I do not wish to bash CL (they are not alone), but I can not find "the answer". The beta test team supplied us with great imagery before the release. I saw fantastic hair and spectaculr dynamic effects. The face-room tantalized and at one level I was sold. In fact is, it's only because CL doesn't deal with AmEx that I am not a part of the "frustration club". It gave me time to return to reality. I have been watching the forums for many years and at each release simular "rant" posts occur. The difference is that this time I'm waiting to see how it all pans out. I have used Poser as a tool since its Fractal days and find it very useful. I remember the "c-exeption" error from... was it P3 or 4? I've dealt with Posers development, but I simply no longer have the time to install/uninstall/reinstall/patch/fail/uninstall/reinstall... I have work to do and CL doesn't provide me with a paycheck. What I don't understand, and I hope someone can explain, is why any business would expect its users to pay for software and beta test it. Are we generally a creative community or are we technical troubleshooters? It is true that with today's tools we all have to be a bit of both, but it looks like the scales are a tad off-balance. If I buy a table saw and it doesn't work, I'll return it. I won't take the time to tear it down, call the maufacturer, and put it back together before I use it. The software business is a different model, but I can think of no viable excuse for releasing software that is as "buggy" as P5 seems to be. I will invest in P5 when it becomes a stable package and I hope that CL is still around for another revision a few years from now. Until that time Vicki, Mike and I will sit in the P4 bleachers and let the rest of you figure it out. Hopefully watching and waiting, Visque

My p5 is working well from day one,the sr1 did some improvements nothing else, and the sr2 will iron out some minor bugs. there are some things that cause trouble( lightsets,props) that were working in p4 Only thing i miss is a more detailed manual.Sometimes it takes time to get all the new features working.

"What I don't understand, and I hope someone can explain, is why any business would expect its users to pay for software and beta test it." why? because it works! because it saves money and time for real beta testing and gives an impression as if the company cares about it users. but this time it's gone too far. it must be the buggyest software release ever. i've been using poser since release 3 and spent literally thousands of bucks on it and various content, so the price for an update didn't hurt me that much - relatively speaking. it was more the attitude of cl that annoys me. i'd gladly have waited for another 6 months, and payed according price, for what everyone expects an new version to be: faster, better and more stable. it's none of it. funny thing is, that this six-months-mark will be here none-the-less when p5 runs as expected after sr7 or sr8... to me it seems that the marketing stuff at cl (or egisys) got confused. they didn't know where to place the product: at hobby market (ridiculous mickey-mouse-interface - trying to imitate analogue tools) or professional markt (relatively powerful, though unfinnished materials and render settings, something studio max had years ago). yet they missed to implement modern hybrid-scanline renderer, not to speak about global illumination, plug-ins for hosting poser files in other applications or plug-in system with free sdk.

I just don't have the patience to deal with the problems that are occurring with P5. I have a friend who bought it and she hasn't been able to get one render from it so far. Just last night I read a thread in which someone pointed out that the highest resolution in Firefly was far inferior to the P4 render setting and proved it with example renders. I've seen far too many thread complaining with only a tiny handful of satisfied customers coming in to those complaint threads to argue in favor of the program. I remember when P4 first came out. There were complaints about it. No one could figure out the magnets, get the spotlight to work right, understand transparency, etc. But I've never seen complaints and gripes as strongly worded about any version of Poser as I have with this new release. It only makes me glad I haven't bought it yet. thgeisel, I think you're one of the few lucky ones who has had no problems, but most of my life has been governed by Murphy's Law: If anything can go wrong, it will. I know that I would be joining that "frustration club" with the rest of them. I find it sad that a company can do itself so much harm by producing such an inferior product. Granted, MetaCreations had lousy customer service, but at least their products worked for the most part. It's unfortunate, they gave this up. I'll be there in the P4 bleachers with Visque and the others until CL does something about this fiasco. In some ways, I feel badly for CL as well, because of what they've done to themselves. Just imagine how many more sales they would have made if they had put more thought into what they were doing. Melanie

Maybe more don't come out in favor because we get attacked when we do. What was proved in that thread about the renders was that there is a bug in the way firefly handles textures that aren't an even power of two, ie 256x256, 512x512, 1024x1024, etc. That should be fixed in the next patch due in about a week. There certainly could be more than a few that have no problems. We just aren't as vocal as those that do.

well, if whoever started that thread wasn't as vocal as he was, the solution to the bug would still be unknown.

Maybe more don't come out in favor because we get attacked when we do. >> Yep, I'm even hesitant to offer help afraid I will get yelled at. Shouldn't be like that, reiss-studio just proved the correct attitude, the community exists to help each other and the best thing is Curious Labs is an extremely active and dilligent part of it. Nothing comes from being overly pesimistic and yell at each other. If we keep working together we will end up with a hell of a stable amazing package. If Maya & 3D Studio which cost more than ten times as much as Poser have had similar troubles with their new releases why do we have to be so negative about Creative Labs which is a much smaller company. I have heard jokes about Hash, the creators of Animation Master not being able to run their upcoming releases in demo shows and when they finally release their software is extremely buggy, still I think they have a wonderful accesible tool that I'm glad is available to artists. We have to put things into perspective, you would need to have the resources of Adobe or Microsoft in order to have something that stable. Not only that but of all the types of software 3D software is the most demanding in hardware and resources and the one most prone to have problems once released into the real world.

you would need to have the resources of Adobe or Microsoft in order to have something that stable Sorry, that's utter rubbish. Winzip. Paint Shop Pro. Rhinoceros (McNeel) and a multitude of other programs from small production houses that are perfectly stable and almost completely error free. As for people who have no problem getting shouted at. When you look at the number of threads where someone has a problem with poser 5 and some smart alek posts "I don't have any problems at all" with NO helpful suggestions I have to wonder WHY they bothered posting. The person starting complaint threads wants a solution to the problem NOT some prat telling them they're obviously an idiot with a crap computer. Which "works fine for me, no problems here" indicates. Sorry for the rant but it's getting a bit bloody annoying. Reiss might have sounded like a CL apologist with some of his comments but at least with his input a solution to the texture problem was found. But posts stating "I don't have any problems" are NOT constructive, NOT helpful, NOT finding a solution WHY there's no problem and basically rather insulting. Fine. So Poser 5 works like a dream. Skating along at lightspeed without a single glitch. So rather than gloating - as some seem to be doing - how's about exploring WHY? Maybe there'd be less shouting if that was done. Oh well... perhaps the example set by Reiss will catch on and we'll see more help and less gloat.

This stuff about being "attacked" has been gone over before. The people posting problems were labeled "complainers" and "whiners." They were also called inexperienced and lazy. So, I'm sure there are many who aren't posting their problems for fear of being attacked as well. I don't mind being attacked ... not so much that I won't speak my mind, anyway. I love Poser but hate what CL did to it and how CL treated us. People should speak their minds here. I'd just stay away from blanket statements that people find offensive and stating an opinion as a fact. An example of both would be, "85% of all P5 'bugs' are caused by inexperienced users."

I had lots of fairly friendly goes at CL in this forum, because I pre-ordered yet must have been one of the last to get my copy, considering the date of my pre-order. Now having got it, I am having problems. OK... now I say it was my fault for wanting to be in the forefront of things. I wanted P5, and I got it, before it has really been tested out. I didn't get P4 until it was a CL issue at 4.03. maybe my system isn't up to it, maybe we all pushed CL to issue before they really wanted to, lots of maybe's. And I still have P4 on my system, so I can still play, and carry on experimentating until I get P5 sorted. I waited a long time to get it, and I can now wait to get it sorted. I won't even bother to download the first patch, partly because I am on a really iffy dialup, partly because now I am prepared to wait until CL get to the stage that they would rather have been at before even releasing P5. People pushed, now look what has happened.

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

Simonwm, Are you saying that we should set are expectations low and be happy for what ever might exceed those expectations? I've been through the Autodesk/Kinetix/deiscreet bugs with 3D Studio DOS all the way to Max and have lived with the facts of hardware and software incompatibilities. I've "shelved" software that never operated as advertised. I had a pre-poser package called "Humanoid"(not even worth further comment). Perhaps it's me, but I expect to be able to use my time learning the tools and integrating them into creative efforts... not fixing problems. Perhaps it's the industry as a whole that's the problem. Maybe it's we consumers who have enabled the industry. It seems as if companies find dealing with "damage control" easier than comprehensive pre-release testing (not a good long-term strategy). I don't have the answer, but it seems to me that the release of P5 might have been a bit premature. As I have said; I will invest in P5 when the number of problems diminsish and I thank all of those who are taking their time to debug. If not for the members of this and other forums CL might sell more initially, but their outlook would be dire. My expectations are high and I expect them to be reasonably met. Visque

I agree. We should work together to find answers to the problems that exist. I also think that one of the reasons that someone might post a "well mine works well" comment is to at least show it isn't universal. That doesn't necessarily help the problem at hand though. It also doesn't mean the intention is to gloat. Maybe it is an opening to discuss the differences of configurations that may eventually give a better understanding of the problem so that it can be fixed. In my dream world, nobody would have problems with Poser 5. The fact is, some do. People on both sides have gone 'over-the-edge' at times. There was a series of posts that said that P5 was crap. However I don't remember that poster actually asking for help in resolving any issues. It is nice to see the rare objective thread concerning the problems rather than editorializing it, or taking it as another opportunity to make a pot shot. Hopefully we'll get there soon.

