be regenerated based on a tooth falling out. A very mismatched analogy. JDexter

I think this discussion is unusefull ... Poser 5 is ready for shipping and YOU can decide if you want to buy it or not. Your a the customer. If you dont like something you dont need to buy it. You know if you buy a red t-shirt it will be pink after 200 times washing ... dont you buy it because you know it? (ok ok this comparison is not so good) but you are the customer and you have the choise ... so do what YOU want. Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

Dont mind me...Just planting a surveying stake here.

Hopefully with all this dissent, CL doesn't decide to give in and change the security issue now...especially with release right around the corner.... I would like my pre-order copy asap...not after they rework the protection scheme

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

1. Your authorization is based entirely on your Hard Drive. You can change everything in your machine, but as long as the authorized HD still exists somewhere in it you don't have to re-authorize. It will -not- survive a reformat, but your same challenge and response code will work after the reformat. So you should print/save your registration after completion and keep a copy somewere handy. << Well, this has answered MY primary concern. Since I tend to use the same HD for years and years (hey, as long as it's working and I've still got space, why replace it?) and it doesn't matter if I replace my video or audio cards or even my motherboard, then I'm good to go. As it is, I keep a file of my access codes and other such items so that I know where to find them (can you say rolodex cards, boys and girls?). So, if the codes will work after a reformat (and believe me, if you have win98 you reformat from time to time otherwise your programs just up and stop working on you and who the heck has $400 for Win2K?) then I'm good to go. Thanks for the clarification, Rylan, it's appreciated. Kate

Hmm, ok yes, if you don't like the "activation"/"challenge" (insert nifty word here), then don't buy it... That's exactly what I'm contemplating. I certainly don't agree with this and will not be buying as long as this "scheme" is part of the program. I legitimately own two copies of Poser so that my wife and I can play fairly on our own computers. But since I don't agree with subscription service programs, hardware dongles, call-home programs and all that garbage - I don't buy them and wont. I have kept up what I see as my "end of the deal" as an honest user and I don't feel the need to be "tested" in such as way to prove that I'm a legitimate owner. feh. I have accepted the "serial number" in products and that's as far as it goes for me.

.

Interesting thread. I wish I could read it all, but I have to mow the grass before it starts raining. How terribly unfair it is that no matter how often I do it, the damn grass keeps growing! Maybe one day the lawn will see things my way and realize the sheer hell it puts me through, and just die. Ain't life a bitch?

Netherworks: so you will never have P5 ... but its you choise so we have to accept it. Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

MikeJ, you could always put in pavement or astroturf.

I have been reading this post and I've seen that a lot of people has valid and legitimate points. The Sad thing is that it doesn't matter how you complain about CL's security features for poser 5 they will not change a bit of the original program because this, they can make patches or upgrades for the ton of unknow bugs it will have, but the security thing is a closed discussion, so, I will ask, why spend too much energies in a lost argument?. CL's is not forcing you to buy their product, from my point of view they have been very honest with their costumers sayind what kind of protections and install options will have poser 5, that's not a usual conduct from software companies, they even let's you take the manual, before you get the program, so, let the company do what they think is better for them, and don't waste too much energies in pointless debates. Virus

SAL9000 - Hello Dr. Chandra, Will I've dream?

bravo Virus.

I came, I rendered, I'm still broke.

Hey Sturkwurk, I have said that 10+ treats before ... where is my bravo ;) (just kidding) Well said Virus Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

Hehehehe Sorry Chris! Bravo!!! :) Thanks Doug :)

SAL9000 - Hello Dr. Chandra, Will I've dream?

Thanks Virus :D

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

Hey I don't like to live in the Earth because the gravity law, If I decide to jump from a 100 floors building It will makes me to fall down and I don't like that, I would like to float, but no, the gravity law is bad and perverse for me!. So CLs team If you don't change the gravity law I will not going to buy your product, am I clear?

SAL9000 - Hello Dr. Chandra, Will I've dream?

uhmm ... changing the gravity law ... good idea but you will get in trouble with another industrie ... no bras will be needed then (just kidding) Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

Chris, yes, surely not for me. Contrairly, I think this thread is useful. I would (like to) think that CL would be interested in the concerns of their customers and so I'm very happy that Anthony let us know the protection information before the software was released - it would have been an unpleasant surprise for me. But if others want to conform to this sort of "standard" then good for them. Hehe, I'm eagerly awaiting the day that I can walk up to that "hypothetical" bridge and sit and watch everyone leap off of it.

.

So as you see ... this discussion is completely useless. You cant change the gravity law and you cant change CLs protection system. As I said many times before ... you have the choise ... buy it or not ... So I think this threat can be closed. (full stop!) Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

ok ok ... so keep this open :) but seriously, what can you change? CLs has this protection system now and I doubt that they will change it (Am I right or not, - Kupy? Anthony? -) You can discuss it to threat 500, nothing will be changed. just my 2 cents Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

Yea, I guess the discussion is useless as you say. People who want something bad enought WILL get what they want, eh?

.

who said Poser 5 is BAD???

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

Personally I do not care if I have to authorize 1 time or 2 times etc as long as the reply is a quick one (and being half a day in front dont help much), as long as it is quicker than the 24 hours I had to wait when i got my Lightwave before I could fully use it I will not mind. But if you honestly think that this will stop poser 5 being warez you need to re-think, nearly all programs are even warez before they are even friggin out for us honest people to buy. Like I said I have no problem with doing a authorize on buying or first installation, but waiting for a key each time your computer messes up or you upgrade your hard drive or change os etc can and will be annoying to a lot of people and quickly. But hey do what you feel you think is best, I have already pre-ordered mine so nothing you do or say will make me change my mind, but remember the extra security only effects and hidders honest buyers.

Chris, nope I wouldn't buy that red t-shirt. I only buy black clothing :-D as far as p5 goes, when have the money will more than likely get it, in linux, since I won't buy anything for crashware os. and if cl doesn't port to linux then they are choosing to not have me buying it.

Forgot to turn off e-maila nd this thread is gonna expand quick unless it is locked prob

Ziggy3D: thats what I said ... they all have the choise ... I ahve preordered mine too and I cant wait to have it here! For me it doesn't matter what protection system they have ... I want my copy NOW! :D Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

With one exception, I don't really mind having to the response code. It's a bother to be sure, but so are all those serial codes that are printed so small and hard to read. The one thing that bothers me is what if these companies that sold me software goes out of business and my harddrive crashes. Or I get a new machine. Anthony assures that they won't leave us hanging and that's probably more than we would get from Microsoft. And CL is actually a little more generous than some of the others using similar schemes. XP of course requires you to register within 30 days. I have Microsoft Office. (The next to last one. Can't remember what it's called.) You can only install that on one machine. And if you have to reinstall, you have to get a new confirmation code within 50 uses or it quits working. (I do think that should have been stated on the box.) And if you have to install it more than twice in two years, they start acking questions. I chrashed the first machine. Not my fault. It was due to the silly way Compaq implemented their Quick Restore with a partition. Then I got a new machine and Microsoft wanted to know how many machines I was installing it on, and whether I had removed it from the other machines. Many I was a little too touchy, but I did resented it. And they weren't exactly awful or anything, but if you're not doing anything wrong and someone questions you like you are. I guess you get touchy. I'm not sure, but I really don't believe they would let you also install this one a lap top. And then ZBrush has the same sort of security system. And of course there's Lightwave and with that silly dongle. So that brings me back to my main concern. Most companies don't plan on going out of business. And here I have several very expensive - for me - software packages. But what happens if they do and if they didn't have a plan in place. It does make me a little nervous. If I bought a lisense for a product, I should be able to use it even if the company has gone belly up. Of couse things change and life isn't perfect. Look at 8-tracks and vinyl records and CED video and Laser Discs. None of those companies care if we can use their products after they stopped making them. Kevin

Jaqui: Whats wrong with Linux?

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

Lightwave has a usb dongle now, hardly call it silly, works fine is hot swappable, most os detect and installs it easy. Another annoyance granted but doubles as a cool keyring addon:)

Chris, nuthin wrong with linux. microsht os is the one I absolutely refuse to have anything to do with on my comp. thinking about nuking redmond to get rid of the lousy sht

hehehe, well said Jaqui :) I'm off to bed :) maybe we will have more than 200 threats here. I'll look tomorrow ... night all Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

As usual you are giving problems and headaches to honest consumers, you treat them as they were criminals, registrations codes, authorizations, etc, etc, etc.... All this is completelly useless, this isn't any trouble to any warez person, almost all software can be cracked in 30 minutes of work. Remember that the warez version of Xp appeared before Microsoft release it. These procedures and also Microsoft procedures, only encourages more the use warez software. The user has now the choice of buying a protected version with a lot of headache of enabling the software and surviving of all the windows crashes and reinstallation headaches, or to adquire a warez version for free or very low cost, opened and without any headache for installing it. Stop punishing and inquiring honest people, if you abuse too much, there is the risk that they become not "too honest".

