I am not going to not buy Poser 5. I have been walking about, wild-eyed and muttering: "must-be-first-on-block-to-own-Poser-5." Not that any of my neighbors would go in for P5.... But. Why? Hair! Cloth! Umm. Other stuff! A reason to never go outside again! Plus, Larry Weinberg is a good bloke.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

I've already ordered/paid for mine, but here are a few reasons, anyway:

The Top 10 Reasons People Aren't Buying Poser 5:

"Uhm, will it run on my 486? I only gots 32MB."
Had three years to save up after P4 released, but only started last week.
Holding out for Poser 6.
Always waits until the second patch is released.
Currently boycotting Curious Labs, DAZ 3D, Microsoft, and Disney.
No special offers for upgrading from the warez version.
Still making payments on Poser 3.
Deceased.
Two words: Linux version

And the number one reason people aren't buying Poser 5 ...
(drum roll, please)

<< Insert Gripe-of-the-Day here >>

I can't believe you had "Gripe-of-the-Day (tm)" TRADEMARKED! First this installation mess, and EULA complaints, and now this!

did not read 9 -1 cause I'm still ROTFLMAO from no 10!

Sorry about that, TalmidBen, but it's first-come, first-served at the Patent Office. :)

Want a serious answer? * Won't run well on my system. I'm at the bottom of the sys reqs, and I'm a ways away from my next processor upgrade. * Haven't seen anything that will add $200 to my artistic style. I don't generally try for photorealism. * First release is going to be buggy, with so much complexity in the program and a relatively short time in external beta. * Plan to go nuts snatching up P4 stuff in sales when P5 hits. * Disturbed desire to say "I told you so" when the honeymoon ends and people start complaining about P5 quirks.

I simply am not getting the order to go through on their site...I want to buy it, and I use enough in my artwork to make it worthwhile for me. However CL's storefront doesn't seem to want to let me! (does this fall under #1?)

Well, "store problems" was a Gripe-of-the-Day, several days ago, so yes, it qualifies.

I may, eventually, buy P5, but I want to see what others experiences are with it first.

#1 - I don't want to be considered a criminal or pornographer because I would like to do animations making use of two computers at the same time, one for rendering.

Thoudands nei millions will miss out on Poser 5 the first day because they are Macs users

or...

486 users

Linux users

people pissed off at the Challenge code

people paranoid of at the Challenge code

Emagic users (Huh, did we miss something?)

Residents of Japan

Speak certain languages

are hillbillies

0r cant get the on-line PDF working.

my reason is because i still have windows ME!!! arrrggghh

I'm not buying it because of the LAME ASS Challenge code and my inability to take my removable hard drive from work to home since they are two different machines, but one hard drive. Boo on you CL! Boo!

What's with the Windows ME comment? The System Requirements for Poser 5 list ME as a supported operating system. It is only Windows NT that is not supported.

I can't speak for her, but my guess would be she probably does not want to spend the money on P5 only to have ME crash when she sneezes the wrong way. ;-) (That goes for 98 as well.) Win2K-Pro(!!) or XP is the only way to fly.

Attached Link: Mike2 in smokey light in cinema

Well i will not buy poser5 until the Cinema4DXL import plugin is released for MAC OSX and i can host my digital poser actors in Cinema as i now do with poser4. Cinema4DXl is my primary 3D application for full CG environments effects and particle systems with poser figures as welcomed "Guest Stars" hosting poser animation in C4D allows me to utilize hardware accleration,batch rendering ,radiosity and everthing else that comes with a true high end 3D/CG software package. CL has done an excellent job with the "hair thing" and the Cloth simulation appears to be well implemented, but i would like to see more complicated clothing animated and shown to meor at least some "off the shelf "DAZ clothing items easily converted to animated cloth and posted. Sadly however Looking at the "ruby tuesday" thread with the naked woman in front of a reflective surface and a nice shiny reflective Sphere I must honestly say that the new" firefly" renderer, with its LACK of true volumetric lighting, appears to be about as good as METACREATION'S BRYCE-2 was.................................... SIX YEARS AGO!!!! :-). This is not a knock on poser5 its just the opinion of one man who uses Cinema 4DXl and Lightwave 3D 7.5 and has gotten a little Spoiled by World class lighting systems and render engines. Poser5 is a tremendous improvement over poser4 BUT for me. it will still be used only as a previsulazation and Character animation plugin for my Main CG packages.

My website

YouTube Channel

I'm having a nightmaer on their site, my serial number doesn't work, then it did, but my card was rejected (though card works fine at other places), then serial number was not working again. I'm kinda lost my zest for being quick to order, going to wait a while now until the store gets sorted out, being in the UK I'm sure i'm getting the rough end in any event, we usually do. God that's english cynicism for you.

