Attached Link: My Stance on the Big P5 Issue

I'm probably not going to have a popular opinion in here, but so be it. [ **Here's my stance**](http://www.posercity.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index).

Philc showed me some cool stuff and certainly had many great things to say about P5 as have others. But, my gut is telling me that this software was just not ready to be released.

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Greybro, I'm very confused. You have been a well-respected presence here for a while, and I'm a happy purchaser of several of your products (like Chavez). That's why I took the time to read your posted stance. But in your explanation of why you won't be using Poser 5 you state: "Yeah, I shelled out the $300 + so maybe now those guys can get a paycheck. But, considering the bugs with the version of the software I currently own, those bugs with which I've become accustom (sic), I think I'll forgo being deluged with a whole new set of bugs." The question I have is this: If you are a user of Poser 4, which you must be in order have make product for the marketplace, then why did you have to shell out $300+ for your upgrade? You should only have paid less than half that. Are you exagerrating the facts for effect? Do you own a LEGAL copy of Poser 4? Either way, this discrepancy casts a shadow on your opinion and I hope that you can explain this away satisfactorily. --jjsemp

Interesting! Could be reasons for it but would like to know. Ron

Brent is also entitled to his opinions. Ron

Attached Link: Vote Devil!

I paid 129$ plus shipping, which seems like a good deal considering the cost of dynamic cloth & face modeling from image plug-ins for other apps. much more than that!

But, my gut is telling me that this software was just not ready to be released.

Nooooo .... you think?? ;-)

While a major BUG patch would help a LOT of problems, and make P5 useable, there are some core issues that simply will not be solved. The interface will still be a non-standard GUI, with a host of functionality problems. (Hopefully they CAN fix the FOCUS and CURSOR issues of the inteface with a patch.)

A few issues that speak to the heart of functionality, that are sadly lacking in Poser:

No real UNDO, let alone multiple levels;
No 3D acceleration;
No mouse-wheel or right click support;
No recent files list and directory setup functionality;
Etc., etc.

To me, and I think a LOT of people realize (or are realizing) just this ... P5 appears to be the same old Poser with some (albeit neato) 3rd party apps slapped on top of a decrepit interface.

I have been a Poser user since Poser 2, and have been animating almost exclusively with Poser (a little Max, TrueSpace and Bryce here and there) since version 3. So I am definitely a fan. It is out of LOVE of the Poser concept I reveal such criticism.

_Tim

I suppose your question is fair though from where I sit it sort of feels accusatory. Obviously, we don't know each other that well or you wouldn't be questioning my character like this. My stance on warez is well known. Since I have nothing to hide I will answer you directly. I ordered a full version of p5 and I own a legal version of p4. I run Poser on multiple machines on my home network, as my wife likes to toy with Poser as well. She works upstairs where the kids spend the evenings in front of the TV, and I work down in my basement lair. To operate simulaneous running versions (legally), I have to own 2 copies to be in compliance. So, my wife will continue to play with P4, only now, when I finally do install P5, we'll be able to work simulateously. Hope this answers your question. Regards, Brent

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I've been watching the posts, and for every person saying it's buggy there is at least one other it works fine for...like me. Some of the problems seem to be computer specific. And no one has had an actual problem with the security system or eula yet(check out the poser 5 store)

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

Tirjasdyn, it's just that which concerns me, the seemingly random incompatibility issues. The security is just one small part of my issues with it. Probably the biggest deal to me is that the face room won't work with Vicky and Mike. I didn't realize it was going to be limited to strictly the new models. That is a real drag as far as I'm concerned. So, take away the face room and isn't it essentially p4 with a new render and few other bells and whistles?

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Brent I never doubted you! Tim do you really use Truespace? Talk about an interface. Hmmmm, I will take Poser5 thank you very much. Also own Truespace and the last 3 upgrades. I also have to laugh a bit because the LightWave and Max people constantly complain about the interface. Ron

Tirjasdyn:

Regardless, the sheer number of incompatibilities is a major concern. And also, I run a plethora of applications (more than any one OS should have to handle probably) and NONE of them (not ONE) crash or have any other problems. Some of these programs are even more complicated than Poser.

_Tim

Greybro, Your reply does answer my questions. Thanks. Sorry you felt that I was being accusatory, but when you go out of your way to post an opinion and announce it, we all have the right to examine your credibility. It's what enables us to determine whether to VALUE your opinion or not. Ron, I never said Greybro wasn't entitled to his opinion. But I don't know Greybro personally, so I had to ask what I thought was an obvious question. --jjsemp

Tim Would you like me to post a TrueSpace crash, How about lets see Max, Lightwave or Maya? I can do it even with the patches. Or would you prefer Windows or AOL? Ron

GreyBro - you're as entitled to your opinion as everyone else is to flame you for it ;o) Seriously, I'm not even able to BUY P5 yet (serial # trouble), but I'd still like to offer my stance - nothing like a reasonably fresh thread to mess up ;o) All software has bugs - we all know the tech and money reasons for it. Get pissed, then get over it, and get the bugs reported. Good developers don't write bug-free code, but they fix reported bugs fast. Poser became a unique app at v. 3, and v. 4 was out of this world to a figure-starved 3D community. There's still nothing like it, except DAZ' "mystery app" ;o) The CL gang coulda sold their skills and app easily when MC dumped them (look at the rudimentary "Poser" stuff in Cinema and TrueSpace). But they didn't sell - they hung in there. I'm not a loyal follower, I'll switch to DAZ' app if it ever gets here, and turns out to be a better one. But I still remember d/l'ing free P4 upgrades from whatever obscure server Kupa & co. could find for'em ;o) I figure I sort of owe them one. So I'll buy P5, bugs and all, and see how well they iron out the shortcomings before I decide whether it was worth it or not. And so far, bugs or no bugs, fits or no fits, I wouldn't trade my all-too-few years with Poser for any other hobby. I've been drawing and painting for 15 years before P3 seduced me, so I guess I could do my pix without Poser - but I can still re-boot a hell of a lot faster'n I can re-paint, if you catch my drift ;o)

Thanks Ron. Thanks jjsemp. It's cool. Kupa ask me the same quesiton on the phone when I asked what the full price would be. "Why don't you get the upgrade?" I could rant on that whole issue about not being able to run multiple instance on the same network with a single serial. But, I won't. I understand the security reasons for it, but that makes it no less annoying. And I don't want to give anyone the impression that I'm a CL hater or a Poser hater. On the contrary. Hell my site isn't called "Lightwave City" or "3dmaxcity", those names were taken (kidding). It's called PoserCity. Poser is, simply put, the most fun I've ever had with a peice of software. I love it, being a person of negative sketching ability. I remain dedicated to it's evolution and survival as does Posercity.com. But one has to feel that Kupa and the fellas at CL are a crossroads, pivital to the future of Poser. Am I wrong to be concerned? I don't think so.