Stupidity also evolves!

My most used and registered programs are Bryce, XaraX, Paint Shop Pro, PhotoShop, Painter, Ultra Fractal, Carrara, Nendo, DreamWeaver, Organizer, Vue d'Esprit, KPT Plugins and Homesite (not to mention a host of utility and other programs.) None of them are protected by more than a serial number. Each of them is apparently available via warez yet somehow the publishers survive- except for Nendo, which seems not to be warezed (is that a word?) Poor buggers- I guess they do not realize that they are about to go out of business any day now... - Jack

I agree with what allot of people here that say: If you don't like it, then don't buy it. But I also think people should have the ability or a place in which to post their concerns (or complaints) no different than those of us that sit bouncing in our seats waiting for that red-hot copy to fall in our hands (or laps). Ever since Curious Labs put up their EULA for everyone to read before deciding to purchase Poser 5 (which they really didn't have to do, it was a curtesy so that all of you could make an informed decision before purchasing it) I have seen numerous posts regarding Poser 5 and the way it works. All over the Community there has been people posting concerns about the registration process needed to run Poser 5, concerns as to how "this or that" works, concerns about "if this has been fixed or not", concerns about ownership of Poser content and formats, concerns about the security of Content Paradise, computers and the Internet Portal that Poser 5 uses within the software. Concerns about the ability to virus scan the files before they are extracted into the software. Concerns on the future of Curious Labs verus today's (obviously questionable) economy. Curious Labs is very good at handling situations and trying to answer questions that people may have. I know for a fact that Steve Cooper comes to these threads and reads everyone's concerns and says: "yep, that's something we need to look into..." or "we've already handled that and here is how we have" or "this is why we did what we did", they do listen to the comments, complements, complaints and concerns that the members have. Not just here, but at ALL of the Community websites out there. Do they care about their product and want to protect it? You're damn right they do! Do they care about what we have to say? Bet your ass they do. And for those of you that are concerned or changed your mind, their EULA even allows you to return the product to them (unopened) so you can get your money back. Yes, we have the choice of whether or not we are going to purchase that software. That is our right, as consumers, to choose and Curious Labs wont fault us for choosing not too. But I know that they will ask why people wont and WILL work on ways so that those individuals will feel more comfortable to do so. They have to do that to survive, yes, but they also do it because they care. If Curious Labs wanted a bunch of brainless sheep, they wouldn't sponsor a website that allows opposing views or a place that allows concerns. Yes, the choice is to buy it, or not buy it. But don't attack people because they have concerns, Curious Labs doesn't. And be sure to be patient when waiting for an answer to those concerns. Just my thoughts, Jack

Shonner, Are you accusing the posters of this thread at being dishonest for voicing their displeasure at an iffy copy protection scheme? I certainly hope not. JDexter

At a (thankfully) former job I ordered two really useful under-$50 applications put out by small companies. One had a machine-specific challenge code, the other didn't. My boss was very pleased with both, but when I put in purchase requests for copies for my project team, he rejected them and said one copy was enough to install on all five computers. I argued that the investment was small (less than what my research time and these discussions cost him!). However, when he discovered the challenge code only worked on my computer he immediately signed the order for it - but not for the other. So the more trusting little company got screwed. Dongles are another matter! We had a horrible experience with a misplaced Max dongle that almost derailed a project. A Poser dongle might make me think twice before upgrading. There are privacy issues I care more about: - If a company goes into bankrupcy, customer info is an asset that is likely to be sold whether the company wants to or not, regardless of good-faith promises - don't give more info than you absolutely have to. - Don't use your mother's actual maiden name when asked, too easy to find out - make one up that you always use. - Check if your financial records can be accessed by telephone using your name and social security number; after numerous calls and letters we got systems changed for our mortgage and credit cards to a real password. - Don't use those darn electronic signature pads at stores, ask for a printed copy to sign (I know, they can scan it in; they're just irritating, so why make it easy?) - Most of all, never assume anything is private; I'm amazed at folks who don't know every keystroke at work can be monitored, erased files accessed, and little video cameras can be anywhere. - And never assume you are too small-time to attract notice; unknowingly your path may have crossed sometime with some big fish and wham - your dealings suddenly are in a very bright spotlight (just saw this happen to someone who really deserved it, but still scarey.) Enough paranoia for you?

Shonner, ..Installing software is a privilege. Not a right. Huh???!!! When I pay for that privilege you better believe I consider it a right. Can you imagine leasing a car if the salesperson said "Thanks for your money- maybe we'll let you drive it, maybe we won't"? (not that this is what CL is doing.) ...No respect for the hard-working people that made/own the software. Treat me with respect and you will have my respect. It is respect that is a privilege, not paid licenses. ...The real problem is most people here don't want to be honest because they are not honest people to begin with. In another thread I voiced my objections, decision to forego P5 and my sympathies towards CL's choice in this matter. Frankly, I resent the suggestion that I am a thief merely because my relatives are not sheep. To state an opinion is one thing. To assert sweeping generalities based on nothing but personal whimsy is quite another. - Jack

Anthony said: "You may install Poser 3 times on one machine, 3 machines, or any combination thereof. My God, what about the fourth time? Actually, we have a couple of customers who for one reason or another have had to exceed 3 installations, usually due to upgrades, viruses, etc. What happens? A flag pops up saying "You have exceeded the maximum number of installations". You call Customer Service, verify your registration information, and get your installation counter reset. The whole process takes 90 seconds. Easy? Simple." Well it may only take 90 seconds, but from the UK that is a big wedge of cash on one phone call...besides if I'm only licensed to install it just 3 times, then the cost you will be charging me for the license is over priced IMHO! Have you not realised the hassle that your international customers will have to go through, if you have not put up a worldwide network of Customer Support Agents within every country? If you are as worried about your customers, as much as you say you are, then that is the type of customer support I expect! Too much hassle in my opinion :o( Cheers --------------------------------------- A Life? Cool! Where can I download one of those from? ---------------------------------------

 

Website: The 3D Scene - Returning Soon!

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--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

I posted one solution way back in message #43. It requires no changes to be made. And it can be implemented at any time. I'm sure other people could come up with other workable solutions as well. The problem is CL MUST secure the software. At least for the initial release. Your assignment--(should you choose to acccept it)-- Is to find a way to get CL to eliminate it down the road after the you've done your part in helping the company succed. ScottA

There seems to be a kind of romance that goes on in this forum between the users and Curious Labs (and also DAZ). It's as if they're looked upon as our "good buddies" who are there to make our lives more fun. Anybody who speaks ill of them or questions their business practices gets shouted down. "Please don't upset our good buddies. They might get mad, take their ball and go home. Then we won't have any fun." Wake up people. All businesses are out to make money. Period. Curious Labs wants to make a profit and make itself wealthy. It's no different than Enron, Worldcomm, Nabisco or any other business, regardless of size. To do so, they have to cater to us, not the other way around. We have every right to complain, to be wary and to watch them like a hawk. In return, when they give us what we want, we reward them with many dollars of sales. They are NOT our friends, they are a service provider. It's our hard earned cash that they are after. If they don't want to provide for us, then it's their problem. We are the dog, they are the tail. Woof! jjsemp - aka "Rover"

"Actually, one of the next steps is downloading the software to whatever computer your at and paying a rental fee to use it." Another choice: Use open source software

Stupidity also evolves!

Shonner, once again, sweeping accusations. You need to watch that. Scott, I have no problem registering the program, although I think for some odd reason a company is not legally allowed to require your name and address when you register. (Hence when you activate an MS product, it says registration is optional) but I would like a registration method that is not linked to my hardware, since hardware is transient. THat said, I could live with this activation scheme if it was used for the initial install and you voluntarily register your software with the company. After that point, if you chose to divulge your name and personal info, then any time it is activated it goes by that information and unless it is grossly installed (ie, been warez out) then it would not matter. For those who chose not to share their personal information, then they could live with the hardware scheme that is currently involved. As I said with the Microsoft issue earlier, I register all my products, and the MS rep knew my name without me telling them, therefore it was obvious I was a legal user. At that point I should never have to call them to reinstall a product I have purchased. I feel the same way here. When I register the first time, the serial and my name are linked. And it should not matter how many times I upgrade or replace my HDD should I have to waste time going through the whole process again. IF it was being used excessively, then they would have the information they need to pursue matters in a legal court of law, to which they have the right to do. JDexter JDexter

After reading the above I have decided to cancel my order to poser 5. Yes I had it on back order. I don not like having to send in for new key every time I format my computer nor do I like that you can only run on one computer at a time. I have a person who helps me learn poser and other programs using same program on two different computers at same time. I will continue to use old poser 4 untill something better comes along. iloco

ïÏøçö

I don't think I will be upgrading now either... Here's why: I purchased Zbrush and they implemented a similar "security" scheme. I haven't even bothered to reinstall it on my computers after having to reformat all 3...it's just not worth the hassel to me... I am ill and need a computer in the bedroom for days when I can't get out of bed. I also have a laptop that I use outside in the summer and my main one in the office for good days... I just don't have the energy to be trying to keep the computers working properly and have to do these re-registration things when they screw up... Think I'll just continue with Poser 4...thanks anyway... Don't mean to sound cantankerous but I'm having one of my bad health days... Dawn

"Actually, one of the next steps is downloading the software to whatever computer your at and paying a rental fee to use it." - Hoo boy! In a pig's eye. Yes, thankfully there are some very good freeware and open-source applications to be had out there, in the face of such hooey. Netherworks - bleeding-heart Liberal, smoker, and consumer.