Winzip. Paint Shop Pro. Rhinoceros (McNeel) and a multitude of other programs from small production houses that are perfectly stable and almost completely error free.>> Questor Paint Shop Pro and Winzip are not 3D application, they are much simpler pieces of software and Rhino had an extensive public beta period, perhaps a good idea for Poser 5 but I don't think Curiouslabs financial situation would have allowed them to go in that direction. It would be fantastic if every company could do it like McNeil did with Rhino. Visque, I would never dare to post about software I have never own and experienced by myself but that's just me. I also bought Humanoid and at the time it was a wonderful application, nothing could stand besides it when it was first released, of course today its totally obsolete, but I used Humanoid with 3D Studio DOS and don't know how you can badmouth the great grandfather of Poser which I must have never read a bad review at that time. With the hardware of the times it performed wonderful and did as advertised. Now I have said my pace, I'm not going to become Curious Labs lawyer, my purpose in coming to these forums is not that but to learn how to use the software from more experienced users and help other with what I learn.

SimonWM. Adobe only produce Atmosphere which is a 3d web realisation tool not, as far as I know, a cgi development tool (like Poser) and requires the use of external applications such as Avatar Lab in order to be used properly. I'm not aware of anything else 3d from them. Microsoft produce no 3d Applications at all. So, seeing as you're picking a hole in my answer, how's about you use relevant examples yourself rather than two of the largest software manufacturers around? Last time I checked, Adobe were primarily 2D graphics, and Microsoft were also primarily 2d based with Office, Windows etc etc. No, I'm not counting games in this. Unless of course I missed something and they both now produce 3d development software? So. If you want answers relevant to something, perhaps you should generalise less yourself. As for McNeel. They hardly set a precedent did they? Microsoft did it from early days with Windows allowing a very broad spectrum of users to "test" the software before dumping it on an ususpecting public. Several other companies also allow broad based beta testing. Curious most likely did not have the time to indulge in something like that - doesn't mean they couldn't have though. Every company "could" do that. Most choose not to. JCleaver: You're right, some people have gone over the edge, perhaps because of complete frustration. As was pointed out elsewhere the majority or people on this site are not technically savvy, they're hobbyists and artists. The Pooser threads were not looking for help, just apparently an angry person venting. But, I think you'll agree that they were somewhat unique and it hasn't been repeated since.

Beta testing? Nope. It is unfortunate that there seems to be a compatability bug causing problems for a number of people, but the reality is that for many of us Poser5 is working well. While there are bugs, and it could have been more stable for more people the implicaiton that the software was shipped with the critical crashes known is simply false... this was not dumped out there and left for the users to clean up. Obviously CL knew about some bugs before the shipped, but I have fairly good information that there were no unknown crashes or "show stopper" bugs common during the beta test. In other words, the bug first manifests itself "in the wild". Me? I am happy to help some, but I am a little tired of the endless screaming and complaining. There are bugs and as another thread showed working together to find them and identify them will help get them fixed. But what the other thread ALSO showed was that many people have no interest or urge to learn anything. They expected to jump into a fairly modern render engine without taking any time to understand it or the options and "hit the button" and get the result they wanted. It simply won't happen that way. Moderately powerful renderers need to be tweaked. There are a LOT of settings that effect render quality and speed... and many of them are dependant on the scene you are rendering. But >some< of the people screaming (not all, some) don't want to hear it ... and it is getting old. You want help? Cool. Many of us will be happy to help. Youw ant to start a new thread every day ranting? Fine by me... but eventually people will ignore you.

What would be really interesting to see, then, would be an anonymous survey of all Poser 5 users as to whether they feel they have had major problems with it, both before and after the first patch. Then there shouldn't be anyone afraid to share their experiences, one way or the other.

soulhuntre: i fully agree to what you say !!!

"but I have fairly good information that there were no unknown crashes or "show stopper" bugs common during the beta test. In other words, the bug first manifests itself "in the wild"." And naturally, since any beta testers would be bound by NDA and unable to contradict or verify that, you're reasonably safe in making the assertion. Valid or not. Fairly good information eh? From.... ?

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I wonder if the beta testers used a protected version. If not, they weren't exposed to the biggest bug in P5...Pace Interlock.

Oops! My last statement is just my (and many others') opinion.

"And naturally, since any beta testers would be bound by NDA and unable to contradict or verify that, you're reasonably safe in making the assertion. Valid or not." I was a beta tester and I can verify that. from what I saw during the beta program, we beta users did not have these problems. there were no known show-stopper bugs in the software when it shipped. and thanks for the good words from all. I've been trying to keep a can-do attitude towards just seeing what the problems are. what I'm seeing from last nights thread is that if we can identify the problems. then they get fixed.

No Jackson. I have fairly good information that they all had to wear a full body condom and likewise protect their computers before introducing BugWare 5 to their systems. I also have fairly good information that the cd came in and was required to be left in a cd condom so that "things" wouldn't transfer between system and disk... There is a vicious rumour going around at the moment, that some people didn't leave the cd in the special cd condom and have now caught anti-social bugs from irresponsible use of an unprotected cd. :) Now. Where did I put my meds....

Well I'm fed up with the crashes, the errors and instability of Poser 5 so like many other ppl, hi ho hi ho it's back to Pro Pack I go until Curious Labs manages to straighten out the mess that they've created. Like you Visque, I haven't got the time to root around with installing, uninstalling and all that waffle. .[S].

"I was a beta tester and I can verify that. from what I saw during the beta program, we beta users did not have these problems. there were no known show-stopper bugs in the software when it shipped." Oh really? raised eyebrow

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

And naturally, since any beta testers would be bound by NDA and unable to contradict or verify that, you're reasonably safe in making the assertion. Valid or not. ::shrugs:: Take it for what it's worth. I am certainly not going to incite anyone to break an NDA in order to convince anyone of this at all. I reported the information I have, in the only way that I can under the current circumstances. Like all information, it is to the reader to decide whether to act on it or not.

Oh, BTW - I DO understand your skepticism :)

"Oh really? raised eyebrow" har, good vulcan move. yes, there were none of the "will not run bugs" these really did develop when the program was released into the wild

FWIW, I distinctly remember a post by Steve Cooper that stated there weren't any show-stopper bugs that they were aware of until after it was released. I do not remember whether I read that here, or at PoserStyle.

shrug Based on all the posts over the past two years on what would and wouldn't be done in P5, including the: "we won't release till it's ready", "we're not rushing because we want it to be stable", "we cant fix poser 4 because it would detract from making sure Poser 5 is stable" etc... if Cooper said the sky was blue, I'd look out the window.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

shrug Oh well, I guess Ironbear's opinion's going to be set in stone, despite all. "we're not rushing because we want it to be stable" as said from multiple beta testers and cooper himself, there were no instability bugs in the large beta test group. We've tracked down all the known stability bugs for BodyStudio in our beta test group. If another is found once we release, are you going to call me a con artist. I'm also excited about my software, just like all merchants here are excited when they release a new poser item. If I get excited about it and a problem is found after release are you going to say I'm running a scam? even if I release patches quickly like CL because I care.

My opinion's amenable to change when I see evidence proving contrary to what the opinions are formed on. You so far haven't shown me any. I'm not real impressed by warm fuzzies and fuzzy logic. Nor has Coop. I'm not seeing "from multiple beta testers". I'm seeing one - you, now being extrapolated to multiple. Is that the royal we, or the we of people with MPD? ;] Only other testers I've seen post that they were were PhilC and Kammerer. Phil's been a bit close mouthed, and Kammerer wasn't exactly glowing. "If I get excited about it and a problem is found after release are you going to say I'm running a scam? " Depends. You planning to make outrageous pre-release hypes, statements that won't hold on examination, and then huckster all the pre-release orders you can before it hits the shelves and reviewers so that people won't get a chance to see the flaws [if nay], and then post long teary sob stories about how you had to shill it for all it's worth and release it with known bugs because you were sleeping on couches with no pay? ;] If not, no worries. You're probably safe.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

if nay = if any

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

"I'm not seeing "from multiple beta testers". I'm seeing one - you" and soulehuntre's post above. guess twas skipped! ;] oh, yeah, and jcleaver's post about cooper posting the same, but I know you're opinions keep you from thinking the pres is speaking the truth so just keep it to 2 for now.

