CL, Sitting in the dark here with no end in sight is making folks a bit punchy. Would it be possible to get a status report? What's in the works for bug fixes, content cd updates, etc. What's a reasonable time to expect a patch, what will it fix, kinda thing?

"Sitting in the dark..." Everything is nice in the dark... Vieth proverb

They either all knew it was coming and have skipped off with the loot to the West Indies.......or They are all frantically trying to work out what on earth has gone wrong....... Or they're running round like headless chicken's shouting 'what do we do kupa?'....or.....or............ What do we do Kupa? speak to us.....there's a head o steam building here if I'm reading the runes. My mind of course is open and clear of preconcieved ideas (my copy hasn't even arrived yet so I should probably belt up) but there seem to be a lot of folk out there having a lot of problems..and my excitement is turning to apprehension.

My kid worked for a software developer firm..small..similar to CL...they busted but working many late hours leading up to the release of their newest gem.... When it went out the door, so did the staff...they were so tired they needed a break.....so....perhaps the same with CL...they probably deserve it.... HOWEVER....but I think the issues we're seeing are going to take a bit to fix.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

You're probably right Dave-So..they're probably exhausted_ and it may well be that a measured and methodical prioritising of the 'need to fix' list is going to be better for us all in the long run. And I guess all Kupa will be able to offer at present is placatory words_ when it comes to the crunch it'll be the hard pressed programmers who'll have to deliver.

We are currently working on a list of known critical bugs and fixes that will be addressed in an updater. This updater will include stability fixes, functionality fixes and content fixes. We are targeting releasing this updater in a matter of weeks. I'm sorry that there is a need for a patch so soon into the release. Steve Cooper Curious Labs

Good to know you react so quickly ! Rome wasn't build in 1 day after all! Laurent, Paris "Bad english and all faults are copyrighted ABLC..."

I'm with my fellow European on this one. There's always a patch, we expect a patch, patches are part of Poser life. From what I've read, the animators are still going to be 5th heaven...

in 5th heaven...

If you knew about the bugs, then why didn't you fix them before it was released? Mike

Mike, who said he knew about the bugs BEFORE it was released? What he said was they're compiling a list of bugs that they NOW know about and hopefully they'll be fixed. They're probably having a hard time seperating reports of GENUINE bugs from gripes, bitches, slams and generally nasty responses from disgruntled users who've jumped the gun and decided that P5 "doesn't work." Which is too bad, really because I think P5 has gotten a bad rap. I think its a pretty good piece of software. --jjsemp

Egaeus, Good question. Some of the P5 bugs turned up after the CD was handed off to duplication, my content bugs for instance. Some showed up at the last moment, and had to be deemed non-critical, and slated for this update. And some are just puzzling. Jackson and Casamerica, my sincere apologies to you both, are having a very rough time, and this doesn't seem typical across the board, so there is some issue that is unique that we need to figure out. My hope is that they are also working are communicating with tech support so we can get copies of their bad files, details about the hardware, to try and figure out what the nature of their specific problems. On a personal note, a number of us at Curious Labs worked for many months without pay to bring Poser 5 to market. There is a finite time that I or any of the others that contributed time without pay to the project, we have bills to pay, need to put food on the table, etc. and sadly that finite time was reached just before the release. There wasnt much flexibility. It may seem that weve been working on Poser 5 for the last three years. That hasnt been the case, there have been very difficult challenges along the way. Ill go into detail on that later. Steve Cooper Curious Labs

Why don't you tell us wich bugs will be corrected first ? That will allow us to focus on other part of P5. Laurent, Paris

I don't have a complete list but should by next week. Kupa

Steve, can you do anything about the Modeless Dialog problems in P5. I can understand some dialogs being Modeless like the material nodes etc. But when Poser asks for a file I should not be able to click on other controls till that dialog is cleared. This is extremely evident in P4 with the materials dialog. I can bring up the old dialog, click on the button for selecting a texture. The open file dialog appears. I can then click again on the texture open button and get another open dialog. Other people have reported this error in P5. One of the huge problems I see and one of the biggest reasons for percieved lock ups is when a user gets a dialog prompt, clicks on a button but that event is passed down to a lower dialog which also clicks on a control or changes a setting. This obviously puts P5 in a bind since it has a dialog open yet gets another command to do something else. Now I don't know if it was your intention to have P5 be multitasking ie we can set materials while rendering etc. but, if its not then please think about changing the UI so it is not all Modeless, especially for prompt boxes. I know it also an issue with OS. I have 2k, xp and 98 boxes and it does this on all 3 platforms.

I would like to thank Kupa for his calmness, consideration and devotion. To paraphrase someone or other, adversity doesn't create character, it reveals it. It seems a measure of the man that despite all of the ranting, raving, screaming, kicking and crying going on -- some of it justified, some not -- he has retained his dignity, his composure, and his class. Kupa, I don't know you personally, and probably never will -- but thank you.

Doh,

Kupa..placatory words maybe BUT well done for stepping in to the maelstrom (spelling?!. why no spell-checker in Rosity_ you guys!!)Its good to hear you are all on the case (and at least you aren't in the West Indies yet) We are an impatient bunch and perhaps we should be more patient than we are, but its all down to the excitement that's developed over the last few months_some of it CL induced. If its helped the cash flow to get this out before it was really ready fine (and thanks for being honest about that) but you do need to deliver.. things are obviously running pretty close to the wire over there. I for one am confident that you can get it sorted and make this an unparralled piece of software. Keep talking .. keep us on board. cheers

I applaud you for the effort! I know how hard it is to come out with such an excellent program. Keep up the good work. Ron

Please work on the morphs first, this is really disappointing. Marque continues to hand out the virtual valium, but no one at CL gets any, we want them to be sharp! lol Marque

Kupa, you really disapoint me! You mean CL couldn't test every possible user action on every possible platform with every possible OS and every possible software combination?!?!?! :) I don't see how anyone could have realistically expected perfection on this first release, look forward to the updater, and think you folks are doing great! (My only dissapointment is that it seems "Airborne Express" is neither...)

Kupa......I love it....even with the bugs.....I am having a great time experimenting. Sharen

By the time the bug fixes get out, I'll barely have finished learning the great Hair room. We all knew there'd be bugs. There are always bugs in every product. Some worse than others. CL definitly ISN'T the worst. Kupa's fairly quick response, and the promise of a list of known bugs and the priority of fixing them is a LOT better than MicroSquish or Corel (not to name names). Although I DO wish the Daz Millenium people were fully compatable with P5... (this gripe will continue until someone comes out with a really good P5 compatable set of figures - male first please).

I really love P5, the problems will be worked out I feel and we will be just getting used to some of the great features....I am still busy testing this and that. I need more memory I discovered and I think that once I get that hardware upgrade things will go easier. I am learning a lot about the program but I love it!!! Thanks to everyone at CL hope you make lots of dollars to make all the hard work worthwhile....and the whinning too....:-)...but we whine because we love Poser!...

Steve, Apology accepted. I can understand problems with the new stuff and the rush and all, if you haven't been working on it all this time. But, honestly, it's pretty difficult to dismiss the fact that P4 bugs are still in P5. By the way, it might help PR some if you'd mention how smoothly casamerica's registration went!

Forgot to mention, Steve, that--even though I accept your apology--I'm still gonna poke fun. Hope you don't mind.

Jackson, That was priceless. :-) If I were to add one thing- "yes, casamerica's registration did go very smoothly" I understand that with a little vodka, even cheez-its can have their moment of glory. Kupa

steve, I think it would be a benefit if you and the folks at CL would tell the folks here the full story of how difficult it has been making this program. Ive tried again and again to say that CL needed some cash, but I dont think it's ever fully registered with them the degree of the necessity. Anyhow, even tho I havent bought p5 yet (but I am going to very soon!) I want to personally thank you and all at CL for your hard work and dedication in getting the program out..even when cash flow was at a bare minimum. How many users here would have such dedication. Methinks that when you have the time, you should post a bit about the struggle somewhere (perhaps your site?) of making p5 a reality. again Thanks! BT

BT, That's my plan as well. It would make for some interesting reading. Kupa

Actually I'll jsut wait for the tell all book.

