I'm not a "regular" in this forum, well I even don't come to this comunity on a regular basis, and when I do, it is mostly for the Cinema 4D forum. But in the last 24 hours, I read a lot on Poser 5 here, wise statements und bullshit alike. It may be a dead topic, but I have come to a descision, I want to share.

All things discussed here on the "protection" system for Poser 5 will lead to nothing, CL has come to an descision, and it will not listen to to the opinions of the users. All that can be said has been said, there is no need to discuss it any further.
So I will resume to only what is my point of view:

I don't deny CL the right to protect thier intellectual property, but I do deny them the right to "harass" me with this scheme as a paying client, giving me the feeling to do something illegal in using a software I bought, without telling them if and when I change my hardware. THIS IS NONE OF THIER CONCERN!
I feel tricked into buying the overpriced ProPack just for the ability to use Poser for pictures done with Cinema with an almost useless Plugin, a "ProPack" which will be more useless to me once I have Cinema R8 installed. And now there is this scheme, where other, less invasive measure would have been more apropiate.
So, I don't need Poser 5, I (will) have better things.
So, my descision is in the only language businesses understand: Lost sales.
Therefore:
I WILL NOT BUY POSER 5 OR ANY OTHER CL-PRODUCT AS LONG AS THEY KEEP UP SUCH SCHEMES!

This is not said to influence the descision of any other person visiting this comunity, everyone has to make his or her own one, but I would not mind if others would make the same one.

And at this point, if CL has to close its offices, to me it would be no loss. At current information basis, CL is, for me, on the list of companies not to make buisness with.

This is my opinion, and it will stay this way unless CL proves otherwise.

I agree CL will not change the protection, it's too late anyway. Although they may change it later. There was a thread on the issue last weekend in which plenty of people said they wouldn't buy P5 because of the protection method. We were asked to "wait until after the holiday" for a response from CL. No response yet. Many people feel ProPack was a ripoff for many different reasons. And if P5 doesn't turn out to be the great product that's expected, CL just might have to close their doors.

Attached Link: http://www.curiouslabs.com/article/articleview/259/1/48/

WOG, We did respond, in a thread that was open and not heated. But only after we had a thorough dissertation on the issue prepared. Here's a link to the FAQ. Kupa

There was a lot more to PPP than just the exporters and the validation was quite painless. If you don't buy P5 you're a fool...

I think the link that kupa posted answers almost everything that people have been concerned about regarding the security measures. I haven't been influenced by kosmokrat's statement, I was influenced by seeing poser5 renders & kupa, nosfiratu & others being really excited about Poser5, that's why I've ordered it & I'm going to enjoy using it as much or even more than I've enjoyed using poser4. Rob

Hm, answer was given in a second thread, knowing that the question was asked in the first thread? Think of it like I do. It says enough, I think. I,m now as frustrated as I was happy as I,ve readed about the new Poserversion. No need to think that you can live without my money. Right Kupa? Robert

Well, for one thing, the first thread was locked and couldn't be responded to.

Yep, I just found Steve's response, sorry for speaking before checking (although it was kind of far back ;) ) Saxon, people who don't need the new features would be fools to buy P5, at least at this time. There is only one significant improvement (as far as I can tell) to the old Poser 4: the new Library system. Everything else seems the same. Many might not consider that one improvement to be worth $129.

What's the problem here!!! Ok its a drag having to go through this rigmarole_ BUT you know why its thought neccessary??!! Its because some arseholes out there think that free and warez stuff is somehow their god given right. And sure there will be hackers and other criminals out there who have the system cracked within days-but it'll stop the casual warez user who thinks he's doing no harm to anyone.Bullshit. The guys at CL have families and livings to make just like other decent folk.If the company thrives our community thrives. If its undermined by idiots who think a free copy is a great wheeze then we all lose.If you are going to boycott the product because the company is trying to protect your investment, well, more fool you. I for one am happy for CL to make sure that all users are legitimate(in both senses of the word!)

The main reason I am excited is the new rendering engine, and the library system, the cloth system, the face room. All of these seem significant to me.

If you are going to boycott the product because the company is trying to protect your investment, well, more fool you I,m trying to protect MY investment, Noggin. If you would have readed the other thread you would know what I,m talking about. Ooops, you,re right Jcleaver. It,s a little bit difficult to answer on a locked thread. So I,ve to say 'Sorry, Kupa'. I was a little bit to fast with my answer here. Robert

Some Will ...
Some Won't ...
So What ?

... and when the dust settles ...

... and the absolutely beautiful pictures begin to appear here on Renderosity <---(just possibly the greatest web site in the world for graphics artists) ...

Those that did not participate in using Poser5 ...

... MAY reconsider their decision. IMVHO!

---

I'm excited and ...

I can't wait and ...

I will participate in whatever security scheme that Curious Labs has used to try and protect it's investment.