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Eek, Tim! No multiple undo? Feh! I tend to agree with you, the bells and whistles would be nice to play with (shader nodes, collision, etc) but there is a lot to be said about core functionality. For a hobbiest level program, one would expect it to be a bit more friendly in those areas.

.

oh for christ sake .!! ... and now we are about to witness the start of another conspiracy theory ...grow up for the love of god ... brent i must agree with yure opinion . for the amount of time that was spent .working on poser 5 . i and iam sure alot of people around here were expecting something better in all my time working with 3d graphics programs .. have i never see a 3d graphics package . with NO OPEN GL HARDWARE SURPORT ...and the list goes on ... dont get me wrong though .. i think poser is a pretty good program .. but lets face facts its not 3d studio max .. or maya even . and has a hell of a long way to go to even touch those programs .. alot of artwork in this place is pretty deceptive especially in the poser galleries . yu only need to ask some of the more popular artist here . about the amount of postwork they have to do .. . in my opinion ... istead of wasting there time on things like ..dynamic hair ,and cloth ... maybe they should have got the basics right first.. like a program that doesnt . take a hundred years to render all the while eating yure vitual memory for lunch .. the abality to mutiple select objects . etc etc .. . heres hoping poser 6 will kick ass ..good luck curious labs

These aren't bugs but a wish list. The only bug I've seen is the "focus" bug, though I'm sure it is necessarily a focus problem because you can click through the window. This is hardly a huge but though. and what is the sheer number by your count, tom? I have not seen that many posts that can be considered acutal bugs. As for random the majority seem to be systems with amd chips and nvidia cards or drivers. I pointed out the pattern in an earlier thread. From what I've played with, I see a new program. It LOOKS simular but hardly runs the same. textures are applied differently(I've found it easier to pose then apply where in p4 it was the other way around) Materials now have their own library, which texture maps and new materials can be saved in. The only different in speed has been rendering with shadow maps/shadows raytraced turned on in the new editor. As for the mil/face room thing, that may be a casuality of the seemingly daz/cl split.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

3D Software without glaring bugs is possible. I use Rhino 3D and Cinema 4D daily and both didn't crash a single time since I got them (one year ago). Both have multiple undos. ;)

Poser has never had a multiple undo. It's base app works fine for me. Just because it didn't come with various support you wished for doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

You said it artdude41. I guess I was hoping for something more like Bryce. You know, Bryce is user friendly but has this mondo cool render engine and can be learned fairly quickly as opposed to max, maya and others. In many ways, I think it's the whole grass roots feel of CL that have the community behind them. The way you can actually IM one of the honchos in Kupa and he'll usually answer you back. I guess I should really with hold my bitching until I get my hands into it. It's just, well you know, the whole Vicky Mike/ Faceroom incompatability thing has really sucked the winds from my sails. I'd like to dream that someday that will change but it doesn't look to be in the cards. I'm still reall fuzzy on how you make a body text to go with the cool face texture you make in the face room too. If I knew more about that, maybe the wow factor would kick in and I could shake the blues. Tirjasdyn, I think the point about the undo's is that it damn well should be more like most major apps. You know, more than one undo.

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Well, I have an Athlon with a NVidia graphics chip. So far, Poser 5 has not crashed on me once. The only bug I've encountered has been the focus bug. I would have liked to have seen a different interface, but I can live with the one we got. While it is true that Poser doesn't compare well with Maya in features, it sure does in price. OpenGL preview would be nice, but again, it wouldn't affect the final render. So why is it that important? Rendering speed? Yea, I'm a little disappointed with this. The Firefly renderer can take a long time to render, even with ray-tracing turned off. FWIW, I have an Athlon 1900+ with 1 GB RAM, 70 GB free space on HD. Even trueSpace with Radiosity turned on is faster. Hopefully improvements will be made here. Overall, I think Poser 5 was/is a good program. I am happy with it, and it isn't a doorstop for me.

.

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

ok, open question to anyone who might know...... how is it, that poser 4 cost 200 DOLLARS to US customers and 200 POUNDS to UK customers....the equivelant of roughly 300 dollars at current exchange rates. And are we in Britain, going to have to pay extra for poser 5 when it finally starts getting shipped here?

"To me, and I think a LOT of people realize (or are realizing) just this ... P5 appears to be the same old Poser with some (albeit neato) 3rd party apps slapped on top of a decrepit interface." I said pretty much the same thing shortly before P5 shipped. Only, at that time I didn't know the additional features were licensed from other companies. I think most people are upset because of built-up expectations followed by a huge let down. But it's not our fault our expectaions were what they were...CL has been making promises for over a year and they didn't come through. The promise of a "brand new program," "written from scratch." Obviously, P5 has not been written "from the ground up." It's got the same OLD interface with its inherent problems and the same OLD core. It's even got some of the same OLD bugs. That's another broken promise: "oh, it'll be fixed in Poser 5." And, I'm sorry, but the "all new software has bugs" excuse doesn't wash with me for two reasons: 1) No, not like this they don't. 2) That was CL's big excuse for taking so long, remember? They were taking their time to "do it right." And people in this forum kept saying, "don't rush them, let them take their time." So they took their time and look what we have. And ron: yes, you can force a crash on software. But you know that's not what we're talking about here. Software shouldn't crash when you're using it as it's supposed to be used. And, yes, even following the manual. These lame, unrealistic excuses aren't going to help make Poser any better. Kupa said he was going to post something about what it took to get P5 out the door. I wish he'd hurry. I would sure like to know what took three years since most of the new stuff wasn't done by CL and the core of P5 is still P4. So what took three years?

And, I'm sorry, but the "all new software has bugs" excuse doesn't wash with me for two reasons: 1) No, not like this they don't. 2) That was CL's big excuse for taking so long, remember? They were taking their time to "do it right." And people in this forum kept saying, "don't rush them, let them take their time." So they took their time and look what we have. Amen Brother!

