Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=10436

You buy the character, You buy the Pose, You buy the props, You buy the light set, You buy the textures, What is actually left for you the "artist" to do? well maybe a little postwork.. but no not any longer. This would be rather funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

Hmmm This seems like the Poser equivalent of 'Paint By Numbers'. Still....it's a big market and there's room for everything. mac

I'm not criticising Eowyn for the item. As you say it's a big market, supply and demand and all that but at the top of the page it says "Online graphic artist's (sic) community" Oh well care in the community.

I'd look at items like this the same way I would view any texture I buy: as a starting point. Others would buy a texture and leave it as is. Room for both. But I can actually see some value in this, particularly if you're not that versed in Photoshop.

What's pathetic about it?? That I don't have time to learn PS?? Yah, you could say that - but I could also certainly say I don't have time to learn how to add custom aftermarket graphics to my car either. Not that I couldn't do it given the time & inclination.

Nah - these are 'goodies', I think. Figure that most 'art' ('cause I know your definition of art is your own) is for personal taste - not always for the public, even tho we offer up our workings for others to see. If I have an image & want to see what it'd look like with a certain effect on it - woe to me for not knowing the ins and outs of PS - but someone has nicely placed a number of effects in the marketplace that someone else may find value in and therefore shells out the money to be able to further enhance or experiment with on their image.

You know what this reminds me of really?? Going to a craft show and seeing things I know I could make and gazing in wonderment & shock at the prices. Then coming upon a booth with a sign that says "Yes, you could make it too - but will you?"

Tisa, Do you feel cheated? Unappreciated as an artist? Does this type of post make you feel better about yourself? Or are you just annoyed? You've already expressed in earlier messages that you don't think anyone here is an 'artist', so I'm curious why you continue to post here? I'm not trying to stop you from posting, I'm just baffled about your intentions (assuming it's not merely trolling). People will continue to make products and if there's a demand for them, people will buy them - I don't think there's any reason to insult merchants for making products people want. Technology will continue to move forward and will therefore encroach on areas formerly done manually... this may raise the bar for getting appreciation as an 'artist' (apparently Poser itself has already raised it beyond reach in your eyes), but it doesn't diminish the 'art' itself. If the images here are pleasing to you, view and enjoy them. If they're not... well, uhm... respectfully: Go Somewhere That They Do. Cheers, - Keith

Cinema4D Plugins (Home of Riptide, Riptide Pro, Undertow, Morph Mill, KyamaSlide and I/Ogre plugins) Poser products Freelance Modelling, Poser Rigging, UV-mapping work for hire.

If you look at my day (in another message) you'd understand that if someone, anyone can get a character, clothing, and/or prop to work as "expected" in P5 then that might be something I'd consider buying. frustrated, Frustrated, FRUSTrated, FRUSTRATED!

Tisa, I think it is always a good thing to lower the "initial hurdle". Two reasons: 1. If it CAN be made easy, then make it easy. Whether something is easy or hard should have nothing to do with its artistic merit. The artist can then spend their time elsewhere in the process. Do YOU mix your oil paints from pigments, like the Renaissance masters did? ;) 2. Once someone has mastered what can be done using available effects and actions, they will know more of what is possible, and have a sense of "I can do it". This will inspire some to go on to learn deeper use of tools, and greater self expression. 3. Those who don't go on, will still have accomplished more than they could. Isn't that great? 4. You aren't perhaps feeling a tiny bit threatened that someone will think they can do art easily, devaluing YOUR creative efforts? Fear not. Remember when the Mac first came out, and EVERYONE could make documents full of a plethora of fonts? The result was amusing, yes? Eventually every advance sorts itself out... -- ToolmakerSteve

Anyone who thinks 3D art is easy because we don't create every single component ourselves, or thinks that the software does everything for you so therefore it isn't really art...really doesn't have any idea what it involves. Sure, sometimes, some things come easily, almost too easily to really want to take credit for it. Then again, be able to recreate a vision from your imagination and your heart, to share with others is really all art is. Does it matter what your tools are? Yes, you can purchase every single component to an image, right down to the camera, but it still takes skill to be able to put those things together in a way that evokes feeling, that truly embodies your artistic vision. All of those things will need to be modified to really communicate what you are trying to say/show.

Have you seen the amount of feedback for that product Tisa? Look's like you're the only one who doesn't like it.

You buy the easel
You buy the paint
You buy the brushes
You buy a Bob Ross book (Well... some ppl have to.)
You buy the camera
You buy the film
You wait for something cool and pretty to show up so you can take a picture of it (Oh BTW... your same question, did you create Chloe, did you make the lighting used for that pic? I guess what I want to know is did you make anything yourself on that photo???
You drop it off at the photo lab....
What is left for the artist to do is have a thought process. I see by your gallery you can pull one of those up. (Nice hairy arm pits btw.) :D
So what. people buy props, characters, etc. Some have skills that exceed everyone elses, therefore they are the ones that model.
Some of the post work done to pics (you have some on yours too :P) is art just the same. Post work isn't easy for everyone. I am not really a PS user, I prefer PSP, we don't get to use actions for that, but, I do have PS, and I have used an action or two. Cool thing about actions is that it shows you the steps as it goes. THAT does help a person learn how to do the effect themself. Art is about learning, and open mindedness.
Ok, before I break the TOS and say what I really feel, I am going now. But, thank you, oh Great one, for again sharing your all knowing artistic wisdom, and making us all see the light of what art is and isnt, and how it should be created.

Yes virtual site I can see the point of using a bought item as a starting point but to buy every single element in the composition and not even attempt to do ones own postwork is the point where I think it's getting ridiculous. There is no way an image produced in that fashion cab be called art or at least not ones own art. It is the art of the vendor. I can also see a use for PS actions I use them all the time for repetative work but if someone is going to shell out $600 or %700 or whatever it is now surely they can learn the very basics such as auto contrast button, colour correction, desaturate etc without having to buy actions to do it for them. Maybe the next really succesful merchant will be the one who actually makes the complete image on request. "Tisa, Do you feel cheated? Unappreciated as an artist? Does this type of post make you feel better about yourself? Or are you just annoyed?" No Spanki none of those things. Thanks for asking. the rest of your response is very creative with the truth or to put it simply for you it is untrue. I've never I've never said "I don't think anyone here is an 'artist'" so please dont misquote me nor have I insulted Eowyn. so if you wish to debate this point please stick to reality and the truth. Momcat I did not say "Anyone who thinks 3D art is easy because we don't create every single component ourselves, or thinks that the software does everything for you so therefore it isn't really art...really doesn't have any idea what it involves." Again please do not misquote me and try reading before you respond. Yes I have you seen the amount of feedback for that product pdblake. That is what saddens me. It's remarkable that so many people pay such a large amount of money for what I believe to be the best image editing software around and then have to buy actions to do the perform the simplest of funtions that they could do after a 10 minute reading of the manual

Briggie LOL you have really missed the point completely haven't you?

Nope, I sure haven't missed anything. You come in here constantly whining about who is an artist and who isn't. Now you are whining about what makes a real artist, and putting down someone who is a great person for what they have choosen to offer to the community. All your points that you made about Eowyn can be made about all forms of art, even the ones on your gallery. That was my point. You missed that I guess. Oh but wait, your point is the only one that means anything, for you are the one and only source of all that is art. Forgive me for thinking I was entitled to an opinion.