PERIOD!!!

cheers,
dr geep <--------------- hoping my P5 is 'in the mail'
;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

I find it a big pain that they even charge for the software. Until they start giving it out for free i am boycotting them as well.

I'm with you Kosmokrat! CL can live without my money. I don't blame tham for protecting there property - but i'll be damned if i'll mail them everytime i make a change to my hardware - That IS none of their damn business. Saxon; Read his mail again! He's a Cinema user - why would he need P5?

Doesnt bother me a bit. I am so use to owning apps that do things like this that I would wonder why CL isnt. I am just glad CL is still here with all its great people. Kupa, Anthony, Scarlet and all the rest. Thank you for an incredible app. Ron

(shrug)... As a Linux Freak who went out of way to ditch a pre-installed copy of Win XP on his laptop in favor of Win2k because of XP's activation spyware and BS, I'm still buying Poser 5 with no hesitation. Why? Because: 1) I have nothing to hide. I want absolute proof sitting on file with Curious Labs that I'm not a warez kitten, unlike more than a couple of users prolly are. No accusations at anyone in this thread, just stating a basic fact. To clarify: I strongly suspect that the reason some folks won't go to P5 is because they warezed P4, and are secretly hoping that a P5 crack becomes available real soon. Again, no accusations are to be made against any individual in this thread, period. 2) P5 != Operating System. If this registration thingy fails and causes Poser to crash and burn, I'm not out a boatload of data, like XP users would be. 3) I'd trust Curious Labs a HELL of a lot more than I'd trust Microsoft. 4) If you think P5's registration routine is bad, try getting your mitts around setting up a legal copy of 3DS Max, Inventor, Maya, Lightwave, Shake, or other high-end proggies... P5 is a complete kitten to register by comparison, and there's no hardware dongle to lose. 5) How many folks here use Windows XP, Office 2k/XP, etc? ALL of those require the same damned process to activate, yet I'm willing to wager that a few of those who complain about P5 are using Windows XP right now! /P

;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Although, I knew the protection after I ordered the P5, I dont change my mind. I can live with the small inconvenience. It is nothing to do with the P5 quality. My main interests are the quality of the Poser5. I respect the right to protect themselves. If I work hard on something, I want to protect it. I, myself, dont consider the protection an important issue to judge the P5

Opps sorry i meant starlet. Larry you still around. If so speak up!!!! Ron

to WISARDOFGAUZE Where have you been, man ??? Haven't you read the feature list and the discussions concerning P5 ??? The library system is one of many new improvements... How about the ability to develop hair. The fact Pro PAck is integrated into P5...for those that did not buy PP..they now have it...minus the plugins-, but they're on the way. Face Room...use photos, face sculpting, etc etc the new renderer--hybrid micro-polygon and Ray Trace render engine with subdivision surface rendering of polygons. Dynamic Cloth... come on--this is a major upgrade..... >Saxon, people who don't need the new features would be >fools to buy P5, at least at this time. There is only one >significant improvement (as far as I can tell) to the old >Poser 4: the new Library system. Everything else seems >the same. Many might not consider that one improvement to >be worth $129.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

Boy, I'm tired of the self-rightousness. You don't like feeling like your criminal? What have you done that security would make you paranoid? It's like this applicant we had today. He came to the building we work in, was stopped by the security guard and asked to wait for an escort. He threw such a hissy fit that he had to be taken off property by the police. yelling things like I'm not sadam hussain. Sound alot like all you nay sayers to me. I have bought cl on the new features that it has. That is the hair room, cloth room, content paradise and collision dections and things like wind and new renders(for those of you that didn't pay attention. People have no paitience or tolerance any more....poor you with inconvience. Security has been address, they are going to sell your info. Other than that quit whining.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

Oh, just wait till you see what I can do with this and how well it'll animate. Get ready to eat your heart out...

This registration is relatively innocent and not that much of problem in and of itself. It is, however, just part of an overall trend toward which all computing is being steered. Before long, with the system that is the (already publicly admitted) GOAL of M$, you will HAVE to pay EVERY single month in order to use your operating system from M$ (probably around XP v3 or so). If you don't pay them EVERY month, you will be cut off, and totally unable to access any and all of your own files. If you have to pay somebody else to access your own work, who does it really belong to? A lot of the reaction to this protection "scheme" is really a reaction to the overall, rather scary trend toward propritary software manufacturers having complete control over YOU and me and everyone else. Lordy, when the HELL is the Linux community going to get it together so that some version of Linux will run ALL windows programs and people will actually have some choice again?? There are zillions of people who would drop Microslop like a red-hot turd if Linux systems that actually can run everything were available.