.

...They live in denial. They'll never admit their(sic) doing something wrong. Yes, using a cracked program even if you have a legitimate copy is probably illegal. I assume that by "wrong" you mean illegal otherwise you are once again stating opinion only. But illegal is not necessarily the same thing as unethical. Laws are theoretically enacted to protect us from unfair harm or loss. So tell me... if I use a cracked version of a program for which I own a legitimate license how has the publisher been harmed? What monies have they lost? In just what possible imaginable way is their livelihood or continued survival threatened? Any student of law would probably die of old age if trying to enumerate all the laws that have been subsequently overturned, modified or repealed. These laws are tested daily in our courts. Some survive- some do not. This is why the concept of precedence is so vital to our legal system. These days, merely to say something is illegal without explanation/justification is not really saying very much. - Jack

I resent being called a porographer because I wish to put frames together and use it to tell a story using motion ; something Poser was made to do. Shonner, you have said your piece. You will buy the program as is, are happy with it, suits your needs and think that everyone else should shut up and don't buy the program if they aren't happy. We have heard you. Unless you plan on buying all remaining copies of P5, could you stop insulting people who have different needs than you do.

A quick question about a single user running Poser on two machines at the same time. What is the CL view on this? If P5 animation renders take many hours to complete then it means that whilst the software is working I am not. Result:- a tendency not to use Poser to it's full capacity. Solutions:- 1) Buy two copies of Poser 5. Result: CL is very happy. My bank manager is not! 2) CL allows me to run Poser on two machines at the same time. Result: I am very happy. CL keeps a dedicated Poser user who will certainly upgrade again when the time comes. So what does CL have to say on this issue?

Sorry Anthony got news for you, if going by the Avatar Lab is any example, reformatting the hard drive does require re-activation, since that is exactly what happened, I reformatted my harddrive with Avatar Lab on it, and after reinstalling, the challenge code was new, and the attempt to re-register it, was greeted with the response this product is already registered, and cannot be registered again. Now I simply have had neither the time or patience to get into the rest of it, an email marathon to re-activate it. The end result, was that formatting left me with an unuseable Avatar Lab, and by appearances, much more significant steps involved to re-activate it. Not something in my opinion paying customers should be subjected to.

That is what I want to know isaac!

J Hoagland, yup you are legal, with most of the time, some funtionality ripped from the app. that's why the warez apps are not worth using. buy the app, download the keygen crack, you can always use the bought legal version, if you need to re-install, the keygen will give you what you need to use app. the cracked version would have sections the hackers deem useless ripped out.

Shonner, try to keep things constructive, nothing you have said up to this point has helped CL. If Steve, Anthony or any of the other good people at CL tried to argue their case like you have there would most certainly never be a poser 6.

OK! I'm glad to hear how this works. My hardwear changes constantly and I can't live my life at someone elses convenience. When a USB-dongle version becomes available I'll buy it and pay $100 more for it. Until then my wallet remains closed. I do not own WinXP for the same reasons.

That's an interesting legal question about keygen. You have bought the software, so you have a legal version. You install it in the numbers of machines allowed. You don't modify the software. So if you use keygens you don't do anything "legally" wrong ??????

Stupidity also evolves!

My question is why reactivation? Why not do something similar to what 3ds Max 4 and 5 have used. From what I can tell this has been included because CL doesn't trust its paying customers to use the product on one computer at a time. Or if they use it on more than one computer they want to know about it. CL - are you becoming Microsoft in your old age? WiNC

I know you are all upset, confused, frustrated and fighting about this and desperately want an answer. Really quick..It is a 3 day weekend and NONE of are working. Nosfiratu (anthony) and I will both probably be off the forums all weekend spending time with our families. Kupa is also away for the weekend, the poor man needs to spend some time with his family away from the office. Anthony posted that thread trying to do service to the community and clear something up...but it seems at this point it has gone above and beyond all of us and we obviously need to come in here and straighten some stuff out. PLEASE, as much as I can beg...let this issue sit until Tuesday when we are all back in the office and can get you clear answers. There is so much heresay and misinformation in this thread it is out of control and I am not the person to clear it up...but I cannot watch this get any further out of control. Please...we will get you answers...don't tear us apart for the next 3 days when we can't clear things up. Thank you... (I will NOT be checking this thread of these forums anymore until Tuesday morning...I desperately need family time myself...) Patience...a wonderful virtue...and since Poser 5 isn't even here yet...PLEASSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEE Have patience... tori

"Actually, one of the next steps is downloading the software to whatever computer your at and paying a rental fee to use it." - Hoo boy! In a pig's eye. If you think about it this may not be a bad idea if a suitable billing mechanism and price was established. Imagine that you download the program to your system once. If the program is updated your installation will be automatically, with your permission, patched. You would be charged for each session and it would be time limited, maybe 2-4 hours. Let's assume a per session charge of ten cents. If run four times a day, five days a week over a three year period this would cost you about the same as buying P5 at $329. This has several advantages for the user: 1. you can spread your financial investment over an extended period of time. 2. if you discover that the program is not really very useful to you, or your needs change, your monetary loss is minimal, if any. 3. if you need a program for just one or two projects it will not cost as much as an outright purchase 4. it is an inexpensive means to "test drive" a program without any limitations or time limit 5. you will always be running the current version- no need to upgrade For the publisher: 1. a continual cashflow 2. would be able to "sell" to people who can not afford a cash layout of several hundred but can afford $20 a month 3. generate a modest income from those who like to play with a program to see what it is all about but will never really otherwise use or buy it. 4. "sell" to people who only need it once in a while 5. possible piracy reduction. Who would steal just for pennies a day? There are probably many other advantages as well for both sides. Of course, we need a payment system where the transaction cost is not more than the fee charge. Perhaps one could buy "blocks of time". If there are sufficient transactions this is undoubtably possible. I could go for something like this and suspect that the legitimate user base would be much larger. This seems to make some sense so will probably never happen. - Jack

Oh look Questor changes hardwear as often as I do. My expirenceis that Hardwear is far from reliable enoph for these kinds of security sceems at this time.

Yes, Jack it might be worth deeper thought :) To me, it has that little annoying nickle-and-dime panging. Maybe it would be a good "option" if choices were given. As for breaking it up into a monthly fee - you could do that with a credit card already (but I know how nasty those little buggers are - mine are in pieces somewhere).

.

Jeezzzz....

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Since hardly anyone will bother to read this far into the thread, I won't go through a detailed deconstruction of the illogic that oozes from a certain percentage of the membership here on security and related issues every time they are raised. But a few things should be noted. [Although I should not have to note this, I will state at the outset that I have never even met a CL employee, let alone been one.] What I will point out is that CL is far, far, far more responsive to the opinions, desires and outright whims of its customer base than MS, or just about any software company you would like to name. The fact that Mr. Hernandez posts messages here like the head msg in this thread, undoubtedly knowing what would follow, is indisputable proof of this point. I have no illusion that Mr. Hernandez, or Mr. Cooper, or anyone else from CL does so out of pure altruism. But their near-masochistic willingness to air these issues in forums like this does say something about their business savvy and their business ethics. I think that CL does treat its customers well, and does inform them of CL's problems. Unfortunately, there is always going to be a vocal (but probably fringe) segment that will complain unless CL gives their product away for free, and has kupa install it personally. And suggesting that CL is like Enron or Worldcom is not only unfair, it is probably libel. I will also point out that CL's costs of doing business are our costs. This is basic economics. When you buy something at a store, you are indeed (as at least one person above figured out) paying extra to cover the cost of shoplifting. BTW, many stores have security cameras; are the people who are going to avoid P5 also avoiding stores which treat them like suspects in this way? The lock analogy: Yes, the dedicated warezer will probably crack P5, just as the pro thief can bypass the lock on your door. Yet I wonder how many of the folks who claim they won't license P5 have locks on their homes or cars...and use them. Maybe they tell realtors or landlords or car dealers that they will not buy or rent or lease a place or car that has gasp locks, but I doubt it. Finally, if you search the forum, I believe you'll find that network rendering is "on the horizon" for P5... Bravo to JDK, Virus, Chris and the others here who seem to have a keener grip on reality.