Jackson and Casamerica, my sincere apologies to you both, are having a very rough time, and this doesn't seem typical across the board, so there is some issue that is unique that we need to figure out. My hope is that they are also working are communicating with tech support so we can get copies of their bad files, details about the hardware, to try and figure out what the nature of their specific problems.<<< Kupa, no apology to me personally needed. I have to say though that many of the problems I have been experiencing are, in fact, being reported by others. They are just doing so in a more coherent and eloquent manner. Additionally, some of the problems I am experiencing - so as P5's refusal to render certain P4 created pz3s - are such that I cannot really send you the files. They contain materials that I purchased from the Marketplace, Daz and elsewhere and I cannot violate their trust. The problem with certain P5 meshes - the P5 business suit coat, for instance - has been reported by others and I will gladly send my copy of the mesh for you to check if it is somehow corrupted. I do not believe it is, however, I did a fresh install on a second machine. Same problem. One thing I have learned in the past four pretty much sleepless days is that the number and severity of crashes, freezes and lockups decline to a certain extent if I initiate my renders from the Pose room rather than elsewhere. I have read nowhere in the manual where this should make a difference, but it apparently does, at least from my POV. Also, and this may be reaching on my part, it just seems that there is a problem with compatibility with pz3s created in P4. Most of my initial testing was done with pz3s created in P4. I still have many of the same problems with original P5 scenes but to a much lesser extent it seems. Finally, am I disappointed? To be honest, yes. However, I was also the kid that was disappointed when the Flash Gordon raygun for Christmas really didn't dematerialize his little sister or the X-Ray glasses really didn't see through Miss Townsend's dress. I have never been one that believes we have to live with "buggy" software. I did not like the remarks from some who stated that the problems we were having were due to our "inexperience" or "inadequate" systems or expecting "too much on the first day." That was and is BS. I know that and I think you know that. There are issues here that disappoint me. I cannot deny that. But it is an imperfect universe. The one thing I know, however, is that you and the crew at Curious Labs are committed to Poser. And as I stated in another thread, I also know that you and your people are more than "just another company." Those sort of statements piss me off as much as the statements blaming P5 problems on the user. You are good people with good hearts. I have not stated that anyone should NOT buy Poser 5. I also stated that I am reserving my final verdict for awhile. You do that when you are dealing with good people. You give them a chance to fulfill their promise. You give them a chance to stand up if they happen to stumble. And contrary to those who state that you and your people are "just another company," I think you and your crew are good people. And I trust you and your people as much as this very, very scarred devil-dog trusts anyone. I've had a bit of fun the past few days and perhaps that fun was too much at your expense. For that, I think maybe I owe you an apology. It was actually an attempt to keep things from getting too damn sullen. I was aware of what you and your people had to go through these past few years to keep Poser in general and Poser 5 in particular alive. I guess I conveniently forgot that in my attempt to keep the mood one floor above doom and gloom among those of us with issues. Anyway, I ramble. Could be the Chez-Its... more likely the gin. I intend to continue to fight with Poser 5... except when the monitor of the system I have it installed on spins on its pedestal - that scares the hell outta me... for a couple of weeks until vacation time. And then nothing computer related goes with me as I spend a few weeks in my version of heaven on Earth - Scotland. Take care and be well. casamerica P.S. - Hey! Did you hear how smooth my registration went? ;-)

Jsut a fast note to Steve and the gang at CL. Despite the bugs (and there are some... though I am learning to work around them) Poser5 is my "weapon of choice" over P4 from the minute I first installed it. Even as we speak it is int he background, pounding out a production render for professional use... and I wouldn't go back to P4 if you came here with a stick and threatened me. Good job! Take the weekend to relax. We'll play with the hair room and so on and then on Monday you can work ont he patch. Enjoy :)

Sure hope sales have been enough to pay all those dedicated poser5 workers back. I've worked for free a couple times in my life from devotion to a cause or concern and friendship for an employer. I never got paid back, but had a sense of fulfillment from it, but then, I didn't have family to worry about. So hope ya'll got paid back. Did you?

Casamerica, did you connect with tech support? Even if you can't share the files, it would be good to take a closer look at what your problem is. It sounds like a rendering issue, not as in it being slow, but happening at all. I'm really concerned about this issue. If there is some kind of similarity with others that you're seeing regarding system set-up, hardware, some common troublesome files that we could purchase, etc. please let us know, you'd help us understand and ultimately help to fix this issue.

Hi mr. kupa :) Because you're here,(isn't that grammatically incorrect to start a sentence with that word?), I have to surmise you managed to hold off the bill collectors, and get fed.... however, as much as I love you guys...and think Poser is just wonderful, and Poser 5 WILL become a great application...i truly am a bit POd that you guys released this in the shape it is in, especially now that I know you guys knew about some of the bugs, which I felt hard to believe you didn't anyway..considering the extent to which they have become apparent. Its great you're going to fix them, but I think you telling us that is a bit underwhelming...I would expect you to fix it and pretty darn fast......it shouldn't have happened in the first place..you should be happy a bunch of us haven't returned this product. I think it has caused a few folks to hold back on purchasing it as it is. You couldn't get a bit of a loan or something to see it through to a proper completion? You probably could have taken up a collection from all us and saved the day..we're all such dedicated customers...I'm serious here...I'm sure we could have become investors in your venture, and would have been happy with a strong, useable product straight away as a return on our capital. Here's a bit of my favorite rant--- In my opinion, there are too many people willing to accept software in all sorts of non-working conditions...ACCEPT IT!!! What is wrong with these people? I bet you wouldn't accept a product that didn't work correctly, none of you would...in fact you would return it rather than wait weeks for a fix, while your hard earned money sits idly, not accomplishing anything but acting as a placeholder until the thing is repaired. I return the stuff in a heartbeat...I have no acceptance of sub-par quality and performance...its out the door and I look elsewhere...I'm a lost customer.....oh well, only 1, the stupid salesman says....oh, another one, the store manager says...as all of a sudden stores are closing all around because the place ain't making so much money any more.... -------------------------------------------------- Now that all sounds pretty darn harsh, and I must have real large conjagas to say this here, or maybe a bit suicidal,...but its how I feel. I'm sure I'll also feel the wrath and get flamed so badly here that my monitor will catch fire, probably get booted right out of Renderosity...that's fine...I probably deserve it for being so open with my thoughts...god forbid we should voice our opinion..even when you know you're going to catch flak... Anyway.... Having gotten that off my chest, (another grammatical error), I still have Poser 5 on my hard drive...why???? Because I know you're a man of your word...Steve Cooper..and I truly love Poser..even P5 with its problems. I have faith in your company...I've been a Poser user since verison 1.0...I know you'll make it all better, and we'll live happily ever after, just like, just like...Romeo and Juliet..or some such... My wife, however, isn't all that happy---she had to clean the blood from my keyboard and pick up the broken shelf, because I hit it so hard, I couldn't open my hands....but that's ok...we have to suffer a bit to really appreciate the product later on...just think how boring it would be to just install this thing and use it right out of the box with no hassles. The fixed product will be such a pleasure to use...it will be orgasmic. OK...I'm ready to take the heat.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

mab, Not yet... at least I started getting a check again though. Kupa

Steve...... Please do explain all of the hurdles you've had to go through just to get where you're at with P5. Nobody belives me. :-) But then again. I didn't exactly give them any specifics either. I didn't know what I should and should not say in public. I sincerely believe that if you open up to the community. Tell them what's going on from day to day. They will back off a bit and not be so harsh to you guys. People will still complain. But it will be different. You will be working side by side with them. Remember the good old days when you guys hung out on the Poser list? The only thing you did differently back then was talk to us more often. But it made all the difference in the world. I realize that you can't talk about things sometimes because of competitors lurking in the shadows. But that doesn't mean you can't shoot the breeze with the community. Or talk about what's working or not working. If not you. Then hopefully someone can be assigned to the task. I sure do miss Ollie who used to run the Poser list. He was a great CL rep. ScottA

oops..make that great Poser rep. Been with you guys a long long time now. too many years to count. ;-)