Well I'm slightly less concerned about the authorisation, after reading the FAQ...as long as it works as advertised :o) Overall I think it is a fair way of protecting their investment, although like Allen9 I'm very concerned about the trend and where this is all taking us as PAYING CUSTOMERS. As for upgrading?...well not yet;o). Cinema4D XL R8 is being released soon, so that takes priority for me. I'm sure that CL have made certain it will not happen again, but the uproar when PPP was first released with all them bugs has made me a more patient person. P5 is a lot more complex then PPP, so I think I'll be a coward and watch other people pay to beta test it first. I do hope that I'm wrong and putting my order in soon though :o) Cheers

 

Website: The 3D Scene - Returning Soon!

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

YouTube Channel

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

Security, security, that's all I see CL doing. What's wrong with that, we all lock our houses and cars, this aint the 1920's no more. Now Invasion, spying, and manipulation, that's different and that's why I won't go to WinXP no matter how stable others say it is. CL has my vote and I will definatly be buying (just looks like I'll have to wait till next year - SO YOU ALL BETTER LEAVE A COPY LEFT ON THE SELF FOR ME, YA HEAR!!)

Ah yes, Dot Net looms above us. M$ has always wanted it all hasn't it. HOWEVER I still don't equate CL with M$...not even close. CL is actually part of the community in maintains with it's software.(thank you) M$ would probably have us all killed if given half a chance. As the only company that has done something the drippings of Metacreations run off, I must say I love you guys. There arn't that many companies that get this involved, in fact I can only name one other.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

but Renderosty's slowness is catching me out, with "timeouts" every time I post ;o/

 

Website: The 3D Scene - Returning Soon!

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

YouTube Channel

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

Guys' don't forget the node-based material shaders. that may be the stelth feature that makes this version of poser a must have for illustrators. I didn't get this feature at first but after reading over the manual a couple times I want this more then almost anything else. look at the skin node for example, adjustable translucency! the reason I suppport CLs registration scheme is Photoshop does anyone wonder why the most popular and widely used graphics program costs 800 dollars and adobe has miserable margins? casual pirates! I know dozens of people who have photoshop on their computers and and none of them paid anything for their copys in fact several offered to load their copys onto my computer suplying the password that was supplied to them. I cant afford to buy the retail version of Photoshop but I'm quite happy with my $89 PSP7 I turned them down. these people didn't buy cracked versions most of them wouldn't know where to look or would be too nervous of downloading a virus instead of a crack. CL is not doing anything that most other software companies won't be forced into doing in the near future.

Would be nice to be able to buy it. I pre ordered like a bunch of folks here. Just now got an email saying they can't ship it to a P.O. box. I ordered it using my address at my house. So what is up? I am ready to cancel and just say to hell with it, too much of a hassle. Sent them an email back with the info, but it will probably put me at the bottom of the list. Tried to order it next day when I did the pre-order and their site was screwed up and could only take regular ground shipping. I think I'm done, don't need it that damn bad. Marque

No software company will be FORCED into doing stuff like all the invasion and spyware in XP (and much much more in future versions). There are other ways to go that don't ASSUME that every single user is a likely thief. As I said, this particular protection scheme by CL is NOT the main reason people are unhappy - it's just a symptom of an overall trend that makes many people very VERY nervous. A trend that does not HAVE to happen, unless complacent people let it. I am among the many who will NEVER own a computer with XP on it, nor will I sign over full ownership of everything I ever create to some greedy software company just so I can access my own damn files.

"M$ would probably have us all killed if given half a chance" Now THAT'S a paranoid statement if ever there was one! They wouldn't kill me, they don't have all my money yet. :) As far as P5 goes, I voted with my credit card, pre-ordered even knowing about the protection scheme... Thanx CL!

Yet again, CL is not addressing render farms or efficient use if you are animating. I have asked about this a few times and this is never addressed. The assumption that anyone who wishes to do this is a criminal or pornographer is out of line. It's about meeting needs of the consumer. Hopefully something satisfactory will be worked out before the Mac version comes out.

Ok, well, that FAQ does a very nice job of answering "what" and "how". I still want to know WHY Curious Labs chose a security method that was known to be (in some cases fatally) unpopular in their intended market. Why was this particular method chosen over a number of equally effective methods?

Very Good Question!

Allen - Linux can already run 100% of it's own programs and 80% of all commonly used Microsoft compatible programs, including the entire MS Office suite... Give it 10 months, and it'll run practically all MS-compatible programs. That's a damned sight better than what MS can claim. Also, you missed a great big point - If people get disgusted with paying rent on their computer, they'll vote with their wallets and go get something better. Instead of whining about "oh, when will Linux do this/that", perhaps you ought to get off yer duff and help out a little? After all, Linux is about community, not about carping on some corporation to get things done for you. FyreSpirit: Why? It's simple - they want to protect what they made. /P

bleah - forgot the /u tag... my bad.

FAQ still doesn't say why we should trust them even though they don't trust us. But like the others said it looks like CL can live without my money too. Question is, will this protection scheme have the opposite effect as to what it was intended for.

"It will be helpful for you to describe your reasons for requesting additional Response" I respect that they want to protect the soft but I don't like what I read above. What reason is OK? They should not care!!