PS: Isn't everyone here paying a monthly fee for internet service?

The thought that a warez user will have an easier time installing Poser 5 than us legitimate users is true. A car thief doesn't have to pay for his car, honest car owners make monthly payments. Life isn't fair sometimes. EITHER BUY THE SOFTWARE OR DON'T!!!! Just shut up about it already! Holy Cow!!!!

I don't think I can even upgrade, don't want to attempt it. It states in a thread somewhere here at Renderosity, that Poser 5 is not supported for Windows NT. I use Windows NT, mainly because it does not crash continually like other windows products. Have used it for years and don't want to change operating systems and have to install tons of software all over again. Do I want to spend $200 to upgrade and then find out that the product will not work at all on my computer and then go through some kind of hassle with a company like this.. I doubt it.. I can't afford a new operating system on top of the upgrade. I would have to build another computer just for Poser 5.. Doubt this will happen in the near future.

As someone said earlier, "locks were made to keep honest people honest." Let's quit whining and hope CL decides to ship P5 early, like next week, so we can get it soon. BTW, I guarantee 98% of the whiners will have Poser 5, eventually. God bless, Ben

"Actually, one of the next steps is downloading the software to whatever computer your at and paying a rental fee to use it." (and) "This has several advantages for the user:" (etc...) You forgot one other "advantages" to that online software scheme there, and it's one that's already being used to the hilt. Pop-up and/or windowed ADVERTISING all over the applications that you're trying to get WORK done with! Don't try to tell me that it won't be like that. You know damn good and well that it will. Golly. Can hardly wait for that.

...You forgot one other "advantages" to that online software scheme there, and it's one that's already being used to the hilt. Pop-up and/or windowed ADVERTISING all over the applications that you're trying to get WORK done with! I know this happens with "free" software. But I'm talking about "rental" software. Are you saying that something similar to the scheme I blue-skyed already exists? I'd love to take a look at it. - Jack

To those of you who say this scheme will stop "casual" piracy, you are right. It will probably stop some. But it's gotten much easier lately for the "casual" computer user to acquire warezed software than it used to be. And it keeps getting easier. And not all warez is ripped. Any deterance by this might well be offset by the people who would have bought it, but will now seek alternative methods to get it. To those who say it's no big deal: okay, so maybe it isn't. But look at it this way...to quote a CL employee, "Curious has utilized a third party that has a staff of scientists that stay on top of these issues and have tools that have a long running history of doing their job." I wonder how much that cost? I wonder if the money would have been better spent on network rendering? Or multi-processor support? Or better magnets? Or improved animation tools? The list could go on an on. What would you rather have? One of these features/improvements? Or a whiz-bang copy protection scheme (that won't work)?

Hopefully, on Tuesday CL will have a good answer for that, too. After all, that't what people will be paying for, along with Poser 5.

Hey glassylady - just for your information, Microsoft has already announced that it will not continue to support NT. I'm not sure if this support will end this year or not - but it will end. So... you'll be able to run your applications you've got for now, but soon you'll have to upgrade to something because new programs that you may want won't be running on NT. Like many (if not most) programs now won't run on Windows 3.1. Good luck.

...I wonder how much that cost? [copy protection] Actually, I think that CL's production costs or methods are none of our business. All I'm interested in is how my use of P5 will be affected by this protection scheme. I'm not even really complaining about it. I'm just stating what it will take for me to buy P5. I would think that is something a publisher would like to know. - Jack

To those people who say this is just whining - it isn't. This is a issue which needs to be resolved... and to those that say 98% of us whiners will buy Poser 5 anyway. I can swear right now that if Poser 5 uses this security messure I will not be buying Poser 5... and the money I'm saving will go towards another software product that is a lot more conciderate towards its users. (Yes they may have been in the past - however if this type of protection is introduced, they won't be in the future.) WiNC

Whew! Gee, I take off one day and traipse downtown to Renderosity-Con (where I met Valendar handing out leaflets) and look what happens (grin). Took me nearly an hour to read and digest. The business people at CL, IMHO, have analyzed the situation and obviously made a decision that assumes/predicts the number of people who will not buy P5 due to the security messures will be LESS than the number of copies warez'ed (i.e., lost sales) without the scheme. I think it's that simple. Pure business. It's their right and duty as they struggle for a profitable company. Me? I don't like it. Don't like anything like that. But, like a lot of other things in life I put up with, I'll probably put up with that. I'll probably buy P5 (and still be just as unable to "make" art as I am now...hehe). I don't seem to have to format my HDs as much as a lot of other people so I don't think I'll have much of a problem. I don't have a desktop AND a laptop, but I will install a copy @ work and @ home (where I follow the intent of the licensing agreement, though not strictly). I certainly won't be using it at the same time (and NO one @ work will be able to use it while I am at home...they are even dumber than I am about that kind of stuff). If I DO run into problems and it somehow gets de-activated and turns into a re-curring nightmare, I'll step a bit outside of the law and find a "keyless" copy somewhere and install it instead. Like someone stated above, while technically against the law, CL is not out any money since I purchased a legal copy...and I believe that is their main concern. I certainly wouldn't worry about them "coming after" me for it. And I would NEVER give any software away to anyone. As to the annimation rendering times and running on 2 machines at the same time? I think CL needs to address that. I wonder if people who need that ability would consider it worth ponying up an extra $50 (give or take) for some sort of additional "simultaneous rendering" license. Or if CL can produce a free "rendering" utility that does only that. And, though not really an imminent worry, the remarks about any company going out of business is of some concern. It'd be nice if CL had a little utility to send every legal owner to "turn off" the security measures in the event they DO go under. As to "renting" software in the future? I believe that is the way MS (who drags the rest of the software people around by their digital nose) is heading. I'd hate to see it. I'd hate to wait for the overhead of paying and logging my time and fetching latest fixes and such over a dial-up connection each time I used a product of that type. It also leaves the people who have PCs in a standalone mode without a solution. If the major software companys DO resort to that method, I think they will lose out in the long run. I think it also sets the table for an upstart smaller company to grab some customers who want to pay once and use the software as much as they like. But, hey, what do I know? (smile) But I can tell you where I'll be sitting (or standing) tomorrow @ 10 am...in the P5 show and tell @ Renderosity-con. So, off to bed for me. PS: I think I saw Syyd there, too. Gotta go make sure!

I think if a single copy of Poser is installed on multiple computers and used by several people then CL deserves adddtional money via multiple licensing. But if someone installs it and uses it simultaneously on several computers for their use only I see no reason to pay extra. If I want to do a character setup on one box while doing a render on another why should I pay extra? After all, I bought Poser so I could use it, not just to keep my computers happy. So what if I, not someone else, use it on two computers at the same time? I think there would be a storm of objection if I suggested that someone who uses Poser 10 hours a week should pay more than someone who uses it only five hours a week. How is posing on one computer while rendering on another really any different? Tie the license to the user, not the computer. - Jack

I think this installation system sucks. It would be great if it would prevent piracy of Poser 5, but let's face it, this will end up as just another hassle for the legitmate user. It will be cracked readily by hackers, leaving us real users as the only ones who are put out. Maya 3.5 has a similar system, at that's exactly what happened. Reports of it being cracked hit newsgroups only days after its release. Maya's installer generates some kind of a Challege Code based on the MAC address of your computer's ethernet card. The same week Maya was released, a fake 'Maya License Generator" exe was already in circulation. Probably an inside job, or possibly a really clever hacker. Either way, it proves the point. Even software with USB dongles have been cracked. hackers find a way to replicate the dongle response with software, or circumvent the calls to the dongle altogether by editing the software at the assembly code level. it's been done for a decade, and no anti-piracy measures have ever been 100% successful (or even close). And the tip about installing on a P5 different hard drive? Anthony, you've probably already said too much. I'm guessing there's some geek somewhere already trying to figure out exactly what characteristic of the hard drive is being used as the seed to generate the challenge code... -Adam

I for one don't condone warez software, but I also don't condone strict limitations about regristation of software.
Once I plop down my hard earned bucks for it, it's my choice how I use it and install it, provided I don't infringe on copyright laws.

Until I can load P5 without CL strong arming me into contacting them to register it, no dice.
Also, rumor has it that P5 has GAIN hooks and other spyware integrated into it.
And you expect me to pay for that?

Get real CL...