I'm not going to buy it because of a principle. CL doesn't trust their customers and I find that insulting and extremely poor customer service. My MetaCreations Poser 4 is adequate for what I use Poser for and I don't see any need to upgrade now. At least MetaCreations trusted their customers. And I'm not that impressed with the new characters or features to put out the money for it. When and if CL gets rid of their paranoia and can trust their legitimate paying customers enough to lift that ridiculous code nonsense, I may change my mind. In the meantime, I can live with Poser 4. Melanie

Well, I won't buy Poser 5 because I have a family and a life, I have friends and a job. And kids, a summer house, other interests..... On the other hand, looking at my priorities in life a little more closely - to hell with all of that. I will buy Poser 5. :] Fish

There's a Poser 5???? When did this happen ?!?!?! Just kidding. ;) Well, haven't finished finding all those neat little tricks in Poser 4, Challenge code hooey, and low finances. In that order.

I will most likely not be buying P5, because I've read the EULA of Poser5 after a tip from a friend. It would effect my abilities as a merchant to own it by what the EULA says. I've read it several times. I wonder how many rosity members have read it. It's in the manuel for P5 for anyone who wants to read it.

If you dont all buy Poser 5 then Curious Labs will not make the money the first week. If Curious Labs dont make the money the first week they will put out the Mac version the second week, and we dont want that to happen do we? :-)

I'm not going to buy it because of a principle. CL doesn't trust their customers < Melanie, I assume that foot long reg code that MS imposes on you and demands that you MUST enter before it will let you finish installing anything from MS is a symbol of customer trust?

Why shouldn't speech be free? Very little of it is worth anything.

I'm not buying it because it's hard enough to run Poser 4 on Windows 98. It keeps giving me "out of memory" errors. And, no, I refuse to enter the 21st century and upgrade to a more stable operating system (Win 2000 or XP). If my Word 95 works fine on Windows 98, then I don't need to upgrade my OS! --John

VanishingPoint... Advanced 3D Modeling Solutions

Looks like a Tuesday AM announcement

JHoagland: LOL! That's hilarious. Good one.

"Melanie, I assume that foot long reg code that MS imposes on you and demands that you MUST enter before it will let you finish installing anything from MS is a symbol of customer trust?" Charlie Tuna, I'm still using Win 98, which came preinstalled on my computer, and I don't plan to upgrade to XP, thus I haven't had to use any of their "foot long" access codes. Another reason I won't be upgrading to P5 is money. I'm adamantly against piracy, so I don't use warez of any kind, and I really can't afford to put out the money for something I don't need. I have a stack of credit card bills and utility bills on my desk that have to come first. Sure, it would be nice to have P5, if it proves to be as good as they claim, but the fact is, I don't need it. It isn't a necessity of life. Poser 4 is quite adequate for what I use it for. Besides, as I've stated before, I'm not impressed with the new characters, "Judy" and "Don," and I would only keep using the Millennium characters from DAZ anyway. >>"If you dont all buy Poser 5 then Curious Labs will not make the money the first week." xvcoffee, that's CL's problem. They're driving away their customers all on their own. We're not doing it to them. This is a free country and I don't feel that I should be forced to buy a product just to keep one small company in business. If their company doesn't make the money, it's their own doing. There are times like this when I wish MetaCreations hadn't abandoned Poser, Bryce, Ray Dream Studio, Kai's Power Tools, etc. They didn't treat their paying customers as if they were all potential pirates. Melanie

not buying it, because: 1. i generally don't render in poser, anyway. 2. i have overcome my poser addiction with a rhino addiction. 3. i only p4, lately, to set up little characters and stuffies i've been working on. 4. it has failed to really impress me. i hear about all the wonderful "new" features....but, am not getting visuals of say the facemorph room, collision proof clothing...and, an updated dork and posette just aren't worth the money to me. 5. if it does impress me when renders hit the gallery...i will still wait for the bugs to be fixed.

Hey Melanie, 1. So I assume you don't go shopping in any stores that have cameras or a security system like devices attached to clothing, etc? These companies are automatically assuming that you can't be trusted. 2. You have a computer where Win98 was preinstalled so you didn't have to enter the LONG NUMBER? Gee, what happens when your computer DIES or if the harddrive fries? me thinks you'll have to upgrade then. :) And... in a few years, newer programs won't have Win98 as the OS that will run their programs. 3. Poor customer service? Why? Because they implemented this copy protection? If that's what you mean, see item #1 above. 4. So... you haven't patched your METACREATIONS POSER with any of the CL patches? If you did, it's a CURIOUS LABS POSER now! :) 5. Why don't you just say you're not gonna buy it now because you have real-life problems LIKE bills? Move into the real world Melanie and see what's going on around you. You deal with anti-theft protection all of the time. How dare those car makers make us use keys to get into our cars! Have you EVER misplaced your car keys? What an annoyance THAT can be. "Ridiculous code nonsense"? Do YOU lock your car? Bet you do. What's the problem here? Don't trust people? My point here Melanie is that you and everyone else needs to get a grip. This is the REAL WORLD and we deal with this stuff every day. It's just that most people don't SEE it. Try getting some perspective and you'll see. The Poser5 copy protection is NO different than anything else.