I read both. Neither soulhuntre nor jcleaver stated they were beta testers. Are you sure you read them? Soulhuntre - "Obviously CL knew about some bugs before the shipped, but I have fairly good information that there were no unknown crashes or "show stopper" bugs common during the beta test." Nothing in that says he was a tester. Nothing skipped either, it was read and understood for what he was saying. Jcleaver - "FWIW, I distinctly remember a post by Steve Cooper that stated there weren't any show-stopper bugs that they were aware of until after it was released. " I read the same posts she did, we obviously came away with different impressions - however, she stated in her reccollection. No probs with that. "but I know you're opinions keep you from thinking the pres is speaking the truth " And I can see that yours keep you from thinking. Soulhuntre at least has a tendency I respect a great deal - he reads, thinks, and tends to document his thoughts where he can.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

If anyone here was one of the beta testers can he (she or they) please respond to my question: Did you test a protected version or not?

"And I can see that yours keep you from thinking." disagreeing with your extreme views is not "not thinking." "You want help? Cool. Many of us will be happy to help. Youw ant to start a new thread every day ranting? Fine by me... but eventually people will ignore you." I'm going to go with soulhuntre on this one. Are there bugs whith p5, yeah sure. but every time we get real information to CL they fix the bugs. quickly.

I tested a protected version

Well, I don't seem to remember the sex change operation. I know I must be getting old if I forgot that! LOL! Boy will my wife be surprised. Probably a little pissed as well!

Rats. Sorry J - there's just something about your nick that brings "Leave it to Beaver" to mind, and it goes from there. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I'm not a beta tester. I'd like to echo what soulhuntre said though. :) And also when I say I am not having such and such a problem, I don't mean it to gloat. I mean it to tell you that it is not a universal bug and so you should go ahead and report your system config to CL so they should go and do testing on a comparable system to yours, especially for you! That's what I would expect if the situation was reversed and I was the one having problems that others are not getting! If I find most other people are having the same problem, then I would report that as a software bug. This process will seperate software bugs from compatibility software bugs. It's just a nice to know piece of info. :) I have skimmed through all the rooms and putzed around in all of them in the last 2 or 3 weeks... haven't had any troubles yet. I've only just started delving into each room more now and actually saving renders. I am posting my poser 5 diary here. http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4936

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

Looks around, scratches head and wanders off into the sunset chuckling... Arthur Conan Doyle would have been proud of this place.

Sherlock's Quote of the Month: "It is of the highest importance in the art of detection to be able to recognise out of a number of facts which are incidental and which are vital. . . . " Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes, (1893). (lifted from http://www.infomrt.com/Sherlock/)

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

Nice one April. Not the one I was thinking of, but nevertheless a good one. :)

Ok questor, I'm rusty on the Doyle, what's the quote! :)

the Doyle? ... the Doyle? Heathen. :)

LOL, would ACD have been better :D (probably not, eh!?)

ACDC? "But how was I to know That she'd been shuffled before Said she'd never had a Royal Flush But I should have known That all the cards were comin' From the bottom of the pack And if I'd known what she was dealin' out I'd have dealt it back " - ACDC from The Jack Probably not. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

ACD? Erm, no, probably not. :) "You see but you do not observe." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, The Scandal of Bohemia Hate to leave people in suspenders for too long. :) ACDC? One of the best rock bands to come out of Australia. Never quite liked them as much after they lost the original lead singer. and finally... So may the outward shows be least themselves: The world is still deceived with ornament. In law, what plea so tainted and corrupt But, being seasoned with a gracious voice, Obscures the show of evil? In religion, What damned error, but some sober brow Will bless it and approve it with a text, Hiding the grossness with fair ornament? There is no vice so simple but assumes Some mark of virtue on his outward parts. Merchant of Venice, Shakespeare.

Heh heh. I can do Sir Doyle also: "On the contrary, Watson, you can see everything. You fail, however, to reason from what you see. You are too timid in drawing your inferences." --The Adventure of the Blue Carbuncle, Sherlock Holmes

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

"I wonder if the beta testers used a protected version. If not, they weren't exposed to the biggest bug in P5...Pace Interlock." The beta testers were issued key's for the software, and they had to go through the online "unlock" process. So I believe that the beta test was a protected.

From what I can gather reading these various threads - and not having P5: Assuming the people who say they are having few or no problems are not lying. Assuming the people who can't get anything to work aren't lying. I find both to reasonably credible. The only logical answer is that P5 is a program that is particularly sensitive to its environment, software and possibly hardware. OS versions, service packs, DLL loaded, runninf processes, memory and a dozen other things, any combination of which might cause problems in any unique configuration. One person see a reasonably stable, useable application, another person sees a piece of crap, the two are not mutually exclusive. So, did CL knowingly release a fatally buggy product, hoping to get some cash and skate by 'til they could get it fixed? Possible. More likely, they got generally good beta reports, a few bad ones and hoped that this ratio would be the same in the real world. Would they have held off release or had a larger beta test program if they'd had more money or if the clamor for P5 hadn't reached deafening levels? Probably. Do they need better tools, better QA or even better programmers? Definitely. Will endless public reports of problems (as opposed to informative bug reports to them), accusations ane people afraid to even install the patches help them fix the problems? No. Will public reports from people having no problems help? No, it will only make the people having problems angrier. Will CL even survive to fix P5, much less create a P6? I hope so.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

I was a beta tester and I can verify that. from what I saw during the beta program, we beta users did not have these problems. there were no known show-stopper bugs in the software when it shipped. Sorry Reise, I have to disagree with you. Though we were on the same beta team (you and I), and are stuck under NDA, I only wished I was fully able to get into specifics or have the ability to properly do a Review on Poser 5 that I would like to for the members that visit our sites. Forunately there are some magazine companies already stating the same facts that people are already hearing in this forum and some of what I'd like to say. At least they weren't bound by an NDA in which to do so. Jack

I think this should be water on the bridge right now. I really DONT CARE what went on behind closed doors before Poser's release. Nor people's opinions on such whether testers or not. Poser 5 was a mess on release, much more so than Poser 5. BUT it's been a few weeks now. One patch out another almost here. Things are beginning to look up. The only important thing left to consider is remembering this time three years or so hence for the advent of Poser 6. All other speculation and posturing and blaming and hinting is just oh so boring, petty, and self serving and won't change a thing.

"Poser 5 was a mess on release, much more so than Poser 5. BUT it's been a few weeks now. One patch out another almost here. Things are beginning to look up." here, here. "The only important thing left to consider is remembering this time three years or so hence for the advent of Poser 6." The only reason that it took 3 years was because the company started at metacreations with p4 and had to forma new company for p5. It's not going to take that long for p6

it's hard to believe that 80 + bugs that were detected only weeks after the release weren't spot by beta testers before. either there were really not enough of you doing the job (and that means that cl wanted to do de-facto public beta test), or there were enough of beta testers involved, but cl didn't want to fix the bugs (and that means knowingly releasing faulty product). - four weeks after the release came sr1 - problems with downloads and cl's isp - problems with sr1 - sr1.1 released - four weeks later comes sr2 now that doesn't make one thinks that cl handles all this very professionally... soulhuntre, would you still have the same opinion if you had to install p5 & patch half a dozen times, get bsod every now and then and had problems to register?

"soulhuntre, would you still have the same opinion if you had to install P5 & patch half a dozen times, get bsod every now and then and had problems to register?" That would depend on WHY it happened. For instance, several of those who had to re-install after the patch had to do so because they ignored the instructions that came with the patch. if I was one of those then I would not be very upset at CL about it - for instance. Would I be upset? Sure. Would I think that it was a universal problem? No, becuase there are enough people for whome it works finer to realize that it is a compatability bug. I would be annoyed, and I would either work through the problem in order to get it fixed or I would return the product. To be honest, though obviously people don't want to hear it, if you had to re-install more than once you were doing something horribly wrong... like not uninstalling it completely. Granted, I have been working on these machines my whole adult life (ok, since I was 12) and writing code for money since I was 16 ... so maybe I do a lot of things by reflex to avoid some problems because trust me, I have been bitten on the a** with some of this before. For instance, I ALWAYS go delete the folder after I uninstall a program... thee usually leave settings behind. This is a good idea for them... but especially if I am re-installign the same software I want it >gone<. Computers are deterministic. A bug may well need you to re-install.... but if you need to re-install more than once you didn;t re-install right. If you had to do it six times then you are missig something. People here are VERY defensive about all this, but the answer is that the P5 "uproar" is composed of BOTH technical problems and a whole bunch of user confusion.

definitely. but remember that there are lots of pc-nubies around who are still searching for the "any key". installation and patching has to be fool-proof. stopping in the middle of the process or not even comencing it with some cryptical error isn't very nice.