I know a 16 year old kid who has hacked copies of almost every popular graphics program, including PPP, 3d Studio, Lightwave, PS, you name it. Obviously, the security measures taken by those companies were useless. I look at software registration and security codes like those teeny little brass locks on a childs piggy bank. Sure, it keeps it closed, but with a flick of your wrist you can tear it right off. It only keeps an honest man honest. I think it odd that CL wants so much info from me and yet it does not trust me to be that honest man. From personal experience with CL over registration numbers - Mr. Hernandez WILL have CL's lawyers on you before he even bothers to see if there is an error. I promise you if they get they're information screwed up concerning your serial number, as they did with me, you will be getting email from some boob who calls himself the "Pirate Killer". Thankfully there are cooler, more insightful heads at CL than Mr. Hernandez, and all was made well after I proved to them I was indeed a registered owner of Poser. All I can see is that if you make things more difficult for the people who desire to do the right thing, you take a great risk in losing their good faith. If you are going to be in the business of writing softeware, then, like Ironbear said, you have to accept as a consequence of the business that you are going to be pirated. It's truly sad that people feel they need to steal everything they can get their hands on, but that's the world.

God, did that really happen? With a CL employee? This "Pirate Killer" guy sounds like a zealous warez-nazi to me. Any customer service person harassing and accusing a legitimate customer in that manner should be fired on the spot. It should be obvious to anyone (company and customer) that that kind of response is intolerable. I'm surprised this guy didn't ask you to settle the matter with him personally, in cash. That's how Napoleonic law usually plays out in practice, right? -Adam

My 2 cents on this........ I think for the price I paid for P5 (got it dirt cheap! $129.00 for upgrade.) I don't care if I have to wait for someone from CL to show up and install it! They gave us a break on pricing, so I don't see a problem with the security. Don't throw any rotten tomatoes at me! That is just my opinion :)

Poser 9 SR3  and 8 sr3
=================
Processor Type:  AMD Phenom II 830 Quad-Core
2.80GHz, 4000MHz System Bus, 2MB L2 Cache + 6MB Shared L3 Cache
Hard Drive Size:  1TB
Processor - Clock Speed:  2.8 GHz
Operating System:  Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
Graphics Type:  ATI Radeon HD 4200
•ATI Radeon HD 4200 integrated graphics 
System Ram:  8GB 

While I don't condone CL's newest plan to thwart piracy, because as others have said in this thread, it probably won't work and will be more of a pain in the butt for the real users than the pirates, I doubt CL cares at this point what this community or anyone else thinks of their new scheme.

Many have said, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Okay, we belong to a community that has a great forum for Poser. How many people are going to buy this product in a store, or on a website because they saw a render from it somewhere without benefit of knowing the license? It's not exactly going to say on the box the provisions involved in registering it. Nor will there be a banner that says "NOW WITH ACTIVATION REQUIRED SOFTWARE PROTECTION TO PROTECT US FROM PIRATES!" It isn't going to happen and if it does, you got to know it will be in the finest print available.

Once they get to the point of finding this out, they've already opened the box and thus cannot take it back to the store they got it from. Will CL offer refunds for people that are unhappy with the scheme? I somehow doubt it. I also know that once you try to install it, very few actually quit at the EULA if they read it at all. So that theory of don't buy it if you don't like it doesn't really apply.

Curious Labs knows their market very well. I doubt they invested this money lightly. They know that really no matter what they do under the guise of "Otherwise we'll go out of business" will be accepted, maybe with grumbles, but accepted by those who make up their market. Just as many have said above that they still plan to buy Poser 5, despite this, and that is enough to make it chrystal clear for CL that their market is secure, despite the bad PR. They also know that those that don't buy it now, upon seeing the great renders, will probably give in eventually. After all, did you see Pentium 3 send Intel into bankruptcy because of the serial numbers? Nope, in the end, no one really cared as long as it was compatible enough to run what they wanted. Poser holds a place that few software companies reach. It has found a niche market that it does better than any other, and has created a community that is just short of addiction to support it. Not to give them ideas, but I'd be willing to bet that if they charged a monthly fee to use Poser 5, people would still use it. It has become the user's favorite tool, their artwork, their passion and CL knows that very well...

The whole software licensing deal and how it takes rights away from consumers, while giving more rights to the companies is beyond this thread, but I guess my point is, this is not surprising. It's also not surprising that people will accept it without question. It's human nature and CL can cash in on that...

My 2c. Will I buy Poser 5? Probably. Because when all is said and done, I want to use the new features and like most, I'd probably just wind up accepting it anyway not to be left behind...

PS: The above is not a statement against those that are speaking out. I think people should speak out and spread the word as loud as they can so that people can make informed decisions about the software they buy and not just raked in without knowing and if it changes CL's mind, then even better! After reading the post above about the "Pirate Killer", I'm not so sure I want to buy Poser 5. Don't need the hassle from some over-zealous person and I know really well how small companies can mess up accounting in these situations. What protections do we have from CL on how these numbers are to be stored and implemented in the future so that when we call to get our "new" codes that we can get them without being accused of everything under the sun??

"Liberals always think the that world owes them for some reason. It's always grab and take with them." FYI shonner, I am a card carrying liberal and proud of it. I do not however share some folks indignation at CL's protection scheme. Your attempt to categorize people is as inaccurate as it is offensive. I may not agree with what many are saying but condeming anyone who doesn't agree with the system is a tired tactic that we are seeing way too much of these days. Next, you'll be calling people terrorists. To those folks whose HDs are crashing on a daily basis, seriously and no disparagement intended, your first priority should be getting you system sorted out, not Poser 5's copy protection. In 20 years, I haven't had to do a crash recovery reformat as many times as some people say they have done in a week and I don't think that's just random good luck. You've got some serious hardware issues.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

"And suggesting that CL is like Enron or Worldcom is not only unfair, it is probably libel." Kbade, get a grip. I'm the one who suggested it and I'll say it again. CL is a BUSINESS, just like Enron, Worldcomm and Nabisco (you left that one out from my original quote) -- they are in it to make a buck. PERIOD! Nothing wrong with that. But we still get to vote with our dollars. And if we don't like the way they conduct business, then we don't have to buy the product. They are not our buddies. Chatting us up in the forums is good BUSINESS. I for one, WILL buy P5. I don't really give a hoot about the protection scheme. I had no problem with Microsoft doing it for XP (which I use happily and willingly). What I WON'T do is behave as if Curious Labs and Daz are my "best friends" and that everything they do is okay. Sometimes in their quest for PROFIT, they'll overstep their boundaries JUST LIKE ENRON, WORLDCOMM AND OTHERS (there, I said it again!) and then they have to be put in their place by US the users. I salute everybody who has complained in this thread. It's our right as buyers to do so. And I DARE anybody to sue me for speaking out! Hah! -(name withheld to avoid lawsuit ;-)

You're paying for a "license to use" someone's software. You never own the software Bull. I'm buying a product, pure and simple. You can spout EULA all you want, but the fact remains that I have bought a product. How I use that product, what I do with it when I finish with it, how secure I choose to make it, should be completely up to me. This whole "license" thing is absurd: what's CL gonna do, fly to Calgary and take it away from me? I kinda doubt it. So let's kindly dismiss that little piece of smoke-and-mirrors, shall we? I dont really care what the EULA says: I have purchased a product, not a lease.

What I will point out is that CL is far, far, far more responsive to the opinions, desires and outright whims of its customer base than MS At the risk of sounding cynical, of course they are. They have to be. They have a much smaller market that is far more tightly networked. They don't have the luxury of being as cavalier as MS or Adobe.

"These were the products my company used on a regular basis. We had it installed on 26-30 machines and had each and every copy liscensed. Then the problem with the Activation Code (CL's Challenge code it sounds a lot like) started."

It sounds to me like you should have looked into the corporate, site licensed versions of those software programs. Microsoft makes versions of all their programs that do not require WPA to install. This is SPECIFICALLY so that larger customers don't have support problems.

"Rep. makes comment about Activation scheme and how many times you have installed."

Let me guess, you used the same number for each isntallation? Of course the system had a problem, ... a legitimate problem. You're software was installed on more than 25 machines.. and if you used the same AC for them all how was it supposed to know you weren't pirating it?

If you had a license for each system then you either had

1. a corporate AC that would allow a large number of installs
2. a separate AC for each system... that you should have used.

No offense, but it sure isn't Microsoft's fault.

"SO those who say this is not a big deal, you are wrong, it is a big deal because it is just not this one software, it is the acceptance of a flawed security system that instead of protecting the software makes users abandone software they have paid for."

You know, doom was predicted when XP shipped with WPA. The tales of woe were waiting to be told - the countless throng were up in arms about what a nightmare it would be.... and guess what? It isn't. Not even close. All told I have upgraded or installed probably 70 XP machines since it shipped and not one... NOT ONE has had an activation problem, either online of on the phone. I have upgraded RAM and motherboards, I have formatted and re-installed hard drives and all the rest of it, and have never had WPA get in the way of any of it.