Well first, this forum has been an excellent resource. The products and the market prove that. I still think that the fact that all of these "extras" encourage and demonstrate to the newer person the steps it takes to create an image which satisfys them in terms of their learning and further encourages them to continue using poser is a benefit to everyone. What seems to be the complaint is that all the technical work has been taken out of the steps, well ok. But there are still choices on which lights, what after effect, what pose and what props and backgrounds....these images do not just happen just because there are presets....but a person who has a visual reward for choosing the right things will experiment more and will gain confidence faster. Yes yes yes, the old fashion way may be better because you develop your own "library" but that final image still is a matter of choosing from the tricks and tools each of us have learned... I think it is great that we still have tutorials and we have the vendors making presets as well....time is our enemy and we are all wanting to get those poser folk to take a great image....each person is able to start at their own level....

In a sense I can understand what you're saying. Simply because I have decided that I'm going to learn everything by doing it. I do photography, - I've started modelling (a whole different world than posing), I pose and make animations in Poser, - I render in Bryce. I make most of the textures myself. I do my own postwork (has taken me a couple of years to be efficient and pretty OK with Photoshop, - Photopaint and other graphical programs). In short, - the learning curve for getting to use all of these programs is darned high. I have the luxury to have this as a hobby, - and I can spend a lot of my time playing and learning. With all the difeerent - and sometimes weird interfaces you can imagine how long time it will take to be a good user of: Photoshop, Amapi, Poser, UV-mapper, Bryce, Terragen (to get decent skies in Bryce), cr2-edit, and a dozen of other small and large utility programs. I guess I am a person like you, who likes to bake a cake from scratch. As a matter of fact, I often feel like I'm harvesting the corn and grinding to get the flour as well. I think that it's time to say it's OK to buy a cake-mix. The cake might look well, - and taste great without doing everything from scratch. There are so many "philosophies" out there. Some are "purists" and say that if you don't make a render completely in Poser, - it's not "Poser-art". I don't share that view, but I respect those who feel that way. Britt

Tisa, I understand the theory; please show me the reality. Please point me to an image where someone bought "every single element in the composition and not even attempt to do ones own postwork". I haven't seen one. Second, why does it bother you so much? I understand minor annoyance, but it seems you feel more strongly than that. Please help me understand.

Just my two pennies worth. Look at what DJs do these days: they take snippets of original music, mix them together in a hap hazard manner, and then call it a record. Is that art? Are they really artists?Fat Boy Slim would think so. Even tho a loop from his "Praise You" song was taken from an original, and whose original artist wasn't too happy about it. But thats beside the point. He would still consider himself, and other DJs, to be artists. Even tho all they do is recombine pieces of other people's work and pass it off as their own. What we do with these 3D software is no different.Furthermore, thats the intention of the software makers!Within limits, of course. Damien Hurst stuck a dead sheep in a tank of formaledhyde. He didn't create the sheep, the forces of evolution/God/whatever did. Mozart didn't build the piano he used to create music; Van Gogh didn't build his own easel or make his own brushes, to paint the Sunflowers. It's been said in the previous posts: the creativity and imagination of the end user defines them as an artist. Doesn't matter if they haven't literally created anything themselves. Of course, being able to say that you built the model, whatever, yourself, is an ego boost ;) JoeBlack

Tisa - you've hit on one thing (albeit in a round-about way) that I have a issue with - with myself. I do not consider myself an 'artist' for many of the reasons you put forth - a lot of what I use is not directly made by me. The textures, props, lights, clothing, figure, etc. There are only two things which I would lay claim to as having 'created' (available in my freestuff) and I needed a starting point to even do those. Much the same way an interior decorator takes a bunch of premade/prebought items and compiles a beautiful room - so is my endeavor with what I create in Poser. There are instances in which I modify textures, change them, mess with the lighting a little bit - but nothing major or horribly original. So - I tend to call myself more of a 'compiler'. While I do have PS - I've had PSP longer & am much more familiar with it & use it to do my postwork - yes, I do my own postwork.

If not for all the talented and giving people of this community - the visions which populate my overactive (and yes, perhaps cliche) imagination could never be born. To me it would feel like I was doing a primal scream in a room full of people and they couldn't hear me. Hopeless......helpless...... - thank god for Poser and its community. :) So, revile me for my lack of ability - but my comfort comes from having these tools and items - and any judgement of me for that reason falls on deaf ears.

Also - I learned something new today - I didn't know that when you do an 'action' in PS - that you see all the steps. :) Now, what an interesting way to learn something - in reverse. L It tends to be the best way for me to finally understand something - reading a manual literally makes me tired.

I don't consider myself an artist so I should probably shut up...actually, I should probably shut up most of the time g and have probably pissed off everyone here at least once, should've, could've, would've...yeah...well... but, I don't think anyone has the right to ridicule anybody else's work; be that work an image, a product or an idea. I drive 100 miles round trip to work (and I don't have a "crap" job) daily, I have 4 horses, 2 dogs and take care of this place myself. I live 30 mile out of town (opposite the direction I drive to work, of course) so if I run out of toilet paper it's a 60 mile drive I have no graphics background other than what I've been able to teach myself, and I'm not very good at staying focused...or else, as I suspect, there's so much wonderful stuff out there to learn, where the hell do you start? g Anyway, the point of this is...I'll buy any damned thing that I think will help me, even if it helps me realize that I'm spending too much money So there Tisa

"I've never said "I don't think anyone here is an 'artist'" so please dont misquote me..." Ok, I'll let your own words speak for themselves... http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=863235 - "Does anyone know of any sites where people create art with Poser rather than throwing together a few products and hitting the render button?" Clearly, people who 'create art' could be called artists... you are looking for a site with artists. ~shrug~. (same thread) - "There are one or two people who are very good crafts people but not found anything yet that I would clasify as great, or even not so great, art." ...you refer to members here as 'crafts people', not 'artists'. "Skillfull yes but art.. not in my opinion." ...again, if it's not art, it was not created by an 'artist'. Me: "You've already expressed in earlier messages that you don't think anyone here is an 'artist'..." I stand by that... I didn't quote you to start with, I said that you'd "expressed" the sentiment. If you read your quotes above, I think it's pretty clear that: a. you don't find anything here that you consider art. b. and therfore you don't refer to anyone here as an artist. c. and only a few people rise to the 'crafts person' status. If you think I've misrepresented you or quoted out of context, the link is provided above - you and anyone else are free to read it themselves. "if you wish to debate this point please stick to reality and the truth." I don't really care to debate it... the reality and truth is in your quotes above. I asked you why you post these things and you didn't answer, you just seem to want to debate it, which is what I feared. Have fun, - Keith

Cinema4D Plugins (Home of Riptide, Riptide Pro, Undertow, Morph Mill, KyamaSlide and I/Ogre plugins) Poser products Freelance Modelling, Poser Rigging, UV-mapping work for hire.

