Okay, the way I understand the whole Vicky/ Mike and Poser 5 Face Room situation: CL and DAZ are not "playing nice". CL wants $30,000 (each) for Vicky & Mike to be adapted to work in Poser 5's Face Room (for a total of $60,000). DAZ didn't pay CL and now that P5 has been released, Vicky & Mike don't work in the Face Room. (Vicky and Mike will still work fine in the Pose Room and Materials Room, though.) Well, here's a radical idea for everyone: why don't we, the Poser community, start a collection to pay for the inclusion of Vicky and Mike in next version/ upgrade of Poser 5? If there are 100,000 members on Renderosity alone, this comes to $60,000/100,000 or 60 cents per person! (And this doesn't include the members at 3D Commune and Renderotica and Thralldom and RuntimeDNA and PoserPros and...) I can certainly afford 60 cents (heck, I'll throw in an even $1.00!)... especially if it means using Mike in the Face Room and getting him to look like me (without the need for morphs)! Of course, I could also make the argument that DAZ has given us so much cool free stuff (the Gorilla, Stephanie, etc), that we should give back to them. :) What does everyone think? Is this do-able?

VanishingPoint... Advanced 3D Modeling Solutions

Certainly an interesting idea. The logistics would be a nightmare, I would think.

Yes its doable but human nature being what it is I don't think it will get done. I would throw in my dollar however.

If its possible, I'd like to know what's involved in making them or any figure compatible with the face room. If its an internal process that only Curious Labs can hard code in, then fair enough I can understand that. But if its some thing that can be done with notepad and number crunching then that may be a solution also. I know there are folks out there who love that sort of stuff. For example look at The Taylor, Easy Pose and sundry Poser file editors and Python utilities.

I wouldn't do it. I think CL should do it for us, as customers who bought their product. I refuse to pay another dollar to them when we haven't gotten all we paid for yet. Marque

Attached Link: SingularInversions FaceGen mesh services

Or Daz could contract directly with SingularInversions, the makers of the face room plugin for umm.... oh, $950 - $1450 and have them do it, sans $29,000 markup. Or they could buy the SI sdk and include FaceGen in their upcoming app, with Daz products compatibility.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Considering the impressive cash inflow this last week on top of reasonable sales (given the bragging I'm hearing in ALL the forums), DAZ could afford to negotiate face room deals for any of its figures, separately or in bulk. DAZ chooses not to, for business reasons of its own. If they choose to invest the money elsewhere that is their decision. Kupa has indicated what would be necessary for CuriousLabs to make a figure integrate with the FaceRoom, and why the time was valued at that figure. My response to those of you who think that this should have been included as standard in P5 is simple: why should DAZ be given special treatment? If CuriousLabs makes the Millennium figures compatible with the Face Room, then should it not also handle Dacort's figures the same way? Jim Burton's? Both companies look at cost of opportunity when they decide where and how to spend their money. Surely it would be foolish for us to involve ourselves in their spending decisions. Carolly

How about this, since DAZ owns mimic now how about CL pay 60k to DAZ to make mimic ready Judy/Mike. No? Well, maybe they can stop spitting, shake hands, and balance the deals out.

By make, I mean license Judy/Don for Mimic use.

I don't think we'll ever see a Face Room for Mike and Vicky to be produced by either DAZ or CL. And here's why

Thinking on a strictly business term, I think CL-Egisys hasn't done a smart move with asking too much from DAZ, and with the EULA. Here's my own, personal, and by no means with any pretention of truthfulness, interpretation of the situation.
All that follows, is purely my imagination about it... nothing I know of facts, except for those that have been published on the forums!

Having that said, here I go with my wild imagination: :-)

Let's say it straight, folks: Poser 4 is a super program, but what REALLY made it "take off" to the huge big thing it is today, compared to 1999 when it first came out, it was Zygote-DAZ's relentless support during the three years 1999-2002, in improving enormously the quality of the meshes available for Poser, improving the quality of the textures, creating a real MARKET around Poser! Of which EVERYONE (including Renderosity and CL itself) is enjoying the benefits today. This must not be forgotten. If Zygote-DAZ were not there, chances are that wwe would have progressed very little from the days of Dork and Posette. And Poser would probably not be the big thing it is today.
It was the dedication and faith of DAZ, in strongly believing in the commercial possibilities of Poser, that literally not just "opened", but "created" a market for it. Really out of nothing.

Now: this shows the great professionality and power that's behind DAZ. A thing that CL should not have underestimated. But they probably did, and this was an error in my opinion. You know: if a potential enemy is dangerous, you should ally with it first. Then perhaps fight it later when you are totally sure to be stronger. Old military wisdom, that is valid in business too. ;-)

There is an old saying in Italy that goes "chi troppo vuole nulla stringe", meaning "who wants too much, holds nothing".
I think that CL-Egisys has asked too much immediately from DAZ.
Because if they asked a more reasonable price, to start with, and if they set up a looser EULA, maybe they would have given up some immediate income, but they would have in change kept DAZ "on their side", and this would have benefited all parties, but I think, mostly CL. Because it would have meant that DAZ would have had a primary interest itself in keeping P5 alive and well.