In fact, there is only ONE tangible reality brought to the world with WPA (Windows product activation) - the casual copying of Microsoft XP is radically reduced.

Of the home users I know I would say that previous to XP's release maybe 10 our of 40 or so actually purchased Windows98. The reason was simple.... they could simply burn a copy from a friends CD-ROM and use the same activation serial key.

They can't do that anymore. WPA won't let it happen. So the purchased XP Home. Oh, they scammed big-time. I know one guy who bought three identical computers just so WPA wouldn't notice he had 3. I know most of them purchased OEM versions of XP Home for abut 65$ - grey market because it "came with" a $5 mouse they then paid $65 for and got a "free oem" Windows XP.

Overall, by and large some 35 out of 40 have purchased XP home. And some of them have purchased (gasp!) a copy for each computer they run it on! You know, like the license says you should?

Why don't they just pirate it from the web? Because most casual copiers (rightly) don't want cracked software on their machine. They want a "clean" copy from a original CD-ROM from someone they know or someone they trust on the web. Not some pirate version with god knows what in it.

And this will be true of Poser as well.

• Will it be cracked? Of course.
• Will "serious" pirates get a copy? Yup.

But that isn't the issue... the important points are...

• Handled correctly, product activation does not cause any problems for any significant percentage of end users
• Product activation absolutely does cut down on casual piracy.
• It absolutely does drive up sales numbers.
• It absolutely does help enforce licenses on concurrent use.

So you can hate it or not. Boycott it if you want to. But it is here, and it will stay here... in poser and/or other software. Because it works.

 

Well...you guys have forever changed my definition of "a few words"....:) Beav

Confirmation via webcam alright? Now where should I get this tatoo? :D Challenge code is nothing, the real tragedy is I'm gonna have to wait a month before it will get here :{ April, card carrying soon to be tatooed P5 groupie :D

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

soulhuntre Some of your information is totally incorrect - certain aspects of upgrades of hardware and even certain reinstalls of WindowsXP will cause the reactivation system of windows to become active again. I know - I do a LOT of reinstalling of windows XP not only on my own computer, but also for customers who have bought the OS themselves. Also if you do not have access to CALL microsoft for the activation you have to email them, or mail them for the activation information. Unlike most countries - SOME countries do not have 0800 numbers for reactivation, and SOME PEOPLE (surprise surprise) DO NOT HAVE INTERNET!!! Now in regards to the CL activation - if it is anything like their previous attempts that I have seen, any upgrade of any major componant (CPU, Harddrive, or just a reinstall) could cause the user to have to reactivate their product with a new activation code. Secondly you say that WindowsXP hasn't suffered - I beg to differ. I don't know what site you got your information from - but Microsoft's present Activation code programming scheme is causing issues with Windows XP sales - especially in Corp and small Businesses (but also in a lot of cases of home users). Watch TechTV, look over many of the news websites and look at polls which state that WindowsXP has lost at least 10% of its market share and I know of places were customers refuse to have their system sold to them with WindowsXP (rather changing for WindowsME or WIndows2K or now Linux) Why? Because a lot of these people don't want a security system in which forces them to reactivate their system everytime they want to do something that could 'risk' causing the present activation code to become invalid. I agree with your arguement about that activation code security messures work... Yes with correct implementation of activation code the software can be protected at least a little better than just a general serial number like what Poser 4 has now. However, taking that unique number from a part of the computer, which could alter at any time, or could change with each reinstall of hardware/OS - is STUPID. Again - though people who do not have Internet, or live outside of US are going to suffer... WiNC

"It has found a niche market that it does better than any other, and has created a community that is just short of addiction to support it." Well all said and done - no they don't own a niche market. Unlike Microsoft, who have little compitation to their OS (there is of course Linux but unlike Microsoft - it doesn't use Windows software very well), there are a far number of business's out there doing bone amination and morph type programs for their full products - and can be argued that they are far better than Poser 5 can do. For the more expensive - Lightwave, 3dMax Character Studio, Maya - just to name a few. Then you can look at the cheaper programs, and addons to programs. It is a matter of money - for some people who are having to spend the big bucks anyway - the difference between Poser, and Lightwave isn't as much as first thought - or even looking at some of the cheaper 3d Products. The question is - can CL afford to loss 8-10% of its market share over this? Because so far I have seen enough people say they won't get it - and spend their money on other things (me included). Then again - a lot of people might still buy it anyway... OR! What will probably happen is a lot more people who would have been honest will get the warez version... which pushs more sales away from CL, and will push them into bankruptcy... These are all things CL need to think about - they have to take the good with the bad, and the good is they protect their software - the possible bad is they loss business. Again warez people will crack it - it is a fact of life. Hell if they can crack WindowsXP and even the new SP1 which isn't even out yet - then honestly - why make us honest people suffer... ---- because - they don't turst us honest people... at least that is the way it is making me feel right now... WiNC

Renderosity, Renderosity, how do your poser threads grow? Why... exponentially, my dear 'Bear. snicker ScottA: "You guys just don't know what's really going on at CL. Everything is just hearsay.And that seems to generate a lot of avoidable problems. " So clear up the missapprehensions and speculations Scott, and tell us what's going on on the inside, dude. ;] Then we won't waste time on useless arguments... [and if you buy that one, I got some beachfront property ah'll sell yas REAL cheap. ;)] "If you guys were a bit closer with the company. You'd have a better understanding of the problems they have to deal with. And why they do what they do." Possibly correct. Might... but why should it matter? A customer pays money to buy a product - the companies problems or having sympathy for them is totally irrelevant. The customer pays for a product or service - their concern is "does it work? And does it give good value for the dollar? And what does it require to work?" Last I checked, CurousLabs, MicroSoft, Adobe, Discreet etc weren't paying their customers to really give a rats about the companies problems - it's only relevant insofar as in making a purchase decision based on wether the company can deliver and support the product. Spike: "Lets look at the facts shall we: If CL did not put in a good protection, they would have to bring the cost up to offset the warez and fraud. This is simply a part of bussness. Take your pick. " You're making the presumption, Spike, that warez is an indication of dollars lost to people that would otherwise buy it. It's not... it's an accountants worldview of "Oh.. x # of copies out = y # of dollars we lost!". You don't ever lose dollars that a pirate wouldn't spend on you... it's a fallacious argument. It's also fallacious that the consumer should pay for the actions of pirates in either costs or inconvenience. Does "presumed innocent til proven guilty" ring any bells? This is "presumed guilty just because we can't seperate out the innocent"... Phantast: "Incidentally, isn't there a slight irony in the fact that CL wish us to trust them with our personal data, but they clearly don't trust us with their software? " Heh heh. Yup. Ya noticed that, didya? ;] JCleaver: "CL could have used much worse copy protection, be glad they didn't! " Sorry, jcleaver... I don't buy that. Giving up a little bit of freedom is like being a "little bit pregnant", to carrry the ananlogy to an etreme. And companies bank on just that mentality: "oh well.. at least they didn't... ". Untill it's next time and they do.... VirtualSite: As long as you won't blast me for still owning Photoshop 2 and WordPerfect/QuattroPro for DOS... ;] I hear what you're saying, and I think you're correct. We're buying a product, not leasing it. The concept that we're only leasing software is a legal fiction that became embedded at some point in the late 80's... I'd have to check dates. It wasn't a common assumption prior to that. Shonner: I recognise that quote, and I'm a conservative libertarian, not a liberal. Grab a dictonary. ;] When I pay money for something, using it's not a "privelege", it's a right I paid for with my dollars. The concept that something is a privelege and we should be happy to eat crap for it is a "liberal" concept. By the way, just from curiousity, what major software company are you a shill for? ;] Megalodon: Ah... never mind. I just gave you more attention than you rate by typing your name... ;] Multiple sources: "Locks are only there to keep honest people honest." Honest people don't need locks. If they do, they're not honest by defintion. And I've lived in towns wher you could go shopping, get more stuff than you could carry, stop and set the bags down in the back of the pickup truck, and come back two hours later and all your stuff would be untouched - not isolated instances: that was the norm for those places. Honest people are honest because that's the way they like being. Potential thieves need locks. Jack: Don't bite yer tongue, it's painful and it's to no real avail. ;] Kbade: "Since hardly anyone will bother to read this far into the thread, I won't go through a detailed deconstruction of the illogic that oozes from a certain percentage of the membership here on security and related issues every time they are raised. " Don't kid yourself. I read ALL the freaking way through the thread to your post and past that. Some of us read everything and weigh the input. "CL is far, far, far more responsive to the opinions" No... someone is "responsive" when they listen to the feedback and then modify accordingly if it's overwhelmingly negative, as the bulk of this is whenever this question arises. If not, it's not responsive, it's a "like it or not" announcement. Shadowwind: "They know that really no matter what they do under the guise of "Otherwise we'll go out of business" will be accepted, maybe with grumbles, but accepted by those who make up their market." That's probably the gamble, and if it's true... that's a damned shame. As far as any copyright protection scheme "stopping" warez partially: bull. One cracked copy on p2p = indefinate cracked copies. Once it's cracked once, the protection scme is useless. That's how software protection is different from the "car alarm" analogy: the car alarm stops every theif except the one that breaks in, and when/if you recover the car, it also stops the next one who can't figure out how to bypass it. On code, once it's bypassed, it's gone - like exposing photographic film. That's also the flaw in the "stops Junior next door" argument: once the pro cracks it, Junior doesn't have to know how to code, he/she can borrow pop's internet connection and download the one cracked by someone else. Finally... again: Warez is a cost of doing business for software manufacturers. Going after the roots of the problem "Why people steal and how do we make it prohibitive in penalties and enforcement", companies take the route of passing the aggravation to the purchaser because a) it's easier and less expensive to THEM, and b) they generally figure the purchasers will grumble and accept it as ShadowWind suggested. It's a very simple equation: It's more cost effective to put in a sop that placates stockholders and inconveniences purchasers than it is to go after p2p users and software pirates. Doing the former, they make money off of people who grumble but still buy, doing the latter it's just money spent, no shortterm reccompense.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