Ooops.. I left something out... "This would be rather funny if it wasn't so pathetic" ... "nor have I insulted Eowyn" ...well, you were either insulting Eowyn or anyone who bought the product - I guess it doesn't really matter except that it's a better troll if you can insult a lot of people at once, so you're on the right track ;).

Cinema4D Plugins (Home of Riptide, Riptide Pro, Undertow, Morph Mill, KyamaSlide and I/Ogre plugins) Poser products Freelance Modelling, Poser Rigging, UV-mapping work for hire.

surely they can learn the very basics such as auto contrast button, colour correction, desaturate True enough. I teach Illustrator and PS as extensions courses at one of our local colleges. Know I get them interested in the power of Photoshop? By giving them an action and then taking it apart. Some people will learn from these, others won't. The ones who won't probably aren't artists -- I daresay not even craftspeople :) -- the ones who do are. Room for all, ma'am.

It brings into focus the major complaint that other graphic artists have about Poser users - that we are just software users, button pushers. If all the steps in the process are automatic, machine-generated, then where's the human element of creativity? Critics will say we just end up with endless series of images that are clones of each other, mass-produced. Same faces, same hair, same clothes, same temples, same poses, same swords, same dragons, same fairies ad nauseum. Personally I disagree with the anti-Poser snobbery. I think it can be a real tool towards some original and creative art, and the critics complaints don't have an artistic basis - just a dismissive attitude of elitism, segregation and exclusion because they feel insecure and threatened by anything new. They're stuck in the past with their pencils and smudged-up papers and other 17th century technology. They think everyone should be held down by the same burden, that art is only for the elite, superior supermen of esthetics.

since our galleries are so vast, i normally click on the pictures that show something that i think is cool looking. for instance, an interesting character, a pretty gown, or a dramatic background....even a cool hairdo. i respect those who made such things. however, when i see....which is most of the time....renders where all the cool stuff is made by someone else, i respect the person who made the cool stuff a whole lot more than the person who assembled the cool stuff into a render. still, if that person used a cool pov, or did their own dramatic lighting....even very detailed postwork, they will get some of my respect. the renders that utilize pose, lights, characters, clothing and backgrounds all made by others, may be nice to look at, but, to me, they are more of "product showcases" than anything else. there are artists, here. it is not fair to imply that those who make the lovely characters, backgrounds, lighting sets, hair, clothing and poses that others purchase are not. i just think more of us should be trying to go a little farther with poser....if susy can make an awesome character, where is it written in stone that jennie needs susie's character. jennie could learn to make her own, with some effort, i bet.

I have always consider Poser closer akin to photography than to painting. When I started with Poser I had some familiarity with photography, but no background with painting (computer or otherwise). With Poser, I set up my scene like I would a photo shoot. I don't need to create my model, props, and such from scratch. These are simply elements that go into making the scene. How I arrange the figures and props, ligth the scene, and place the camera, etc., is what makes or breaks the picture. The fact that I use a filter to alter or enhance the natural sunlight or a certain lens or film speed to take the picture, is that cheating? But then there are those who do not consider Photography to be art. Anyone can buy a camera and take a picture. No talent needed. But to paint a picture and have it praised as a work of art. That takes talent, a refrigerator, some magnets, and a warm heart and lots of hugs and kisses to bestow on the artist! :O)

Here we go again - is it art if you use a tool that does the drudgery for you? IMHO - that depends on whether it's art ;o) Good ideas and creative vision has little to do with whether or not you can handle a brush, a wacom or a mouse. Just for the record : the images in the accompanying pic span a decade starting with traditional tools, moving thru Painter, and ending with Poser. I can do PICTURES with all those tools - I'm still no ARTIST, because I have no particular vision or ideas (working on it desperately, though ;o) ). As for the item that seeems to have spurred this thread - adding a touch of magic to a boring, uninspiring pic, IMHO, just means you have a magically boring and uninspiring pic. I won't claim I know what art is, I'm still trying to figure it out - just wanted to put in my 0.2 before this thread (like many others) discourages some of the start-ups who just might have real artistic vision that Poser can set free.

Thip, you are not an Artist. You are better than that! :O)

This may be an aside to the general thread but I can't agree with what Poppi seems to be saying. Maybe I have it backwards, but to my way of thinking the one who creates a character, texture, prop or whatever is the craftsman - the builder of something from nothing. The one who then takes all these elements and uses them to create an image which stirs something in the heart of the viewer is the artist. Like I say, maybe my view of what an artist is or isn't is all wrong but for the life of me I can't look at a texture map and think of it as art. Jack

Well let's see a traditional artist would buy the model/texture included (or at the very least pay for their time) buy the props buy proper lighting equipment buy the canvas buy the oils charcoal, pencils, camera film or reproducer of choice So what's left? - oh that's right the "vision" You use Poser as well so I would take a guess that you aren't an artist by your own standards. you didn't make the box or vicky and her freestuff texture after all...

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

wow, thip!!! very nice.

I really don't know just why you let Tisa get under your skin, guys.

not under my skin chuck - just making a point :-]

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

And I read your point. It was well made. But it just took me nearly 3 minutes to have this thread show up (R'City not so fast these days). Assuming other people are experiencing the same "speed" (grin), I'd think they'd rather put their waiting to a more useful purpose...not one wasted on a person like this. I kinda figured people would remember her last controversial message thread and then consider the source and move on. But, as people say, ya gotta do what ya gotta do...hehe. Take care Silver!

Hrmmm.... I'm a little confused here. I don't have VS's background of teaching PS and Illustrator, but I'm reasonably adept with both. I've literally spent hours designing photoshop and illustrator actions to automate repetitive imaging tasks that I know I'm going to do often - old rule of thumb: if you do it more than 3 times the same way, make an action of it and save it. Frees up time better spent experimenting with new techniques. I'll also go to various photoshop sites and download free actions and brush presets if I see something that will be useful and save me a few minutes down the road. How is spending effectivly 60 cents an action substantially different? Assuming I care to spend the money, it's MY money... shrug As far as artist, I always liked an old co-workers term "I'm a commercial graphics technician". ;] Man thip... I need to browse your work more often. Very cool. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

There are only 26 letters in the English alphabet yet they can be rearranged and combined to express anything imaginable. There are probably thousands of different characters, poses, light sets, and textures, available for Poser that can all be varied even further and then combined to express anything imaginable. Add to that the old saying that "a picture is worth a thousand words". Combining all of these things is an Art, how can you doubt that? Especially after looking at the galleries?

yes, but what of those who basically use presets, with not even enough care to uncross vicki's eyes? what i see are quite a few folks who use the newest market characters, lights, poses, textures, backgrounds, etc....and that's it. they expect these "tools" to be doing the creating for them. i mentioned in my first post....an interesting pov, some dramatic lighting can get some respect from me. there are many who upload 3 in one day...and, they all look just like the "stock" products that can be purchased....and positioned smack dab in the middle of a huge render of a purchased background. i think this may kind of be what tisa is talking about...at least in part.