Not taking sides, but as a beta tester and community manager for a lot of MMORPGs, every time something is released with bugs the beta testers always get the blame for not finding xxx bug. I will use the same quote that every Dev has used in response (because it is very true) "50,000 players will most certainly find bugs that the 1000 beta testers could not. It is virtually impossible to account for 50,000 different configurations and systems. Please do not blame the beta testers, they did everything that they were able to do." JDexter

(boring analagy:) I remember a presidential race some time back where the polls indicated a certain win. But it didn't happen. The polls were wrong. Why? Because, as it turns out, the polsters did it by telephone and got a biased result... because only the "rich" people had telephones as that time. I certainly don't have all the information I need to make this remark, but beta-testor choices seem to be the ones who are the "greats". The skilled ones. The ones likely NOT to make "general" mistakes. The ones with the most powerful PCs. So, IMHO, the beta-testing results would be flawed from the beginning. i.e., NOT representing the general purchasing crowd. Like the presidential poll I referred to. NDA (Non-Disclosure-Agreement). What shit! I realize it is boilerplate stuff, but it's like lobbyists choosing elected officials...they KNOW they are there to do the "employer's" bidding. And because the "company" (CL in this case) has complete control of what a testor says. If other business was done like this, then district attorneys would be able to choose ALL the jurors and KNOW how they were going to vote ahead of time. Side notes: Not that I have a DB of companys who made patches to programs, but I don't think I have EVER seen 2 patches THIS fast. That should tell you something right away. CL made a miscalculation. It assumed it had the resources and "power" (skill) to produce a complicated 3d tool. They misjudged and "bit off more than they could chew." Like the Nielson "familys". Has anyone EVER known one? Who the hell ARE these people that catapault crap to the TV lineup anyway? Where IS the list of betatestors? Not that it matters...they are NOT free to divulge any damaging information anyway. I agree with Ironbear. Not that he needs MY support...he speaks well enough by himself. I only dillute what he says.

All that discussion about the security code and safety...way back when. Who'd want it? It's like discovering one can download an unprotected copy of some Partridge Family movie. Or Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. Sheesh!

Well, look at Microsoft if you want to see patches fast and furious. If I am not mistaken, they had a patch for Win XP a couple of days before it was released. Then every few days, there is another patch. IF CL had the resources, I am sure things would have been done a little more diligantly. The part that encourages me is the fact that they are trying to fix it. They could hold off releasing a patch until they fix every known bug, but they aren't. They seem to want to get bugs fixed as fast as possible. They may not succeed in squashing every bug with the next patch; but they will hopefully get there.

Just as a side note, I was Nielson "family" 'round about '93 or so. And I kept it tuned to CNN or MTV the whole time (back then, they actually showed music videos) he he he

Well, JCleaver...I think SR1 for XP came out MUCH later than the first patch for P5. If there was anything else in between, I missed it.

You are right, Service Release 1, which is a collection of previously released patches and other enhancements, did come out quite a bit later; and then mainly only to comply with a court order. In the meantime, ever notice the little globe in the system tray? That is the update icon which will dl the latest patch. The install process of Win XP itself will dl the lastest patches before it is completely installed if possible.

Yes, that is true, JC. But, to tell the truth, I click on them and get them over with without much thought. LOL, I think a most of them have to do with Explorer, though, Microslop's most updated piece of software. If you are on Windows, I know you understand...hehe.

Yea, I do. And I'll admit, I'm getting tired of having to update every other day! If that ever happens with Poser we will know a couple of things : 1. CL is doing OK financially. After all, how could they pay for all the programmers necessary to issue an update every other day? 2. CL doesn't have competent programmers if they can't get a stable release after a few patches. I figure that four patches should be adequate. But what is the magic number? Hopefully less than that.

why compare to the worst?

Has Microsoft released SR2 for XP yet? I guess I have to go do some updates. :0) === The fact that two SR-level patches (and patches to the patches) have been required after the release of P5, within approximately a month and a half, is indicative of issues that CL knew about prior to or shortly thereafter the release of P5 and the general "sloppiness" of the development and/or QA process. I recall that kupa stated that no "critical" bugs were in the initial release, but what the definition of "critical" is to CL may be different than that expected by the users. What, exactly, is a "critical" bug from the POV of the developer? * BSOD? * Code errors during the use of P5? * Functionality issues? * Interface problems? * Installation issues? * Incompatibility issues with "usual" drivers/hardware/software? * Rendering issues? * Texture issues? All of these, and more, have been reported by the users shortly after the release of P5. So, wherein lies the true meaning of "critical"?

"or if the clamor for P5 hadn't reached deafening levels? " The pre release publicity had a lot to do with that clamor reaching deafening levels. Admittedly, good marketing practice - you want to build up a demand for the product prior to release - but in this case, premature and it's backfiring on them. "What, exactly, is a "critical" bug from the POV of the developer?" The computer explodes and the user catches on fire? ;] Anything less is definately non-critical. snicker Although... I seem to recall a number of P5 buyers installing it and immediately bursting into flames in here...

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I took all the bug reports. Printed them out. Feed them to my dog. Then I told Steve Cooper. Hey everything is working great. No bugs at all. Lets ship this sucka! ScottA

Feeding bug reports to your dog... Wait until PETA catches wind of this. Didn't Steve wonder why you were spending so much time at the vets? (LOL) Visque

Oh yeah. Almost forgot. I made sure the program would run only on my PC. And not on anyone elses.

Adobe Illustrator 9 was very slow and unstable on many systems, took two patches to get it stable. Adobe made such a mess of the first Windows patch for AI10 that they pulled it and later issued a 10.02 patch. There have been many complaints about Photoshop 7 and about the .01 patch. Painter 6 took three patches from Metacreations to become reasonably stable, then Corel bought it and issued a 6.1 patch that wiped your desktop if you had a shortcut to Painter there. CL is not alone, and is not necessarily grossly incompetent or malicious.

I do not think that my question merited any "jests" in response, it is a serious enough question. What is CLs' (or any other software developers') definition of "critical"? Seems to me it is a logical question to be asked and answered, if the answer is known; given that kupa did state that P5 was released with known issues, but none that were "critical". I think that the mindset of the developer vs the end user is a definite factor in this fiasco. Only by understanding the POVs from both vantage points can this be addressed. I would also postulate that those who experienced less problems are, most likely, the more experienced/technical users vs the average hobbyist that uses Poser for "recreation" vs commercial interests.

ScottA, Thanks for coming clean. I'm sure a great weight has been lifted from your shoulders. Would you be interested in selling your PC? Visque

ChuckEvans wrote: "NDA (Non-Disclosure-Agreement). What shit! I realize it is boilerplate stuff, but it's like lobbyists choosing elected officials...they KNOW they are there to do the "employer's" bidding." What employee of what business is NOT expected to do their employer's bidding? What has that to do with NDAs? NDAs are in most cases necessary for the protection of interests, and there is nothing at all sinister or dishonest about that. Do you think that people who don't lock their front doors are the only honest people? In today's world, their trust is actually stupidity, I'm sure you'd agree. In the case of NDAs signed by beta testers, which is what I believe you're criticizing, the NDAs help ensure the interity of the beta process and help prevent needless trash talking (or for that matter, premature hype) outside of the company. They prevent the compromise of proprietary data, assets. They most certainly don't ensure that an NDA-bound employee will only say what they think the company wants to hear. Any decent software company wants it beta testers to accurately report flaws, not to kiss butt. "And because the "company" (CL in this case) has complete control of what a testor says." I'm sorry, but that sounds like groundless conspiracy theory, and is very wrong in my experience. You're accusing CL of dishonest manipulation of its beta team's feedback, which I assume you were never privvy to. Have you ever been a beta tester? If so, and if that was your experience, the company wasn't worth beans. I've beta tested for one of the biggest media conglomerates in the world. They wanted nothing more than to hear about what they were doing wrong. They wanted us to find flaws which could be fixed prior to launching their product. Brown-nosers, pardon the term, weren't wanted, weren't appreciated, and were no help at all. Neither were they rewarded for their goody-goodiness. I don't mean to be grumpy, and I sincerely don't mean to pick on Chuck in a personal manner. Legitimate criticims of an apparently flawed product are a healthy and necessary thing. P5 appears to be very criticizable, but I've read so many unfounded, speculative things said (as if they were fact) about employees and beta testers at CL that are IMO way over the line. Jackson wrote: "I'd just stay away from blanket statements that people find offensive and stating an opinion as a fact." Words of wisdom.