Now, what's going to happen? This is my interpretation: CL-Egisys and their EULA have convinced DAZ that CL didn't want to keep together and contribute to the financial success of Poser 5, sharing of course part of the benefit.
DAZ understood that CL-Egisys wants to enjoy the whole cake. After all, I can imagine the thoughts on Egisys minds: CL is the creator of Poser, they established a standard, why should they share?

And here's the error in my opinion. Because now, DAZ will care less and less about Poser, and more and more about their own production and marketing strategies. Two fields in which they have already given large proves, that they're terrific at.

DAZ, I think, has understood that their future won't be safe in CL-Egisys's hands, because CL-Egisys, with their high financial requests, and mostly with the EULA, can keep hanging a Damocles' sword on DAZ heads. And if DAZ accepted to committ such a great investment in CL's Poser 5, with such a danger on their heads, they would have committed a potential suicide. At any time CL-Egisys could have thought that opportune, they could have cut the thread and let the sword fall on DAZ head.

So, DAZ came up with the only possible decision they could take, in my opinion: in order to assure themselves a safe future, they have to develop an application standard that can grant them to be independent from CL-Egisys's will. Something that they can invest in without being threatened by CL's EULA. We're not talking small sums here. We're talking important money figures, and the future existence of a company and their employees work. So I can fully understand DAZ concerns. For single independent merchants, it's different, at worst they can lose 2-3 months of work. But for companies it's different. No wise company would invest a penny in development for an application whose license implies, in fact, the total dependency of those investments on another company's will. That would have been business idiocy.

So, DAZ I think was really forced to come up with their new application and everything that will follow. Of course, there'll be a transition period during which they'll still continue to support Poser (Poser 4, not Poser 5). This in order to make money to survive and invest until they're ready with the new software. I interpret the launch of the Platinum club within this view: a quick, effective way to raise important funds now, immediately. Probably because it's now, immediately that they need to invest in some strategical development for the future application.

I foresee a time when DAZ will continue to produce and sell for Poser, but mostly on brokering terms, using their onw best energies for the development of the new "poserish" platform. The Platinum club is a very smart way to "scrape the bottom of the comb" of older products that for one reason or another (too high price, too little visibility, whatever) didn't do much well in their previous "DAZ life". In other words, on more "business-like" terms, DAZ is converting part of their warehouse into cash.
At the same time, by adding new content to Platinum section, DAZ can keep hold of their customers line for a long time (membership is one year). This will grant DAZ a very good base to start with with advertising the new soft when ready.

Then, when the new software will be ready, I imagine a second transition time when DAZ will run both together (new app and support to Poser 4), until the new app is established.
Then, the final phase: when they'll be strong enough, they'll drop all Poser development for sure, to support only their new application standards.

What about CL? They obviously are convinced that they can do without DAZ. Else they woulnd't have asked so much for the face room, and they wouldn't have put on such a restrictin EULA. it must be a marketing choice and strategy, I refuse to think that CL and Egisys did that blind, improvising.
Probably CL-Egisys (again, my total speculation) is developing a new structure for development of Poser content, that could take the place of what DAZ is now, and let CL enjoy not only the income of the Poser sales, but also that of the content development. Which, I suspect, is the REAL big cake to eat.

Now, we'll see who's going to win: will CL be able to gather and organize a content development structure as powerful, efficient, and creative as DAZ is? If they do, they may use their "edge" of being the Poser creators themseves, and the fact that Poser is "the" standard of today, while DAZ's app would have to start from scratch, in order to win the war.
Or, will DAZ's application be so powerful to effectively replace Poser? if this shall be the case, then DAZ would take advantage of the edge of being undisputably the best and most professional structure of Poser development content today, and win the race.
Or, and this is the third possibility, the two forces will equal, and then we would watch for some years at something completely new and unseen in the Poser world: COMPETITION.

Well... this may well be science fiction, imagination... I really have no information whatsoever... it's just my own free speculation... but who knows... there might be also a part of truth in it! :-)

Anyway, and here I end.... I think that a much wiser move for both companies would have been to keep together and cooperate... but it seems to me that while DAZ still wanted it, CL-Egisys, as I said, aimed at the whole cake this time. One thing is sure: if a true competition will arise, the most likely to benefit from it will be us end users. it'll mean more offer and lower prices. But there'll probably be a transition phase during which Poser life will be hard for end users too.

ok... end of the speculation, beginning of bed time... LOL

I think that, be this all true, or the delirium of a Saturday night spent sick at home... we're going to see interesting times in the next future, about Poser and... the likes! Whatever those likes are going to be!