Dave-so, There would be nothing more satisfying than fully detailing the funding saga here at Curious, but I'll reserve that for the book Mallenlane's waithing for. Why should Anthony have all the fun? We deserve the heat, not you. But what we really want is to figure out how the fix the bugs you're finding and fix them fast. That's a very reasonable request. And I appreciate that there hasn't been an en-masse effort to return product. Last thing in the world we need right now are more of those darned P5 boxes to clog up the halls. ;-) Steve Cooper

I understand Steve.... By the way..as Scott stated above..the invitation is wide open for you to say howdy once in awhile over at the Poser list....the original :) But if you need to hold a hammer over those programmers until the fix comes about...I'll understand you not getting over there for a bit.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

Steve! Just wanted to say thanks for all the blood, sweat and tears that went into Poser 5! I've been having a ball with it, and I know in the future it'll be tuned up into a well-oiled machine. I also appreciate your taking time to give the forum here your personal attention. I've seen a lot of negative reactions, but it's a great new tool, and I've got a lot of enthusiastic exploring to do! -Jeff Whiting Tempus Fugit

Just wanted to jump in with my $0.02 here. I have P5! I haven't done a lot with it yet, but I plan to this weekend. So far I haven't encountered many of the bugs reported by others, but as I said, I haven't done a whole lot. The install went very smoothly, even though I installed to a BUSlink protable hard drive! Net registration and all went well. The program starts and operates from the portable drive well on my desktop, I haven't tried to move it and set it up for use on my laptop yet... I would like to ask that the missing morphs for Don and Judy be released as downloads as soon as possible! It seems to me that there isn't a whole lot of testing that needs to be completed before this, obvious ommission, can and should be corrected. I keep checking the Curious web site, hoping to see the files up there, but no luck yet. As you may discern, the simple act of making these files available, which were supposed to be shipped witht he product anyway, would go a long way to proving your good intentions, to me at least. In all I can't complain of being very disappointed. With software being the "first to buy" has it's risks, no matter how well tested. It's not pleasant or right, but it is a fact. mike

Steve, I agree with most everthing in all the last posts, except the part where you "hold a hammer over those programmers".. As a programmer, I really don't want to establish that as the best way to get the work done... Take the weekend off, kiss the wife/husband, hug the kids, catch some rays (the sun kind, not the Firefly kind), and we'll look forward to hearing from you on Monday.

Kupa and friends,

I have worked with software companies big and small and no one releases software bug-free. All they can do is address as many of the ones they know about as they can before the money runs out. There is eventually a time when the product must ship or die, whatever shape it is in.

I understand that.

The demands of market often call for introducing new features, making it a priority over fixing old bugs people have lived with anyway. It's a tough call, but new features mean revenue. You can't expect people to pay for a bug fix.

I respect that.

When a small company relies on a single product for income and the money's running low, a lot of testing gets rushed. After all, you can't keep testing if you can't pay testers. And real users will ALWAYS find problems that testers missed, use the prodcuts in ways never anticipated.

Totally been there.

It's not unreasonable for a customer to buy a software product and expect it to run as advertised, bug-free. It is, unfortunately, a little unrealistic. Being a little more realistic (cinical), I held off on the upgrade to see what real users had to say. Sort of like waiting for the reviews of "Episode I" rather than standing in line overnight to get tickets for opening day.

I am neither surprised nor disappointed that there are problems. I don't blame CL or hold them to an unfair standard. While many people are rightfully upset with the problems in the software, I don't believe they were caused by sloppiness, apathy, ignorance or greed. I believe you guys did your damndest to put out a damn cool product. While many users are suffering the fate of early adopters, I see the potential for an EXTREMELY compelling upgrade. I'll just wait for that first patch thank you...

So the point of this ramble is... well, my respect and sympathies to the team at CL. I wish more people were aware of what it takes to make software happen. Perhaps you would not get slammed as unfairly. Meanwhile, IMHO, how you respond to the genuine issues your customers have is what will have the lasting impression on the user community. Thank you for your admirable effort so far.

"There is no art without pain." I predict that we'll soon see some gorgeous work! [grin] Bobasaur (I am 7 of 12) -- still working on his 13 charater animated music video using the Poser 4, the Pro Pack and Lightwave on his trusty Mac.

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

Oh please...
I have no respect for CL after this thread and I certainly have no sympathy for them. I do think it's a pretty gutsy move to use sympathy as a way to get people to forgive them for selling them a defective product. What if you bought a brand new car in which the wheel freezes up and you total the car against a tree. You call up the company and they say, "Oh I'm sorry, the engineers didn't get paid, and they said it would probably be okay. We should have a fix for you in a few weeks though." You'd be hopping mad to the point of asking for refunds to sueing for misrepresentation at the least, so why is CL any different???? They sold you what is basically very buggy and in some cases unusable software for $349 and you are thanking them for it???? I'm sorry I don't get it. Is CL even offering refunds or just a promise of a patch in "x" weeks, because lord knows refunds are the enemy of the software industry.

To me, if they truly cared about the legitimate users, CL would have spent some of that "code protection" money on finishing the product and getting known bugs out while still being able to pay their programmers, but it's more important that Billy doesn't use his Poser on two different computers at the same time, then whether it works at all on anyone's computer.

And don't say I know anything about what it takes to make software happen, because I've been in development for over 15 years and I have even been in a similar situation where the company holds the carrot in front of you to get you to stay for your reward. As a developer, no one wants to see a program go south after three years. After three years, you are pretty much exhausted as has been said, but if five weeks means you will get the reward that you were promised, you kinda figure "What's another 5 weeks after 3 years..." Also there is a certain amount of pride in completion, but that pride pretty much gets sucked up when it's released knowing it has all kinds of problems that will have to be fixed later when it's much more difficult. It's even worse when the programmers are pushed to the point of saying, "Whatever, just get it out there so we can pay our mortgage..."

I'll certainly agree that it's impossible for companies to find all the bugs in their software from just beta testing, especially in a world with different video cards, OS versions, CPU's, etc, etc, etc. However, to release a product knowing that it's buggy in order to make a quick buck goes way past shemeful IMO, to this community and the 3d world at large (especially those who are not benefiting from the knowledge gotten from these discussions).

$349 is not an easy price to come up with. To all those that want to hear CL's story of sacrifice, how about the story of those that had to scrape up and sacrifice to be able to buy this lemon??? What about them???

I'm sorry, but I'll be one of the last to buy Poser 5 and given this heartwrenching scenario about how their programmers aren't getting paid and Kupa just now got a check, it wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't a CL in a year. What happens when Poser 5 dies down (or is cracked which is very likely)? They'll be out of business and the buyers will be up a creek without a paddle. Remember, except for these forums, there is no official documentation that says in the event of their demise, there will be a crack furnished to unlock the software for legitimate users.

Sorry Kupa, but all I hear is violins playing in the background...

This is all my opinion...and will probably most likely get me flamed, but someone had to say it...

Thanks Kupa! For a measley $129 upgrade bucks, I've been made a part of a "club" of users who are getting to play with a software package that delivers more power per dollar than anything else out there. Has anybody checked the price of Maya lately? 3D Studio Max? Lightwave? Softimage? I never expected P5 to be perfect right out of the box. I've been consistently delighted with what this program is attempting to be. And I'm glad that Curious Labs is dedicated to keeping this program alive and well. I'm still amazed that P5 even exists. Bugs? Hah! I laugh in the face of bugs! We are soooooooo spoiled. -jjsemp

spoiled?

What ShadowWind said. Pretty damned nicely stated, Shadow.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Shadow and Ironbear,

You are justafiably pissed. I'm not taking that away.

However, some people want to attribute nefarious motives to CL's efforts, or lack thereof. I don't buy that.

From the sound of things, CL shipped a product in a state that would be unacceptible to me, so it is no surprise many other people find it unacceptable. If I had spent the money and had the same problems, I would be extremely pissed myself.