Melanie, you say "There are times like this when I wish MetaCreations hadn't abandoned Poser, Bryce, Ray Dream Studio, Kai's Power Tools, etc. They didn't treat their paying customers as if they were all potential pirates." No, they just treated us like we didn't count AT ALL. They abandonded us, not the other way around. Thanks goodness that companies like CL and Corel brought back to life some of the best 3D programs around. I sure would hate to fork over thousands for 3D Studio or Lightwave. There is no way I could afford those programs. I have my order in for Poser 5 and I have no problem with registering the program. Peggy

LVS - Where Learning is Fun!
http://www.lvsonline.com/index.html

i think melanie sounds as if she is pretty firmly planted in the real world. she mentions stuff like bills must come first. i think it is cool someone can be honest about not "having to have" p5 because everyone else is getting it. My point here Melanie is that you and everyone else needs to get a grip. hon, trust me....i have a grip. just no inclination to buy something i'm not real sure i will use. also, got enough of a grip that i am not saying it is a never-will-buy....just need more proof of what it can actually DO. 'cause i have those ol' real world bills too.

I think Melanie is very grounded, and her honesty is refreshing. I don't totally agree, especially about the Metacreations item. As previsouly noted, I am totally against anti-piracy measures, I think they're absurd/irellevant ... but I'm pretty sure CL will gain more customers than they will lose, even with the galling (IMHO) copy-protection. No offense, but as to the "car keys theory" posted by Mega, I won't even begin to waste my time to explain why that is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being a valid analogy. Just think about it for 5-10 seconds and I'm sure you (or anyone else who accepted it) will understand why. Sorry, that's just not even remotely valid. Bottom line though ... what the music industry is considering doing is 100 times worse. I'm just waiting for the day when consumers finally stand up and say enough is enough. Or is it too late? -Tim

Okay timoteo1... explain (yes, explain) why the car keys analogy is NOT valid. Oh please, "waste" your time. We lock our cars because we don't know who is honest or dishonest. The professional thief WILL break in no matter what - the unprofessional will have a more difficult time. Poser5 copy protection - the "professional cracker" WILL break the copy protection code - the unprofessional (aka casual copier) will have a more difficult time. So... EXPLAIN why "that's just not even remotely valid." Will it take that long to explain? Poppi - yeah, she's grounded because she mentions her bills come first. Well... of course that's smart. Unfortunately she mentions this in her SECOND post and it's probably her MAIN reason for not buying Poser5 NOW. And saying that you haven't entered the Windows long codes because Win98 was already on her machine is just naive. So, she didn't put it on her machine. But it WAS put on her machine. And if she eventually upgrades she'll probably have to do it anyway. To me, that's not a very firm grasp on the reality of the situation. And poppi, when did I ever say YOU don't have a grip? If you're not sure you'll be using the software or if it's right for you, then WHY would I assume you'd buy it? Okay? You should get a grip on what you're saying. Anybody who buys Poser5 first and worries about real-world bills second has a serious reality problem anyway. My bottom line - when everyone becomes intelligent enough to create their own programs, then I guess we won't have to worry about this sort of thing, will we?

Longer than I want to waste on something so obvious, but for the better good ...

One word: CONTROL. I OWN the car AND the keys, AND the locks too for that matter. I can make as many copies of the keys as I want, I can change the locks. Also, I have the CHOICE on how it is protected or even IF it is protected. And OBVIOUSLY, it is for MY protection of property NOT Ford's, Mercedes, Chrysler's, Nissan's, etc. It is a completely different issue altogether, this is plain to see.

-Tim

PS> BTW, you do not OWN software ... you are buying a license to USE it.

Ok timoteo1 - your flaw is that WE own the car. And you even pointed it out - we do NOT OWN the software. We license it. CL owns the software. They are protecting their investment. They've decided to lock their car all the time. If you decide differently then that's YOUR choice. Your analogy is flawed - you reversed it. Just look at the owners of each item (CL owns Poser - WE own the car) we're talking about and perhaps YOU will understand. And THANK YOU so much for wasting your time on something so OBVIOUS. Yeah... right. Flawed, yes. Obvious, no.

PSS> Your second "analgoy" about casual vs. professional is incorrect as well ... Welcome to the late 20th early 21st century ... these days the "casual" pirate will simply download the hacked version off the Internet as one post from a member (amazingly) already eluded to. This is far easier, and more casual, than going through the trouble of obtaining, trying to copy a CD, and then returning a CD yourself. Dag nabbit, I ended up wasting even more time. ;-)

LOL!! Like I thought, I was wasting my time. It's useless. Keep trolling.