What ever happened to the old saying, customers are always right when serving them from a business point of view. I had my own business for 35 yrs and that is the motto I tryed to abide by when serving the customers who bought my products. It worked for me. I know a lot of you will not agree but it is the customer who pays the bills to keep software vendors in business. I removed XP from two new computers and installed 98 SE because of all the hazzle with activation and all the junk that isn't needed in XP to run an operating system. I cancelled my back order for poser 5 because of the same reason's I am reading in this thread. I am only one of a million but if we all stick together and let the vendors know we are not going to buy the product then who looses the most. I will be glad to pay extra to have a copy of poser 5 that is hazzle free and is like the older versions which can be used without actavation when you replace hardware or reinstall a new system on new hard drive.

ïÏøçö

IB-- I think I've already said too much. ;-) You either care about the company. Or you don't. ScottA

I'm going to hold my fire and wait to hear from Steve on Tuesday. Maybe we can all go and bomb the crap out of some Iraqui children or kill some poor people and call 'em terrorists until then. Just thinking about it seems to work. The bloodlust is satisfied. Get a grip guys. You've asked for an explanation of this policy, you've been told you would get one. Wait until you get both sides of the story before announcing your earth shaking decisions. Till then go get layed. It's a weekend. Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Irrelevant. Answer me this, Scott: what does it matter if I "care" about the company, or any company, or not in business concerns? I don't have to care about a company to decide wether or not to spend my money with them. All that matters is wether the product does what I need it to do, wether it works as it's supposed to, and wether their business practices are designed to make it easier or less easy to do business with them of their products. If the answer to those questions is yes, they can make a sale. And repeated sales... If the answer to those is "no", then I may love the owner of the company like a brother, but that doesn't mean I'll spend money there. I don't particularly like or "care" about Microsoft, but Windows 2000 Pro WORKS, and I install it on systems I build for clients. Wether I like or "care" about MS or Bill G is irrelevant to wether the product suits the need of the client. I don't even know any one at Autodesk or Adobe enough to have an opinion on wether I care about the company, but if an architectrual or graphics client is looking for an architectural prog, or a image handling prog, I'll direct them to Studio VIZ or Photoshop if that prog will meet their needs. "Caring" about Adobe or Autodesk is a non existant factor. Same on computers... I'm friends with the sales manager at Tri-star and care about him as a friend, but if an out of state's client's needs are better met by Hypersonic, that's where I'll direct them for a system. Simple... a computer client is spending upwards of 5 grand on a workstation, what they need is paramount, and making sure they buy a system that meets those needs is what they pay me for. Selling them on a system that might not suit those needs because I "care" about the company that makes the other rig would be foolish and unethical of me. I'd go out of business in short order. Caring about Tri-star and my friend there means that I'll let them know why on occassion I'll reccomend a client elsewhere so they can make product changes to better suit my clients needs - not blindly overlooking a feature or lack of that might make it more suitable. I'm not going to let copyright protection schemes be my only criteria for wether a product will suit my needs - it won't ever be, there are too many other criteria - but do NOT expect me to buy into the fallacies and myths that people propogate about warez concerns, protection schemes, and program protection. They don't work, they will get cracked, as soon as it's cracked it becomes useless. Fact. People who believe there's any such thing as an uncrackable hardware or software lock are living in NeverNever Land. People who believe that any "protection scheme" is going to stop software piracy are living in the same place. People who believe that software locks are doing anything except making a company feel like it's doing something useful other than wasting money and aggravating customers are living in NeverNever Land. The biggest NeverNever Land is the accountants delusion that pirates will spend money on software, and that copies lost to warez will translate into dollars in a companies pocket - ain't a gonna happen, thieves steal, that's why they're theives. Money lost to the warez community is money that wouldn't have landed in a companies pocket to begin with. Counting it is counting unhatched chickens. Note, Scott: I have NOT said, ever, period: "Don't buy Poser 5". Or that I wouldn't buy it, or that someone else shouldn't. What I am saying is that I don't believe the rhetoric, and for people to make the decision on how to spend their money on very simple criteria: Will this do what I need it to? And can I personally live with the authorization? If the answer is "yes", buy away. Just don't make the choices based on warm fuzzies, and don't confuse bullshit about program protection with reality. Program protection is a sop to make programmers feel like they're doing something useful, and stockholders feel like the company is protecting their investments - it's bidness, as we say in Texas - pure and simple. It's not based on reality: I've spent way, way too much freaking time around software developement, computer security, programming, and anti-piracy endeavors - some of them you may recall while I worked for THIS company - to believe in warm fuzzy myths. You want to make an impression on me, prove my beleif that those are myths wrong with facts. "Care" and business have nothing to do with each other.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

"Jack: Don't bite yer tongue, it's painful and it's to no real avail. ;]" Too true, too true... however it's not much different than trying to add or interject a voice of reason to a starey eyed mob. After our few hours of conversation about this, you already know what my opinion and concerns are about it. The Fact is this: Despite all of the BS being posted in this thread, nothing is going to change. The "fans" of Curious Labs will purchase Poser 5 and be the first on their block to own it. Whereas, the "conservative" will wait to purchase the product till they are satisfied that it is hard earned money worth spending. As well as, the "warez kiddies" will wait for the patch/crack and others will just wont purchase it, for whatever reason, be it the need to serious upgrade their processors and memory or hard drive space. Many are going to find or have reasons of why they are... or aren't going to buy Poser 5. Right now I am respecting the wishes and desires of Steve Cooper and Diane Griffith and refraining from saying too much about Poser 5, which certainly has it's good points and bad points. I will respect their wishes and wait till Poser 5 is released before posting my views. The only thing I will say, is I will NEVER be a beta tester for Curious Labs (or likely any software company) again, nor would I ever expect to be asked to be one. Not that anyone is going to give a two bit sh*t about my opinion(s) or even listen. People will buy it or wont. They will praise it or condemn it. Laugh or cry. Cling and clatter it doesn't really matter. You win some and you lose some I am sure Curious Labs like all companies knows and understands this. They'll come and reply to this thread and five more will take it's place... with or without Poser, the sun will still rise and fall, the Earth will still turn... it doesn't really matter. Jack

What you are really saying IB is that you want it YOUR way. Period! As a customer you have the right to feel that way. But if the company suffered financial losses just so you could have it "your way". I'm sure you would still sleep fine knowing it didn't cost you anything. I'm sure the losses they've had so far mean nothing to you. Heck.....It didn't cost you anything. Did it? Afterall...you got your way. So who cares about anyone else. Ahh well...that's business. Right? It's too bad you never had a personal interest in a company. There are actually business people working out there that are actually.....get this......friends with their customers. Can you believe it! It's crazy I tell ya! ;-) ScottA

At the risk of showing my intellectual capabilities as being less than those of a certain internet provider. I agree with Ironbear. Wow, that was really worth wasting the bandwidth for wasn't it? Oh well, it's a handy place to put a bookmark as well.

Scott. Do you care on a personal level about ALL the companies you deal with? Your clothes, your food, your household goods, your car? Really? And you expect people to believe that? LOL Sheesh, CL have been deified quite enough on this website without turning them into closet huggable buddies. They're a company out to make money that's all they are. That they take the time to visit these forums and spend time chatting with everyone is commendible and admirable but no more than good business. Make yourselves known to the customers and the customers will like you more. Jeez, it's PR, not a fuzzy grab your butt love munch.