However, I am willing to believe that CL found itself in a ship-or-die situation. It happens. It sucks, but it happens.

This does not make it okay to ship a broken product. No one wants to pay to be a Beta-tester. But it does mean that CL can redeem themselves by fixing the problems ASAP.

If CL shipped with malicious intent, they wouldn't give a rat's ass about fixing anything, because they already got your money. As it is, they are going to need to do a hell of a lot to soothe a pissed off customer base.

Meanwhile, I find it more productive to encourage people to work hard and fix a problem than to call them a bunch of jerks for creating the problem in the first place.

Mind you, sometimes I also find it a lot more satisfying to vent, sometimes quite rudely...

• G

P.S. I agree the protection scheme is bogus.

I doubt my opinion counts for a damn thing, I'm afraid Poser 5 is one of those things I'll not be bothering with at all, for various reasons. Climbing onto the sympathy cart is just tacky, but what the hell, I've got a box of tissues here, I'll give them to whomever wants to cry a river. Well said ShadowWind, amazing someone had the guts to say it. Oh, to all those who are now going to send me hate filled IMs. I care not, Boo! Three years is a long period of grace for any company and a long time to do ... erm... well what have they done? Avatar Lab? No matter the problems or excuses or personal tears. Business is business. Stuff it. Y'all have a fun time weeping along with Mr. Cooper and patting him on the back for, well for whatever. Me? I'm going to go and buy some real software, it might cost more but I expect that, the real bonus is that it will work properly. Have fun.

Hey ShadowWind, I would hope you don't get flamed for what you're saying. Your comments don't deserve it. You paid for your copy, you're entitled to vent. You're being honest. If anybody is getting flamed it's deservedly been us. Check around, it isn't hard to see. We're going to bear responsibility here, and make good. BTW, I'm not sharing background details to get sympathy, I'm just telling the truth about why the product went out the door when it did and how it did. We may not be here in a year, but hopefully we will, the roughest time cashflow-wise is behind us. If we do end up circling the bowl please be the loudest proponent of urging that security unlock update to be made public. I'll back you totally. As for the finances behind it, we certainly wouldn't have invested in security measures if it jeopardized salary. Those license numbers are surprisingly small at our modest application level, and the hardware was an investment we had made in AvLab and ProPack. Questor, I hope at some point this turns around. That's what we'll be trying to do.

Mr. Steve, you have a product you can be proud of. Thank you for your professional attitude and your fine product. You're an honorable man and I for one can't say enough good about you and P5. Thanks.

From the dictionary: spoil v. spoiled, or spoilt (spoilt) spoiling, spoils v. tr. 1. To impair the value or quality of. 2. To damage irreparably; ruin. 3. To impair the completeness, perfection, or unity of; flaw grievously: spoiled the party. 4. To do harm to the character, nature, or attitude of by oversolicitude, overindulgence, or excessive praise. (See Synonyms at "pamper.") Archaic. To plunder; despoil. To take by force. Mabfairyqueen, My use of the word was the fourth definition. I think we have been "overindulged" and we expect too much. Our attitude needs fixing. Spoiled is synonymous with "pampered." Poser 5 is just a little piece of software from a little company that pretty much delivers what its worth. If I'd paid thousands of dollars for it, I'd be pissed. But I didn't. Most of us only paid under $150 for it and that's just about right. And we still have P4 to use if we want, so we're still getting good value out of what we've paid prior to P5. I find it funny when people complain loudly about the software and then reveal that they haven't bought it yet. How weird. But rather than simply continue the arguing, I will offer a constructive suggestion. Why doesn't Curious Labs offer to give people their money back if they're unsatisfied? Then maybe things might quiet down around here. What say you to that, King Kupa? --jjsemp

Car vs software: When you get a piece of software, you click here and there and everywhere playing with it. It hangs up, you start over. A comparable way to learn your new car: take it up as fast as you can and spin the wheel to the right. It crashes, you die. You wouldn't get a car going forward and go from "drive" to "reverse" all of a sudden. I do that with software. If it crashes, I start over. If you can drive one car, you can drive most cars. Knowing one software package helps very little when learning the next. Driving a bicycle will not help you much in driving a car. You pay big $$$ for a car, and bet your life on it's stability. You pay much smaller $$$ for P5, and it crashes, you start over.

IMHO,it probably wasn't a good business decision to mention the financial situation; however, I don't believe that Mr. Cooper was doing anything other than trying to explain the whole picture. I believe that he feels he owes the community a full explanation; and that would include the financial difficulties as well. I tend to think of things in a bottom line approach. So, bottom line: I bought the upgrade, and at least for me it works fairly well. Yes, there are some problems and some things I don't particularly like about the render engine. But I do feel I got my money's worth. If CL can address the bugs and doesn't then I would be very upset; but I haven't seen anything to make me think that this will happen anytime soon, if ever. I for one don't put anyone or any company on a pedastal. But I usually will give the benefit of the doubt when I can. I do feel that CL owes us a fix, but I am willing to trust that this will happen. If it doesn't; well, I did say I feel I got acceptable value for my money.

Mr. Cooper. For the sake of the families of the staff at Curious Labs, those who depend on the salaries for the food on their table I hope it turns around. I hope you really do fix Poser 5 because you didn't fix Poser 4 and as is apparent the two are inseperable except for the third party modules you've included. So, I do wish you luck and success though I have a feeling you're in for an uphill fight. Meanwhile following multiple threads on two forums I've made my decision. I have already decided on the alternative software that I am going to buy and I have made that decision based on industry and user reports. For what it's worth I'm sorry to take my business elsewhere but you never made a lot out of me anyway, except in free support during a couple dark moments. I know I'm not alone in this decision and that hurts your company because every dollar lost is gone for good. My money is limited even allowing that I'm a very tight fisted SOB anyway. And while I do have brand loyalty I'm not blindly loyal. I change brands when I perceive that something is broken, and perhaps strangely I am prepared to pay more. You wanted Poser 5 to be the next step up into the Professional end user market. That much is painfully evident and I can understand the desire for that move. The pricing is about right for a Maya/Softimage plug-in and the module styling of Poser 5 is suited to that manner of production - isolating processes to simplify and speed them - but, industry users don't have time or any desire to frag around with something that costs them money in lost production man-hours. You must have known this, you couldn't have NOT known it. I use Windows, windows in many ways is broken. I put up with that because it's an OS that I can use and is, in the current version, extremely stable. I have removed, instantly, other software that is "buggy". My local games store will attest to that as I've returned many games that are so riddled with bugs they're more an ant's nest than a piece of software. Staples will also attest to my reticence in using broken applications. I don't have the time or patience to bugger around and any store manager that tells me "it'll get fixed in a few weeks/months" will have me writing to his area manager and requesting he be instructed in reality. I don't expect software to work perfectly out of the box but neither do I expect to be driven to distraction by it. So, for what it's worth. Curious Labs still have a dedicated core of fans. Fans who will take anything regardless, because you spend the time here to talk to them. That's good PR and good business. There's a second core of supporters who have wavered but will purchase anyway based on the grounds that you'll "fix it" - even allowing for your history of failing to do that. There's another circle of users outside of that one, and those are the ones you're losing. The lurkers and fussy gits, those who don't want to fight with something to achieve what they want. Those who are sick of starting again and again because something has crashed and trashed the file they were using. Those who quite frankly do not feel they owe you any loyalty because you and your staff like to play in the forums. I have three pieces of software that I use almost continually. Rhino, Bryce and Paint Shop. Neither crash, lock up or cause me as much grief as Poser 4. Trust me, you really don't want to hear some of the things I've had to say about that software. I use(d) Poser because it was quick, simple and easy to use. There used to be vast amounts of free content which was a big bonus to me. But, quite frankly I'm sick to death of it. I'm utterly exhausted with screwing about with Poser's foibles, of suffering lock ups, vanishing content, rsr corruption, pz3 corruption, renders that don't, dials that lock, cursors that disappear a workspace that becomes non-responsive causing a three finger salute to kill poser, and a slew of other problems many related to that damn memory hole - the same one that's probably in Poser 5, the one you didn't fix. So really, what loyalty do I owe you? In all honesty, none. Not being rude but you are in the business to make software and money. I am in the business to have an easy time of my life and have fun relaxing working in CGI - this is just FUN for me, not work, not business, not pretending it pays for my lifestyle, just FUN. And I'm prepared to pay for that fun. I've payed thousands of UKP for my fun over the years. Poser just isn't fun anymore, it hasn't been for nearly two years but I stuck with it and these forums, and as a by-product lent my support to you and others when I felt I should. Because I believed that Poser 5 would be done properly. You know, the funny thing is, if you'd actually taken the time to release a patch for Poser 4 to fix the memory leak and a couple other problems I might just have stuck with you because I would have seen that as a gesture to the customers for their patience and support. shrug My lost dollars aren't much in the big scheme of things, but those silent ones who are also looking elsewhere for their cgi fix are significant. THEY are the ones you have to convince, not me, not the minority of drooling fans or rabid supporters who slap you on the back no matter what you say and do - but the larger, silent majority. They ARE significant. Daz are producing something now. Well, woopdee fraggin' doo. Sorry, but I trust them with my computer about as much as I trust Curious Labs with it. So. Yes, my dollars are going to another company, the software is more expensive than Poser but it offers somewhat more. To be honest I find that rather sad because for all my bitches about Poser 4 I have had a whale of a time playing with it, producing models for it and chatting with the forum members. But frustration has only so much amusement value, and three years is a long time to put up with it when the "new toys, excellent updates and bolt on goodies" are, well... Broken. Good luck Mr. Cooper, to you and all the staff at Curious Labs. I believe you are going to need it. If you are still around in a year, maybe I'll stop by and congratulate you. You'll have earned congratulations and a stiff drink (which I'll pay for) if you survive this release of your software.