"Momcat I did not say "Anyone who thinks 3D art is easy because we don't create every single component ourselves, or thinks that the software does everything for you so therefore it isn't really art...really doesn't have any idea what it involves." Again please do not misquote me and try reading before you respond." I was not quoting you, therefore, I could not have misquoted you. Please do not accuse me of doing such and try reading before you respond. You may be trying to get one point across, but the way you do it implies something else entirely. Your post implies that purchasing all of these items is all that is required of the artist, and that no further skill is now required. that, in essense, anyone can use these items and call themselves an artist, without involving any of that nasty blood, sweat and tears, that "real" artists put into their work. This seems to be what bothers you. I could be wrong, but I call it as I see it. I think your focus is misdirected at the tools an artist uses. Art goes beyond ones tools. I happen to think that a great many of the artists here are stuck. Their images are technically excellent, but they lack soul, and quite frankly, many of them look like variations of the same theme. These artists have all influenced eachother so heavily, that it becomes difficult to tell one from another. I often find myself going from image to image in the galleries and seeing the same lifeless (though stunningly executed)images recreated over and over again. I would be more concerned with the stagnation of original creativity than I would be with the use of purchased tools.

also, i think art requires time and thought. folks who can cough up 3 renders a day, perhaps could be thinking more...just sitting back, not rendering....and feeling a bit..music helps. my last render (to poser gallery)took 3 weeks, maybe, a little longer. and, i like it. you may not, your neighbor may think it sucks, but, i like it. i had a vision. i did my best to make a picture and show it to others. and, i think i did that. at the speed poser renders, and, the speed this place runs (sometime) at....rendering and uploading may take as much time as the actual creation of some of those 3 pic a day folk. or am i just slow?

Poppi, I see that too; and it also bothers me. What bothers me even more are the oohs and ahhs some of these artists get, and like I said, while perhaps excellently executed, there's still that Vicky in a vogue pose with the default expression. YUp, her hair is perfectly painted, her gown and skin textures flawless, the scene so romantic or heroic, the lighting oh so dramatic...she could care less. There is no light within.

If it lets someone achieve the result they want without plagerising, that's what matters. 'Nuff said.

Momcat...you've got it!!! the light within. nicely put. i think this may bother quite a few of us. maybe, this is what bothers tisa. and, you are right about the 25 oohs and ahhs. to test this: simply give a honest...no, strike that....sugar coated, trying to be honest but glowing...and see how you get flamed. possibly even a troll, by these folks. however, no one can force growth on anyone in the galleries.

Too true.

I don't see the problem here with either the vendor or the user of the product. My best wishes all of them. The vendor has found a way to create a product that is useful to alot of obviously happy people, who in turn feel better about their final creation. Why would you possibly want to tear that down and knock these people? Many in this community (myself included) don't even consider ourselves to be artists, but hobbyists. We enjoy feeling a part of a group of people who really are artists capable of producing genuinely good work such as the examples shown by Thip, and having the opportunity to communicate with them. No delusions of immortal greatness or historical significance with my work for sure.
The goal of improving software is ultimately to provide better results for the user, and I, as one who will not ever posess any natural CG gift, appreciate it. I know people who don't even consider any creation generated on a computer to even BE art; but would claim that a torched bicycle rewelded into a contorted configuration is. Without people like us Tisa, you wouldn't have the yardstick you need against which you need to measure your obvious brilliance.

Wow what a lot of messages since I went away. Momcat if you weren't adressing that origional comment to me I aplogise. Poppi and Momcat Yes I agree with you entirely. You have put across the point I am trying to make. I have nothing against Poser it's self I use it regularly. As for all the other silly mis quotes and flaming above I'll just ignore.

Heh. It probably wasn't intended to work that way, but one thing this thread [and others like it] did is get people like me to follow the link, look at the product, and decide wether it's something we can use or not. ;] Might not be the kind of exposure Eowyn would like, neccessarily, but it's probablly gotten that page a lot of hits to see what the fuss is about. And even negative promos that gets one a few sales and exposure is all for the good. grin Seriously, Eowyn does good work and a lot of people know that, so I'm not sure if this even qualifies as "negative exposure". People that already like Eowyn's products will keep that in mind and choose accordingly.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

We have a beginner's gallery. Why don't we have a separate gallery or forum for the advanced artists....one that solicits highly critical feedback in order to produce the evolution of better 3D art. And those of us who don't pretend to be artists and don't care about artistic pretentions and don't have much interest in the opinions of the art critics and are just trying to have a good time and enjoy ourselves don't have to participate unless and until we are ready to evolve to that higher level? And those of us who are still learning can use the tools at hand, as we wish and without criticism because there will be an acknowledgement that as learners we have need of tools, while the advanced artists who have evolved beyond needing such aids can produce all their art from scratch without the use of existing models, textures, or props but instead create their own, and provide proof that they have originated every item themselves (maybe the advanced gallery could have a certification program). I guess you can still use the various software programs unless the requirement is all the artists have to learn programming...could make the gallery a little small, though. Just an idea. Might help us figure out who is the real artist and who is the poser.

Good idea Dialyn but how about instead of having a separate gallery for the advanced artist, we have a separate gallery for the artist who makes an effort. and before you all start shouting again yes there are a lot of people who make a very good effort but there are a lot who don't. Hence the lack of "Light within"

The problem with having a gallery of artists who "make an effort," is who will make that determination? I'm not an artist and never will be one, so I don't have to worry about applying for application into those hallowed halls, but I do sense that the people most wanting to make that decision are too arbitrary and biased to judge fairly. A lot of people I think are "making an effort" and I envy their growth and their achievements from my seat in the amateur bandstand, but I'm glad I'm too unartistic to decide who is worthy and who is not. I keep in mind the story of Van Gogh, one of many in art history who was not considered worthy by the art critics of his time, those who thought he wasn't making the proper effort according to their judgment....my, my, isn't funny how wrong a critic can be? And yet I am sure they were self righteous in their opinion that Van Gogh had nothing to offer as he learned his craft and perfected it into art. Oh well. Bored now. Good night all.

C'mon guys, we all know that artist's ego's run big, especially around here. Granted, I know I have an ego, so I'm partly to blame as well.... However, I think that a product such as this can lead to other things. Personally when I first started using PS some 4 and a half years ago, I didn't know what I was doing and this would have helped a lot. I've downloaded a few actions and ripped them apart just to see how stuff was done. It can be used as a learning too and a jumpstart to other things. In my art, I use Poser as a tool, the same as Bryce, PhotoShop, Kai's Power Tools, actions, hand drawing, among other things. We all must keep one thing in mind, art IS subjective. What one person considers art, another may not. For that reason, stuff like the photoshop actions exist, it's a big world...let's leave people to how they want to express themselves.

My Store              My Gallery

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Remember...getting lost is the senic route to the eventual destination. (And a lot prettier than the straight road)

I think ALOT of people are missing some key points...one of which I expressed to someone only recently. The person (whom shall remain nameless at this time) was considering placing a character texture into the marketplace and has never sold anything there, before. I suggested that since it is their "first time out"...and also since alot of people don't buy textures only...it would be good to include some extras like light sets and poses to go along with it...thus making it a more atractive item to purchase..more value for the money.

"As for all the other silly mis quotes and flaming above I'll just ignore" That doesn't surprise me - if you think that they were silly things for you to say, then that's ok, but for the record, what I posted were direct quotes (very much in context if you go read that thread).