Yes - you're right. IF the casual copier knows where to look. MANY don't. It's stopping them. Or won't you even concede that the copy protection will stop anyone? CL has the right to do what they want to do. YOU have the right to buy or Not to buy. It's ONLY an inconvenience for US. There are far more pressing issues in the world than this (rather stupid) one. Looks like you'll waste even more time! :D

Oh timoteo1... you are SO funny. LOL!? Yes, I guess you are wasting your time because it's USELESS here as well. You've made up your mind as I have. It doesn't matter if you're against anti-piracy measures or not. They are here for the time being. Until someone (perhaps you?) can come up with a foolproof method - which of course probably doesn't exist - there will always be attempts at copy protection.As I said above, CL has the right to copy protect. YOU have the right NOT to buy. So... you may think I'm "trolling." I'm here all of the time - it's just when people get so upset over little things and start ranting and raving that I end up "speaking." When I have a question or something to say, I say it. As with everything, feel free to think what you think - as I do all of the time. Good Luck!

I agree with you on that ... they are here, and probably more than for the time being, unfortunately. I bought P5 the minute I read the pre-order was available. It's just that I agree with those posting that the copy-protection scheme is invasive, and IMHO, ultimately futile. It only hurts the honest customer. These days it doesn't even hurt the casual pirate. Oh, well ... this debate has raged on for years, and I'm sure will rage on for many more. We'll see another thread on this after the software release, you can count on it. -Tim

megalodon, you did include Poppi when you said... "My point here Melanie is that you AND EVERYONE ELSE needs to get a grip." The "and everyone else" includes her and everyone here. I guess that must mean that you're the only one here who has a grip. That must make you feel pretty special. I'm sure I'm a lot older than you are and have been here in "the real world" a lot longer than you have. Last March I turned 52. I think I have quite a good grip on life. Poser is just not my main staple in this life. I never made statments to irk you pesonally, and you came into this thread pertty late to start judging people. We all have our personal reasons for our decisions and we all have our right to voice those reasons. And just for the record, I'm legally blind in one eye, so I don't drive a car, and therefore can't lose my keys. Melanie

thanks, melanie....i hate it when folks lump others together, then, try to fudge on it.

Why Melanie, you have been here longer than I have - I'm 43. Congrats! When I said - you and everyone else needs to get a grip - it wasn't necessarily saying that EVERY POINT I was making was meant for EVERY person in this forum. You need to get a grip in particular when you start saying - "I'm not going to buy it because of a principle. CL doesn't trust their customers and I find that insulting..." Read what I said about department store security and cameras, etc. You accept one but not the other? Perhaps because one has been around longer than the other and since we've lived with it for so long it's accepted? They are the same. And not understanding that you will eventually have to upgrade your computer because sometime in the future newer software won't be able to run on '98? Your principles may need adjustment if you will be running any popular software - unless copy protection dies. Not likely, but it's possible. Being 52 you should have a better understanding. My guess is that you do but are too angry to see it. Regardless of the fact that you don't have a car/don't drive - I would think that you would understand the meaning. I DO know that you never said anything to irk me personally :) but too often people say things before they think (gee, I'm NEVER guilty of that:) and then don't even think about it after that. If you don't want to buy Poser5 because it's got copy protection, fine. As I said before, most of the people saying that they won't be buying Poser5 because of the copy protection will eventually buy it because they'll be seeing too many great things coming out of people that have it. I wish you nothing but the best! Truly! Poppi - What I meant about everyone getting a grip... I guess in a way I DID mean you. Especially when you said that you didn't even know if you would find the software useful? Why would I expect you to buy it? What does that even have to do with you then. If you're not a real contender to buy the software, then why are you interested? And by the way... where did I try to "fudge on it"? Just curious. And the same to you - I wish you nothing but the best!

Especially when you said that you didn't even know if you would find the software useful? Why would I expect you to buy it? errrr...i have p4. i found it useful. still do, for conforming and things like that. and, it still will be useful...because i don't have anything else to set up my little models in. but...my own ideas of what I want to achieve are changing. maybe, for a little relaxation, or because i had a picture in my head, i might sit down and pose a picture. if i am serious about the picture, i go ahead and pose it in bryce. i like to think i am "growing" in my 3d art. i started off with bryce....and tried my hardest to make decent lattice...or boolean based models....didn't do too swell. when i got poser it was great to have people and creatures to put in my scenes. but, i have gotten to the point where i want to actually CREATE the people and creatures. dragging vicki's limbs around just doesn't do it anymore. some of the things that p5 is supposed to offer sound like they could be very useful, to me. but, i have not seen enough of these "features" to actually want the program. i don't know why you feel the need to chastise those of us who are not jumping on the buy p5 frenzy. we aren't hurting you. we aren't hurting cl.

Poppi - I couldn't care less if you bought Poser5 today, tomorrow, next week, next year - or never. I was commenting on the people saying that they're not buying Poser5 simply because of the copy protection implementation and all of its implications. THAT'S ALL. If I gave the impression (which I obviously have) that I think EVERYONE should buy Poser5 NOW - I'm sorry. Again, that was NOT my intention. Sorry for the confusion.