It's so weird how people have problems with Poser4. That thing has always been rock solid on any machine I've installed it on. No matter what I do. I can't get it to crash or corrupt any files. And I've really tried. I guess that's one the more reason why we should have better hardware standars. What software are you going to buy Questor? ScottA

Steve, can't speak for anyone else, but I sure got my $129 worth on Poser 5, even though I'm using it on my pitiful PC laptop. You bet I'll be first in line for the Mac version when it's ready (soon as possible, after benefiting from all our PC beta-testing). Sure hope we get that SOHO dual license!?! My frustration this week has been with having to control the urge to experiment with all the features at once, and feeling like a newbie after all these years! Spent the evening with BBEdit, figuring out the new stuff in the file structure, and getting excited all over again about the new possibilities. Thanks for all the hard work!

Yes..what software? Well, I have had numerous problems with P4..crosstalk...no render with anything but the original P4 figures...but I kinda figured the program wasn't built originally for the hires textures and models....so kinda quiet on that.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

It's so weird how people have problems with Poser4. Is it so weird? You were a moderator here Scott, surely you didn't keep your eyes closed all the time? There are hundreds of perfectly valid threads where Poser has eaten something, lost something, locked up or trashed something. There are several forums, with over 100,000 users, if anything is wierd it's that you've NEVER had a problem. No matter what I do. I can't get it to crash or corrupt any files. And I've really tried. I'm usually very very very careful about calling people a liar. But I'm doing it now. Because it's either that or you are calling every person who has had a valid and recognised problem with Poser 4 a liar. The bugs in Poser 4 are known to Curious Labs, they are also well documented in several industry magazines and a couple websites. I believe there is even a thread on this forum from Curious Labs addressing this and explaining why they haven't fixed them. So, you're unique Scott, that must feel good. :) As to what software I'm going to buy. You'll find out eventually. This thread belongs to Curious Labs and their explanation of process to repair their software. I refuse to help you derail it by discussing competitive software.

I would like to join in the applause of Kupa. He knows that there are bugs, and he isn't hiding. He could avoid these forums as most software management officials do, and answer (or not) through the voice of his tech department. The title of this thread by PabloS is, appropriately enough, "Courtest Satus Report, Please". You got one, and almost certainly an honest one. Thumbs up.

Umm.......Questor. I said it was weird. I didn't say it wasn't true. The hardware statement was the only thing you didn't quote back. Yet it was the most important thing I said. You OK over there? ScottA

Thank you for your post at No.12 Kupa, it sort of puts things in perspective. Especially re the Challenge Code

in retrospect would it had not been better to have NOT spent time and resources on avatarlab and the shockwave 3D exporter whos actually using those products???

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I think the concept of being mad as hell about software that you don't yet own is weird. It's like a Monty Python routine. I myself am LIVID about the bugs in MAYA -- which I don't own and therefore haven't experienced yet -- and aren't even sure if there are any. Who do they think they are, those Alias/Wavefront people? What were they thinking? Why do they personally insult me this way? I ought to give them a sound thrashing!!! --jjsemp

Lol! Don't poke the bear JJ ;-)

Hrrmmph? wakes up, opens one eye, grins Don't sweat it Scott. I can kick back and watch people lining up going "Mas mierde, por favor" and chuckle. Well... small poke. And an observation: yer right JJ - possibly getting anoyed over problems in software you don't own is wierd... Getting annoyed over watching friends get taken for a ride by cardsharks isn't wierd - it's perfectly understandable. And this isn't even poker - it's 3-Card Monte, and like Questor observed, ya'll are bein sharped. Praise Coop for patches in six months, after you see wether they're delivered or not. Or if you get a song and dance on why not like the thread Questor mentioned. I remember that one too. Anyone can make promises. Look at Bill Clinton. Mas mierde, por favor.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Dear Steve Copper, "We may not be here in a year, but hopefully we will, the roughest time cashflow-wise is behind us. If we do end up circling the bowl please be the loudest proponent of urging that security unlock update to be made public. I'll back you totally." I'm sorry - but this has no legal remifications towards any type of security End-Users of Poser 5 might be able to fall back on incase you do fold. And from information in this thread you are releasing enough indications for most shareholders to start pulling money out of any other company. No wages, admitting your own fears of not being around for a year... The end-users of Poser 5 need more then your backing for them to voice their disapproval. We need legal security that if the worse happens we are not going to be out of pocket... WiNC

"We need legal security that if the worse happens we are not going to be out of pocket..." Maybe I'm missing something here. Do we get that from anyone else? I'm not tring to be a jerk. I just am not aware of too many things in life that come with that kind of guarentee.

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

I'm with scottA on this one. Poser4 /pro pack has been rock solid for me, I can get it to bog right down to a snails pace if I load 30 plus charactors/clothing but lock ups or crashes are extremly rare on both 98 and 2k.Guess it comes down to your system.My Poser5 arrives next week till then I have no opinion on it, I dont like the idea of the registration stuff but CL will get the same load of lies I give every company that demands personal details, no big deal.

Bobasaur - yes in most cases you do get that kinda of guarentee just because of the type of security they use. If you buy almost any other piece of software you get that assurance that if they go bankrupt you will still be able to use their software. The new Activation Protection Scheme removes that security (and no I'm not saying CL is the only company with this issue - however two wrongs don't make a right)... Think about this: You format your C drive, however the Activiation Server and Curious Labs have gone bust. How do you now get to use your software since you can't activate it anymore. Because there is no legal statement in the EULA or anywhere that states that Curious Labs or their owners will supply you with an Activation Removal method - you have no legal standing to force the owners of Curious Labs to allow you to continue using their software. Just because Steve has said he will support you - it means nothing... after all, he will be out of a job... I'm not saying he is a lier, but he might not be in a position to influence anything if they go down the drain. Now to some loss of money will not be much - but for some others you will be looking at anywhere up to a week to two weeks wages. I know I wouldn't like that myself. WiNC

wot if?, wot if?, wot if? Dont count your vultures before they hatch.P5 cost me months wages in my country,if they were to go under, just look at the size of the user base, I'm sure another company would pick it up, my advice .... stop stressing, wot will be will be , deal with it IF it happens. Photo shop7 had a patch out a few months after its realease I dint see a bunch of people getting so excited about the few little probs it adressed and it cost 3 times wot P5 cost. Just relax people,there are much bigger problems in the world right now.