Cinema4D Plugins (Home of Riptide, Riptide Pro, Undertow, Morph Mill, KyamaSlide and I/Ogre plugins) Poser products Freelance Modelling, Poser Rigging, UV-mapping work for hire.

LOL at Spanki

I'm an artist and you're not. You're an artist and I'm not. You know it doesn't really matter because your opinion isn't the one that counts and mine means even less. Somewhere, somewhen, somebody is going to look at an image and they'll decide for themselves whether there was an artist behind it or not. So sometimes we're artists and sometimes we're hacks and either way it's okay by me. - Jack (who used to have an ego until he discovered it wasn't worth the hassle...)

okay...i am just loud mouthed poppi...who has not sold anything, here....but has survived off of my own little "private" sales. until, i moved "uptown", in what goes for my town...way, small. poser is alot of fun. it makes me a child again. yup...it makes me that little girl whose mom did not buy all the current barbie clothing...my grandmother was a dollmaker. she sent clothing. okay, the grandmother's clothing held me for a bit. but, but, but...we little girls began to tie little ribbons on our barbies....others had their moms buy new dresses. the rest of us....a little less spoiled, had our moms buy us scissors, and, materials. my mom was real stupid...but, hey mom..you up there....you were beautiful....anyway, she always bought too much material. it could be shared...doh, maybe she was smart. anyway, those of us whose mom's did not buy us the bestest, newest, grandest, for that week barbie clothing, had tons of fun making our own, with tiny stitches. i am just another product of my environment. i did go on to get a master's degreee in fine and applied art. even then i knew that that and money could get me a phone call.

Oh oh, here we go again! This topic has been rehashed over and over in the past. Ahhhh!!!! :o Melanie

"Unbelievable... Tell me this is a joke " Sorry guys, I can't let this go on. I'm going to have to spoil the fun. ["Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww! But... !} Nope. Gotta be done. You caught us out. It's a joke. See... we all got together one day in the secret merchants forum, at the behest of our ringleader, ClintH - whoshalleverbereffered to only as "C", and... being bored silly, said amongst our selves "Gee, been a long time since we had a major product rant followed by a merchant lynching, and the natives are restless". And then we all loked at each other and said "Er... so?" And "C" said "Never mind that - it's got to be done. Everyone is getting bored with Poser 5..." So, we put our heads together and hammered out a plan. And looked upon the plan and said something like "kEwL! Any volunteers?" And Eowyn, brave soul that he or she is... well, you get the picture. Don't blame Eowyn. It was mostly my idea. And it worked too. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

So, Tisa... slapping a bit of dull green on a box is your version of art? Slightly dribbling over a photo is art? What makes you the expert, or the one to make fun of utilities... you don't seem to be qualified to judge, going by your gallery. Oooooh, right... beauty is in the art of the whatever. And why the f should we have to reinvent the wheel - the tools - over and over again just because you don't like what we use? Go play in your sandbox.

L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.

Tisa you might want to check Fred Miranda's website, he sells PS actions to...oh my God...photographers

Well here is my two cents on the matter, Personally I think it is great that people make these little products to help make these programs easier to use, for beginners its great starting point and eventually it will teach them to start to do things with out these little tools, for example before I got my associates degree in programming, purchased an HTML editor, that basicly design pages for you by pressing a tool bar button it added the coding nesscary for it to work, eventually after seeing the code enough I started typing in the code by hand and fully learned html. just like these tools they are a starting point to teach you techniques. Also someone made the comment that if there things out there to make jobs easier then use them, think about this, if it wasnt for programming langues like Visual Basics, Visual C++ guess what Programmers like myself will be making all these neat little programs using binary code and if you know what the is like combantions of 1 and 0 make up one letter such as the letter A for example now imagin creating a whole program using 1 and 0's. lots and lots of typing. So with that being said then I say go on creat these products to make learning easier for us new people...:-P Dark Raven has spoken thank you all and good night

OK, so here I am again. Actually, just checking to see if people are STILL giving Tisa the attention she doesn't deserve. OK, so, I don't have a gallery worth discussing. But I don't post messages in the forum as if I'm the GOD of artistic decisions. I post comments on other people's art saying, "I might have done this or I might have done that." But I NEVER speak as if I am some sort of authority! I just say what I think about something. But, Tisa seems to think that she has the right to pop into this forum and speak as if she has some sort of authority to point at this or that and designate it as being art or not. She reminds me of people I work with. They spend too much time pondering what other people's ability are. And they do so to throw ... Never mind. When she has a gallery that can compare with the incredible galeries I have seen here, then, coupled with some sort of respect, can she make the comments she has made here. But from what I have seen, she needs something this community can't give her.

I have a friend who can find Prada, Versace, Gucci, Louis Vuitton, etc (you get the point) at Kmart prices.

Now that's art!

By the way, how's the air up there Tisa?

You are lumping all poser users into some same category of equal ability with these little arguements of yours. Many people have pointed out galleries where people have taken poser beyond it's limits and I guarantee you there are newbies here today that will be able to do the same in the future.
Is it art? Hell yes. Are there plenty of newbies in the learning stages? Yes. Should those learning avoid posting work at this stage to avoid upsetting your sensibilities? Hell no.

You need to give people a break, get off your high horse and concentrate on whatever it is you want to do.

Unless of course what you want to do is create problems and not art.

...... Kendra

Attached Link: http://share.studio.adobe.com/Default.asp

Hello,

I was one of the people who bought the Photoshop actions from both Eowyn and Coleus.

I am most grateful for them and use them along with other actions I have either learned to make or downloaded.

If folks are interested in more actions here is a free website you can sign up and get many great actions for photoshop as well as other items for PS as well.

http://share.studio.adobe.com/Default.asp

Warm Regards,
Nancy Deer With Horns (SophiaDeer)

Nancy Deer With Horns
Deer With Horns Native American Indian Site

perhaps a bit mizzundaztood, but isn't the point .......... "I hate someone else's work /stuff /product then I bitch / complaint about something that doesn't make sense at all ?" whatever you are trying to say be sure that your words reflect your persona...........

I use Eowyn's photoshop actions time and time again to enhance my photographic work. I spend an unbelievable amount of time and effort to get just the right 'shot', just to have it ruined due to the fact I could never get across the right mood. My partner me both sets as a little suprise and I just love them...so no, they are no joke. They are a bloody damn good product. Cheers, -Des

Tisa, Just because some use filters, does it mean they are not putting in as much work and thought in to the image? I dont do any post work really on my images, but does that mean I should be put in a gallery meant for those who dont make an effort, even though I still spend hours posing, modelling, and texturing? Quality isnt judged by how they do the work, its how the work looks.