Orio: makes sense to me; and I hope Anton's involved in the lighting set up of DAZs' new product s. All they'd have to do is an app with all Poser 4's capabilities, the ability to clear the materials, add cameras, good lighting options and a workable interface. Home free. I'll wait.

I'l throw in my dolla.

Not commenting on the analysis, just the suggestion that the products in the Platinum Club are old non-sellers. That's entirely false. Remember, DAZ hired Anton. Those are his products in the club which were previously brokered items. They also, obviously, made some deal with the three texturers whose textures for those products are also involved. I think DAZ's planning for the Platinum Club has been a long time in the making..probably even before Poser 5 and its Eula ever came out. They may even have had it in mind before they hired Anton.

Spit, I have the greatest respect for Anton's talent. He's amazing in what he does! I did not mean to imply that his stuff doesn't sell, on the contrary, it must sell very well, else DAZ wouldn't have signed him! I was just presenting a "spectrum" of generic possiblities at the base of the choices for the Platinum club. No actual reference to any name or artist, nor any assertion, was meant. I didn't even check yet the whole set that is there in the Platinum area, although I have a card. And I didn't have the faintest idea that there was Anton's stuff only in there. If it's Anton's only, then of course my generic assumption was wrong, and DAZ actually chose some of their best products to go into the Platinum area. My apologies to Anton especially should he feel offended, really, it was totally unintentional and unaware from my part. On the contrary, I purchased some of his creations in the past, and surely I'll buy more, because I really love them, and I can surely praise them. :-)

Frankly I'm fed up with the CL/Daz wrangling. If I hadn't found the Mike figure, I'd use Poser rarely. Mike and Vicky provided a BIG boost to the Poser product. There are more cloths, hair, morphs, textures for Mike and Vicky than was ever dreamed of by CL when they released Poser. The community here has made Poser one of the prime 3D products, in large part based on Mike and Vicky. I know there are other products out there besides Daz's. However, I've never seen an alternative to Mike. CL has never provided a figure anywhere near as useful as Mike and Vicky. Taking all this into consideration, you'd think that Daz and CL could come to some agreement on standards. CL is shooting itself in the foot over this one, and Daz should be working on P5 friendly products in spite of the EULA. It took Phil C to provide us with a free skullcap for Mike and Vicky. Daz should have released free ones the same day P5 shipped. There is a sorry lack of P5 products available. Why? Because of the EULA, because the two most popular figures aren't fully supported, and because no one wants to enter the fray. There are less than a dozen P5 products on sale here in the marketplace. Most of them are the great hair packages from Neftis. I spend about $100 a week on Poser related products, a good part of it at Daz. I belong to every subscription site I can find. I check free stuff on 5 sites twice a day (maybe I should get a life). I read the forums and try to make intelligent comments. I put up with bugs and buggy sites. I'd gladly give $100 to a fund to get Mike and Vicky P5 compatible, I'd give $200 to see CL and Daz behave like adults and realize that they need each other. CL provides no extra content, Daz doesn't have a Poser-like program for sale. Daz will eventually come out with a Poser-like product. If they're smart, they'll include P5 compatibility. However, I haven't heard of a release date yet. I don't know what features this vaporware will have. It may be wonderful. Right now though, I've got P5 and use Mike. There are 7 tabs on the P5 interface. One of them has been saying "coming soon" since I got it, the other is useless to me since Don is so inadequit. I love the products both companies make. But sometimes I just want to take Kupa and whoever is in charge at Daz, spank them and sit them in a corner with no milk and cookies until they learn to get along.

Orio, that is a very intuitive analysis, well thought out and probably very likely. It will be a very interesting situation. Has CL cut their nose off to spite their face? Time will tell! If DAZ is smart (and I'm sure they are), they will be monitoring these forums very carefully and answer all users needs(within reason)with their software release. If they have a full visioned and stable piece of software, and are able to release it soon, they could take advantage of the sticky situation that CL currently finds themselves in. In this game momentum is everything and perception is reality.

Pdxjims, yes, for sure keeping together would have been a wiser choice for everyone. But I tell you, I can understand both. CL-Egisys on one side, they want to make the most out of their "baby", whichi is the fruit of their own genius. And Daz, they know they largely contributed to the success of what Poser is today, and probably felt a little "betrayed" when CL asked the huge price. So maybe, there's a little of this letdown in the decision of revealing publicly that detail by DAZ. I believe (I might be wrong of course) that, apart form the financial aspects I described above, there might be this human factor too. Probably DAZ heads were let down in seeing that their contribution to the success of Poser didn't bring concrete gratefulness from CL heads. And also CL heads probably during these three years have suffered in seeing that all their hard work and dedication to Poser did only bring little into their pockets, compared to what it could have been and what they had deserved, and much only into DAZ's pockets. Maybe the thing fell off of everyone's hands at a point, it fell on the floor, and it broke. But I think it was inevitable that the ways of CL and DAZ, either solidly join in a tight partnership, or eventually split. It's just too risky to depend on someone else's program for existence, and too silly to take advantage of maybe (who knows) not more than 10% of an application's market potential. Really the DAZ position was the more at risk. Never forget about Extensis, the plugin producers. SOme years ago, Extensis MaskPro was the leader tool fur cutouts in Photoshop. But it was enough that with version 5 (or 5.5 can't remember) Adobe implemented some "magic" tools for selection, and.... flop. Mask Pro was dead and buried in a day's timespan, and Extensis had to redesign their product line a big deal. Same with Phototools plugin and version 6 of Photoshop. Life of plugin companies is hard. Your life really depend's on the mother application company if you're not wise enough to differentiate your product line significantly. In a way, DAZ currently is for CL what a plugin company is for Adobe Photoshop. Just too risky for them to go on like this, and at the first "symptoms of tempest", they took the plunge for the new app. How can't they be understood?