Attached Link: http://www.brickhousedigital.com

I pre-ordered it based on the renders and info Kupa posted here. The un-locking method doesn't bother me at all, as I've got nothing to hide. I bought P4 and the Pro-Pack, and feel I've gotten more than my money's worth out of them. P5 is just another evolution for an exceptional product. You should be happy that the software is in the hands of a company who genuinely strive to make a great product. After MetaCreations dumped it's graphics line, Poser had a very questionable future. CL has a lot riding on the success of the product, and if they have to take steps to protect it that aren't favorable to everyone, well... that's a small price to pay to insure that we'll have a Poser 6 some day, and so on. Usually, the loudest whiners are those who wouldn't buy it anyways. -Tempus Fugit

"Oh, just wait till you see what I can do with this and how well it'll animate. Get ready to eat your heart out... " Yah... The 12 people on this forum who actually have the patience to do animation with Poser, are gonna have a ball.

People here sure seem to hate Microsoft. Why is that? I'm pretty happy with the MS products I own. As far as the protection, I still think it would be much more acceptable to buyers if it actually did prevent piracy. In the real world honest people have to go thru hassles because of thieves. Be we put up with it because the thieves have to go thru the hassle too; and are prevented from stealing or even caught stealing. But in the software world, ONLY the honest people get the hassle. The thieves will get a cracked version and go merrily on their way.

"Usually, the loudest whiners are those who wouldn't buy it anyways" Or maybe they are people that actually actively tried to help out CL in the past with fighting warez and are a little less then happy at seeing what the returns are for legitamate users. But I digress, there has been more than enough d*ck swinging on both sides of this matter. Like they say: Arguments on the internet are like participating in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you are still retarded.

Penguinisto, you completely missed my point. Would you care to try again? (Hint: read the whole thing.)

Will it come with French Fries? I like French Fries. If it comes with French Fries, I'll buy it. I just hope the ketchup doesn't slow down my hard drive. Or leave stains in the cloth room. Or make Michael so fat he no longer fits his exotic chainmail warrior g-thong. But most importantly: the French Fries.

"I think the link that kupa posted answers almost everything that people have been concerned about regarding the security measures." I liked this one best: "If you do not have a connection to the Internet, you can contact Curious Labs via email" :-). First draft maybe read "Surely you know someone you can mail your key to and have them send it by email":-). That said, the protection scheme seems pretty much par for the course nowadays with all the warez copying going on between the China Sea and the Volga (folks who have traveled a bit & seen a retail stores full of American and European software for pennies an app know what this system is an attempt to curb), & I'll be ordering P5 tonight:-).

No one denies CL the right to protect their stuff. The hassle may end up being less than we think, time will tell. I didn't want to shell out for a HD until end of the year, but I'm going to try and get one this weekend (I don't live in a town where computer parts can be bought, have to mail order or take a weekend drive to get stuff) Here's one bright side to it all. If the protection works, and the legitimate buyers find themselves exclusively in a community competing with other legitimate buyers, then this could be a plus for the end user. Imagine loosing out on a contest, etc, to someone who has a warez version. Right now anyone can throw out art in P3 cuz I think that was finally made available on a magazine some time ago. Almost anyone can throw out art made in Poser cuz if you don't have it, some guy in Russia probably has a free crack download. Not anyone can throw out P5 art, cuz not anyone can get it. Only those who choose to make the investment. I believe that if this scheme works, the community will be better off. Our investments will be protected. The software will have value. If the scheme fails, then I don't want to be hassling with it any more and I hope CL will release a patch that bypasses it. So don't worry, be happy. Have another Corona. Oh, as for some of the other comments, CL has been active in this community and shown that they do care. The upgrade pricing is a blessing. I see a good wholsome company in their professional and timely responses. Grouchy as I may be from time to time, CL does get my vote of confidence. As for CL going down in the future, well, all things are possible, but I for one think that P5 can vault them into a more pro arena and that only means future success.

"Haven't you read the feature list and the discussions concerning P5 ???
The library system is one of many new improvements...
How about the ability to develop hair.
The fact Pro PAck is integrated into P5...for those that did not buy PP..they now have it...minus the plugins-, but they're on the way.
Face Room...use photos, face sculpting, etc etc
the new renderer--hybrid micro-polygon and Ray Trace render engine with subdivision surface rendering of polygons.
Dynamic Cloth..."

Dave, stop. I'm getting excited. :) Mine won't be here till next week sometime.

...... Kendra

Quote by Allen9 -

"Lordy, when the HELL is the Linux community going to get it together so that some version of Linux will run ALL windows programs and people will actually have some choice again?? There are zillions of people who would drop Microslop like a red-hot turd if Linux systems that actually can run everything were available."

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

Okay...that's all I had to say. :oP

For those of you who are buying, shouldn't you be reading your P5 manual!?! For those that are not, no amount of discussion is going to change anything. Get over it.