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Brent You can do the same thing in the face room on Vick or Mike with morph putty. The difference is with morph putty you can do the whole body. Not so in the face room. So to me that is not a valid concern. You will have to try it to see. I can also do in the face room most every thing else on them except the random stuff. Here a pic of Vick using morph putty and Judy using the face room. Each took about 5 seconds. Vicky first. Ron

Would you like me to post a TrueSpace crash, How about lets see Max, Lightwave or Maya? I can do it even with the patches. Or would you prefer Windows or AOL? Ron Ron, no that would be a total waste of time, and prove that you have an incredibly unstable and poorly maintained system. I run Win2K PRO on all machines, they run 24/7/365, and I have never had a BSOD, the system has never gone down, and programs RARELY crash. Most have NEVER crashed. I'm a power-user, and all my rigs are over-taxed with both hardware and software. WIN2K is simply an amazing OS, and properly-coded software behaves without fault. -Tim

,

"These aren't bugs but a wish list. The only bug I've seen is the "focus" bug..."

I never said they WERE bugs ... but they ARE key usability issues that should have been addressed by version 5 for Pete's sake!

Hell, a crappy little program like COOL3D has multiple REAL** UNDOs, right mouse and wheel functionality, and OPENGL 3D hardware support.

Pretty much every application on the planet (not just 3D apps) has a REAL undo feature, where it's appropriate of course.

I'm a HUGE FAN of Poser, so this is why it really bothers me that they're not getting it right, especially after all this time. If you can't see that the software DEFINITELY has NOT been built from the ground up, your loyalty has overwhellmingly blinded you beyond what is reasonable.

-Tim

Here is Judy! Face room. Compared to Vicky above using morph putty. Tim most crashes are because of the OS. Also run Win2K Pro sp3. Ron

"Poser has never had a multiple undo. It's base app works fine for me." It doesn't even have a SINGLE UNDO technically ... what you can UNDO is a joke by almost anyone's standards. If you can be happy with the single/broken UNDO Poser offers, my hat is off to you. "Just because it didn't come with various support you wished for doesn't mean it doesn't work." That's true ... but unfortunately, it has been clearly demonstrated it is a faulty product. Kupa himself has stated it shipped with bugs ... and we're not talking insubtantial bugs. Also, the stance that it is an Nvidia users issue is preposterous. NVidia is not the issue ... it is the fact that the Poser 5 programmers wrote an application that does not appear to be very compatible with an NVidia chipset (which occupies what obscene amount of the marketplace?) is the REAL issue. Yeah, it's NVidias fault CL wrote crap code for the display interface. -Tim

okay why are people posting periods and commas, LOL. For the "every program has bugs, doesn't wash with me comment" Not on this scale? And what scale is that? Again I ask for a list of these major bugs in the program, I've only seen one that pertains to everyone and its hardly major. If you don't actually have the program and are listening to the gripes of others who don't have the program, who are you to gripe? As for "it darn well should have had these features" who says, who made the promises it would? And poser is barely in the market of 3ds and maya, truespace et all, and costs a whole h*** of alot less than those apps too. I'm a brycer so the long render time doesn't bother me much lol. No offense on the Amd owners. I just noticed a pattern on those that have had real problems, starting with Vareesh(sp).

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

Running an AMD here no crashes yet and no offense taken. Ron

Well, Gee, thanks Ron. Those screenshots have made me even more impatient for my copy, which is officially late as of end of busines today to arrive. Didn't realize you could use the morph putt on Vicky so that'sa big plus to me.

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Okay I didn't say it was a problem with Nvidia, I said I noticed a pattern with amd AND nvidia users that have problems. I based this off my own experience with AMD chips and video problems caused by them. I have an Nvidia card btw and poser works fine for me. Multiple undos take up memory. P5 is a memory hog, I will say that, perhaps they tried that the memory couldn't handle it, i don't know. If a program doesn't take up alot of memory it makes sense that it can have more undos. Again point me to the demonstration of buggyness. I know what kupa said, but he didn't give examples and I have yet to see one in this forum or any other besides the on focus problem.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

Most of the new features in Poser 5 really are just other people's software attached to Poser4. The base program code is probably entirely the same. Really, there comes a time in every software's life, when it has to be rewritten from the ground up, to escape the drag of its own legacy. Lightwave, 3DSmax, Softimage, Maya, they all go through these phases. They try to make the easiest transitions they can, but ultimately they don't stop progressing to the next level. Poser5 was CL's rewrite wakeup call. ProPack was very obviously stretching the issue thin. Hair and cloth are all well and good, but not when you couple it to an aging basic figure rigging format. And for everyone that keeps saying "You can't have feature X in such a cheap program. And thats why we don't in Poser" are very wrong. There are plenty of cheap programs out there that have more advanced rendering, rigging etc for about the same price. What those programs lack is a method of figure content distribution that's as painless as Poser. What they spent that money on instead, is usually a full suite of modelling tools. So its really all about where those companies chose to spend the money, and not about features being too "complicated" "expensive" or "advanced" for a program like Poser. I mean if you rip the Morphing, Rigging, and Basic Rendering out of Maya and sell it on its own, how much is that worth without all the rest? Probably a lot less than the full package. ;)

Man I hate whiners...

If you don't like P5 don't use it. The rest of us are having fun.

We don't really need to know why.

-Jeff

Jeff I was pretty sure the forum was for expressing people's thoughts on issues relating to Poser. Perhaps you'd care to express why you feel someone posting their unhappiness about the program is somehow invalid? Or deserving a derogatory remark of referring to them as "whiners". And if you don't need to know why, then why bother reading this thread? No one's forcing anyone to read, respond, or think what they don't want to.

While I don't have P5, I have certainly found that the ALLEGED undo feature of P4 is a major farce. At least 9 times out of 10 that I have tried to undo ANYTHING, nothing happens. It's so unpredictable and generally uncooperative that I have resigned myself that there simply is NO actual undo in Poser (not even one fully functional level, in any case). Now I hear that P5 is no better. It seems to me this is one of those BUGS that was carried wholesale from P4 to P5 with absolutely no attempt to fix it at all. THIS is "taking time to do it right??"

For once, I would like to see a thread that would be helpful in making up my mind whether or not to purchase P5. I heard so many bad things about Bryce 5, but I bought it anyway and it runs flawlessly on my system. Such a tough decision. BTW, real low blow casting doubts on someone's honesty just because they speak out negatively. It suprises how shitty the "big names" can get and still maintain the respectable status.