Cyberstretch, it is hard to give an answer. I am a developer, though not for CL. I would assume that all but one of your list would be considered critical at some point. For instance, rendering issues would depend on what the issues were. Didn't render at all? Critical. Render being slow? Not critical. The one I have a problem with is compatability to "usual software/drivers/hardware". And that is because no one can say what is usual. It could be a problem only in certain combinations. Maybe any of the three by itself would cause no problem at all, but two or three together do. There is not enough resources for any company, including Micosoft, to test every possible combination. During an Alpha Test one tests it on bare machines, at least that has been the practice my company employs. Then we go to a Closed Beta Test, where the employees run the software on machines that have other software installed. Then during an open Beta Test, meaning outsiders to the company, you start to see problems with compatibility with other drivers/software/hardware that wasn't caught during the closed Beta-Test. Hopefully you stamp out those problems before releasing. Even with doing this, there are still going to be issues that need to be addressed since all of the Beta-Testers still wouldn't have tested every combination. I do not know how CL handles beta-tests. I suspect it is similar.

"The one I have a problem with is compatability to 'usual software/drivers/hardware'."

Ok, that was vague. But you merely have to look at new "pre-fab" systems to determine the 'usual'.

===

Software:

• Anti-Virus: Anyone not running one would certainly be remiss in this day and age. All basically function the same, with differences usually in the reference files and, possibly, the AV engines that drive them.

• Browsers: Only two major contenders - IE and Netscape. Since Poser is not a browser, there should be little to no issues.

• Firewalls: Anyone connected for a majority of the time would be remiss not having one, from dialup to Broadband. BlackICE (although this is "intruder detection" vs a real firewall last I checked), Tiny Personal Forewall, and ZoneAlarm being the major players; except MS XP's firewall which, I believe, has to be turned on.

• IMs (AOL, ICQ, MSN, Trillian, Yahoo): Most Internet-connected have one or more of the above, so they should be considered.

• MS Office/Works: Standardized bundle on most system purchases.

• Norton/Symantec: Norton definitely has a large enough marketshare with their software and utilities, and their products should be considered.

• OS: Poser 5 users are Windows users (until they release the MAC version), so that includes all Windows OSes back to 98, since the other versions are no longer supported. Plus the usual "Microsoft Fluff" that comes with their OSes.

===

Drivers: Could be tricky depending upon the system configuration (ie, manufacturer, chipsets, components, etc). However, there are many chipsets, for example, that are widely used across many manufacturer's motherboards (ie, SIS, VIA, etc). It should be easy to determine if you have an adequate cross-section of the populace based upon the beta testers' and internal testers' system specs; which I presume would be recorded and taken into account.

===

Hardware falls into a "generalized" category. Most systems have:

• CD/DVD: Pretty much the same in functionality except one can play DVD-encoded files. Many use Microsoft provided drivers.

• CD-R(W)/DVD-RAM: Could pose a problem based off variety, but generally (for install purposes) act like CD/DVD drives unless you are burning disks.

• Floppy Drives: Standard in all systems and predominantly uses Microsoft drivers.

• Hard Drives: Usually use Microsoft IDE drivers, USB and Firewire externals generally relegated to the "early adopters", and SCSI for some serious usually tech savvy users' systems. On some occasions, you may run into "overlay" software to make older systems function properly, but that is becoming less the norm.

• Memory: Due to the variety available, this could be a problem, but usually not other than amount. Type (ie, SIMM, DIMM, PC100, PC2700, etc), and other factors hardly seems to account for much incompatibility in my experience.

• Monitor: Most are driven by .inf files, basically giving instructions to the OS/Video adapter on the capabilities of the particular monitor (ie, refresh rates, resolutions, etc).

• Motherboards: See above in drivers.

• Processor(s): Intel and AMD the most prominent. For most intents and purposes core functionality is compatible, with the exception of some added instructions sets depending upon model, etc.

• Video Cards: Most that I have seen people using are nVidia or RIVA based cards. However, Poser does not use anything but basic functionality, so this would rule out any "advanced features" of the cards Poser does not use.

Then you have the peripheral devices that should not generally interfere with the overall functionality of the system unless being used at the same time.

Most companies, at least the ones I have worked for, have mass purchasing agreements with the major system manufacturers (ie, Compaq, Dell, Gateway, etc). Therefore, most internal testing is, most likely, done on very similar systems; unless users are allowed to "customize" their workstation - which is a major no-no in most companies due to security and other reasons.

So, although there are a myriad of configurations, the vast majority of the hardware is "standardized" to some degree; and some seem to have no relation whatsoever to a 3D application. I have not seen any posts claiming any extraordinary system specs or software that would preclude an all-purpose 3D application not to run across the board. Most of the posts with problems have had fairly "plain vanilla" installs with nothing out of the ordinary that would draw attention away from Poser being the source of the problem(s). Likewise, the vast majority have used previous versions of Poser, so the systems must have been compatible to that extent, without system-based issues.

Given the fact that many problem posts state that Poser is the only application that exacerbates or exhibits these problems, it further presents that Poser seems to be the common denominator.

So Cyberstretch, your contention from your last post seems to be that all systems these days are standardized enough and pre-fab so an application should just "work"' "Given the fact that many problem posts state that Poser is the only application that exacerbates or exhibits these problems, it further presents that Poser seems to be the common denominator. " Poser's the new App, and doesn't have patches based on wide release yet. Most applications (even out of the ones you list!) have incompatability issues when they're first released, and need to be patched after their first release. This is especially true for apps involving graphics. No one (me included) is saying that the current Poser 5 doesn't have problems. Just that there are a lot of users out there, and every exact configuration is unique to the persons computer because we all have different configurations, unless you work at a company that doesn;t let you store any files on the host computer and has a network drive for users directory. Most of these are standard enough that no difference is made. But the difference could be in normal items that create an unpredictable situation when all factors are brought together. "Most of the posts with problems have had fairly "plain vanilla" installs with nothing out of the ordinary that would draw attention away from Poser " I haven't seen enough information in the majority of posts as to a full posting of which processes are or are not running from msconfig, and what versions all the drivers are. You're making a blanket statement here. "Therefore, most internal testing is, most likely, done on very similar systems; unless users are allowed to "customize" their workstation " well, most poser users are individuals who can (and do!) add all the custom software they want, and are not administrated by a central IT department. which is why the testing that was done on standard systems,a nd users systems does not always catch all the bugs that are out there. And hardware does fall into general catagories, but I think it's a little unreasonable to say that since all computers have video cards, then a program should definitely work on all configurations if it's been tested with nvidia/riva. There's a lot of other video cards that does not cover. I think it leaves out the other biggest player, ATi! and all the other major players. Poser's a graphic app, and does a lot more work in the interface than something like MSword, or office.

One of the biggest culprits I have found is Internet Explorer. It adds and updates .dlls that are used by other programs that have absolutely nothing to do with the internet. My company doesn't use those .dlls that I am aware of, but many do. If Poser is not a browser, how do you explain Content Paradise? I know it isn't up yet, but the room is there waiting for the server. The problem isn't testing against any one of the variables, it is testing every single possible configuration of variables. It can't be done. If Poser was only used in a corporate environment, then I believe there wouldn't be as many problems due to standardization. However, I suspect that most Poser users aren't running it in a controlled environment. Who knows what is running in the background? Even the end-user may not know of everything running.

The current hardware "standards" are too wide to mean anything useful. What makes you come to the conclusion that because of the current standards. All machines act the same way under the same conditions if the hardware companies themselves aren't happy about the lack of standards? I thought you were in Tech support? How can someone in Tech support make a statement like that? Are you basing this theory that all parts are created equal through "standards" because Poser5 is the only software you've heard of that won't run on some machines? I just installed P5 on my old PII 266mhz. machine to see if it would do anything strange. The system: PII266mhz cpu 64meg. RAM 4meg. Video card 2Gig HD OS WIN 98SE The program installed and runs perfectly (although extremely slow). Everything from the rendering to the walk designer to the hair and cloth works without a hitch. But so slow it's not much fun. If the hardware standards are so fantastic. Why are people with ten times this machine not even able to launch poser without it crashing? Current hardware standards suck. They always have. Who are you? Better not let your boss here you say things like that. ;-) ScottA

Poser 5 was created for high-end users with top of the line computers running 3DS Max and other apps. That's who they pick to do beta testing, not the wee folks with computers that just meet the minimum requirements. And this is one of the problems with Poser 5. Computers with lots of GHz and GB's can be more forgiving when it comes to bugs than those without. I posted a message earlier regarding this, but it either didn't post or got deleted. My Poser 5 CD came with all the tool windows out of reach in each room telling me that somebody was using a mega-size monitor. Other people said they didn't notice this until the patch, which tells me very clearly that there might have been different versions of the initial release, or everyone has a large monitor. And as far as NDA's, I've beta tested a number of products including one owned by the software company everyone hates, and we were always released from the NDA after the program shipped. That BS about not being able to disclose anything is just that--BS! Unless we're still in testing mode and all of us just paid to beta test for CL.