I've had at least a dozen different security schemes used for differing programs. Everything from a doggle that attached to the printer port, to red glasses to pick out an image on a piece of paper, to looking for a specific work in a manual every time I used a piece of software. They all worked. They all had their problems. I just don't care anymore. It'll work for me. If I have to move it to another computer, I can regegister, or if that proves impossible, I'll just move the whole application and settings (nice to be a programmer). Or someone will crack it, they always do. The security method really isn't that important. And porting it to Linux will still require the same security. If you don't like the system, don't buy it and do without. CL is coming out with a great product, and whatever conditions they have, I chose to live with. I know this is an emotional issue for some people. I respect that. But we keep making the same points over and over again. If you don't like the method, let CL know via email, and don't spend your dollars. If enough people don't buy because of the method, it'll get changed. I've already spent my cash, and I want P5 NOW! I'm looking forward to what I think is the next big topic here: "OH MY GOD! SEE WHAT I DID IN P5! - Ain't this NEAT!"

pdxjims has kinda "said it all." And I agree. Thnx pdxjims. ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Oh I agree with pdxjims too. Just to clarify...my previous AMEN was directed entirely at Windows. Nothing to do with P5 at all. I am camping on my porch waiting on my copy. LOL! ;o)

It's a hundred times easier to smash a lock than to build a lock. The Warez kiddies will crack whatever copy protection made, and spread the cracked version of it around. It was probably cracked the day went gold, and on every Warez site the day after. I don't think Warez is as big a concern as these are people that wouldn't have bought it anyways. The only real concern are people that legally buy a product and then burn a copy for all their friends the low tech way. I know a CD can be made so that it cannot be copied correctly. My dad went to burn me a copy of a game, and the copy didn't work, so I went out and bought it. Something like that is perfect because it stops us non hackers and forces us to buy it if we want it.

LOL@ Nikita! Worry not, ma'am... as soon as enough people bug Kupa to port it to Linux, it may happen. There's already a Linux-based compositor now called Shake that works a lot like Poser. Only difference is, Shake costs a zillion bucks and is used in the high-end market; it's also more heavily geared towards animation than stills. And yeah, it has a protection scheme too, if the article in Linux Journal is any indication.

pdxjims is right - doesn't matter what OS they port it to, warez is warez, and proprietary stuff will always need some sort of protection scheme to keep the casual warez kittens at bay.

Incidentally, for those who are wondering, the one and only reason you don't see Linux warez all that much is because you can already go get the source code to damned near every Linux product out there and compile the thing yourself. The GNU General Public License is the absolute best anti-warezing tool I've ever seen.

FyreSpiryt: I read tyour whole post... and the point still remains - CL wants to protect their copyright, which is the "why" of it all... They know that it won't stop it all, but it will make things harder to warez out.

Case in point would be Adobe Illustrator... there has only been one warezed version I've seen, and the readme for it states that the only way you can make it work is to turn your CMOS clock back to 2001 or some noise.

Also, like I've said before, protection schemes are common in 3D software in the mid-to-high end. I'm suprised CL hasn't done this earlier.

/P

What if the first "cracked" version of Poser 5 sends kiddy porn to the FBI?

Try to explain that.

Just food for thought.

I pre ordered the real thing, and it's been shipped.

What if the first "reverse engineered" version of a digital camera sent kiddy porn to the FBI? Hmmmmmmmmmm???????????????????????????????????????????? Cameras and (Poser) software don't create pornography, ............ people do! It's kinda like: guns fire cameras "art" etc. They can either be used for ... good ... or for evil, n'est pas? Just some additional food for thought. I, also, pre ordered the real thing, and it's been shipped. HOO-RAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! cheers, dr geep ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

I think he was trying to say something to the lurking warez kittens something along the lines of "what if the warez version of P5 is trojaned?" Then again, it is legal to take your own products, and release semi-trojaned and crippled versions of it on P2P services (within reason), yes? /P

Geep, I'm sure yours is in the mail. grin So is mine! I'm not wild about this protection system. I have two computers and a laptop. Only one computer is on the Net. There others aren't set up yet for Net access. I'd like to have Poser5 on all my machines. I'll find a way, I guess somehow (calling for Codes for the machines not on the Net) to have Poser on all my machines. Liz Pope Dreamspinner

Hi Liz, I am sure everything in this department will get sorted out in due time. cheers, dr geep ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Geep, I hope so because the more powerful machine I have is not on the Net. I'm waiting until I can afford a second phone line and DSL for that one. Not even sure this machine that is on the Net can handle Poser5, but I'm gonna try. wink Liz Pope Dreamspinner

Thanks Penguinisto, That's what I was trying to say. Software that has been hacked is nothing to play around with.