Lapis, thanks for the kind words, and yes, these are going to be VERY interesting months! But maybe the things are even more developed that I described before, and not necessarily for CL's worst. Have you wondered, for isntance, why the Content Paradise hasn't started yet? And have you wondered about the very existence of Content Paradise? I did and to me, it may well mean that CL-Egysis is really at an advanced state with their new production line of Poser content, that I phantasized before. It is possible that this slight delay in Content Paradise is necessary for them to fine tune some details before inaguration. And I would not be surprise if the inauguration of content Paradise would unveil a new Poser store by Egisys, with new Poser content for sale in it. In other words, the birth of the competitor for DAZ. Should this be true, then DAZ would do better hurry up with their Poser competitor software. But again, it's all "vaprothread" from my part, LOL! Maybe not a 1% of what I imagined, will turn true! :-) Who knows, really. We can just wait and see. And enjoy the show! :-)

I just wanted to add for a close, that perhaps I read too much Asimov!! ROTFL! :-)

You're leaving messages on a part of Content Paradise. It's not a Curious Labs toy, nor an EGIsys toy, it's the marketplace here and perhaps a couple of other sites. CL take a profit cut from the stores that have opted in - which I believe comes out of their profit cut from the vendors. Not sure who else if anyone is involved - probably find RDNA in there as they provided content for Poser 5. Competitor for Daz? They've had that in spades for a couple years. Renderosity, 3DCommune and all the little places dotted around the net. This place has probably been the largest competitor. Why isn't Content Paradise running yet? Hrrm, better to ask Curious Labs and Renderosity. Probably server integration and software more than anything else. Curious Labs missed the boat with content provision. Missed it so dramatically they're probably still draining the harbour out of their clothes. Daz are used to competition in the field of content and they appear to have grown with it. The future should be interesting we'll see who manages to survive it - if anyone.

Orio, I agree with everything you've said. However, your analogy between Photoshop plug in software and Poser isn't quite right. CL doesn't provide what Daz does, quality high res versatile figures. They don't have hundreds of body textures, pose sets, clothing, morphs for their products. I wish CL did. I'd buy them. I'd buy the third party stuff made for them. But I'll be d*mned if I spend money on the Dork or Don in their present limited state. I had hopes for Don and Judy. But they ain't Mike and Vicky by a long shot. Yes, they can be made to look acceptable, barely. But compared to Mike they're nothing. CL can't even get Content Paradise up a month after P5 shipped, so I don't expect them to start releasing good figures in the near future. And it would be great if CL opened Content Paradise next week with a set of great new high res figures and textures and cloths and hair. However, since we expect there to be a SR-3 sometime, I think they're concentrating on that for a while. Also we've got a LOT of money invested in Daz products. There's going to be a Daz legacy in Poser for a long time, and CL should recognize this. As for Daz, I see things here about their new program. Great. When? What will it do? How much will it cost? I think it'd be a great boon to have another - compatible - posing product. I'll buy it when it comes out. Someday. I've seen no specs, no teases, no renders, no list of features. If its going to be released before Christmas, great. If not, then Daz should support the current P5 product in terms of Mike and Vicky. They should sell some dynamic clothing and P5 hair to support all of Daz's customers on the P5 platform. I love the new Platinum Club. I'd love it more if they included skullcaps for Mike and Vicky. Right now I watch two great companies that have a duty to their investors, not to mention their customers, behaving like kindergarten students. Frankly, I wouldn't buy stock in either company right now (I'm not even sure you can). Unless Daz comes out with a P5 equivalent product soon, or CL starts making acceptable meshes, they should come to a compromise and realize that for at least the short term, they need each other. They both suffer because of this, and so do we. They should both be ashamed of themselves.

"Also we've got a LOT of money invested in Daz products." It is for this very reason that if DAZ jumps out of the gate soon with their software they will have a huge advantage unless of course, like Orio has speculated, CL is sitting on an exciting array of content paradise to be released with a bang. If Don and Judy are any indication of what awaits though, then DAZ would have the clear advantage, but time is of the essence here. A stable, bug free product released from DAZ soon, that adresses most issues seen here in this forum, would be a serious blow to CL at this point.