Not getting into the thing of 'what is art' too darn difficult. However. What is an artist? An actor is an artist (only his mum and dad made him, not an artist) The people who do the scenery aare artist. The team who make the props are artists. The one who write the story, artist scrip, artists director, artist (The person who designed the pattern on the cups in the canteen is an ptobably artist, but I digress) CGI models, artists Textures, artists Poser people, artists Take em out the box and bung em together, art!, doh! , no art ??? may need something else here. I know, AN ARTIST A piece of art can, and has been produced from anything from garbage, fruit, paints, charcoal, wood, granite, ........, and dare I say computers. The artist creates the image from imagination, and uses whatever is at his/her disposal to achieve it. I f the end result is what they set out to achieve it is successful art. If it involves, pleases, horrifies, or stirs emotion of some kind in others it can be descibed as successfull art. There always luddites knocking the next technological jump, people knocked the car, calcuator, telephone, record, any number of machines and of course computers, dismissing them as unnecessary and 'what would be left for people to do' Howevermuch comes out of the box in computer art, an artist will always have to have imagination at some level to produce something worthwhile and there will always be very talented artists pushing the envelope and producing stuff with the wow1 factor at the top level. Most of us will flounder around very happily in between. Like most things in life, Have Fun! and Support rather than knock others. Have a good one ;-)

OK, Tisa, do you create everything you use in your daily life, all yourself? Do you sheer the sheep, spin the thread, weave the cloth, then sew all your own clothes? You buy them, don't you? When you fix dinner, do you raise the cattle (or the crops), slaughter (or harvest), clean, dress, then finally cook it on cooking utensils you've made yourself from materials you've mined or created? How many oil painters out here don't go to the art supply store and buy their oil paints, brushes, canvases, etc. to complete their work? Do sculptors go out into the wilderness and dig up all their own clay? No, they buy it from an art supply store. Caligraphers go to the art supply store to buy their pens, paper, and ink. What the heck is wrong with buying the supplies needed to create digital art? How is that any different from any of the other art genres that I mentioned above? Lady, you sure opened a can of worms on yourself here. You see, this topic has been discussed numerous times over the years that I've been a member of the variious 3D art forums. You didn't come up with an original rant here. And every time it's come around again, the rest of the community proves the ranter wrong. If you find it such a waste of time and effort to create digital art, then why are you using the program and creating it yourself? The mystery of the day..... Melanie

I'm afraid anyone who considers a request to show me an example of their complaint and help me understand it to be "silly mis quotes and flaming" is unworthy of my time, so I'll bow out now.

Yes, traditional artists buy their paints and canvases, and 3D artists buy props and textures. But if a traditional painter buys a canvas with "painting by numbers" on it, one might regard the end product as less than a work of art. Some parts of the 3D creation process (for instance lighting) are an integral part of the composition. Putting in a ready-made lighting set means that the artist won't learn an important skill, and worse, will get the idea that lighting is something extraneous to the composition.

marketplace has died, can't see it, bugger! :)

im sure iv said this before but it seems ppl still dont know what are is...... art is not a pose or a texture.. and its not a camera or some paints art is using the tools you have to bring something you thought up to life from what you say tisa a sculptor has to make his own chisels and hammers... does he also have to go and cut his own stone?? 31,000 years ago little man made some drawings on a cave wall with a piece of charcoal, and they are still few of the best drawings iv seen... its note because what he used its because of how he caught the beasts... the movement, the power and the spirit and in a few simple lines when you make art its not supposed to be and effort it supposed to be a way of expressing yourself.. whether its through music, dance, software or painting you have to ask yourself why do i call myself an artist? is it because of the tools you use? or is it because of what you make? two of the greatest artist i know are the Female and the Male... when you combine those two you get the most amazing art of all.... Life and it doesn't matter what tools were use to make it so before you go condemning things stop looking through your eyes and try looking through theirs... look at what the see and look at what it really is how many ppl have looked at your work and dismissed it for rubbish without knowing the emotions and reason you made it? what im trying to say is camera's, paints, poses, texture and actions are all tools... its how you use them that makes art im guilty that as well doing that as well.. i look at a chisels and see a tool but to a blacksmith it is his art he created that with the best of his skill Eowyn is a brilliant artist and she is just sharing her tools with us... how we use them is up to us enough said i hope at least iv given you something to think about.. kyle

YES!! MEN, GRAB INTO YOUR PANTS AND USE YOUR TOOL!! Seriously though, art is the feeling and the quality of how its conveyed, not what tools were used.

Also, I forgot to add that, arent we as artists supposed to buck conformity and do our own thing? Tisa, you want use to follow rules and structure which hampers creativity.

Folks, I'd like to point out that seems to be exactly what Tisa wants. From my look at Tisa's gallery and postings this person just likes to stir people up and tick people off. So I'll continue to enjoy people's artwork on here and try to avoid the twits like this...most of the people on here are worth listening to, regardless if you agree with them or not, but this person is just doing this stuff to get a rise out of people.

Good points Phantast. Hopefully the same people who keep repeating the same old argument about painters not making their own brushes may understand a little better now. "31,000 years ago little man made some drawings on a cave wall with a piece of charcoal, and they are still few of the best drawings iv seen... its note because what he used its because of how he caught the beasts... the movement, the power and the spirit and in a few simple lines" Exactly. He or she probably did not swop a piece of mamoth for someone to do the painting for them and then trace over the top. Melanie like so many others here you completely fail to understand a very simple point.

sigh you missed it didnt you... no but they probably did use each others tools.... exactly want Eowyn is letting us do thats my point your still looking at the tools not the art

no didn't miss a thing. We all have the same tools ie Poser. What eowyn and others, who provide light sets, poses etc, are doing is doing the work for us not providing tools. The painting by numbers example quoted above is a good example. Or the cave man who borrows his mates piece of charcoal and produces an image is the artist. The caveman who traces over an existing picture and does not add anything of their own in the way of creativity is not. I really do not know how to explain it in a more simple way for you.

No Tisa, YOU miss the point! Let me see if I can lower the discussion to a level you can understand... (ratcheting word level to what MIGHT be something you can understand) Give a few ready-made props, a texture, Vicky (for example), lighting, and poses to 10 people. Let them do something with those items. Then let them post a picture. I am positive some will produce something that sucks and others will produce something that shows artistic talent. It's that simple. Now, just because the people who did well with the "tools" that were given to them doesn't mean they aren't artists. Besides the technical requirements needed to move things in Poser, one needs the ability to "see". And that's what people are talking about. I consider myself an above-average photographer. I took classes in it in college. We all had good cameras. We all had assignments. Nature awaited and some "saw" it and others did not. The people who "saw" it were more artistic than those who did not. Even though NOTHING was required other than camera and film (things "given" to them). I was amazed at the angles and ideas that people used to complete the assignment. NOW, having said that... Yes, the person who can make textures, props, etc. AND put them all into a pleasing render are more of an artist than those who pick those things up and use them equally as well. Some might say the ability to make props and textures, etc. is more technical than artistic. I wish I could do all of it, too. I can hardly do any of it, though. BUT, I don't pick on anyone or make nebulous generalized remarks like you do, either. You see, I can appreciate artistic endeavors no matter what the artist was supplied with. My advice to you is also simple. Make friends here...not enemies. And, although you are so perfect you don't need assistance, one of these days you might. There are SO many generous people here to help you it seems a shame to alienate them the way you are doing. Failing that...go somewhere else.