Poser 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Pro 2014, 11, 11 Pro

"Poser 5 was created for high-end users with top of the line computers running 3DS Max and other apps. That's who they pick to do beta testing, not the wee folks with computers that just meet the minimum requirements." the post just above you shows that it runs on a machine waaay below spec, so it's probably something else. cheers, -J

Just curious, but are any of you poser5 users running any other heavyweight 3D programs like MAX Lightwave etc. if so how is your hardware handling these programs( crashes BSOD etc.) compared to poser5??.

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What I am getting at is that the vast majority of software produced commercially runs without the major hitches that P5 has seemingly caused. I have a theory as to what the problem really is: P5 seems to be "Frankenstein's Software", of sorts, between P4 code and the add-ons provided by "Pixels Digital, Inc., Singular Inversions, Inc., Size8 Software, Inc., Runtime DNA, and DAZ Productions", (direct from the EULA), add to that Interlok's security scheme and you have a lot of hands in the pot. What I suspect the real cause of the majority of the issues is stems from the way that all of those "parts" either have been put together and/or how they interact with one another. The general consensus seems to be that P5 and CL are not at fault, with minor exceptions. It seems like the finger is always pointed elsewhere in the majority of the cases. So far, I think we can rule out many of the hardware, software, and driver arguments due to the fact that so many affected systems are so varied. Also, user experience and intelligence seems to be ruled out, based on the varied number of users that have been adversely affected. There has not been any "common denominator" that I have noticed so far, other than P5. So, whether anyone likes it or not, Poser 5 seems to be the cause; either directly or indirectly. Now, the matter has to be sorted as to whether or not the problems are manifested in CL's, Pixels Digital's, Singular Inversions', Size8 Software's, Runtime DNA's, Interlok's, and/or DAZ Productions' portion of the P5 "Frankenstein", or any combination of the above. In fact, it could be certain combinations of steps that venture into the different parts of the "monster" that are to blame. I firmly believe that the software is the major culprit. Whether anyone else does is their right. However, to date, there is no logical connection to any commonality other than P5. At the end of the day, if P5 ever does get straightened out to the point the vast majority of users have no issues with it, I would be willing to bet that the software (or the combination of the parts thereof) is proven to be the main aggressor in these issues. Then, and only then, will the correct diagnostics, troubleshooting, and opinions be justified. My bet is also that CL will never divulge what the root cause was, because to do so would be a very bitter pill to swallow; considering it was their sole decision to meld these technologies together. As for the apparent "pissing matches" that seem to have cropped up, I will not participate in them because they are counter-productive and, IMHO, not even closely relevant to the discussion at hand. Think of me and/or my qualifications to formulate my opinions as you so desire.

"If Poser is not a browser, how do you explain Content Paradise?" CLs has already stated that CP is merely an invocation of IE to get from within the P5 application to the CP web site, if it ever sees the light of day. Many programs already use this functionality without any major problems, even XML-based preferences.

I run Lightwave 7.5 and Maya 3.0 Unlimited... no crashes, no rendering problems. Have P5. Wont install it. Did the FULL beta test and that was enough for me, I am waiting till the BUGS and EULA issues are addressed. Plain and simple. And for the record... WinXP Pro 1.8 Ghrz 2.0 Gig RAM 260 Gigs of Free Space Normal % of System Operation with background tasks (aol Messenger, Virus and Firewall, P3DO Explorer) Running: Maya - CPU usage 32-43% Lightwave - CPU usage 21-36% Poser 4 - CPU usage 46-89% Poser 5 (beta)- CPU usage 32-100% I can't speak about the cough release version of P5 or the SR-1 service patches since I have removed all Beta versions (prior to EULA information) of Poser 5 and refuse to comply to the terms of the License Agreement. Jack -This figures represent my current operating system only and "MAY" not meet the figures represented by parties not running on my current system.

"What I am getting at is that the vast majority of software produced commercially runs without the major hitches that P5 has seemingly caused. " LOL! not at first, the first versions of Maya on the PC (only 2-3 years ago) was only authorized to work with 1 yes ONE video card. and then by the release there were something like a few video cards from a company or 2 (INTERGRAPH). "The general consensus seems to be that P5 and CL are not at fault, with minor exceptions. It seems like the finger is always pointed elsewhere in the majority of the cases." I think that you might have missed some of the point in what we're saying. I didn't mean to attack what you were saying, or to imply that this wasn't a problem that could be fixed inside Poser 5, as opposed to saying that the blame should be placed on other software, or that you should have to permanently remove other software to use p5. What I have been saying (and maybe I didn't explain well enough) is that I choose to understand that new software can have unforseen problems when everyone first pounds on it, and instead of just flapping the wings (which never fixes the problem) I try to see if I can find useful information about why I would see this problem that was unseen, and deliver that information to someone who can fix the problem for the software I'm using. then the problem's over, and I can work :)

"Maya - CPU usage 32-43% Lightwave - CPU usage 21-36% Poser 4 - CPU usage 46-89% Poser 5 (beta)- CPU usage 32-100% " Heya, the reason for this is that poser does all it's viewport rendering in software. This keeps Poser available to all the people who don't have the high-end 3D cards that are required to run Maya. (yeah I want to see hardware accelleration for Poser also. I'm sure it will come)

"The pre release publicity had a lot to do with that clamor reaching deafening levels..." Must be my encroaching senility. I seem to recall people clamoring for hardware specs, feature lists, screenshots, etc. because CL wasn't releasing any of the above. As they say, be careful what you wish for. I remember Orson Welles solemly stating that Gallo would release no wine before it's time. If that were true it would mean there was a right time for Ripple and Thunderbird to be unleashed on the world - perhaps the apocalypse?

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

"If that were true it would mean there was a right time for Ripple and Thunderbird to be unleashed on the world " Hey, when's the wrong time! oh yeah, poser and ripple, it's a saturday ;]

"not at first, the first versions of Maya on the PC (only 2-3 years ago) was only authorized to work with 1 yes ONE video card. and then by the release there were something like a few video cards from a company or 2 (INTERGRAPH)." And one example is indicative of the entire software industry, even if it is only limited to 3D software? I have tried a myriad of freeware, shareware, alpha, beta, commercial, non-commercial, and cracked/warezed (I was responsible for being a "Software Nazi" for a company) applications on my system all at the same time and I can confidently state that none have caused the widespread problems that P5 has, none. Your justification that one application had a singlular excluisive requirement is nothing but that, a singular instance. "I think that you might have missed some of the point in what we're saying." I think you are taking my comments too personally. Review the threads again and you will notice a trend that it is generally stated that it is the fault of nearly everything but Poser, including user error, that is the underlying cause of the issues. I offer the fact that the patch (after it was patched itself) solved many of the issues, but not all, that exists within P5 as proof positive that Poser is at the heart of the problem; unless the patches addressed the multitude of other supposed causes of the P5 issues, including user error. Plus, the fact that a second SR patch is due in under two months would further implicate Poser as the root cause, or else all issues would have been resolved with SR-1 patch. The "pissing match" statement was not geared toward you in particular reiss. So do not take that personally either.

no prob, didn't take the "match" statement towards me :) "I think you are taking my comments too personally. Review the threads again and you will notice a trend that it is generally stated that it is the fault of nearly everything but Poser, including user error, that is the underlying cause of the issues." I guess that's my point, please take a look back through the thread and you'll see that people have been posting that they have no problems with poser in some cases but they're not implying that this means it's not Poser's fault. It means that they're saying CL probably had the same OK results that they have, and did not see these problems until the wide release. Now that CL's seeing them, they're fixing them.