AMEN, MALLEN!! You put it a lot more eloquently than I would after reading Jeff's outrageous post. And Jeff ... you're a moderator?? If everyone had Jeff's (and others attitude) NOTHING would ever change! Scary that you're a moderator Jeff. I always though you were more level-headed than this. Look at it on a large scope ... Just think what would happen if no-one complained about how unsafe cars seemed to be?? Or what if everyone was complacent with DOS? Or, regarding one of my top hobbies ... what if everyone was complacent with VHS format and pan-and-scan home video. or ... well, you get the idea. -Tim

AGAIN, I'm griping about it becuase I DO like it SOO much.

I was one of the first people to plunk down my money for the upgrade.

I've got no other personal adgenda. I've got nothing to gain (except, as I hope, a change in programming at CL for at least Poser 6), but I've got everything to lose ...

I'm hoping to do some business with CL, and I realize by criticising their baby it could jeopardize it. However, I am of the mind that they don't take things personally, and to some extent, hopefully appreciate the feedback -- good and bad. After reading and speaking with Kupa, I can honestly say he does not operate that way, but you never know how it will affect someone who is so close to something. Emotions are always risky business.

_Tim

Legume: I have to agree with you there ... not installing it, IS kind of silly. It doesn't crash your system or anything. (Well, unless you're fool enough to still be running a non-NT based kernal OS, that is.) Try it out, maybe you'll be lucky. Even if you aren't, and are "half-lucky" (like me), there are still some fun and POWERFUL things to try out. Since the FACE-ROOM behaves REALTIVELY well for me, I have all but mastered it. It certainly has its fair share of problems, and unexplainable programming decisions, but it is a useful and powerful tool nonetheless. Could it better? HECK YEA! Do I enjoy it? Most of the time. Materials are blast too. There is a lot to do and learn ... it's just a shame the shoddy interface, bugs, and lacking modern-day features get in the way. -Tim

"Only, at that time I didn't know the additional features were licensed from other companies. " No, that wasn't being stated in all the hype, Jackson. It could be gleaned from a web search on the companies named in the downloadable manual credits, but it wasn't obvious. Heh. They probably didn't want people asking rude questions like "What were you guys Doing for the past 3 years?" ;] "Most of the new features in Poser 5 really are just other people's software attached to Poser4. The base program code is probably entirely the same." - Mallen Lane "To me, and I think a LOT of people realize (or are realizing) just this ... P5 appears to be the same old Poser with some (albeit neato) 3rd party apps slapped on top of a decrepit interface." - timeteo1 Interesting observations. That's a conculsion I've been reaching from observation also. Especialy given the Renderer and Shader nodes come from Pixels 3D, the Cloth from Size8, and the Face Room from SI's FaceGen.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Ah... Brent? Legume does have a great point - now that you've spent the $300+ don't just throw it away. That's wasting cash... get whatever use you can out of it for your money. If you're like me, you can't afford to piss dollars away, bro. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Man I hate whiners... Gee that's close to a name calling TOS violation there 8oP~~~ So did they fix the full body morph problems yet?? So uhm..... what have they been doing for 3 years??

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

"So uhm..... what have they been doing for 3 years?? " Suggestions come to mind, but they'd probably violate something... ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Well, maybe the FireFly render is pure Curious Labs. Oops. ;P

Go re-read the TOS or something. ;]p~~~~~~~

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I don't have any problem with people griping about problems with the program. It's par for the course and I'm glad you people have never had such problems with other programs (I certainly have) I guess I'm one of the lucky ones who's experience this time has been glitch free. But I think that the main problems people have with people who complain about the problems is the quantity of times new threads are started to complain about the same problems and primarily it is the same people making the complaints. when someone like myself and many others go through the forum we are looking for new info on usability. Im not looking for any manifestos Im looking for positive information if there is a new bug I'd be happy to learn about it. otherwise it makes very little sense to me to bring up the same complaints over and over again.

I have no problem with wish lists, or complaints, but are they all reasons not to buy the program? Or install it for that matter? everyone has the right to say, hey wait a minute, but not to smear a name because they didn't get something they wanted, or haven't even bought it. I agree with tim, we have to say what we want to make things better, I wish more people would actually base it on something than other's opinons.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

I have no problem with wish lists, or complaints, but are they all reasons not to buy the program? Or install it for that matter? everyone has the right to say, hey wait a minute, but not to smear a name because they didn't get something they wanted, or haven't even bought it. I agree with tim, we have to say what we want to make things better, I wish more people would actually base it on something than other's opinons.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

Pariah... Here's a little real world advice for ya to help you decide. P5 is absolutely a lot more fun than P4! The hair,materials,face room,and rendering engine make it a really nice upgrade from P4. You'll love the stuff you can do with them. Now here's the real world problem you'll need to deal with: P5 needs a MONSTEROUS machine to run as fast as P4 currently does. The new stuff they added will piss you off if you try to use it on a low end machine. That's not Poser's fault. It needs what it needs. And you should be aware of it up front before you get let down from having to wait for things to happen. I currently use a 1Ghz. PIII with 128 meg ram and it takes a lot of patience to deal with the slowness. But it's still fun. I would recommend at least a 2Ghz processor and 256meg of ram as the bare minimun for P5 if you want it to respond like P4 does on slower machines. P5 is really great. But it's also a bit frustrating because a lot of us don't have enough Ummph to make it fly like it should. In two years 2ghz. machines will be the cheap low end system and Poser5 will come alive down the road as the world upgrades their machines to take advantage of the cool stuff they put in it. If you can get your hands on a decent computer system. I think you will really like it. ScottA

Have a 1.4 with 512 ram...It runs just as fast EXCEPT when I turn on render shadows in firefly. Ya I was thinking about the p4 with just a bunch of addons...it does include pro pack stuff(except the plugins) but just because third parties have contributed doesn't mean it isn't new. just a thought.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

Actually, I'm gonna go with Greybro on this one. Don't instal it. Simple as that. I'm debating unistalling and waiting for the patches myself. It's a really nice program, but it needs some serious help. I was all for it the first 2 days I had it, but it was a touch-and-go two days. Now that I've worked with it, had it crash on me, found out the hair room isn't all it's cracked up to be, ect, I just find it too aggrivating to open anymore. I opened P4 yesterday and it was like finding a long lost friend. I dream of the day I can do that with P5. It just isn't today...

