I do not wish to bash CL (they are not alone), but I can not find "the answer". The beta test team supplied us with great imagery before the release. I saw fantastic hair and spectaculr dynamic effects. The face-room tantalized and at one level I was sold. In fact is, it's only because CL doesn't deal with AmEx that I am not a part of the "frustration club". It gave me time to return to reality. I have been watching the forums for many years and at each release simular "rant" posts occur. The difference is that this time I'm waiting to see how it all pans out. I have used Poser as a tool since its Fractal days and find it very useful. I remember the "c-exeption" error from... was it P3 or 4? I've dealt with Posers development, but I simply no longer have the time to install/uninstall/reinstall/patch/fail/uninstall/reinstall... I have work to do and CL doesn't provide me with a paycheck. What I don't understand, and I hope someone can explain, is why any business would expect its users to pay for software and beta test it. Are we generally a creative community or are we technical troubleshooters? It is true that with today's tools we all have to be a bit of both, but it looks like the scales are a tad off-balance. If I buy a table saw and it doesn't work, I'll return it. I won't take the time to tear it down, call the maufacturer, and put it back together before I use it. The software business is a different model, but I can think of no viable excuse for releasing software that is as "buggy" as P5 seems to be. I will invest in P5 when it becomes a stable package and I hope that CL is still around for another revision a few years from now. Until that time Vicki, Mike and I will sit in the P4 bleachers and let the rest of you figure it out. Hopefully watching and waiting, Visque