It's all well and good demanding that DAZ come out with Poser 5 stuff, but they are extremely concerned over provisions in the EULA, as are a fair number of other content providers. So, they aren't going to go there anytime soon. I'm afraid that's something you're just going to have to accept until Curious Labs find a lawyer that can do something in less time. The discussion of this situation is one of the longest threads in Poser history over at Poser Pros (http://www.poserpros.com) Why don't Daz want to open the box? Read the thread there started by Jim Burton, you can't miss it, it's the general discussion forum and 67 pages long. Lots of reading, lots of ranting and a couple promises that are yet to be delivered. But some very concerned people in that thread, people who provide content, yet won't go near Poser 5. It's long, it'll take a while, but some of it is actually worth reading.

A lot of it is worth reading as long as you skip past the dorks who intentially set out to derail the thread several times, but didn't succeed. I think the poserpros thread IS the longest poser related thread in Poser history to date, no "one of the" about it, LOL. :o) Anyone know of one longer? I could be wrong. I think it would be an interesting read, if someone knows of one that is longer.

CL said that new animals were coming and that they would be in Content paradise when it was opened up. soooo. who's making the models? CL themselves? is CL going to start signing up content providers?

will the new Daz 'poserish' app have 3d party plugins?

I wish some of the mystery's would just be answered. there is SO much speculation going on. long rants, lots of reading with no answers. it's getting very tiring.

What a bunch of crap.Are people saying CL wanted $60,000 bucks to make 2 POSER FIGURES compatible with the face room?What a bunch of shit that is.THE PROGRAM IS CALLED POSER for Gods sake.POSER FIGURES SHOULD WORK in ALL ROOMS.If that is true in ANY way,then screw Curious Labs.How greedy and petty.The damn program should work with POSER Figures,and Mike2 and Vicky2 ARE Poser figures SOLD to ALOT of POSER users,and CL was DAMN aware of this.So much for me giving the benefit of ANY doubt,IF this crap is true.If it is not,then I eagerly await Curious Labs to FIX THE PROBLEM.

I think if they remain silent about these allogations then the answer is obvious.

I hope not.Because if it is,I know who I WILL NOT be supporting EVER again.

In my humble opinion, Poser did not become interesting at all until Victoria and Mike hit the scene. It was a symbiotic relationship. I don't approve at all of the way in which DAZ has been effectively pushed aside by CL now. From my very small, very personal perspective, DAZ has stood beside the 3D community all along, surprising and delighting us with one wonderful product after another, one gift after another. How many days have been brightened for all of us by Mystery Models, the Platinum Club, etc? I have not had this much fun since I was a little girl. I know it's just business to them, but they do it in a way that makes customers happy. So more power to them. Curious Labs, on the other hand, does not really give me the same warm fuzzy feeling inside. Not anymore. Off the top of my head I can think of a lot of things that "rubbed me the wrong way" about the release of Poser 5: the registration scheme, the EULA, the fact that there are no new animals in Poser 5 and the buggy program itself all add up to a disappointing shopping experience. I am, however, grateful to CL for having made Poser 4 the great program it is. This way, I can stick with it until something better comes along.

Seems greed motivated vs community motivated but I'd really like to hear from CL on all of this though. They deserve the right to air their position/motivation in all of this!

I don't think CL has to make Mike/Vicky/any character compatible with the face room, it would be nice if CL would at least give the info to people who want to do the work. If CL did indeed make Mike/Vicky compatible, they would be opening a large can of worms. They would then have to answer why they didn't do so for any other character, such as DaCort's. As far as DAZ coming out with their own program. It isn't out yet. There are no specs. What will people do if it is released with as many bugs as Poser 5? Does DAZ have the resources to cope with a project this size? We'll soon see. Should be an interesting ride!

Yes, it will be interesting to see how this shakes out. My own experience with both companies tells me that one of them is a well-run company with forward thinking people at the top. They are responsible and don't release junk; and, when they make a mistake, they fix it as soon as they can, and they are able to fix it. They also seem to respect their customers: they don't lie to them, B.S. them with excuses, or treat them like thieves. The other company seems to be, well, the opposite of all that. So which company will come out on top if there are competing products? Judging from what I read in these forums, I give it a 50/50 shot since so many folks seem to still prefer and support Company #2.

And I'll bet they don't have posts deleted either. Unbelievable. Well I have my answer now. Not the one I'd hoped for either.

A very good point: if CL wanted $30,000 (each) to adpat Vicky and Mike to be used in the Face Room, how much would be to adapt Eve or Dina (or the others)? Were those figures' creators given an "adpat your figure" and at what price? Or was the offer only given to DAZ because their figures are the most popular? Okay, then, let's extend the collection to inclue ANY figure that wants to be adapted for the Face Room. Surely it can't be that hard to do... especially when we have so many talented members already making complex cr2 figures! :) Interesting companies, though, CL and DAZ...