Scott - That's not Poser's fault Oh yes it is, and its a big fault as well. The resource management in P4 was dreadful, all the textures get loaded into memory. For a 32 bit application there's an upper limit (in Win32 and probably linux and MacOS as well) of 2GB usable by the program - this is an upper limit to memory both RAM and virtual. For most programs this is not a problem, but by its nature Poser requires a lot of texture mapping and those textures, when uncompressed can add up to a lot of memory use. Bear in mind that people who felt they needed 512 MB to run P4 well were already pushing the 25% mark and those who felt they needed a gigabyte were sailing close to the 50% maximum. I don't yet have P5 (still waiting here in the UK), but all the indications are that the memory use is even higher. If this is the case, I expect that within a year or so people are going to be pushing the 2Gig mark and P5 will crash and burn, regardless of their installed RAM or OS. It's a built in obselesence and one that a few people are probably already close to hitting. In this respect, I initially had great expectations of Firefly, based as it is (allegedly) on the Reyes rendering algorithm. If this had been implemented properly, it would not require more than a single material (and associated textures) in memory at one time, and load each material only once - which is a fundemental part of it design philosphy and one of the feature that makes it very a very fast and resource friendly render solution. As it stands, going by some of the reports, Firefly is slow resource hog, and it looks like CL fumbled the ball on this one. Still Waiting... Bill

From what steve cooper Steve cooper Stated many of the CL Emplyees worked for months with no pay to get poser 5 shipped Does that mean that they reached a point of permanently losing vital staff or start delivering paychecks with all that Quick Cash from the preorders and just toss out an incomplete release and let the bodies hit the floor??. If thats true its really a shame because they could have delayed Poser5 and Milked **poserpro 4** for more development capital. perhaps they should have Fixed the MAX plugin that only worked for about %40 of MAX users to sell more copies of poserpro4 perhaps they could have fixed the MACintosh Lightwave plugin which seemed to only work for 2 of my "12 animators" ( Saxon & Bobasaur) to sell more copies of poserpror4. perhaps they should have engaged in a more aggressive marketing of the cinema4DXl plugin that works Flawlessly for all 3 of us Cinema guys who know of its existance. :-) As someone who spends alot of time in High-end CG forums outside of rosity i believe a tremendous opportuniy was MISSED with these hosting plugins. ive seen the frustration of MAX LW and C4DXL users who want to do human characters but are stuck with primitave silly cartoonish "rigs " because modeling and building a working CG human on the order of Mike or vicky2 was very labor intensive undertaking in Cinema or lightwave and lets not even talk about clothing/Hair variety. they should have produced a short film on DVD with POSERPRO 4 animations rendered in lightwave MAX and C4DXL and Marketing it heavily in the highend CG community as a viable Character animation Plugin. in my opinion. and now we have a new dodgy version5 with no external plugin support and certainly no real features that would allow any serious Cg animator use it excusively. its time to dust off those old boxes of poserpro4 reapckage poser and the propack as a bundle and drop the price to $200 and get some of that money from those wealthy Lightwave and MAX owners. **-Wolf359 Founding member of the "12 animators"-**

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Well, I had a look at my pigeon hole at work for the first time in months, and I found a letter from egi.sys, (in German :) presumbly telling me I had pre-ordered and could expect it presently, (I don't lassen Deutsch that well :) But I have to say, that surfing the forums, I think he may have a point. If CL are working on a patch, (according to Kupa) then I figure that P5 (once it arrives) can stay in it's box untill such time as it's ready. Meanwhile I can read an learn, as I don't want my experience of P5 to be blighted by needless annoyance & dissapointment. I've just bought some new fae to play with, so I shall continue to tweak with P4, at least when that dies I know how to fix it. later jb

Let me defend Poser. I too was somewhat disappointed, as I had to switch my screen resolution up (which now I'm used to), and the interface was not customized how I like it, and there is a LEARNING CURVE - and the app seems slow. BUT, consider this: 1. The interface is customizable, and I have customized it, and am now IN LOVE WITH IT! I can import and MAKE MORPHS SO EASY! I can delete them, REARRANGE THEM, and it is smooth! 2. Poser 5 is indeed slower than Poser 4 because it is more powerful, and of course, more powerful hardware is required. Most of the complaints are adjustment complaints because of the speed of Poser 4 versus 5, because they just switched on to Poser 5, thus enhancing the noticeable contrast. 3. This is the BIGGEST UPGRADE IN POSER HISTORY. Poser 4 wasn't even really an upgrade, in my opinion, over 3. The only thing that was different was that it could read Mike and Vicky, who basically sold me on Poser 4. Mike is the reason I got Poser 4. This new installment of Poser has SO MUCH NEW STUFF that adjusting to it may be hard, but as I am discovering the new features, and how they work, I'm in love with them!!!! The biggest features are: The CLOTH room, the HAIR room, and the Firefly engine, which can do things that the standard P4 can't, however, you might want to perceive Firefly like the Bryce engine, not through the lens of the traditional Poser Rendering Engine. I guarantee that in the end, the critics will be proved wrong. The only thing that can derail Poser, in my opinion, is if Daz3D stops their content support for the program. God bless, Ben

--BTW, real low blow casting doubts on someone's honesty just because they speak out negatively. It suprises how shitty the "big names" can get and still maintain the respectable status. --- Pariah, I'm the one who cast doubt, but I did it in the form of an open question which Greybro answered. It was not a "real low blow," but a fairly obvious question. No big deal. BTW, I'm not any kind of a "big name" here. And I sure as heck don't want anybody to think I'm respectable;-0 -jjsemp

alot of artwork in this place is pretty deceptive especially in the poser galleries . yu only need to ask some of the more popular artist here . about the amount of postwork they have to do This is a good point that no one seems to have brought up. If you took a poll of the all the "greatest" Poser artists, how many of them actually render the scene in Poser? ("The P4 render engine blows!") Yep, they would respond by saying that they make their figures in Poser and then export the scene to Lightwave, Vue, or 3D Studio Max... programs that have excellent render engines. This is the way these artists work. So, why did CL put so much time, energy, and money into a new render engine that isn't even close to Lightwave or Vue? Just something to think about. I've just bought some new fae to play with Just make sure that Fae is based on a P4 or Vicky character- as far as I can see, the P5 female doesn't have any full-body morphs. Maybe they are really there and I'm missing it, but it seems like Vicky 2 is much more advanced than the "upgraded" default Poser figure. I was actually hoping for the P5 figures to be comparable to Vicky & Mike 3. Oh, well. --John

VanishingPoint... Advanced 3D Modeling Solutions

timoteo1 and any others who are constantly making annoying repetitive noises,

My sole purpose in this forum is to help people learn poser..all versions of it. I don't moderate.