RoyG, didn't you see meska's posts some time ago about censorship and the comments about Aschroft v. Free Speech? The old federal code was that all kiddie porn was criminal. The Sup Ct said the law was overreaching and required a carving out of exceptions for virtual images, no matter how graphic or abused they were. The new code trashed the Sup. Ct. and merely allowed a defense to criminal prosecution if you could convince a judge or jury that your kiddie porn was all virtual. Give it time, the Sup Ct will overturn the new code. Bottom line, people will abuse things, be it a gun, an automobile, a camera, or a computer program. The makers of the guns, cars, cameras, and computers are not to be blamed for the abuse of the folks who really ought to be in jail.

"We did respond, in a thread that was open and not heated. " What thread, Coop? Btw... your FAQ link is coming up php errors.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

::sighs:: Pen, I'll try again. I'll even use small words this time. There are lots of ways for CL to protect what they made. I would like to know why they chose the one that they knew makes people mad over all of the rest. There. Only two multi-syllable words. :P

Yup, Ditto on the errors... I've pre-ordered in Germany, so I guess I'll be getting mine a week or so later than the rest of you :( Do I like M$, no, I'm a UNIX admin, (even when it was the last clean T-shirt I had, I couldn't bring myself to wear my "free" pre-order Xbox T-shirt) do I run XP, yes, on both my laptop and desktop, do I have licences for both, yes, did I register either, no. My desktop is running a "select" install from work, comes pre-registered, because companies rolling out 200-2000 seats aren't going to get on the phone for each one. My laptop is runing a hack, it permanantly thinks it's day one of my 30 day "trial" period. I may at some point convert the laptop to QNX, (which I also have a license for, though I have the "free" version too :) I needed XP for Poser, when my laptop was my main machine, now it's my 'net access box, virus checking everything, and burning to CD for transport is a good discipline. So my desktop will remain unwired. When I get home and retieve my QNX license from the '486 it's on (it's "node locked", you can only install it once.) then I'll make the choice, last time I tried to install Mandrake on my laptop, it all installed OK but refused to boot... Personally I don't think Linux will ever take over the desktop, it's just too hard to master, has too many options and asumes too much knowledge on the part of the user. In the server space it's killing UNIX, and colonising some space that M$ would like to own. But desktop? Nah, unless it looks like Redmond, feels like Redmond, and (most crucially) offers simple data interoperablity, (ever tried to edit a recent Word doc? Access database? Excell spreadsheet?)like Redmond, It simply isn't going to cut it with most "ordinary" people, Journalists and IT Pro's possibly, but "Joe Pleb?" Hardly. It's got a great browser in Mozilla 1.1 but does it work with bulk of sites designed to work with IE5/6? The web is client/server, so if you can't view a page, it's a client side, not a server side issue. I don't think CL are M$ (though they'd be dumb not to want to be) I also don't think that no matter how much we scream and shout, they'll change thier minds and give us unfettered access to the software we've just bought the right to use. I can't read the article kupa posts at the top of this page, but I read elswhere in this forum an analogy to cars, would you leave yours unlocked? Why not? etc. I think that's a bad analogy and here's why: the prevalence and availability of global P2P sharing networks. In essence, it's far easier and quicker to distribute a hack to defeat the protection system, (especially if the hack will fit on a floppy) than it is to hack & package the entire CD. It's far easier to get a legit CD, or a copy of a legit CD, install it, then apply the hack. Anyone who has grown up with computers, as I have, over the last 15 years, will be able to locate a hack for any given program in a matter of hours, if not minutes. Most teenagers I know of don't have DSL, but if you're only downloading <1.44Mb then dialup will do fine... I say teenagers, because that's the euphamish most often used, copy protection cuts down on "playground copying" which may have been true in my day, but we had to copy tapes, not CD's and we had no access to the internet. If you applied the reality of P2P to the car analogy you might come up with the following question: "knowing that anyone who wants to, can make a key to your car, why do you continue to leave it out in the street?" The flaw in the analogy is of course that of a finite resource, there is only one car. So how about this: "knowing that anyone who wants to can make a copy of your car without your knowledge, why do you continue to leave it out on the street?" CL have thier reasons for adding protection software, they may or may not be transparent to us. Most software companies don't speak to thier customers at all, certainly not in the informal way they do here. I find it hard to believe that if Adobe added a dongle to Photoshop tomorrow, that anything would change. It would still be widely pirated, dongle or no. I'll register my first install, after that I'll rely on the inevitable crack, of course "content paradise" may check and block you as M$ are thinking of doing to chipped Xbox's on Xbox Live! (as the supplemental EULA shows) but I imagine it will be available from the web too, and if that becomes an issue, I'll just use it from work... This is a non-issue, don't like it? Don't buy it, don't bitch about it. later jb