I just want to put my two cents in. First I need some information. Tisa how old are you? Not trying to be insulting. Being young is wonderful. Judging by Tisa's gallery most of the images smack of budding sexuality. Which makes me question her age. Also her comments. Maybe not meant as bad as they sound but just the arrogance of youth and trying to sound more experienced in the forum. Again not an insult. We were all young once ( I think) it's been a while for me. I think a new addition should be made to the old saying "never discuss politics or religion, now the addendum "art" LOL Art like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I know when I'm working on a piece no matter what it is PSP or Poser I'm always thrilled when I'm working on it then I pick it to pieces when it's through, and not satisfied with it no matter how long I work on it. I for one am very grateful for all the technology. I wouldn't want to live like Van Gogh. Most of us here have lives outside our "art" and the time saving utilities are wonderful.

ChuckEvans If someone put the film in the camera, set the exposure, aperture,set the lighting,posed the model, framed the picture without any instuctions from you and all you did was release the shutter; the picture turns out, after someone else has developed and printed it then perhaps a little dodgeing and burning, to be wonderful, who is the artist?

learning is done by exaple and copying this done before us thats how you learn.... then you add and improve on that once you know how art is in everything whether it is traced or not an action is a tool nothing else you use it to help with an effect then you improve on it you learn how that effect was created my looking at how the action was made....

Tisa if you think it's that easy, you really are clueless

Tisa: Your analgy sucks. NO ONE opens Poser and clicks on props/figures and they appear just the way you describe in a photo. They all appear in the center of the screen. Have to be moved, positioned, and sized. And while one may use pre-set lights, it doesn't always mean it goes with the scene one is picturing in one's mind. A better analogy comparing a person with a camera (that exposses the picture on fully automatic) to one working in Poser is to place the photographer in, say, a wilderness and let them "find" the art. Just as one working in Poser must "look" at the items made for them and "find" the art. If it's so easy, then go to the freebie section, get some lights, poses, some figures, textures, and props and "click" them into the poser work area, render it and post it. Do it without any planning or composition and let's just see if it's automatic art. Of course, it's easier to talk and make fun of others...isn't it? Maybe THAT's your art.

Or do you even OWN a (legal) copy of Poser?

I don't think anyone should be criticizing Eowyn. She's doing a great service to those who use Photoshop as their post render work. And her price is more than reasonable for the time she spent to put the package together. It really isn't any different than using Eye Candy or some other commercial filter or plug-in for Photoshop or PSP. So, what's the problem in that? Melanie

You are so funny Chuck.

And you sweep aside my challenge with gutless words. If it's so easy...it should only take you a few minutes to assemble some art. Put up or shut up is what I say!

Chuck be careful she might call you a meanie next

Oh wow, I go away for the weekend and miss something like this? Sad, sad me. I promise to stay home next time. First of all, Tisa, thank you so much for all the advertisement and publicity you have brought to my product. I'm very grateful that you put so much effort in helping me even though we don't even know each other. :) Secondly: Postwork Magic is supposed to be a simple tool. Tool, yes. It's meant for people who don't quite know their way around Photoshop yet. They can run the actions and then see what is included them and that way learn more about the basic functions in PS. It is one of my best selling products and I've had nothing but positive feedback on it so I'm sorry but I refuse to apologize for creating it ;) And as for the other points you have tried to make... Well, sorry, but I don't agree with you. And frankly, if you find Renderosity such a lousy place, why stay? We're not Van Goghs here but we all have our own ways of doing our artwork. If you can't appreciate other people's efforts, it says a lot more about you than about us.

Well, THAT will hurt so much! Probably have to commit suicide after a dreadful word like that. Personally, I'm just waiting to see the list of contests she has won.

Haven't we all gotten it by now? Tisa's art is drawing attention to herself. And we've helped give her the attention she wants. I have every confidence that another thread will be started by her or another to provoke more reaction from the community. That's the game. They get to feel superior by trying to set other other people on the defensive. And what is achieved? Well, maybe some useful conversation about the nature of what is or what is not art....and I'm not the one to say Poser is or is not art. It is a tool and the art comes from the person using the tool and not the tool itself. Perhaps some people are thinking more. I am pretty sure that the persona that Tisa presents has ideas locked in concrete so there is no point arguing with her alter ego. Perhaps a better question that the what is art question (which has no answer in a world that provides art awards to a string of blinking Christmas lights and pays thousands of dollars for urinals that could be bought for $75 in a hardware store), but why we care so much. Tisa talks about the light within but I don't think she sees what is going on in the galleries very well at all. The light of creativity and pride is in each poster who takes the time to say through their graphics: "I want to enjoy, I want to create, I want to have the ability to share my vision, and I celebrate the fact that someone has finally given me the tools to do what I could not do before." Poser is cooperative in nature....many hands creating each graphic. I don't see anything nonartistic in that. Leonardo da Vinci, among other great artists through time, had apprentices and helpers who worked on his masterworks. Ultimately, it is the vision of the person who brings the tools and materials and the vision together that creates the point of view of the graphic. Is that art? I don't know. I'm not the expert. I just know I see a lot of creativity on the gallery and I, for one, celebrate that effort.

"a few minutes to assemble some art" yes I like that line :)

Tisa I still have not received a reply about your age. I would appreciate some honesty here.

LOL...looks like ALOT of people simply ignored ironbear's post here...still going on and on about Tisa as if she's really a person (too funny).

Tisa's chronological age isn't really the issue, is it? After the length of this thread, the only thing I know for sure is that I wish I had Photoshop so I could take advantage of Eowyn's tool. (Any chance for a Paint Shop Pro version?) I appreciate anything that helps me learn something new.

not really but it might help me understand her. LOL I wish they had one too for us PSP users. Some of us poor people would appreciate it. ROFL

edriver shusssh... It's supposed to be a secret

.

Okay, boys and girls and artists of all ages - enough with the name calling. 105 posts is plenty - we get the point. If you want to get into a mudslinging match with each other go to the OT forum, or use IMs, okay? Don't make me have to turn this thread around! hands on hips Lyrra (moderator)

But....She started it!!!

"What eowyn and others, who provide light sets, poses etc, are doing is doing the work for us not providing tools." (shrug) - when I go mountain-climbing, I prefer to take my little Minolta QT-si instead of the Maxxum 5... the little QT calculates F-stop and shutter speed for me, so I can concentrate on capturing the shot whilst not falling off a cliff. Tisa (?), you're using the same tired argument the old photogs used when they found their years of hard-won skills rendered moot by the advent of auto-focusing auto-aperture, auto-shutter SLR cameras. Now, any fool can buy a digital camera or a cheap SLR (like the QT-si, which runs a mere $250 at Wal-Mart), slap in some Kodak 800-speed film, ship the roll off to the developers, and whomp out prints with the same technical quality as the world's best photogs. Wanna know what the difference is? It's simple: Composition, lighting, mood, and the photographer's sense of moment. Also, there is a vast difference between snapping a digicam card full of piccys of a quiet stream at the local park, and dragging one's ass and 50lb of assorted gear for 5 hours to 3200m above sea level on a steep mountainside, just to capture the first blush of autumn surrounding various places along a waterfall-laden mountain stream. I did just that very thing yesterday, and just for fun. And yes, I'd do that hike again tomorrow if the clouds come rolling in just a little... Same deal with Poser, except you get the added bonus of hanging around a computer and being on yer ass all day :) BTW - I noticed your gallery... not to be a snot or anything, but do you own the copyrights/negatives to the images you used? And if so, how much did the rights/model's time cost you, especially in the nude and doing (what appears to be) soft-core porn? I'd always wanted to venture into human model shoots, but the cost had always been a factor... a real huge factor if he/she is to get naked in the process. /P

well...i can't legally copywrite this, so will pass it along. I'd always wanted to venture into human model shoots, but the cost had always been a factor... a real huge factor if he/she is to get naked in the process. provide a "get bimboed" service to those who come for regular shots. show 'em how much fun it would be to put their face and body on a v.vicki. for what it's worth...poser does have alot of avenues, if we can get out of our temples....everything from autocrash reinactment, crime scene reinactments, "bimboing" regular folk...theatre staging. think...outside....the...box.

completely agree with you Penguinisto and Poppi. It's what I've been saying or trying to say all along.