VanishingPoint... Advanced 3D Modeling Solutions

Word from Steve Cooper was that figure was supposed to be a starting point for working up a real price. I think Orio pretty much has is correct above though, and the $.60 per Poser user "donation" is pretty much a moot point, DAZ isn't going to have anything to do with Poser 5 unless the EULA is changed and/or clarified. As I make most of my income at DAZ I also haven't installed Poser 5, it just sits in the box, waiting.

There is one BIG difference between CL and DAZ at the moment and has been for the last while, most specifically round about the time P5 was released. And that is: Finances. CL released P5 in a BIG hurry before it was fully developed, beta testing wasn't anywhere near ready, beta testers' opinions were ignored. Judy and other figures were not fully developed yet - but cash ran out, Kupa couldn't pay salaries and the product HAD to go out to allow the company to survive. I believe that CL was too ambitious with the level of new features, and development ate up too much time and resources. They could have left out the hair thing altogether for instance. They let their most devoted customers, the first adopters, do the beta testing. The SP releases were quite simply planned as patch fixes before product release, instead of being included in a finished, stable, fully developed product. (This is a very common practice particularly amongst small players on the PC scene - I worked with PC R&D for many years, saw this happen umpteen times) DAZ on the other hand has a rock solid financial base, premier status as content providers for P4 and considerable turnover for a fairly small amount of development. They can work quietly on their app as the Vicki/Mike etc stuff sells in bushels. And they have Anton on board!!! Also, CL's decision to choose RDNA to handle a lot of development of content for P5 didn't sit well with DAZ, of course..... I'm sure RDNA were in a completely different price range, so I can't say I'm very surprised at CL's decision though. And the EULA thing is not so much fun either. So one wonders - is the CL reputation after the P5 debacle so damaged that they lose their customer base - or will they survive? Will P5 sales be enough to tide them over? Will DAZ' new app kill Poser, even?? What a strange thought... but not impossible. It depends partly on the app's functionality and not least on the price. I betcha Platinum members will get it for $1.99! :] Fish

Well Fish, I think you have added good points. If you're right, that CL is badly out of cash, then I am happy to have upgraded to P5, even if it was a big effort for my poor finances. I think that the creators of Poser deserve our support in a bad moment. After all, they conceived and created Poser in the first place. Then, of course, CL will have to prove that they deserve our support. I think they're showing good commitment for the moment, with the patches (although I have to say, I'm one of the lucky ones who never had big problems with P5). As I wrote on my previous messages, I think that DAZ is terrific for professionality and marketing ability. I have no doubt that should they come up with an alternative to Poser, it'll be a great program, too. Jim: maybe it can really be all narrowed down to what you write about the EULA. After all, a big challenge can mean big gain for one, but also big risks for both. And while the perspective of victory may be tempting, the risks would be potentially lethal. So it's possible that before tht challenge starts, CL and DAZ meet again and find a common ground for an agreement. CL by smoothing out the EULA and significantly lowering the price for the face room, obtaining in change that DAZ either gives up the application project, or releases an application with some limits, not to become real competition for Poser. DAZ by "resizing" their application project, obtaining in change a much better price for the face room, a new EULA that gives them warranties, and saving a lot of money in R&D for the new app. Should this be the case, then perhaps they're already having meetings going on while we write on this thread. ;-) Or, they'll really go head to head for a big challenge. We'll see. I think that maybe just before the jump, they'll want to sit down at a table and see if they can come up with an agreement that can make a reasonable good for both.

"CL by smoothing out the EULA and significantly lowering the price for the face room, obtaining in change that DAZ either gives up the application project, or releases an application with some limits, not to become real competition for Poser." Hmmm I don't forsee this happening. There is more to all of this than what is apparant on the surface and very little of it has to do with hard feelings on either company's part. From what I've gathered, it wasn't just the face room compatibility that was the problem. There were a lot of things that Daz would have liked to have seen in a new application that didn't show up in P5, things that I'm sure Daz felt the community would like to have seen too. I don't speak for daz, don't know for sure, and there may be even more to it than that.

Yes mabfairyqueen, as always, what emerges to the surface, of a company's situation, is barely to 10% of what lies beneath the surface. It's really an iceberg situation. Basically, we're just having fun speculating. :-) And nothing more.