"Getting annoyed over watching friends get taken for a ride by cardsharks isn't wierd - it's perfectly understandable. And this isn't even poker - it's 3-Card Monte, and like Questor observed, ya'll are bein sharped." Hey IronBear, I've always imagined from your previous posts that you're a pretty cool guy, so I do appreciate the concern. And I really DO believe that you're looking out for us. But we ARE grown-ups (except, of course, for Legume ;-) and it's OUR money we're spending, not yours. You don't have to worry about us. We'll be fine. Already, I'm noticing that as the complaining dies down, people are starting to post pictures, ask questions and make discoveries with P5. In other words, things are getting back to normal. Look at some of the newer threads. There really is some fun being had. I'M having fun with it. The thing I like most is that P5 continues the fine tradition of trying to make a funky little program do things it was never supposed to do. Speaking of which, there's this guy who's making an entire film using Ray Dream Studio 5, a defunct program (go to "www.rustboy.com" to see the amazing results). He doesn't want to upgrade to Carrara or anything else. Part of the challenge for him is using one imperfect package and pushing it to its limits. To my thinking, that's always been the deal with Poser, too. That's why I was drawn to Poser and to this forum in the first place. All the other high-end packages just give me a headache. Who needs perfection? --jjsemp

Well thats it then, if the Windoze versions can't stand up, and need fixing with an exhausted programming team, we Mac users don't stand a chance in hell of a Poser 5, let alone a stable one!!! :/ ProPack forwever it would seem! - or until Daz release their software anyway! ;)

Adam Benton | www.kromekat.com

Attached Link: http://www.curiouslabs.com/article/archive/65/

Questor:

use the link to go to CL's download site, the P4.03 memory fix is at the bottom of the page.

Poser hasn't crashed ones after i installed it.

Casamerica, did you connect with tech support? Even if you can't share the files, it would be good to take a closer look at what your problem is. It sounds like a rendering issue, not as in it being slow, but happening at all. I'm really concerned about this issue.<<< Yes, I am in touch with Brian. I tried almost every combo of settings I can think of last night and this morning and am still having the same problem. The funny thing is that the very same pz3s render without a hitch in P4. So I am pretty much ruling out any sort of mesh or defective file problem source. I'm going to try a few more experiments today and see what happens. Take care and be well. casamerica

WiNC, Now I get what you meant. I'd interpreted the term "legal security" differently from what you'd intended.

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

Warning!!! Warning!!! Following are a few rants from a very tired and somewhat depraved short, fat, balding git. It contains politically incorrect thoughts and language. If you are offended by such do not read further. I guarantee you will get pissed and I guarantee I could care less.
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I have been called, in another thread, one of the more vocal complainers. Well, Ive been called worse. But it underscores a point I wish to make. I have complained. I will continue to complain. I do not buy into the argument that those of us who do complain are whiners who should just shut the fuck up, send our complaints to CL and let them solve it. No. The airing of complaints in public forums has been known to keep those fires nice and toasty under the toes of vendors as well as making nice tasty chestnut treats at Christmas. So I am not going to just shut the fuck up. Nor do I believe Steve or the folks at CL to be deities or gods. Theyre never at the meetings so I know.

Having said that, I wish to repeat and emphasize what I stated earlier in this thread. I believe the people at CL are good people with good hearts. I trust them as much I can trust any form of the human animal. And I will continue to trust them until that time comes when it becomes obvious to me that my trust has been betrayed. Did that happen with the release of Poser 5? Well, I think that P5 is, perhaps, the buggiest piece of software I have purchased since Windows 3.0. I have spent the better part of five days and nights cussing at it, throwing things across the room, performing chants and even contemplating an exorcism on the system it is installed on. I am disappointed, yes. Was I pissed? A bit. Still am. Do I feel betrayed? No. Not yet.

Like I said earlier, I give good people a chance to get up and make good on their promises when they stumble. If, in the end, they do betray that trust or that promise they are the true losers. They will have lost me as a customer and they will have sacrificed their honor. Now I know honor seems a weird subject when it comes to software or business but, perhaps, that is why we have the problems we have today in the business world. Nobody seems to remember what the hell honor is, what trust means.

Steve came forward earlier in this thread and ripped his guts open. Unlike ANY other business or software executive I have ever heard or read he came forward and admitted that there were decisions made that were made because they HAD to get it out the door, they HAD to. I can imagine any number of scenarios and/or reasons why this was the case. Doesnt matter. He did not have to come in here while the brands were still roasting hot and the nooses were being thrown over tree limbs, but he did. He trusted us to understand. He trusted that the relationship between CL and this community is more than just business/customer. That is why CL is not just another company. Oh, you can say that. But it isnt true and that makes you a liar for claiming it is. (That was one of the politically incorrect parts.)

Steve has promised to make good. I intend to give him and his crew a chance to do so. I believe they stumbled badly with this release. I believe that and cannot change that. But, like I said, you give good people a chance to get up and make good. Theyve made mistakes with this release, big ones. They also made a lot of sacrifices to try and bring us the best they could. Maybe they fell short. Who hasnt?

I was am one of the more vocal whiners. I will continue to be. Oh, yes. But I will not advise anyone NOT to buy Poser 5 until Steve and his people have been given a chance to make good on their promises. Maybe my age is catching up with me, but goddamnit I intend to give them the chance to either betray or honor the trust I have extended to them. And if they betray that trust Ill be among the loudest and most profane bastards any of you have ever heard, seen or heard. But I will give them that chance.

Disagree? Fine. Send the damn thing back, reverse the charges on your credit card and state your disagreement here. IMs from gutless wonders will only be ignored for the troll excrement they are. (That is another of the politically incorrect parts.)

Take care and be well.

casamerica

Bobasaur, Yeah - sorry sometimes I don't probably make myself clear enough - if it was a letter to a business I would probably take more time to formulate my response, but being a forum it tends to be released the moment you press send... and there is no edit :) lol I will try and be a little more clearer in my comments from now on... regards WiNC

Doh! When I told JJ "don't poke the bear". I was referring to his statement about people getting hopping mad about software they don't even own yet. It wasn't targeted towards you Ironbear. Don't poke the bear is one of those funny sayings like: "mess with the bull....you get the horns". ScottA

Well, on a slightly different take to this topic I would like to say that as a Mac user I am not very interested in P5 anymore. Reasons: - If there is one, it wont appear for a long, long time and may be of questionable quality when it arrives. It will be hard to go back to Poser after I have the Mil figures rigged up in Lightwave. (which is almost done, BTW) - When it does arrive, will it have any support for sharing content to other programs? Firefly is nice, but its not Lightwave, C4D or Maya. - I already have limited use of PPP and P4 due to the lack of support for OSX, and thus value for the dollar does not exist in your current product. Frankly an OSX version of PPP would have been more useful to me than a current version of P5 without 3rd party program support. - I feel this delayed release is a clear statement of your lack of dedication to the Mac platform. With other 3D programs available I wont wait for a product developer that doesnt really want me to have a current toolset. My artistic expressions are not for you to schedule. As a Poser user since 1.0 I can say that Mac support and interest clearly died off the day OSX was released. - This is the biggest one. One of the most appealing reasons for buying Poser is the opportunity to develop content for the Poser community. Your choice to delay a Mac version has firmly locked all Mac developers out of that market opportunity. No ability to develop for P5 significantly while waiting for a Mac version. When it does arrive there will be another delay for learning curve and the market will already be flooded with products, further narrowing any opportunities. I cant even write tutorials for my own website, Poser Arcana, any more. With all that said, after complaining I will offer what I feel are solutions, which is the price one should pay for complaining. ; ) I always wanted Poser to be a plug in or stand alone content manager for other programs. It is the content and the ability to quickly select clothing, poses, etc that appeal to me. I dont really like the interface or the "room" metaphors, and the output options are less adequate than other software solutions. So you would have the metaphorical keys to the 3D kingdom if you created a program that managed this content and then blew it all out successfully into other programs to work with natively. With a solution like this your program becomes appealing and actually usable for users of any 3D software at any skill level, and the Poser content developers gain access to new markets and opportunities. This would be the first real industry standard 3D format/solution and would revolutionize everything. If I had any startup capitol or had the programming skills myself, this is what I would do. I have no ill will towards you CL, but I did want to express to you why you are loosing at least one long time Mac customer, and why even though Mac users are a "minority" our use of your program is significant far beyond simple sales volume. My best to you.