FyreSpiryt said: "There are lots of ways for CL to protect what they made. I would like to know why they chose the one that they knew makes people mad over all of the rest." If you think that would make folks mad, perhaps you should see what happens when folks realize they have to keep track of a hardware dongle (Ford Motor company was notorious for that on their dealership network PC's), or realize that the 'copy-protected' CD won't work in their off-generic brand of CD-ROM (which is a useless scheme anyhow). If there's a method they could've used that was at least as effective, without pissing as many people off, I'd like to know what it is. As it is, I doubt that no more than a handful of folks, most of whom have already posted, will even care about 'activation'... after all, Windows XP sales haven't slowed down by much. Praxis 22 said: "My desktop is running a "select" install from work, comes pre-registered, because companies rolling out 200-2000 seats aren't going to get on the phone for each one. My laptop is runing a hack, it permanantly thinks it's day one of my 30 day "trial" period." You realize you've violated the Microsoft Windows XP EULA in the latter instance, yes? Reverse engineering and hacks to the protection scheme are no different from 'cracks' that disable CD Keys, whether you own a legit copy or not. Also, I am aware of the Select versions, but I am also aware that unless you have signed permission from your employer to take a copy home and install it, you're technically pirating that home (not the laptop) copy of XP. But if that machine is at work and is part of your job, then I misunderstood, and I apologize for that misunderstanding. "Nah, unless it looks like Redmond, feels like Redmond, and (most crucially) offers simple data interoperablity, (ever tried to edit a recent Word doc? Access database? Excell spreadsheet?)" Actually, yes - I do so every workday, and in my Linux partition. I use Open Office mostly, but Star Office does the job too. OO is free for the download: http://www.openoffice.org For those who still want to use MS Office, you can pop in Codeweavers' WINE plugin and use the original MS Office prducts in Linux, including MS Viru^H^H^H^HOutlook. ;) It'll fall within Joe Sixpack's reach soon enough, I can promise you that. "I find it hard to believe that if Adobe added a dongle to Photoshop tomorrow, that anything would change. " I agree perfectly - after all, 3DS Max has a warez version. OTOH, I've recently had to fix a computer that had that warezed version on it - the problem was that his 2.2 GHz / 1GB RAM machine was running slower than a 486 even after he shut 3DS Max off... turns out that the print spool in Windows sucked down nearly all his CPU power in fooling the hardware protection scheme in 3DS, and continued to run as a seperate proggie after 3DS was shut off (3DS Max' dongle plugs into the parport.) So yeah, the dongle can be foiled, but look at what you have to give up to run a dongle-cracked copy. Nothing's perfect, but then again, using cracks to get around stuff is not much better than just going to Morpheus and downloading the thing IMHO. It does you nor the company any good.

From what I have seen so far I cant say that Poser 5 makes better models, presumed you have Vicki. When Im wrong Ill get it without caring about protection and all.

as a famous ad campagn goes poser5 doesn't make better models Poser5 makes models better. firefly render engine with subdivision of surface polygons will do that. strand based hair will do that. node based material shaders will do that. displacement mapping will definately do that. as you said you'll believe it when you see it. I'm betting it wont be so long before you see it. :)

I have no idea what all this means, but I cant wait to know.

many of these things do not presently translate to other programs so if you render exclusively in bryce say, then no the p5 upgrades won't make your present figures better. but if you render in Poser there's no doubt they'll even make your High rez figures look better. for example displacement mapping is a much more realistic version of bump mapping where the map actualy does deform the skin causing lighting to model textures much more accurately. subdivision of surface poygons will make any curved surface smoother, in effect creating more polygons. the firefly renderer will put reflections on objects rather then using a texture map to simulate them. Node based shaders will allow a flexability of textures, layers, translucency, previously unavailable in a consumer level product (by consumer level I mean a program that costs less then the computer it's run on)

Thanks wdupre! Now I can imagine a bit what will happen. Actually my message was meant as '...cant wait to see', because Im an eye-consumer and it were the pics here in the gallery which made me buy Poser 4. Sounds good since I only have Poser and in the past it was not always obvious what was rendered in Bryce and what in Poser. Are there any pics to judge already? Those which I saw were at Runtime DNA and I could not see much difference.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=834875

there's nothing that shows all these features yet but the ruby tuesday thread I've linkde to above has a reflection/refraction picture that definately could not have been produced in P4, it's down at message 31 of the thread.

I see; the spheres look great, but her...its a matter of taste. For me will be important how much the new render styles improve the model. Im not an artist, I have Poser for doing pin-up-style pics. Cherchez la femme!