I also dislike the store security you spoke of, especially if it happens to be in fitting rooms, but I see this as quite different. When you enter a store, you don't have to ask permission to come in. You aren't required a security access number just to get in the door every time you come back. You aren't asked to punch in a security code just to be on the store's property. They still exercise some benefit of the doubt and trust by keeping their doors unlocked during business hours and allowing everyone to enter without going through a process. When Poser was with MC, all you had to do was type in your serial number once during installation and that was it. In fact, you didn't even have to register it at all if you didn't want to. You were encouraged to in order to get the mailings and technical support and upgrade prices, but registration wasn't required. You didn't have to ask for an access code to unlock the program before you could even use it. Same with Bryce, Ray Dream Studio, and many others. I have many principles I live by in other areas of my life besides this. Sorry that my decision, based on a principle, offends you, mega, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :) This thread has gotten way off topic now. I think we should get back to the original question of why we're not buying Poser 5 and stop criticizing people over their personal reasons. Melanie

Melanie, Your "sticking to your principles" does not offend me AT ALL. You (obviously) may do as you please. You first said: "CL doesn't trust their customers and I find that insulting..." and neither do department stores. If they did, there would be NO security system at all. And, you said: "At least MetaCreations trusted their customers." Yes, and where is MetaCreations now? They, as was stated in an earlier post, abandoned their customers. Pretty nice huh? And trusting their customers? CL did that as well. We don't know what would have happened had MC kept Poser, but I'd bet they would have went with a similar process - but as I said, we'll never know. Let me ask you this... what happens if stores start having you "sign in" at the front before you purchase anything? You won't shop there? What if ALL stores went this way? You would HAVE to adapt. It may be that all software companies will do the same as MS, CL and scores of others have already done. Then we ALL will have no choice but to adapt. I was commenting (okay, criticizing if you wish) on what I saw as taking a side but not really seeing it. In the end, it doesn't really matter anyway. We (and everyone else) will do what we want to do. So... still... take care and BEST of luck to you!

Re: Stores Every time I go to Costco (or Sam's club) I have to show my membership card before I can even enter the store. I have to show it again at the checkout stand. Then I have to show my receipt at the exit so that it can be checked against the items in my cart. This last step serves two purposes - it ensures that I've paid for everything in my cart and it also ensures that the checkout clerk didn't forget to put all my purchases in the cart (How many times have you walked out of a store only to have to go back and get something that you paid for but was left on the counter at the checkout? I know it's happened to me a time or two). So, the claim that we are free to enter the store freely at any time does not always apply. Re: Registration I have no problem registering the product. I have to register my car in order to drive it. And I have to RENEW that registration annually. At least with most copy protections you only have to register the product ONCE, not every year for as long as you use it. I have to register my house (can you say title search and property taxes, boys and girls?) otherwise, anyone can claim ownership. I am also the "registered" user of my utilities, telephone, cable TV and computer service, water and garbage service, etc., etc. The point is, we register things all the time in our daily lives and think absolutely nothing of it. We register our pets, our personal property, our transportation, even our dwellings so that we are on record somewhere as the LEGAL OWNERS/Responsible parties. So, given all that, why are so many making such a big deal out of registering a piece of software? Unless, of course, you don't want the company to know you have the software, in which case, if someone manages to steal it from you (via hacked access codes or serial numbers) the company cannot protect your interests. A while back, Poppi had her computer stolen, with the hard drive intact. Now, if she hadn't registered her copy of Poser with CL (I don't know if she did or not) the thief could have registered the copy loaded on her hard drive, cutting her off from updates, discounts, etc. BUT, if her copy WAS registered, then any attempt at registering the product with her serial numbers/access codes/whatever would have triggered an alert and the theif would have been caught. (Ok, that's rather an unlikely scenario, but it's used merely to illustrate a point here). The thing is, a lot of people are forgetting that it works both ways. Not only is CL protected, but so is the end user. It may not SEEM that way, but it IS true. I think a lot of the time people can be just a little short sighted, seeing things from only one viewpoint and missing out on a larger picture as a result. Kate (who will go along with the new protection measures initially, but if they cause too many problems will lobby for changes and adjustments to the system to make it viable for BOTH sides)