I dont' want Daz to give up the application project, Orio. I would prefer compatibility with at least Poser 4-- I'm one of those with thousands of dollars of Poser 4 money. And about $15 invested in poser 5 just in case I ever open the box. And just in case Daz is listening, here's what I hope to find in the Daz application, when and if it ever becomes more than vapor. Stability-- goes without saying. Good quality renderer with an acceptable balance between complexity and speed. In other words I don't expect better rendering to be as fast as Poser 4, but I don't want it slower than Vue either. Or I will just make the decision to take Vue d'Esprit as my Poser renderer. Gradual-- not steep-- learning curve. That means excellent manual, video guides if necessary, not too much unknown territory at once. That's my chief complaint of Poser 5. Waaay too much and much of it is unstable. The hair and clothification are interesting but not necessary to me. Advanced working with Materials, radiosity, refractions, caustics, atmospherics, genuine undo and real lighting control are super important. Don't need all of them at once, want all of them eventually. Complete compatibility with all of the Millenium figures and their add-ons. Don't even think of putting out a new proggie if you expect me to buy all this cr@p again. You know, Cl could have had an influx of cash if they'd put out a 4.5 with more stability, add-on libraries, just a small bump up in the renderer-- possibly to include python improvements. I would have bought it. Shoot, I'd still buy it. But the clock's ticking. Any other software would have put out such an upgrade. I'm suspicious that CL can not fix the stability issues. Ever. Just one sight of that wretched Gui, made me sick. Not again, not this outdated, horribly unecessary-- does anyone actually use that toolbar??-- Unreadable Gui. I should send my $300 glasses bill to CL. One month at 1200by whatever and I was nearly blind. Emily

Yeah Emily, I'm always hoping that the Kai Krause interfsce concept will die someday.... I don't demand default Windows grey interface, but the KPT/Bryce/Poser 'revolutionary' style of interface is a total pain, always has been. I own Bryce 5 but I can't use it - the interface is so stupid, it makes me furious! Orio - Kupa virtually said as much (about money shortage) in a post some months ago, about how he could hardly afford to buy food - there was no money for salaries. That was about 6-8 weeks before P5 was released. Here in this forum someplace. And what I was hoping for in P5 was NOT fancy new stuff like the Face Room and such, but rather stability, no crosstalk, a good renderer, good lights, decent handling of MATs, smarter pose files, stuff like that. Basic stuff. And really good new characters. Judy is an abortion in my view. In other words, I would have liked to see a Version 4.5..... I would have been happy to pay for it. As it is now, I won't buy P5 until it is reported stable and useful - I can't stand apps that hang and carry on... I've been in the 'puter game for nearly 20 years, I've been there, done that. As an example - I didn't switch to Win2K until this year. I won't touch XP until I HAVE to. Why should I? :] Fish

I hope if they, (CL), do go belly up they fix it so we can still use the copies we have. 8^( Marque

There's just one problem that you guys are missing I think. I see lots of requests for Poser 4 compatibility. But Curious Labs have copyrighted the formats for Poser 4. They own the file types etc. Now, just for one moment imagine the world of hurt that Daz will find themselves in if they do make their app compatible with Poser 4. Curious Labs would have them in a court so fast their legs with burn off. Perhaps, just perhaps a conversion utility could be constructed to read the text from a poser 4 character and convert it to the new format - after all, Alias Wavefront own the obj format so CL can do dick about that. But, they can and WILL protect their own propietary formats and processes. Bet your bottom dollar they will. So, how's about you stop asking for things that will get Daz into a law suit, and think about alternatives? I know for one that I would hate to lose all the stuff I have for poser 4 - such as figures and clothing. In all honesty importing the models I care nothing about. I can set all that up myself. But the figures and the clothes. They're important to me, but not so much that I want to see these two companies in a court room hurling more mud at each other. Just a thought, take it how you want. :)

Marque:

Curious Labs have promised they will do that. you can interpret that promise however you wish based on the evidence so far presented from that company. But they did promise. :)

Questor, Vue D'Esprit has Poser 4 compatibility. You can import smoothly into the program, textures and all and use their much better renderer. I don't see CL taking them to court. That's what I want. If there is a posing aspect to the application Daz is working on, then I would hope for and expect a means of converting Millenium figures and their add-ons to whatever format the new application used. Doesn't have to Be a Cr2, does have to recognise and convert Cr2's or offer a supplementary program that can do so. Shouldn't be hard, as everyone always says, we're talking about text files here. Emily

Oh, and I do realize the Poser 5 Eula may contravene that conversion I mention, but Daz hasn't signed that contract. And considering it involves Daz's own products, it sounds more and more like restraint of trade to me. However, IANAL [iamnotalawyer] Emily

Vue d'Esprit has poser compatibility because Eon worked with Curious Labs to create it. Note that their import filter checks for the serial number of your Poser application and checks against an internal record whether it's valid or not. If not, it doesn't work. So, they didn't create that puppy on their own, they licensed it from Curious Labs. If you check a later thread, you'll find a quite short and upleasant comment from someone at Curious Labs having a bad hair day telling a Vue user that "they're on their own" in regards to Poser 5 imports. So it appears even more so, that this sort of filter is highly dependant on co-operation from Curious Labs. Vue 4 imports Poser 4 stuff. Vue 4 cannot import Poser 5 stuff, nor can Mover. Want to guess why?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12368&Form.ShowMessage=918226

My guess is that CL doesn't have the SDK for Poser 5 done yet. They are too busy trying to fix Poser 5. Now whether CL will ever release a SDK in the future remains to be seen.