If you have solutions to a problem please feel free to post about them, otherwise take it elsewhere. You're not helping anyone by pounding at the negative.

-Jeff

I respect a lot of people here and at other places. I love Poser5 best upgrade yet. A EULA that has finally told me what I can do and given me the freedom to. Finally protected us people who pay for it and sticked it to the Warez kiddies who like to complain. Least buggy of my last 5 uprades of other apps. Do you want a list? For those of you who are little mice or, is that rats, following the pied pipers go ahead. Dont buy it or use it. Ron

you know ron, you're sounding hysterical, like someone on the titanic

Tirjasdyn: I believe people post periods and commas to bookmark the thread. For the "every program has bugs, doesn't wash with me comment" Not on this scale? And what scale is that? Again I ask for a list of these major bugs in the program, I've only seen one that pertains to everyone and its hardly major. If you don't actually have the program and are listening to the gripes of others who don't have the program, who are you to gripe? Uh, I made the comment you're referring to and I do have P5. If you haven't seen major bugs posted you haven't read back far enough. Go back to the first day it hit. You'll see screen shots and postings from several people. As far as promises, we were promised a "brand new" program "done right." We got an old program done half-a$$ed. ScottA: I have a monstrous machine and still have problems. Heck I even have dual Xeons...oops! Silly me! Oh, and I believe improved resourse management was another of the promises. TalmidBen: "Most of the complaints are adjustment complaints" What makes you say that? Keeping track or it's just your impression? Other P5 No-Matter-What Supporters claim it's because we didn't read the manual. And still others claim it's "inexperience." Which is it? To all I-Will-Defend-P5-No-Matter-Whatites: Please stop trying to pass this off as a normal software release. It isn't. I've never seen such an uproar over any other release in my 18 years dealing with software. Many people don't bich like this without a reason. I know I don't. And, actually much of it is not biching...it's trying to find help and answers. People waited three years while CL stalled with promises they didn't fulfill (including DOING IT RIGHT). And we're "whiners" or "inexperienced" when we point out problems and/or complain? To IronBear: Did you really meet The Duke when you were eight? What was it like?

Darn, forgot to turn off italics. My doctor told me not to take these meds with beer. Shoulda listened.

No movida the warez people are.LOL! Ron

"Yep, they would respond by saying that they make their figures in Poser and then export the scene to Lightwave, Vue, or 3D Studio Max... programs that have excellent render engines. This is the way these artists work. So, why did CL put so much time, energy, and money into a new render engine that isn't even close to Lightwave or Vue? Just something to think about." I read this and looked over to the Mrs. (who's on our graphics cruncher) and asked her a little question: Now that she's been testing the P5 renderer, if she were to take something made in Poser and wanted to render it for a real final "gonna sell this one" format, would she use the new P5 renderer? Her answer was "No." She would still use Bryce. Oh, and to anyone who wants to question my right to not be an ass-kissing sycophant to Poser, try and make me.

MisterDog I have to agree on something with you. Here it is! Bryce is the all time best renderor there is. Not Bryce 5 but 4! It is awesome. Ron

"Here it is! Bryce is the all time best renderor there is." I have seen a lot of people speak well of the Bryce renderer - and I can't for the life of me imagine what they see as the advantage over Lightwave or Max. Bryce is a fairly basic ray-tracing engine after all.

MisterDog, I had to state that I got a chuckle out of your last sentence. :0)

Ron The advantages of for CL of implementing the particular rendering engine technology (reyes) was that it is that on the performance/speed graph it stands head and shoulder above any other other rendering method, which is why it its become an industry standard over the last 15 years. The problem is that by all accounts they've made a dud implementation, and furthermore had it finished so late in the day that there little or no time to optimise or debug it. You want proof of what it can do, go and rent a Pixar movie, or Final Fantasy, or for that matter any other 3D animated feature that has been released in the last decade. All of them have used the Reyes rendering technique. BTW, regardless of the problems, and my criticism, I still intend to use P5 and to do what ever little I can to support it, simply because I am now extremely worried about the future of Poser. Since P5 initial announcement, CL has been stumbling from one PR disaster to another, and along with the big hit in pricing at the outset, I can only presume that their margins are now extremely thin. CL needed a successful product launch to ensure their future and regardless of what positive things can be found to say about the program, the general noise must be putting a hell of a lot of people off taking the risk of upgrading. Those people on this forum who think they are doing CL a favour by saying "If you don't like it don't buy it!" are probably doing the most harm. People are frustrated and disappointed, often for good reason. The best thing for CL (and Poser) is that the frustrations and disappointments are addressed in a positive, constructive way, at least for the benefit of those many people who are lurking out there trying to decide whether to go for it. Bill

Bill I think I am telling them to buy. If you look in the early 70s you will see that my brother cousin, two women lovers and I gave you the math you now have. Ron

Bill: Sorry, but as for your assessment of the resource management, you're wrong. P5 doesn't load textures until render. I'm not sure why people are having trouble with resource management ( if they are ) as my Celeron 600, 384 MB SDRAM, Win ME system is trucking along with not a single hang, wedge, or crash. So is my copy of Poser 5 different, or has every computer-literate person on earth been wrong about Celeron processors and Window ME? Hrm... Ron: Your brother cousin? Is that a Kentucky thing? =D Paul

Sorry Ron I compltely missed the refernce of that. My last post should really have been addressing MisterDog since I was really replying to his query about why CL implemented Firefly, you were just expanding on it. BTW at the start of the year I was working on a new render engine (Reyes again) plugin for ProPack and I had enough success with passing geometries through a Python interface into the compiled code to believe it was viable. I pretty much ditched the idea when P5 was announced, but now, after the (apparent) disapponitment of Firefly, I might just dust off the existing code and have another look at it, once I've finished my current project. Bill