Even seasoned oenophile's disagree, reiss-studio. For me, The classic TJ Swan Easy Nights was the high point of flavored alcoholic grape juice. A superior vintage. Perhaps the Poser 5 programming team's choice was Mad Dog 20/20. Bound to cause a few flipped bits on a Monday morning.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Hmmm... I don't have a highend graphics card (that's about the only thing that I don't have LOL) I got the standard graphic card that came with my HP... it does the job and pretty fast, expecially with Maya. But a 3D software application not utilizing 3D Acceleration... isn't that kinda odd for such an application? Considering the fact that Poser 5 requires reads the box at least a 500Mhrz (though 700 or greater is recommended) 128MB of RAM (256MB Recommended) 24 bit color display, 1024x768 resolution... A machine of that nature usually comes standard with a 32MB graphic acceleration card (used widely by video games)... baring that in mind... why not utilize it? They are already requiring people to update their systems to run the software, so why not use the graphic acceleration card? Considering the fact that they want to hit a more professional market, one would think that they'd understand that professionals don't want to wait 45+ minutes for a render and hope that it turns out or doesn't need to be redone. IBM before they got their start in the industry once said: "The reason why we dress and act like our company is worth a million dollars, is so that we can one day become a company that is worth a million dollars and if people don't see us that way now... we'll never reach that status." If you want to reach a professional market and expand your company's growth (and the product's growth), you have to act professional and "knownly" release a professional-like product. Somehow, I believe, someone seriously missed the mark on this and it torques me off because I wanted to see CL succeed with this (both personally and professionally). sighs Jack

The lack of acceleration is a puzzle. I can understand that the remaining P4 & perhaps earlier) code may have precluded it except for the fact that FireFly is supposedly new. Having it be software only is strange. They couldn't use Direct 3D since it's Windows only but I assume Open GL is available on the Mac as well. It's probably one of those decisions we'll never know the reason for.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Open GL is avalable for the MAC and very well implemented In MAYA Lightwave And Cinema4DXL under OSX CL Said that they didnt implement it in poser because it would require a major software re-write of poser5.

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IIRC, P5 was supposed to be a major re-write; from the ground up, that was one of the promises. Lack of hardware acceleration (or any other major improvement) is not a mystery to me. Again, it seems CL did very little of their own work on P5.

"What I suspect the real cause of the majority of the issues is stems from the way that all of those "parts" either have been put together and/or how they interact with one another." Taddaaaaa! Houston........we have comprehension. Now I could say. If we had good hardware standards. It wouldn't matter how parts are used together. But I won't poke the bear. ;-) We basically agree. We just say it differently. ScottA

"Again, it seems CL did very little of their own work on P5." Could be, but a complete rewrite would require less familiarity with the old codebase. Contract coders should be able to do that just fine given the specs. Maybe FireFly was already written by someone else (without HW assist) and they just bought it. Maybe Bush and Sadam are secret lovers, I don't care much about that either at this point.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

You recall correctly Jackson, that is what Mr. Cooper said they were doing, although framework and ground are similar in interpretation they could be taken to mean different things - such as "we're working from the Poser 4 framework and bolting things onto it." Whatever, there are lots of things said in this very forum by certain personalities that have since transpired to be, shall we say, transient and inaccurate.

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=439015

Steve Cooper:
It may have been 2+ years since Poser's last release, but from the very start Curious Labs has always been about Poser and putting systems in place to develop and deliver the product. We do have to create other products though, one (as cool as Poser is) won't carry us. That said, we've been working on that next release of Poser for a long time, from the framework up, and in the process, stoking a few other irons in the fire so we aren't a one-trick publishing pony.

Ah ha, perhaps he meant "framework" in the software engineering/programming sense. The framework would dictate the way the windowing, etc. functioned and they indeed seem to have retained the P4 style interface from what I can gather. If they bolted new stuff onto that framework, I can begin to understand some of the problems. Again, cross-platform framework Mac/Windows easier to do but no OS specific features - bad choice.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=912332

And see the trouble with interpretations? People will always interpret something to what they want to read into something. Like the cute little story with you that I came up with and posted at the link above. People will interpret however that they want too. Perhaps, in the future, we should ask for clarification. Might not get it, but obviously in some things we should still ask. Jack

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“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Was the horse a pink pony? ;] Hardware "standards" may be lax, but numerous other software manufacturers seem to surmount it. Rhino seems to work across a wide variety of workstations I build for clients, AutoCad, Lightscape, VIZ. Also across a variety of video cards, although the autodesk products prefer cards with autodesk certified drivers, they run on other cards. Even in the Maya example that was offered, it's probable that the video card requirements were stated upfront to the consumer. [And yes, I used to work with Intergraph systems and cards] Of course, they probably have larger development budgets and hire programmers... Admittedly, there's a world of difference in hardware specs for pro-end workstations as opposed to the wide variety of hardware a low-end app encounters in user systems. And it can also be that the hardware argument doesn't hold nearly as much water as it's proponents would like it to in regards to Poser 5. "because I wanted to see CL succeed with this (both personally and professionally)." Yup, Jack. Judging by some of the magazine reviews, a couple of the reviewers read like the really wanted to see the program work, but weren't quite able to reccomend it as a pro-app.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Or in one review, recommended that people wait up to a year before purchasing... That's gotta hurt.

Let's be honest ... Poser was never going to make it from hobbiest tool to pro level application in a single incarnation - it just wasn't going to happen. However, Poser5 is a BIG step in that direction. Let's recap where Poser is now: 1) Poser5 works well for a large number of people, there is active development in process to help resolve the issue for those with compatability problems. 2) The additional features and rendering options have brought Poser back into the pro-am category, giving them a shot at making the jump to the pro category if they play it right with development over the near to mid term future. Obviously there are some touchy compatability issues involved, and maybe that is because CL didn't have the resources to beta the product incredibly widely ... but the code clearly deos work well for a significant number of people.

Ok, I'm going to give you all a couple of examples of problems with both devices and software. My brother-in-law bought himself a new mouse for his computer but he couldn't get it to work at all. He followed all the installation instructions, tried everything he knew and then called hubby down to try all the things HE knew. Finally, after three hours on the phone with Tech Support they got the problem fixed. You know what it was? Logitech mouse drivers. Yup. It was that simple. They cleaned out all those old logitech drivers and the mouse (which was a MS product) started working the way it was supposed to. But wait, there's more. Not only did the new mouse work, but some of the applications he had been having trouble with started working correctly as well. Go figure, huh? On the other hand, I had an online game that I was part of the alpha testing and then it went to beta. Well, the alpha was running just fine for me, and so did the beta until they ran an update. Suddenly I was getting an error message every time I tried to connect to the server "Error 429: You do not have the proper license to use this functionality" We tried everything. Couldn't get rid of it. Couldn't figure out where it came from. The only thing that fixed it was a complete format c: and a reinstallation of the OS and all the programs. We STILL don't know what caused it or how to fix it. And, guess what, I was the ONLY ONE with this problem. Computers are really strange sometimes. Kate

Not quite Soulhuntre. You see, Poser is a development tool, not a stand alone pro-level app. Features expected at even entry level pro are not present. On top of this, Curious Labs missed the boat completely by excluding export filters TO pro level applications with which they could have marketed Poser to the pro users as a very valid and able plugin. But they didn't. They tried to add pro tools and keep it an amateur app - no doubt with a view to adding another Pro Pack style "extra" later. Losing that export compatibility offered by P4 Pro Pack is going to hurt more than the errors currently inherent in the program. To quote one reviewer. With the Pro Pack, Curious introduced plugins for 3DS Max, Lightwave, Cinema 4D and Maya. None of the plugins (nor Eons Mover 4) work with Poser 5, nor is there an alternative solution at the moment. This is by far and away the greatest impediment to anyone considering upgrading. If you depend on integration with those programs, your best bet is to stick with version four - or at least keep hold of your old copy when you upgrade. True enough, you can export scenes, complete with hair and cloth transformations but procedural textures are lost. There are more than enough fantastic new features to justify buying Poser 5, but it still feels like a work in progress. In six months to a year, when the bugs are ironed out and new plug ins written, it'll be a much better program. It's unfortunately that I can't post the whole review here because of copyright as it makes interesting reading. Summary of that review is Pros: Extensive new feature set, Better rendering - Greatly improved interface. Cons: Worse third party program interaction - Ultra slow rendering - Some features poorly or inadequately implemented. The reviewer tactfully didn't mention the registration process or whether their version was crash prone. Perhaps as an evaluation for review they didn't have to register it and the program wasn't as complete as the release version. I don't know. But essentially, no, Poser is not at the Pro level category or even really at Pro-Am category, it doesn't have the compatibility/export capability to exist at that level. Not even to touch on some of the other things such as OpenGL previewing etc which is much faster than even the Poser 4 render preview settings. and doesn't preclude you working on the figure while waiting for the render and hoping you remember which bit to fix once it's gone through. etc etc etc.... It's still very much an amateur application waiting for pro integration capabilities with some "poorly or inadequately implemented" pro level tools.

i can tell another story: i bought two same ibm hard disks - 40 gb each - and called a friend who is hardware expert and vendor (microsoft certifikate and stuff) to do it. after starting the pc with both disks on, my cd drive had no power! no electricity at all! we checked everything: cards, drivers, other drives software, hardware - nothing. it just wouldn't budge. houres later i pluged one ibm drive off and put in another drive from seagate (also 40 gb) and tadaaa: all is fine! so what does it all tell us? no idea. :o) but i never heard that someone said: "my 3ds max won't run on my system/won't render/gives me c-exceptions/bsod on me". g'night!