Kate, Please, do not get the impression that this is a personal attack or I am picking on you expressly. It is just that the majority of people have had the "wool pulled over their eyes" by the marketing ploys of companies for so long that they no longer "see the light". For instance, where do you think you get the majority of your spam, junk mail, telemarketing calls, etc from? The information you gave to company X, Y, and Z in good faith for their product/service has been sold - usually without your consent - to third parties. I am sure when you offered this information for a desired purpose, it was not to be harassed by others who want your hard-earned money. Costco and the like are "Membership Warehouses" that do not accurately represent the majority of retail stores. Their primary goal is to get you to pay for membership and make sure that if you shop there, you have paid. I have been in these storse (in fact, I worked for Costco at one point in time) and passed through the "security" without them so much as being at the door, nevermind checking the bags, etc. If you enter, say, a 7-11, do you have to show your driver's license or Social Security card, or passport? Just a few examples to show that there is a definite difference. Likewise, the examples of "registrations" (ie, houses, utilities, etc) are inaccurate: * Despite what many people think, they do not actually "own" their property. The property is still owned by the respective state and is only "owned" by you or your relatives for as long as someone is there to claim it. If, by chance, there are no surviving relatives, the property is reverted back to state control for whatever purpose necessary. Also, there is the fact of "eminent domain", in which a state or other legal entity can claim your property for merely "fair market value" and oust you or whomever is unfortunate enough to live there at the time. Also, although I am unsure if it is still legal, there used to be "squatter's rights", in which if someone occupied a portion of land for X amount of time, it was legally considered theirs, regardless of who it legally belonged to. Delve deeply enough into the property laws and you will see that this is the case. (I forget the source, but I do know I have seen this in a legal context along the way.) * Utilities, et al, are products and services. You contract with the respective company to provide that product/service according to agreements. You usually only have to do this once - upon contracting the service - or whenever significant changes are made. Most of the registration processes you describe are one time only, unlike the CL and MS activation processes that require multiple registrations under certain circumstances. These registration schemes do not, in fact, protect the user. That is another fallacy that companies would like to make consumers believe. How did registering Poser prevent Poppi's computer/copy of Poser from being stolen? Sure, Poppi may have been able to re-register (most likely because she had the reciept, credit card statement, proof of ownership, etc), but the copy on the stolen computer/Poser is still "missing" and on the computer (if not reformatted or resold by now).

Very well said, CyberStretch. Kate, I also have a Costco card as well as a Bi-Mart card, but flashing a card at an employee posted at the door as you enter is not an inconvenience. You don't have to enter a code or receive a brand new access registration every time you wish to enter the store. As far as registering software, I always register mine (maybe some of the cheapy under $10 games I've bought at Office Depot or something I haven't always bothered, but my expensive ones I always register for upgrade purposes), it's just that most software companies don't REQUIRE registratiion in order to make the program work. In some ways, CL reminds me of the Borg on Star Trek. "You will be assimilated! Resistance is futile!" Register or else we won't let you use the program you just paid hard-earned money to use. It's sort of a subtle form of blackmail. This is what I'm so opposed to. It's the force that's being put on their customers. If I should eventually choose to jump in and buy it, I'll follow their ridiculous instructions, but I don't have to like it. In the meantime, I'm hoping that maybe they'll change their minds and ease up on the restrictive manner in which we're allowed to use their software. Melanie

CyberStretch... You say: "Most of the registration processes you describe are one time only, unlike the CL and MS activation processes that require multiple registrations under certain circumstances." And let's say that you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. But MOST is not ALL. The car registration example Kate uses is a prime example. If you DON'T register your car every year you CAN'T legally drive it. If you DON'T register Poser5 each time you put it on your machine you CAN'T use it. CL has decided to move in a certain direction. While I'm sure none of us really likes this process, it's very much like the car registration. We don't want to have to do it, but in order to use it we must. Look, as I said earlier, it's obvious that everyone has formed their opinion and it's not likely to be changed. Some just have a harder time than others seeing the similarities in everyday things we already take for granted - I have not figured out which category I fall into. It all comes down to "is the software important enough to me to put up with the hassle?" If it is, you'll buy it - and if it isn't, you won't. Enough said!

mega, While is it "obvious that everyone has formed their opinion and it's not likely to be changed", some people like to think that logically discussing an issue can lead to a compromise or a solution that is acceptable by everyone. Some also believe that change is only possible through stating your opinion and exchanging those thoughts and ideas with others. CL does have a presence here and, I am sure, will read a good percentage of the posts. As was evidenced in the past with the PPP release, public opinion can, and often does, influence companies to re-evaluate their position in order to placate their consumers' concerns. Likewise, there are others who frequent these forums who may benefit from the discussion when they decide to launch their commercial endeavors, if they have not already done so. So far, the majority of the discussion has been constructive; with the occasional outburst from someone who has reached wits end and calls for an end to the discussion. For those who feel that more discussion is warranted, the discussion will continue until nothing is left to be said and it gracefully fades. For those who do not, I suppose they will spend more time pursuing other posts/threads with more meaning and relevance to them.