Hmmm... I am probably going to get slammed for this, but what the hay... Out of all of the supporters for P5 here, the ones that impress me most is both Entropic and Legume, who have made done a good job at offering support as to why they feel that P5 is a good product, or one worth working with if you have it or ordered it. And I agree with Legume 100%, if you have it and you don't have any issues with the litature, go for it. Only by trying the program can you really make an informed decision!! JeffH... you were doing really good and made some great comments particularly in regard to the use of this forum to help learn Poser, well said!! But I fear that your "whiner" comment caused that well said comment to be overlooked. Ron... I am sorry bud. I know you mean well and want to support Curious Labs and Poser 5. But you're unfortunately harming that cause. No offense, but your comments as of late make you sound like a snake-oil salesman or a really cheap shill. Tone down some, express more using solid points instead of all heart. I know you mean well, but you are causing people to overlook your posts or what you say. ...Sorry... Well... might as well open myself up to some critism here too by posting my views... Poser 5, to me, is a expansion pack. Sort of like Diablo's HellFire expansion, or the SIMs Hot Date. The only difference being that with those games you need the "Core" to utilize the expansion... This is not the case with Poser 5. Full or Upgrade, it contains the core of Poser 4 in it. Yes, this may be disappointing to some, none-the-less, it contains a familiarity (interface) to it that many of you have grown accustomed too. However, Curious Labs, as mentioned already, has added 3rd Party software to the program and in doing so has added some interesting features that beg to be played with. Make no mistake, no matter that it uses the core of Poser 4, using Poser 5 IS NOT going to be as simple to learn as opening the program and tweaking a few dials. Those who are advanced in using Poser 4 or Poser Pro Pack are not going to be able to just open Poser 5 and create images or products at the same speed as they were in Poser 4... at least till they take the time to learn Poser 5. When I first opened Poser 5, I felt totally unprepared for what I had anticipated. My skill and knowledge with Poser 4 and Pro Pack, suddenly seemed as though I had been playing with completely different program and instantly I knew that tutorials were going to be needed. For the time I used Poser 5, I needed to learn how to setup materials, adjust the settings on them and define their uses. It took time, it took help from the other beta testers and in a couple of days I was able to learn. Same can be said about the Hair Room, the Face Room and Clothing Room. It is going to take time and patience to learn it all, and yes, you may be like me and end up feeling overwhelmed. Give it time, practice... if you truly want to use the powerful tools that Poser 5 has, be patient... If you want to just pick up, dabble or do images quickly and efficiantly and don't want to take allot of time relearning Poser... stick with Poser 4. It is still a valuable tool. As for bugs. Yes, Poser 5 has bugs. If anyone tells you differently then they are decieving you. Nor am I going to list them, they are there, even Steve Cooper admitted they're there. Will I be using Poser 5 or support it? Not just yet. For those of you that visit Poser Pros or read my other threads, my reasons are explained there. Maybe, in time, I will be able to comfortably use it. At this point, till the concerns that I have are satifactory met, I will be sticking with Poser 4 and Pro Pack and will fully support those applications and Curious Labs. And this is my point folks... Poser 5 may not be for everyone. It may not work the way you want it too, it may not be fast enough, professional enough or just to damn hard to learn... regardless, Poser 4, Pro Pack and ARE worth supporting. And also let me say this... even though I am disappointed in Poser 5 and wont be using it at this time, I respect the fact that Steve Cooper has come to the Community sites and said that there are still issues that need to be resolved. If you are uncertain about the purchase of Poser 5, then don't purchase it. Or wait till you are satisfied enough to do so. But still support Curious Labs for their other products in the meantime. Just like the life of Poser 3 didn't end when Poser 4 came out, or Poser 4 ended because Pro Pack came out, the life of other Curious Labs products WILL NOT END because Poser 5 has been released. Products will still be developed for them, not everyone will update right away... or ever. So don't throw the baby out with the bath water, just because you don't like the new version they came out with. Sorry for the length of this post... just felt it needed to be said. Jack

*"go and rent a Pixar movie, or Final Fantasy, or for that matter any other 3D animated feature that has been released in the last decade. All of them have used the Reyes rendering technique."* That may be true But Pixar and squaresoft used something that CL totally ignored in their New Reyes/Raytrace hybrid engine..a proper lighting system and multipass rendering. Look at final fantasy and you see volumetric visble lighting that simulate bright spotlights, haze,airborn Dust and fog. and All of this data is renderd in Separate passes(SEE PIC) that is composited to get the final incredible visiual sequences you see in those movies.. CL took a basic Reyes scanline/raytraced hybrid renderer and dropped it into poser with nothing else to support it. Hence we see renders that offer no Great improvements over the the old P4 renders. *"Bryce is the all time best renderor there is."* IM sorry but that statement is just plain false :-) i started using bryce back in version2 and while it creates beautiful renders its a "Dumb" raytracer in that it makes no distinction between wood and water and raytraces EVERYTHING in your scene. An adaptive or "smart" render engine (Like Cinema4DXL or Lightwave3D) will use a Phong algorithim to only raytrace those elements in a scene that actually need raytracing ( reflective and refractive,transparent surfaces). And while bryce offers volumetric visible lighting with "volumetric world" enabled the render times for a single artist with one machine are not practical for simple 6 second animations as they go from hours to **DAYS** even **WEEKS** in some cases.

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Jackson, the first "bug" reported was not a bug, but a problem where models with backfacing polys were removed in draft mode, easily fixed by unchecking "remove backfacing polygons" and it only happend in draft mode. I have been watching the forums closly before and after release. I have yet to see one problem that is repeated between users that A-cannot be fixed by changing your settings or B pertains to p5. Yes people are mad that they didn't change some things, and yes people are having some problems but from what I see it may not be poser directly. Sorry Jackson, but I have yet to see these bugs reported to mass populace. Perhaps CL will give us a update report when the release the patch to tell those of us with out problems (I will say so far) what they are fixing exactically. I agree with you Jack that P5 may not be for everyone. If you're looking for the next high end app...perhaps you should save your money, if your want to continue to use a nice character app with some new tools we didn't have before than by all means buy, but expect to spend some time learning. As for what people see in bryce over 3ds, or lightwave...the answer is price. Bryce is the best "affordable" renderer around.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

Legume: "To start labeling a group that way is one of those cheap-ass maneuvers that I've seen pop up time and again on these forums" You mean like the label, "whiners?" I believe I've been seeing that label quite a while now. Including the one you started with the starving child. Talk about a cheap-ass maneuver. At least I was nice with my label, it's not insulting. I was going to use "The K.B.K." but decided against it. Tirjasdyn: " the first "bug" reported was not a bug, but a problem where models with backfacing polys were removed in draft mode" That's not a bug? Is the program supposed to do that? Just because there's a work-around for something doesn't mean it's not a bug. Oh, and for something to be a "bug" it has to effect everyone? I didn't know that, chalk it up to my inexperience. And by the way, the XML problem is HUGE and does effect everyone. People have gone as far as reinstalling XP to try and solve it.