"What you are really saying IB is that you want it YOUR way. Period! " Bullshit. If you're reading that, then you're not reading what I typed, bud. That's about what I expected though... I have a personal interest in a company. Two of them, actually. And I'm friends with my clients. Still irrelevant: they pay me to make good decisions for them, if I don't they'll not only stop paying me, we won't be friends for long. In this case though - you are flat wrong: based on the concerns in this and other threads, it's the company in question putting "getting their way" over the concerns f the customers I'm reading here. And they are doing so for logic that's based on fallacy: the fallacy that any authorization scheme will prevent piracy or do anything except inconvenience the customer. My way? I don't honestly care. I'll make the decisons on wether to reccomend software or hardware to my clients based purely on wether it will do the job they want it to do when I consult on setting up a graphics studio. If for what they need to do, Poser 5 is the best tool, I'll reccomend that they buy it. If it's not, I'll reccomend something that will do the job they need. THAT's being a businessman, and THAT is serving my customers needs - not basing reccomendations on "likes" and "dislikes". When they ask me about a product, they want to hear why it will or won't, not like or dislike or "because I like the guy who makes it". Now, care to tackle my other challenge, proving that mine and other peoples assertions on wether protection schemes actually work are incorrect? Or are you capable? Feel free. Take your best shot... But do your research carefully - I've been around software, computers and the 'net a long time, and I can dig up links and research to back my assertions. So have a few of the people I recognise in this thread that have extremely similar backgrounds to me... Assuming I don't get bored, yawn and wander off, natch. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Scott, As a consumer what is wrong with wanting to "have it your way"? It seems to work other wise Burger King wouldn't use it as their trademark. Nor is there anything wrong with having an objection to an aspect of something that YOU BUY. chuckles Friends with customers... Steve and I are friends (or I'd like to think so, probably not anymore), but when it comes to the relationship BUSINESS COMES FIRST. Poser sales is what puts food on his and other families table over at Curious Labs. Warm fuzzies up the ass ain't going to fill the belly none. So, keeping that in mind and living in the real world in which we do, one would reason that if my company needs to make money to feed my family, I need to make sure that my company is going to make the best product out there so that it will MAKE LOTS of money and keep food on that table (and maybe buy me that Humvee I've always wanted). Yeah, I may have an established cult of followers to my product, but to get the good stuff, I am going to want to bring MORE customers to my door.... hmmm... how to do that... ah, yes, I will ask my friends and see what they think and how I can make more BUSINESS for my company. FACT: Mindless friggen sheep who worship everything about a company, friendship or not, doesn't help that company to expand it's product line. It doesn't help that company to make new sales... it is the people who sit there and offer opinions on that product, good or bad, that makes that product better... who better to ask than someone that "Wants it their way"? It's up to that company if they want to listen or not. I'll tell you this, my friendship with Steve Cooper has been strained over and over again because I tell him what I think, good or bad. His choice if he wants to use that opinion or not... he knows his business also and the money he has to spend on it... but I am sure my opinions have a TON more value than someone that will just spray drool all over the place as they chase the frisbee without asking why they are chasing it. In short: A friend will tell his friend if his zipper is down. Jack

I Think you guys missed the part where I said CL screwwed up again. A mindless sheep wouldn't say something like that. They are not good at PR. A mindless sheep wouldn't say that either. I don't like their new security system. Again. A mindless sheep wouldn't say that either. But instead of throwing myself on the floor and throwing a hissy fit crying unfair,unfair,unfair! I offered a compromise where we put up with for a while to help them make money. Then get rewared for our efforts. That's adults do. They work things out. You guys seem to just be concerned with gimme,gimme,gimme. I want!, I want!, I want! With no concern about anyone but yourselves. You do have the right to act this way Jack. But do you really like the way you look when you do it? Can you look in the mirror and say "I'm proud of acting like a spoiled brat"? You guys are going way past "I'm a consumer. And I don't like this". You're having all out tantrums. And you need a spanking. Or at least a time out. ;-) Then you try to cover it up by saying things like you didn't read what I said properly. There's nothing you can say IB that I don't know the real meaning behind it. I know you better than you know yourself. You're only kidding yourself. ScottA

"I know you better than you know yourself." Sheesh... Where's my shovel Talk about delusions of grandeur. It sure looks like your position here, has gone to your head.

I don't work here Norbert. Anything else you're an expert on? ;-)

Hmmm... I don't recall myself having a tantrum... hmm... let's see for a second... hold on, scrolling up for a minute.... Um... nope. No tantrum from me. Sorry. Nor do I recall acting like a spoiled brat... Nor have I gone past stating "I am a consumer and I don't like this"... in fact, I haven't stated ANY of my dislikes, except for the mentality of people attacking each other, and asking what's wrong with "having it my way" and thinking the sun rises and falls on Poser. I am also adult enough to know there is nothing wrong with "wanting it my way" and even know that I probably wont get it... but at least I can ask for it. Yes, you posted a possible solution. And I never said "ScottA is a mindless sheep", nope, no sir, read it again... I said that Mindless Sheep doesn't Help a company... which is a fact you yourself pointed out several posts above all of this crap. If anyone needs a "time out" it might be you.... in fact we all should. Before we do, let me leave one fact: Bear, Yourself and I DO or DID care about CL... otherwise we wouldn't all be here trying to defend or help it... look at it... we are all offering our thoughts and opinions to try and make things better... they may not mesh with each others, but slamming your friggen skulls against each other like a couple of Rams is a waste of time. The three of us don't agree... let's move on to the next phase of the bitching. :o) Jack

NP Jack. I'm not looking for a fight. I won't allow IB to try to lable me as a kissass just so he can justify his right to complain until he gets his way. You were caught in friendly fire. :-) ScottA

OK, so we have established that none of you can get layed. Read a book.

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Sure, Scott... There's things I'm an expert at. Thinking I'm a mind reader, isn't one of them. I thought, at least at one point, that you were one of the "site mommies". Excuse me if I'm wrong.

NP Norbert. I used to be. ScottA

Looking around, reading thread then sighing Come on guys, Don't let this thread turn into accusations, and nasty comments, suppositions et all. Quit trying to antagonize others and just discuss your concerns about the subject. This is NOT a testosterone (sp) Muscle bound spitting match. CL doesn't need your assessments of others behaviors. JEEZE

"I won't allow IB to try to lable me as a kissass just so he can justify his right to complain until he gets his way." snicker Naw... you'll just blithely continue to read what you want to see hoping no one will notice you couldn't manage to refute points, just call names and avoid trying to back up points you can't figure out the logic or evidence to make good on. Suggest you reread looking for the words "kissass" in there. After almost two years in mods forum together, I think you know that if I call you a "kissass", boy, I'll do it straight out instead of hiding it in rhetoric or insinuating it. I've done it to bigger people. Now... if you want to take exception to "Bullshit", "living in NeverNever Land", or "icapable of actually reading what's said", feel free - I'll cheerfull own saying those cause I did. Oh what the hell... throw "Gee Scotty - Looks like you're the one having a hissy fit" in there - I didn't say it before, but I did just now. ;] I know what I said, and my wording and word choice is always precise. I also know what I didn't say - and so do most of the people reading it that have reading and comprehension skills. And as far as "getting my/our own way" I change my mind on refuting it: I agree with Kammerer - there's nothing wrong with customers expecting to get their own way. You don't like that? Don't run a business. As a customer... I don't HAVE to justofy my right to get my own way when someone is reaching for my wallet. Don't like that? Too freaking bad. Deal with it. As far as "not allowing" me to do anything... snicker

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

You know, I am willing to bet all of this will be for nothing come Tuesday when Steve comes in here and reads all of this crap. All of us knows Curious Labs cares about all of the members here and at the other sites. As I said in a previous post (long ways up), we know from the past that they listen to our comments and suggestions, weigh them and then act upon them. That is why I think that come Tuesday, they will read this, listen to all of the suggestions and then probably decide to rework the registration process, like they did with Pro Pack. Again, they may want our help in protecting their software, which I and allot of you have already shown we are willing to do. Either way, let's all just relax a bit and see what happens come Tuesday. There's already been too much blood letting in this thread as it is. Jack

"Shonner, Are you accusing the posters of this thread at being dishonest for voicing their displeasure at an iffy copy protection scheme?" Some of them, yes. BTW, it's more of a registration scheme for Curious Labs than a protection scheme for you. SHONNER http://www.shonner.com

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

Could be. And if they do decide that the authorization isn't worth the ill feelings it's generating in their customer base, more power to them. That'll be interesting to watch also.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

This thread is now locked. Please wait until Tuesdy to contact Curious Labs. Lyrra