I am not sure that you and I disagree on much of this Questor, I certainly feel that the loss of exporting via the pro pack is a serious problem ... then again, it turns out that MaxPose from Konan works fairly well with Poser5 so I am not as stressed as I used to be about it :)

Obviously, I agree wholeheartedly that OpenGL or DirectX preview abilities are a critical feature as well. As for the "poor and inadequate" part, I am not sure what they are - it all works pretty well for me :)

Poser is not an entry level app - it is more powerful than that. And it IS used int he professional production path of several companies I know (including mine) so it is clearly not "just" an amateur app.

Pro-Am fits it well.

No I don't think we do disagree on much Soulhuntre, perhaps just in ways of expressing thoughts. :) I didn't say that the tool wasn't used in pro-level production. It has been used for positional realisation in Jet Li's "The One" and in a couple other movies for rapid display of actor and camera placements and what that appearance may be like. It's entirely possible that it's employed elsewhere in other production houses for similar tasks. The software itself isn't - in my opinion - above amateur level and it's lack of integration into pro-level apps is sad and a gross error. I didn't say it wasn't used be professionals though. :) To be honest I would class it as an entry level app. Simply because a complete newbie can open the package and do things with it without ever touching the manual or asking for help in a forum. Unlike certain other applications which almost demand the user reads the manual at length before they can use the tools provided. That has been a mark of Metacreations applications for some years - their simplicity and ease of use, aimed primarily it seems at the amateur and home user level. Poser is not trying - at least it appears to be trying with the integration of the new tools - to become more professional and certainly I'll agree with you that the tools now are not entry level as there's far more to them that precludes a newbie being able to just click and create. But the program still misses the pro level in many aspects. Again, not arguing with you because we patently do agree on many of these things, just adding a few more pennies from my thoughts. :) I will agree with Pro/Pro-Am "users" but I excuse me while I disagree that the program qualifies, it might soon though. :)

Just out of curiousity, why does a program have to be hard to use in order to be considered professional? I am not asking this because I think Poser is a professional application; it isn't yet.

I agree. The end result should be the determination as to whether it's a pro app or not. If I have to battle the app I'm not going to be able to use it to "create". ps. My boss is convinced that there is a "make video" button on my computer, but I have assured her that we need to upgrade to the system with the "get raise" key. She does not seem to appreciate my humor.

It's amazing how bad info spreads. It used to be you couldn't find a MAX message board without a few people complaining about crashes and video driver conflicts. Now all of a sudden Poser5 is the only software that crashes. The web should come with a sticker: Truth may vary from location to location. ;-) ScottA

It's not that a program has to be hard to use to be professional, but the depth of the tools make it hard to use. For instance, a software package I've been playing with recently. Messiah. The materials lab in that has basic colour usage at the surface level with multiple options for specularity, glow, diffusion, transparency etc etc etc. The next material level below that allows the application of textures as well as the top level colour controls. The textures can be multilayered and alpha channeled. There's another layer of controls beneath that. When you add in the multi level options of the lighting system, it creates even more possibilities, effects and results. It's not something that a new user could just open and "click and create" like they can with Poser. The definition of pro app is not in it's difficulty of use, but in the depth and power of it's controls. Messiah, Lightwave, Max, Maya and others have that level and depth of power to their control functions. Poser does not. Poser DOES allow a complete newbie to click and create without ever worrying about deeper level control functions for the creation of an image/animation. More powerful applications expect you to work at it, but as a result produce far more impressive end results. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with battling an application but rather with the power and versatility that application offers to create the vision inside your head.

Fortunately I have every reason to believe CL is well aware of the need to integrate with other applications and they are actively pursuing their options on making that happen. CL has no intention of trying to "go it alone" on all this and be an end to end pipeline for higher end users, I believe they are fully aware that they need to fit into the "pipeline" of a production house.

They are aware of it, otherwise the filters would not have been introduced with Pro Pack for P4, they did announce I think that they were working on this for a future release, a Poser 5 Pro Pack I suppose. It's unfortunate that if they're as desperate as intimated that they didn't consider this as a greater source of revenue and aim at pro-level as well rather than leave it to a "later date" when they might not even be around. Indication from Cooper's own comment is that they needed the money from this release to survive, that survival may have been greatly influenced by the current situation and the lack of hi-end support. Time will tell of course, but I personally think it was a serious error.

Personally? I would be just as happy if Poser itself was turned into a stand alone plug in that worked in Lightwave, Mya, 3DS Max and oh yeah, btw it comes with a free application it can plug into as well. Just rip the whole engine out and make a component, then build a nice front end of CL's own to stuff it back into. Obviosuly it would have been best if the plug ins were released with the system, and included in the base price. But I would rather th current release than still be without all the features. For now, MaxPose and TruePose get me by.

Yep, I think I can agree with that, though you missed the slightly lower end Cinema4D that's growing in popularity. But yes, that would have been a perfectly reasonable way to have dealt with it. Similar perhaps to certain other software that works in much the same way. Plugs into major applications yet offers a stand alone front end for seperate work if the user so desires. There's a couple like that and they're fairly successful. I know a lot of people have said they'd rather have poser 5 (with bugs) than no poser 5 at all. I'm not so sure about that. I would rather CL had made the decisions to show off and implement Poser 5 where it belongs - in all levels of market - than to release an application that is lacking somewhat and leave themselves in a situation where even more investment, time and energy will be required writing new parts to integrate the old. If they'd done that then they could spend more time refining what they'd released and working on even more nice new shiny toys to plug into Poser with perhaps a larger market share and more income - perhaps. It is a more modular program now, so that would have been feasible I think. But, having said that. I'm not a businessman, I don't have a company to run and my ideas and thoughts might be just so much bullshit. :) Whatever. It's happened now and hindsight won't fix anything. Here's to the future. :D

Agreed :)

Troll steps out from bridge...shrugs off mud on collar and pulls up his trusty nail encrusted hammer. Digs nose and flicks it at scott. Golly gee you boy's and girls seem to be having a fun time here tonight... Makes me feel like I'm back in pennsyltucky with my kin folk hunting wild boar. Why shucks when me and my partner in crime hollerd that the sky was falling nun of you'ns would believe us. Now who is the darn hillbilly. This thread has gave me more laughs than dat dare time when the hogs were a yellerying for more slop right before the ham truck arrived. Wheeeeoo April dat's some mighty fine naked hair renders you got dare. How long did dose baby's take to render like about 10 days or sooooooooo. Yep I had some renders like that myself. Not as nice as yours I may say but pretty fine if I do say so myself. Had my 12 year old hep me. Still trying to figure out how to use this dang machine. After many years who would have guessed I'd still be stompping away trying to figure this demon thing out. Can't be cause of my edumcation cause I did pass the 3rd grade. My momma is mighty proud of that if I may say so myself. Howdy Scott I was at your web thingy and man o man it is so cool you and me must get toghether and share our skills man you good boy. We must have been in school toghether in the 3rd grade because I did some of the same stuff myself.....:) And from one Troll to another you make me so proud. You troll like a pro and believe me when I tell you I'm a pro yup...... Iv'e beena noticing some peeps a moving faster than that dang rabbit I was after some time ago on thir attitudes on this whole thang. Dang kids you making my head spin. YOu's like it or not what is it. I told ya's the program don't like to register and it is slower than molassas whem my sis makes me cookies. It also has got's more critters than my lame dog. But I must thank all the beta testers for this here fine product. Now that my wallet is thinner I don't have to buy the ole lady that polka dot dress she was bugging me about hehehehe. Shoot what do I need money fer, I just live in a trailer park anyhow. As for yun's that say you don't have a stich of problems with the program........I ask you,do you kiss your mamma with that mouth. And I agree wit you'ns I have the programs and don't care if it'n works because I can't work the dang thing anyway I just want the box it's so pretty. I stare at it every night it's so dang pretty. looks good on my deckstop I tell ya! Bows down to the poser god and pray's for a working version hmmmmmmmmmm. or another pretty box called poser 6. Lord knows they aint no other programs out there at all for us poor simple folk running old 2mb systems with the first version of windozzzzzz. Well time to slop my hog's and slap my cat errrrrrr I mean my wife....ey Scott you want some of this here slop mighty fine eating boy......I mean mighty fine..