I agree an update plugin to let me import my poser pro animations into my OSX seat of cinema would have made me happy!! now im still forced to Boot into that ancient OS9(arghh!!!!) and set up my poserpro4 animations for rendering in my OS9 version of C4DXL fortunately i can reboot back into OSX proper and render my C4D poserpor4 animation in OSX under classic mode in the back ground with no problems and not have my MAC held hostege to this process as it would in OS9.

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I guess not being a rabid fan of Poser makes me a liar and a troll. Wow, that is so interesting casamerica, that I need to write that down for future reference. So I guess it's "If you aren't with us, you are against us..." eh?

CL isn't unique, at least not in the way you are making it sound casamerica. They are just another company trying to survive long enough to cash in on what obviously is a very big market, to get return on their three year investment and will do whatever it takes to make that happen. That doesn't make them bad people, just people with poor judgement. There is nothing wrong with being dedicated to seeing such an investment to completion, but let's not try to make it out to be more than that (like they are doing everyone a big favor because they care). If there were no money in Poser, they wouldn't have bothered.

CL is unique in the fact that they have a rabid fan base, but I think that has more to do with what the program does than the actual mechanics or even the company (especially since CL is the third owner of Poser). It has brought art to the masses, masses that have almost reached the point of addiction. Poser has no competition, no where else to get that "fix" if I may be so bold. If a product came out tomorrow that worked like Poser (and accepted Vicky, Mike and pz3 files) and had less bugs in it and good customer support. Don't you think many would drop CL like a bad habit? Look at Daz's Vicky and Mike and how they completely annihilated the use of Posette and Dork for most people. Brand loyalty is a myth. People get what works for them regardless of the brand. The loyalty is only when the product happens to fit a brand that they like.

When CL released Poser 5, they knew (and don't think they didn't) that this would be the reaction. It's not hard to see that the fan base will eat up anything that was said or done in relation to Poser 5. This is why they found it acceptable to put out such a lemon, because they knew it would raise cash and their fans would forgive them, because the fans have no choice if they want to do that style of artwork without spending lots more money. There is no other alternative and so with a closed market like that, they have the freedom that most companies don't have.

In another note, I was a bit unclear in my previous statement. I do have sympathy for the programming staff at CL for their hardships. It is never fun, and often a stressful time, when forced into that situation by poor management decisions. As I said before, no one on a development team wants to see a project go south. It's almost like watching a child die. You want the program to live, but you also need to eat, and so it's a difficult struggle to spread yourself between those two worlds. So to them, they have my respect as I know it's not their fault that the company dealt them that hand. However, my comment about sympathy for CL (meaning it's management) is still true for me.

Maybe if CL went out of business, the development staff and the program would be put into the hands of someone who knows how to run a software company thus giving Poser 5 a stable future. For now, all we know is that the CL is in deep financial trouble, they have a protection scheme that depends on them being in business, and that Poser 5 is probably the worse release since Anarchy Online and a fix may come in an undetermined amount of time (weeks, but no word on how many weeks). I would not recommend Poser 5 to anyone under these circumstances until CL could show that it has a future.

After all, $349 may be a drop in the bucket for some people (or $129 even), but for others it's a lot and people deserve to have a working product when they've plunked down that money.

Staale: Thank you, I was aware of that "fix" although Curious have kept it extremely quiet for reasons known only to themselves. I discovered it quite by accident in an earlier thread several weeks ago. However, I'm afraid it doesn't fix the memory leak on PCs, it appears to add a simple patch to one of the dynamic link libraries (asi32_12.dll) and while it does help it doesn't mend it. Unfortunately also, there is a teeny bit of fiddling necessary to get it to work, fiddling that I detailed and explained for people (the file requires renaming in order to work with Poser 4/4.03). Simply because the file inside that archive is not correctly named to work with poser 4 as it is targeted at Poser Pro Pack. So, it's a small file that sticks a finger in a leaking dyke, but as with all leaks, it really needs a proper fix, not some poor slobs index finger. As regards Poser crashing, there is more to a crash than the program arbitrarily closing. I lump anything that makes a program unresponsive as a crash. ScottA: Thanks. I didn't miss your hardware reference, I completely ignored it. I'm not an idiot. I've been working with computers for over 20 years and am perfectly capable of selecting hardware that works. My other applications work fine with my current hardware setup, Poser acts in interesting ways. Interesting ways that are concurrent with hundreds of other users and if you're trying to tell me that hundreds of vocal people, perhaps thousands (if one considers the silent majority) of other people have my exact hardware setup on their systems then I think you need to think about that a bit. Everything is fine "over here" wherever that is supposed to be. Thanks.

Ah. I see... Doh! You gets punchy after awhile here. ;] Not a colloquialism from my end of the country Scott, but we do have the "dance with the bull - get the horns" phrase. ;] Another one is "it'll all come out in the warsh". So will all this in the end - it'll work out and CL will make good, or it won't and they wont. That's all I was saying: save the praise and the kudos for after the patches and fixes are delivered, not for the promises of them. Np, jj... I realise that. People here are big enough boys and girls to do whatever they're going to, and cope with it. Np. shrug That's how I buy software and hardware though: I look at ads and promos, and then I wait for independant reviews and user reviews. I look at what Tom's Hardware, VoodooExtreme, FiringSqaud and the hardcases over at MaximumPC have to say on it... if after all is said and done, it looks good, I plunk down my hard earned dollars on a new motherboard, case, card, or Cpu. Software isn't any different - except that I can generally take the hardware back to MicroCenter, TCComputing, or Fry's in 30 days if it's fucked. Software I generally cannot, so it becomes imperative to check it out first, then buy. I'm still with ShadowWind - $349 is about what I'm fixing to pay for an upgrade to a specialised renderer I use for the little pro-end work I do. It's a nice chunk of change for me, I want to know that tool will work for me. For some of the people I know here, $349 is a pretty good sum of cash to shell out.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

ShadowWind, write down whatever you like. As I stated, I can guarantee that I could not care less. But if you want to get into a pissing contest with me by trying to twist my meaning, I can guarantee that you will lose. The troll excrement statement was in regard to those who insist on launching their flames from the cover of IMs. The statement was clear to what it meant. But then, you knew that. As for the liars and CL being "just like any other company," well, how often do executives from Jasc, Adobe, Corel, TrueSpace, Lightwave, Rhino, Animation Master, etc. come into these forums to face the heat for their actions, errors, flubs and miscues? The execs and people from CL have and do often. THAT alone makes them different. THAT alone shows evidence that they ARE different because they regard US differently. Hell, most of the other companies come in to announce a big release, make their promises and then hightail it when the bugs and problems rush in. CL did not. THAT makes them different. So you can read into THAT whatever you wish. None of this changes the fact that I am still disappointed in what we have and still more than a bit pissed. But, like I said, you give good people a chance. But, then, I'm wasting my time trying to explain that to you. As you clearly stated, you have NO SYMPATHY. That reveals quite a bit right there. And why in the hell am I wasting my time with someone who DOESN'T EVEN HAVE THE FUCKING PROGRAM! CL stumbled badly with the P5 release. And if I see hesitation to make good on their promises to fix P5 or attempts to blow smoke up our asses, no one will be "rabid" in their attack than I. Nothing is more hideous than a devil dog foaming at the mouth. And if you think I am a "rabid fan of Poser" you haven't been reading the forums. I truly hope you never stumble badly in any endeavor you pursue. But if you do, I also hope you have more understanding folks surrounding you than you are. Take care and be well. casamerica