CyberStretch, You are correct - CL does have a presence here and they more than likely read a good percentage of the posts. The problem is, this is the same discussion we all had back when ProPack was being released. CL relented then. Do you think that they forgot that particular uproar and just went ahead this time with this copy protection anyway? Not likely. I will wager that this time there will be NO relenting no matter what opinions are expressed here. And please, don't get me wrong - It is VERY important that people convey their opinions. My sole "problem" is that people talked about why they weren't going to buy Poser5 without thinking about all of the other things they put up with in life ONLY because they've become so used to them, i.e. car registration. And this is only ONE item where it is relevant - I am sure we put up with ALOT more than this. My point is... CL is not the only entity doing this. THINK about the other things in your life that you HAVE to put up with and put everything in perspective. That's all. Express your opinions? ABSOLUTELY. And also... use your (everyone including me) brain!

mega, In my opinion, any company that does not take serious heed of its customers desires will not be around long enough to matter much anyway. Therefore, if CL does value their customers, a compromise surely would be in order - given the amount of people who have taken the time to post their opposing thoughts and opinions about the activation scheme. Just because people follow the law, does not mean they like it or even approve it. Unfortunately, for most people, politics have grown to the point where you are "damned if you do, damned if you don't"; therefore many people give up feeling that they have a snowball's chance in Hell of ever changing anything. These are the sad "mindless sheep" that accept any and every law, regardless of how adversely it affects them or infringes upon their children or their childrens' children. The saying "You can't fight city hall" has become their mantra. It is far easier to sit back and do nothing than it is to place yourself in the spotlight and demand that things change. Due to years upon years of people blindly following without questioning authority, we are the sad recipients of our ancestors' failings. Granted, we have a voice and can change things, but everyone knows that humanity, as a whole, has an extreme adversity to any changes. Therefore, those who will and do take action, generally do so in a concerted and very well calculated manner. However, there is a lot more power to be wielded by a focused group of people as diverse and geographically dispersed as those who purchase CLs' products. Chances are, you would be hard pressed to scare up a handful of Poser users within your local geographical region. However, here on R'osity and other sites, the small user populations can unite and voice their opinions to a hopefully receptive company; as there is strength in numbers. Since we are so diverse and dispersed, they cannot tie the mentality to the usual demographics. It is more of a plea to CL and others to bring back the focus as customers being the top priority than it is about the activation scheme; although that is the current vehicle of many users' displeasure. Perhaps it is those that claim to see who are at fault, because they concentrate on the world as it is presented to them vs the world they could have if they only had the guts and stamina to stand up for what they believe in vs allowing others to tell them what will and will not be? Every little step you allow anyone to take that slightly diminshes your rights is one more step to a world in which you will have no rights whatsoever. Usually, whatever is lost is only gained back by an exponential amount of blood, sweat, and tears when compared to what it takes to lose it. I would venture a guess that most people here have grown up in an era where software licensing - in some form or another - was the norm. However, some of us remember the good old days when once you purchased something, you had every legal right to do with it as you pleased. What some of us are doing is finally standing on our own two feet and stating firmly that this is enough. Others have transgressed far enough into our personal space and freedoms and we will no longer take whatever they say as gospel lying down. It takes someone with a spine and strong vocal cords to change anything. If you sit back and say nothing, nothing will ever change; except that little by little, the life you enjoy now will be taken piece by piece from under your feet until you really open your eyes to see the truth. Some of us have lived long enough to see this happen and we are trying to forewarn those with less life experience. Others will need to experience it on their own, hopefully before they wake up one day and realize that they have no power whatsoever to change anything because they laid complacent for so long.

Cyberstretch, besides being completely in agreement to what you've been saying, I must say thatI am both astounded and surprised with your ability to "tell it like it is" without being snippy or coming off as overbearing!! Easy to read, easy to understand your points and views, without seeming like you are "ranting" or standing on a virtual soapbox. Ever think of doing PR work? :o) Jack

"Ever think of doing PR work? :o)" If the price is right, every man's soul is for sale. LOL

CyberStretch, For the most part, I agree with you. But... more to the point of my last post - do you NOT remember the tremendous uproar over the ProPack release? CL did not enter into this Poser5 protection this time lightly. They KNEW that they would be in for this sort of reaction - and yet they did it anyway. Many people will BUY the software anyway even though they don't like the protection (I can't imagine ANYONE who WOULD like the protection) because there is no other software out there that does everything that Poser does in ONE package - AND... like you said, "...every man's soul is for sale." And YES, unless we put our foot down things will not change - however... I choose my battles. Some people think that software copy protection is paramount. Others, such as myself, would rather focus on more human issues such as ethnic conflicts and starvation (which before you ask, I am quite active in.) Expend your energy where it will really count to change things to help PEOPLE live. Unfortunately... it is too easy to get caught up in the less-severe issues of our time rather than focus on the immediate human needs now. You and others here may take your stand on copy protection and that is fine. But, like I said before: "...it's obvious that everyone has formed their opinion and it's not likely to be changed." Considering your steadfastness to yours, I seriously doubt whether your opinion would have been swayed. Regardless of the intelligent conversations and opposing viewpoints presented in this forum, I sincerely doubt that ANYONE'S opinion here has changed. Yes, it's very good to talk about these things. But... for the most part, the only thing that's accomplished is informing others of a particular viewpoint and showing CL that their copy protection is not appreciated. We do what we must. Good luck with your fight.