"autocrash reinactment" Defined as: What happens with P5 on some users' systems? ;0) As for the original sentiment of the thread, I see no merit nor validity to the views that are presented. All of the items used in the example are but merely resources and tools to facilitate the resultant art. Just as painters do not mix their own paint nor weave their own canvas nor fabricate their own brushes, the Poser artists need not model their own figures to be considered an artist in their own rights. Furthermore, I seriously doubt that the majority of photographers create their own scenes to be photographed; but usually rely upon pre-existing strucures, bnature, people, etc, to create their art. The majority of artforms rely, to some extent, upon pre-fabricated materials in order for the art to be expressed.

"As for the original sentiment of the thread, I see no merit nor validity to the views that are presented. All of the items used in the example are but merely resources and tools to facilitate the resultant art." My point exactly. "Furthermore, I seriously doubt that the majority of photographers create their own scenes to be photographed; " Err, I sorta violated that maxim yesterday... by luck I found a fresh iridescent-blue dragonfly corpse (must've froze the night before), so I set it on top of a rock, photographing it as if it were a live one. There are lots of tricks and tips like that, things which you can put to use to make life easier on you. Incidentally, I don't look at myself as one who creates when I sunburn film, but rather as one fortunate enough to record the beauty that I do find. Good photography is more in Christopher Colombus' line of work than Michelangelo's... the best stuff has to be hunted down and recognized. All in all though, photography is still art, just at a different yet parallel level. Err, Tisa - if you agree with what I said, then your question as per this thread has apparently been answered ;) /P

something else to consider: even with total earnesty, someone could crush their own pigments with amazing chemical precision, sew their own canvas and gesso it into a weave as tight and smooth as silk, and paint their own painting with the finest homemade camelhair brushes to be found, taking six months to do the whole thing... but the result could well look like complete and utter dogshit. Or, it could force you to physically drop to your knees in the presence of such mastery and visual power. conversely, someone could buy a powerful computer, Vicky, a pose set, a light set, a character set, a sword (what?) some conforming clothes, enough p-shop actions to basically do all the postwork for you, a backdrop or two to stick Vicky in, and do the whole thing in less than 20 minutes, from power-on to the completion of final render. But their results could well come out with enough beauty to make a convicted wife-beater shed awestruck tears of rapture upon seeing it. Or, it could be utter dogshit too... That is a precise statement of how I feel towards art in general and the definition of what makes an artist. So if it obviously isn't the tools that make the artist, why the complaint about eowyn's product? /P

"Err, I sorta violated that maxim yesterday... by luck I found a fresh iridescent-blue dragonfly corpse (must've froze the night before), so I set it on top of a rock, photographing it as if it were a live one." Although this is true in the sense that you 'created the scene', it does still follow the same maxim: You neither created the dragonfly nor the rock (pre-existing structures; unless you have "powers" that others would be envious of), yet you combined the two (along with the lighting and other aspects) to create a photo that appeared as if the dragonfly was still alive. Therefore, in that sense, you "creatively" combined the structures and the scene elements to produce art.

"Furthermore, I seriously doubt that the majority of photographers create their own scenes to be photographed..." Actually, quite a few do. A substantial amount of photography is involved with table top work for product shots or still life. Another huge segment is fashion based. In these instances the photographers choose or control almost every aspect of the "scene", including its content. In fact, it is interesting to compare the fashion photographer to the hypothetical digital artist as per the original question. The photographer "buys" the characters when hiring the model. S/he doesn't "buy" the pose but the pose often follows the trends and styles of the moment. Props are typically purchased rather than constructed from scratch. The lighting frequently follows standard setups to achieve the desired effect. As for textures, there are limits to what one can do with a model's complexion and the clothing being advertised will certainly not be altered in in any significant manner. So what is left for the photographer to do? Apparently quite a lot- which is why some fashion photographers eat hamburger while others command fame and fortune for their stylistic efforts. - Jack

"Actually, quite a few do. A substantial amount of photography is involved with table top work for product shots or still life." Not to be argumentative nor try to derail the thread, but I would venture to say that the "majority" (key word) of photographers the world over do not "create" the scenes of which they photograph. In the example of the "table top work for product shots or still life", one could contend that the photographer did not create the table, subject, etc, that they are photographing and, therefore, they did not create the scene. I think that the quoted passage was taken out of context. Bascially, the inclusion of that statement was a direct contrast to the original poster's apparent belief that in order for art to be art, all aspects of that art must have been originally created by the artist. Therefore, to apply that mentality to the specific art of photography, one would say that every "prop" within the photograph would have to have been originally made by the photographer his-/herself in order for it to be considered art. My response is basically refuting that to be the case and attempting to show the original poster that many of the items we consider art have elements within them that were not originally created by the respective artist. To state that the art that is produced is any more or less art than someone else's depiction of art, IMHO, is absurd.

Cyberstretch, No argument. My point was that the photographers in my example created their scenes but not the individual components of said scene. In other words, what you are contending is precisely what I was saying by offering a real world and common example. Nor did I say that such photographers formed a majority, only many- certainly enough that they cannot be ignored. I think my point and your point have more in common than you think. - Jack

jval, Could be. After awhile my eyes do tend to get crossed reading through the many posts. No harm intended or done, IMHO. ;0)

What's the problem? It's not expensive and not everyone can do post rendering work or, for that matter, do they want to. Art is for all. My wife ( no artist ) once spent days and days copying a book cover and she was so happy when she finished it. By my standard of work it wasn't anything special but she was delighted with it...who are any of us to deprive so called none artists from the pleasure we get from creativity end soapbox back to work Mon

The problem, as I see it, is that some people are trying to impose their definition of "art" upon others. Art is highly subjective and, as such, its definition can be different from person to person. One example I will use from personal experience is the "junk art" or "junk sculpturing". (ie, Taking junk/trash and making a piece of "artwork" from it.) To me, the majority still looks like junk, accurately placed junk, but junk nonetheless. Therefore, by my personal definition, I would not call this art. However, to someone else - and I would think especially the artist, it could be more "artistic" than some of the finest ancient marble sculptures. Therefore, who's interpretation is correct? "Art is in the eye of the beholder."

::reading this thread and wondering (1) why it's gone this long and (2) why hardly anyone's gotten the joke::

If the butt of your joke doesn't laugh... is it still a joke?