Ah yes, nekid women :) Infinate variety, etc. :P Peng, Don't get me wrong, I hate M$ and I use thier software grudgingly for the most part, I also decry much of it as crap. Like the new XP service pack, wont install on my machine, it's my work box, so appart from a batch of M$ patches, and the fact that it's hooked into the file servers for secure logon, it's as standard as they come. But the new patch gets around 3 seconds into the install proper: "do you wish to backup the old files?" then it closes the installer window and pops up a helpfull little box saying "the install has been canceled" [OK] So I closed everything down, even Norton and it does the same thing. Drop into safe mode, where the secure logon wont let me logon as me as it can't fine the domain server, and it won't let me logon as administrator because it says the password is wrong, which is bullshit, since it the same pasword I use everywhere... Reset password, try again, same response. Argh!!! But even after that, I still don't think that Linux will "break" the desktop as it doesn't come as one install, you have to add wine, add openoffice, etc. But you're expecting people who buy from Wal*Mart to be savy enough to use this. They don't care if a file is OGG or MP3, they want thier MTV. They want to play PC games, they want a browser that works with everything, an OS that does it all for them. Linux doesn't do that, it's UNIX, the antithesis of "point & click" I've worked in computer shops, people buy what their mates tell them to, even against your advice, then bring it back and complain that it doesn't work... Linux is good, it's a geek's OS, but that's the point. XP is a users OS, it makes all your choices for you, looks cool, has whizzy little features that people like regardless of how much privacy they have to give up, knowingly or not. Now I've never connected a printer to Linux, but if it's anything like Solaris, then it's going to be no picnic for Joe Sixpack. Then of course there is the problem of internet access, last time I looked you had to configure PPP into the kernel, then hope it works, whereas on XP, you simply type your username and password into the box and press "connect" and it does it all for you. When Linux can do this, it won't be Linux anymore. Meanwhile X-box hackers are jumpstarting SUSE onto the drives of unsuspecting games consoles, up to thier elbows in cables and solder, and loving every minute of it. It's a different world, and never the twain shall meet. I'd love Linux to take the desktop, put "the Man" out of business, "in a world without fences, who needs Gates?" :) But with the best will in the world it isn't going to happen, because there will never be "just one distro" and our world would be a lot poorer for it if there were. What I'm doing at home may be bending the rules a little, but if they come knocking I can show them the licences, show them the CD's, It may not strictly match the EULA, but then neither does running one copy of poser on 2 PC's, and a fair number of users here do that. I'm of the opinion that once they have your money thay stop being interested in you, except when it comes time to upgrade. A smart company will make sure you're happy with your product, because reviews and word of mouth sell far more than advertising. But business is business. later jb

[[Also, you missed a great big point - If people get disgusted with paying rent on their computer, they'll vote with their wallets and go get something better. Instead of whining about "oh, when will Linux do this/that", perhaps you ought to get off yer duff and help out a little? After all, Linux is about community, not about carping on some corporation to get things done for you. ]] HOW will they "vote with their wallets" if there is NO other operating system available for PC's that will run all the programs they want to use???? M$ is certainly working very hard to keep everyone out of the market so they can use their monopoly status to FORCE people to play it their way. It's been pretty obvious that their strategy is to 'slowly' shift to the pay-by-month approach, bit by bit by bit, so once it's fully in place, the 'general run' of users will be 'used to it' and won't realize what they've signed away until some month comes when they forget to pay on time and get cut off from all their own files, by which time it will be way too late to do anything about it except pay up - and once they've got everyone trapped into the system, you can absolutely COUNT on those monthly fees increasing quite regularly. As far as "getting off my duff" - I am NOT a programmer in ANY form. Since it is totally unrealistic to try to ditch all my other interests and work, and spend the next several years doing nothing but learning how to program - there's not a damn thing I CAN do to help except be ready to buy Linux-ported software IF and when it becomes available, and IF and when Linux comes in a form that laymen/non-programmers can use, be ready to instantly convert to it.

I am NOT a programmer in ANY form You don't need to be. The community at large badly need folks who can: * Write documentation and man pages for specific programs * Write HOWTOs to explain it all in Layman's terms * Translate documents from their original language (usually English, but sometimes French or German or...? ) into other languages you may know. * Test software for functionality - send in bug reports. * If you know how to use it, teach others who are interested in using it. " if there is NO other operating system available for PC's that will run all the programs they want to use????" Huh? Like what? New programs and ports appear daily allowing more and more MS proggies to run in Linux, or programs that can replace/eclipse other MS programs (example: GIMP replaces Photoshop and uses P-shop brushes)... I can already run the entire MS Office Suite in Linux right now. Mojoworld has a Linux version. Maya has a Linux version, and is their best selling port among the industrial 'render-farm' animators like Dreamworks and ILM.

Well, scratch one hack :) I got paranoid, (and a little over zealous :) while trying to remove the GUID from Mediaplay, I reomved what I thought was the mediaplayer # no from the registry only to find out that it was the windows # no, so the bloody thing wouldn't boot any more without requesting I re-register, then falling over... :) Bugger! :) So now the laptop is running the select copy as well, though the good thing is that it will now run the 131Mb SP1, which once I'd got past the "you have 200Mb of a 2Gb disk left" problem that I always have upon re-install of XP... actually gave me more space back than it used, wierd! :P Now if only this bloody sparcstation would play ball I could go home... Oh yeah, check /. they have a link to "Amiga/C=64 radio" V. cool I'm getting all misty eyed with the pitch bends :) later jb