1-Software Registration Dongles- But, It's just a "little more inconvenient" 2-Software Auto-Update, Auto Billing But it's just a "little more inconvenient" 3-Software Yearly Rental Agreements- But it's just a "little more inconvenient" 4-Software Rental for Each Usage Session- But it's just a "little more inconvenient" Make no mistake about it, this is the road that the music industry, Microsoft, Disney, Oracle & others would like to take us down. Continue to support their efforts if you wish but know what you'r getting into. I have to register my car because not enough people complained at the time this policy was instituted. Besides, I Need a car to make a living. I don't Need hobby software. I won't consider buying P5 either if this isn't corrected.

If I remember correctly, it was only by "accident" that someone noticed the activation plans in the low-res version of the P5 manual. Unlike many of the fine posts by Kupa and others showing off the highlights of P5 to get the potential consumers drooling over what they can do, this received no regal fanfare and, apparently, was an attempt to slip under the radar of most users since a vast majority of users never even read a EULA agreement. In fact, I believe the legality of all EULAs has been questioned by lawmakers before, if not still on-going, due to the fact that most people never read them in the first place. Again, CL did try this before and with enough clamor from the consumers, it was dropped. Regardless if they added it back in or not, that does show some semblance of altering company policy based upon consumer feedback. So, if nothing else, there is a glimmer of hope - no matter how small or dim it may be - that they will once again recognize the error of their ways and do something proactive about it. Back into current reality: Since they did reintroduce the activation scheme after knowing that a good percentage of consumers opposed it in the past, that shows - to me at least - there is a sort of veneer-type face that they put on themselves in public to get the users to deify CL to the point where they can do no wrong, while in practice they could care less. Therefore, this should cause a little more concern than the average Poser user seems to be exhibiting. As for the other ethnical and international issues you mention, just because someone is overtly vocal about one form of "oppression" (ie, slowly losing personal digital rights) does not mean that they are not actively involved in other arenas as well. I have taken part in many activities for such causes and will continue to do so in the future. In relation to this thread, there is very little, if indeed any, relevance to its inclusion in the discussion. Hopefully, CL has had the opportunity to read through the discussions and will present their internal motivations so the rest of us do not have to continue to speculate off the minute information we have had to glean from several sources.

...If you DON'T register your car every year you CAN'T legally drive it. If you DON'T register Poser5 each time you put it on your machine you CAN'T use it. There are two glaring aspects that nullify this as an argument. 1. Car registration is imposed not by the manufacturer but by the government. It is a related but entirely separate matter. 2. The proceeds from car registration are theoretically used to benefit the public by providing funds to maintain roadways, etc, etc. While the benefit to CL is obvious the benefit to its' public is less clear. And please don't tell me that it is necessary if I want Poser to survive as a product so I may continue to use it. Software is like life on earth. Something will always come along to fill an ecological niche and if it's not Poser it will be something else. I don't mind entering serial numbers when installing software. I don't even mind registering if it is a one time process. But I have been subjected to similar protection schemes in the past and it has always proven to be a PITA! So put me in the category who will not buy P5 with such a protection system active. While I cannot avoid all inconveniences or inequities in life I will avoid those I can. It happens that P5 is eminently avoidable. - Jack

"In fact, I believe the legality of all EULAs has been questioned by lawmakers before, if not still on-going, " They're still ongoing. There's suits and even a couple of class actions either currently ongoing or pending on just that subject in California and a couple of other states. Wether they'll have any effect on EULA's and rulings on the legalities of the contracts therein... quien sabe? Too early to tell. Even if they make it into eventual court cases and get rulings, if those rulings are in favor of the plaintiffs there'll still be the endless rounds of appeals, out of court settlements and other maneuvers to go through.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

IB, Thanks for the update.

Np. That was a bit vague, but I looked at my favorites folder where I tend to shove links to stuff like that, kind of blanched at the thought of hunting through several pages of bookmarks for the ones I was thinking of, and said "aw screw it, that's why the gods invented Alltheweb.com". There are a ton of links out there on EULA's, the legal aspects, and various suits and challenges though... it's just a matter of wanting to hunt through links and wade through the legalese. More than I cared for at 7am. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

Dude, I dual-boot because of Poser... If it wasn't for Poser, Rhino, and Vue d'Esprit, I'd have ditched Windows a looooooooong time ago :) In either case, Codeweavers, Lindows, Transgaming Technologies, and good ol' winehq.org have each advanced WINE to the point where it looks quite feasible to run Poser under wine with no hangups. I managed to pull off a render in Poser under wine nearly a year ago using WineX from Transgaming, though it wasn't all that stable. Meanwhile, Win2k does the job well enough. If CL decides within the next couple of years not to go with a Linux version, then I'll start looking seriously at Shake and Maya, or at anyone willing to code a PoserClone for Linux for that matter (shrug). But for now, I already have Win2k, so I may as well run Poser in that. /P

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: WHY ARE YOU NOT GOING TO BUY POSER 5 ? ? ?