Ironbear, you know from a few of our IM exchanges that I am not exactly pleased as a "rabid" fan with P5 right now. Whoa, not at all. But when it came down to it, I had to decide between giving what I believe to some decent, good folks a chance to get up and make good after stumbling badly. Kinda like giving that running back another chance after he fumbles the ball. I'm not saying everyone has to agree with that philosophy and maybe my age is making me too damn forgiving for my own good. But I see some attacks, insinuations and innuendoes being made against what I perceive to be basically good people. Weve all made mistakes. Bad ones. Little ones. Big ones. And when we did, how many of us did not wish for that opportunity to make up for it? To make good on it? Most of the time we probably did not get that chance. Perhaps, maybe, that is why I think Im willing to give Steve and his crew that chance. Just like others here I respect such as yourself, Legume, ScottA, JeffH and on and on. If one of you made a promise to me and stumbled in trying to fulfill it, you can bet the farm I would give you a chance to still make good on it. I guess that is what Im doing here. The only difference is that some see it as giving a business a break. I see it as giving a group of people who just happen to be part of a business the break. I hope I made some sense. It has been a very, very long week and some recent personal news has not exactly been pleasant. So I do tend to ramble. Sorry for that. Ive always given a person the chance to either betray or honor my trust. If they honor it, we all win. If they betray it? Well, beware of the devil dog foaming at the mouth. Take care and be well. casamerica

Actually Chuck Baker from Newtek, and Roman Ormandy from Caligari are quite active on their own forums. CL doesn't have a personal forum so they come here. The other companies are jsut as active, they just have their own forums in which they talk. Maybe they don't know renderosity is here?

Questor. You keep putting words in my mouth. And sticking your foot in yours. ;-) ScottA

Just one last point, though I'd promised myself I wouldn't continue making any comments. Casamerica. Curious Labs may come here to talk but other software companies have their own forums. The image I've posted is just a small example, and I picked Eon as another small company to start that example and end with Maya. You'll find that company members do visit those forums and discuss, chat and answer gripes. Same with other companies like nVidia, Ati, Microsoft etc etc etc. I'm not picking on you, just pointing out the slight error in the belief of some people that Curious Labs are unique. They aren't, but not every company out there considers Renderosity as the centre of the known universe. Also, it may not have been noticed because they didn't come to the Poser forum which is irrelevant to their software, but other software execs/staff have visited renderosity in the past.

Well Scott, perhaps if you spoke in plain English rather than vagueries and innuendos I would have to worry about which foot to use next.

Holy cow;... how many more feet can you get in there?

Questor, And I am not picking on you, either. ;-) I hope you do not take it that way. What I do find interesting, though, is that with CL and e-on (I had forgotten them, but I have much the same regard for them as I do CL.) are unique in one very big way, at least in my book, in that THEY come to US. In other words, they come HERE (and PoserPros and a few other places), in an arena(s) they do not control to face us on equal terms. Perhaps I place too much value on something others apparently regard as meaningless. It would not be the first time... and I am sure will not be the last. ;-) Take care and be well. casamerica

Well now that we've figured out that I have a problem. Can we stop playing cowboys and indians and go back to the original question? What software are you going to buy instead of Poser? ScottA

"As for the liars and CL being "just like any other company," well, how often do executives from Jasc, Adobe, Corel, TrueSpace, Lightwave, Rhino, Animation Master, etc" I suggest you look at some of their company homepage forums... you will be surprised... It has become a typical business strategy for companies to have at least one of their company (Head Designer, CEO of Program development, Head Programmer, Manager of Support, or the coffee maker) communicating with their community/end-users/spammers on their forums. So what Steve does here isn't any different.... ScottA - Questor has already said he will not offer third party software here, because he does not want to derail this thread topic. I would hope you would respect that... Especially since it seems to be common practice by moderators, and die hard fans of Poser/CL to derail topics by changing the topic...

Casamerica OK, at least we both know we aren't picking on each other. That's good. :) The fact that Curious Labs comes here can be taken several ways. They're too lazy and cheap to run their own forum - company size is irrelevant, other small ones do it. OR, they prefer to have somewhere they can run away from where they need take no responsibility whatsoever for what is said. (or both) Or, it could be as you say, they're just nice and making the exception. Personally I'm not sure which, if any, the real reason is. Public Relations springs to mind as a preference. The royal "speak with the people" sort of thing. So, yes, Curious Labs are unique in coming to the Poser forums. Probably because it's for their software. But they aren't unique in this action. Others do it too, just not in "Poser" forums. :) Sorry to berate the subject but while I respect them for "facing the public" I don't respect them for being unique where they aren't. I have more respect for a company that hosts it's own forums and takes the heat for their products there, under their own roof and not fobbing off the responsibility for policing on other unrelated and unpaid people. (unpaid being "not CL salary") Curious do make the effort to come here yes, should they be praised for it? Dunno. Should they be called unique for it? Hell no. I don't consider Poser forums as the end of city limits and just because Bill Gates doesn't visit here because some people use Windows doesn't mean diddly. Same with McNeel, Maxon, Avid, Alias, Newtek and all the others who's tools are used in the production of Poser items. It's not a related forum for their software, I wouldn't expect to see them here. They don't all come to Renderosity? Well, as I said above, it's not the centre of the universe. I know the owners would like it to be, but it isn't. In fact I'd be very surprised if even 1/10th of the other companies had even heard of the place. ScottA: I never play(ed) cowboys and indians, my parents instilled in me a devout hatred of genocide which kind of spoiled the game. Software? I answered that further up. The answer sticks. This isn't the thread or the forum.

Fair enough. Just thought I'd ask. ScottA

WiNC No problem.

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

Questor, Like I told IB, "Perhaps I place too much value on something others apparently regard as meaningless. It would not be the first time... and I am sure will not be the last." ;-) WinC, You missed the point and I am too tired to go into it again. So lets just end it by agreeing to have different points of view on the situation. Take care and be well. casamerica

To All, Something has arisen that requires my attention. It seems that I will, most likely, not be posting for at least a few days. As of now, it looks like I leave Monday. A most inopportune time, I know, but sometimes life does that to you. It is an imperfect universe. Then again, sometimes life lets you know that something that seemed so all-important a few hours ago doesn't really mean crap. We've got different views, different feelings and different opinions on what is happening with Poser 5, Curious Labs, Daz, etc. Let's not make enemies of each other over those differences. ShadowWind, I think I owe you an apology. In rereading my response to you I realize I stepped over the line. Like I said, a long and tiring week. That is not an excuse, though. Again, my apologies. In the meantime, everyone, take care and be well. casamerica

Have a good one Cas. Hope what ever it is works out well for you.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

waves at Bear and Q bookmark

ROFTL !!!!

SAL9000 - Hello Dr. Chandra, Will I've dream?

Hey Doc,

Ya gotta link to those pictures? I missed 'em.

Sigh.

How come everytime I try to think of something new someone beats me to it while I'm rendering?

Maybe I should try Sabine women and use crawfish?

--- wonders off to freestuff to see if anyone's created fully articulated crawfish.

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

Would you people GROW UP?The horse you are beating is ALREADY DEAD.God!It is VERY simple.Use Poser5,find the bugs,report them.Takes about 10 lines TOPS with maybe a pic to show an example.DON'T call each other names,attack each other,or threaten.It IS good to bring up bugs and tell CL/Steve them.That's it.Nothing more.Man,chill.Bye the way Steve Can you fix the fact that only P5 figures will work in the Face room(that stinks),and that 512 by 512 resolution limit?As well as the lack of morphs,and all the other bugs?Thanks.

And While I'm asking,Steve,Can you make The Millenium Figures(I love Mike2) more compatible?It is a shame they have problems.

The millenium figures are nothing to do with Curious Labs and it's not their responsibility to make them anything. Daz3d have already made a statement on this situation and on their development of Mike/Vickie 3 in relation to Poser 5. A forum search should reveal that answer.