Thanks for that mature dig at me Jeff. Really cool man. My concerns are totally legit by anyones standards. No need to call me a whiner for voicing them.

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tirjasdyn: i don't understand how can you ignore this many posts reporting bugs and troubles with p5 and it's interface. nobody is questioning what can p5 do, the new features, but it's handling. the interface causes more problems then it solves and there's undersandably a lot frustration involved. even kupa said that thea are some serious bugs in it, and that they are working on patches. considering the fact (also from kupa) that they didn't get payed for some months (and they need money like everyone) it is clear that cl used it's customers for a little financial refreshement and put a product that wasn't ready on the market. even though this causes some grievences in this community given a lot of personal connections between cl and customers, i'd wish that this discussion would be more of a civilized sort. vulgarity doesn't help much.

I've been a huge Joe Satriani fan since his first recording. And every time he releases a new CD I rush out and buy it because I'm expecting it to sound a certain way. And every single time without fail. I am initially disappointed because he created something way different than "Surfing with the Alien" and "Flying in a Blue dream". The strange thing is........After I listen to the new stuff a few times. I always end up liking it better than the previous stuff. P5 is kinda like that. It's not what you expected. And it's a let down at first. But the more you play with it for a while on a machine that can handle it. The more you see it's a much better product than P4. Humans don't like change. But change is good. :-) ScottA

Wolf Regarding the Reyes renderer you are very close to my point. The fact is that with this technology Poser users should have much higher expectations in terms of performance and quality. The fact is that CL screwed it up. A basic Reyes implementation - even without ray tracing, should have given us a much better quality and better performance than Firefly seems to achieve. Pixar don't actually use raytracing (except for a few frames in Bugs life) and don't use a lighting system that is any more sophisticated than Poser's. A lot of atmospheric effects are illusions created with solid geometry objects, and reflective surfaces are almost always implemented using environment mapping. Professional animators avoid raytracing like the plague, because at the end of the day (rendering) time is money and if you can fool people with a scan line render at a fraction of the cost, then that's sufficient. Tirjasdyn - I hate to break it to you, but the back face polygon culling problem is very definitely a bug. This routine is one of the simplest and most basic pieces of optimisation used in rendering. It requires a simple vector product calculation and test for the sign of the result. Back face polygon removal is very important for anyone who wants to optimise rendering speed and does not care about about reflected rays - especially animators. I have never seen any renderer fail to implement this correctly. When I was university it was one of the very first things I was taught abount 3D graphics. I find it almost inconceivable that CL could have screwed up the arithmetic in first place, let alone fail to spot it and correct it before release. Saying that a bug isn't a bug because users can disable the functionality leads naturally to the the concept that software bugs do not exist at all, where any software use is optional. Bill

"Thanks for that mature dig at me Jeff."

I suppose it's about as mature as posting a "public stance" on a piece of software. Who cares? Is it an ego problem?

"My concerns are totally legit by anyones standards."

You're right they are, but no more "legit" than anyone else's.

I've heard more nonsense than I can't stand is all. This is a really inexpensive piece of software, you don't have to mortgage your house or sell your car to get it.

There is no life effecting decision; this isn't brain surgery or cancer.

People complain like their limbs are being aputated or something.

Max, Lightwave, and C4D are all great apps - those that like them better please go to it and leave Poser behind for the rest of us.

I'm done.

-Jeff

I'm not ignore that people have problems, I am saying that I have not seen very many problems that happen cross platform to everyone, that is the only definition of bug that I am aware of.(besides the kind that crawl around) Bill as far as I am aware, it was a model problem. You explaination could be correct, but I don't know any more about it. I'll believe you and choc it up to two "bugs" according to the definition I was taught.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

NO I absolutely will NOT "leave poser behind "for the rest of you the CG Humanoids,robotsand awesome free Dinosaurs( thanks!!) that are easily animated in poser are an important aspect of my CG work im not bashing poser5,as a mac user I dont have itand likely wont be buying it . not becuase of the "bugs" real or imagined but because ,for me poser4 pro provides all that i need from poser to bring CG figures easily into my main 3D applications. I hope CL fixes any actual BuGS IN THIS RELEASE and poser continues to thrive.

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ron says: {Brent You can do the same thing in the face room on Vick or Mike with morph putty. } Except take a photograph and make a matching morph. That to me is the functionality of the Face Room that most people are after. To be fair, CL did state that it will only work on the P5 figures in these forums, but they don't state it in their sales literature. Based on what we saw of the cost of having a character made 'face room ready" ($30,000 per figure in case you missed it), I doubt that DAZ, DSI or any other modeler will be able to afford to do it for their figures. Jeff, says: {My sole purpose in this forum is to help people learn poser..all versions of it. I don't moderate.} Then why are you listed as a moderator of this forum? You can help people as a member. There isn't anything wrong with people expressing there concerns, even their gripes about Poser 5 in these forums. That's the purpose of these forums. Communication about the programs. Potential customers are free to make their own decisions based on what people are saying, good and bad. Most rational people are going to toss out comments by the rabid supporters AND the rabid detractors and listen to the people in the middle. Many of them will admit that there are things they like and things they don't like about the program. Don't assume that because someone expresses dissatisfaction that they are merely a whiner and are trying to bash Curious Labs. If everybody keeps silent, Curious Labs will think they have nothing to fix and then wonder why people aren't buying. It really is to their benefit to hear everything people are thinking. They couldn't ask for better market research. And it's free for them!

Please guys I agree with all of you, but buy the stupid upgrade and help these guys at CL. It's cost is a fraction of a decent plugin in 3DS Max and goes a whole lot further. Help support CL and just keep at their heels to fix the bugs. Reality dictates that it is all we can do. Besides what really competes with this simple and beautiful program. What other program could do so much in so little time with such little effort. Include Mimic, BVH files and a few DAZ utilities and its amazing what can be done with a program that costs under 400 bucks. Just think about it!!!!