There is a thread on the Vue forum concerning this as well. Lynne from E-On has posted in it.

Thanks Jcleaver, I couldn't find the link to thread at the Eon forum and wasn't aware that Lynne had posted here.

The only of value in a poser file is object information. DAZ would need nothing else. DAZ could write an app to strip this out of a poser file, and there is nothing CL could do.

Actually untrue. They don't need an app to strip object information as that is contained in the object file in the geometries folder - all they need to do is import that, or read the object information. But it's not the object that makes a figure poseable or conforming. That requires a lot of parameters, including but not limited to rotation, fall off zones, virtual positioning in 3dspace etc. etc. That information cannot be automatically created in a program, it requires, nay "needs" user input. Try importing a figure into Poser 4 made with a PIF file - and see how well it works. That's where the fun starts. That's where the problems also start. In order for a poser figure to retain not just it's appearance (object file) but it's useability (cr2), the set-up and parameters that make it poseable must also be interpreted. That would require importing Curious Labs protected file structures. It's possible it could be done inside the law as given and inside the EULA structure of Poser 4, but "I" don't know how, I'm not a programmer. However, I would be extremely nervous of screwing around with a file format and structure that belongs to another company without that company's permission, and I can see no way at all that Curious Labs would give that permission to Daz allowing them to compete directly in a market that Curious Labs have had a monopoly in for several years.

I just hope the DAZ app will use plain text data files. Think of all the inovation that has come about due to the ascii text file used by poser! Does anyone sell textures without MAT poses anymore? Plus, with such an easy to read format, there will always be someone givine away a free app to convert from 1 format to the other (and back). eric

Wheee! This thread is such fun! I wonder if anyone from Daz or CL would care to comment on all the things we've brought up. It'll be interesting to see what they say.

I just came up with an idea. How about a scheduled chat here to help Daz and CL work out their problems? Lets all get in on it real time. Didn't Barbara Walters do something like that with Anwar Sadat and Menachim Begin? How about it, people? Lets ask both companies to sit down with us all and tell us their plans and see if we can help them work out their differences. I know, it ain't gonna happen, and if we did get them together online with everyone, probably nothing would be settled. But I bet it'd be fun (evil wicked grin).

But we know what their plans are. Curious Labs have released Poser 5 and intend getting their foot in the door of content provision by proxy by tying in with Renderosity and unannounced "other sites", taking a rake off the top. Daz already provide content and are getting in on the application side of things. What's there to find out? Neither of them are going to tell "us" their business plans nor reveal "in company" secrets like on bloody Oprah. Neither of them are in charge of millions of pissed off people in a foreign country. And quite frankly what did Barabra Walters achieve? Last I checked those two particular countries were still pissed at each other. Work out their problems? See above. Curious Labs are getting in on the content provision. Daz are getting into applications. You don't "work out" something like that. You compete, and hopefully kill off the competition. It's called business or capitalism whichever you prefer. :) Hehe. Live chat? Here at Renderosity the new partner of CL)? Those two? ROTFLMAO You'd be better off hiring Dr. Seuss to talk to them. Fun? I can think of better fun to have with a roll of barbed wire and two hand grenades. :)

I just hope the DAZ app will use plain text data files Yeah, that would be nice. Nothing like hand editing a cr2 to get something to work, or find out what happens when you connect part b to part d and turn dial e. :) Actually I do agree with this. The plain text format of the cr2 is such a bonus for editing and changing stuff around that simply can't be done in the program itself that it'd be pretty boring without it. OK, lots of other apps don't use plain text and are probably faster as a result, but they're not so much fun in a editor. :) Cr2Edit, Cr2 Editor, morph manager, mover and all the other utilities have made Poser content creation almost bearable. It'd be a shame to lose all that functionality.

Questor, You would need the morph information thats in the cr2 file. DAZ would have to have a new program written. DAZ would have hire programmers do this. Im sure any programmer worth their money can figure out how CL created Poser. Its not rocket science. Therere programs out there that will decompile a program, you wouldnt copy it line for line, but once you know how poser was written youd know how to write your own. This sort of thing is done in business all the time, although youll never find a company that would admit it. DAZ has never stated officially that theyre going to write a Poser-like program, and may never create such a program. That said, DAZs only business is creating content for Poser, and cant afford to place their future in the hands of unstable company.

"They would then have to answer why they didn't do so for any other character, such as DaCort's. "Ah no they wouldn't.What I SAID is ANY version of Poser SHOULD SUPPORT POSER figures,plain and simple.I don't care who made them.Curious Labs,it seems does not care.They have lost my business.

That depends. Daz already have the morph information for their own files (Mike, Vicky, Steph, Mil Kids), other content providers I'm afraid would probably be pretty much on their own as they have been so far. Jim Burton, DaCort, Traveller, all create their own morphs for their characters. Again, you don't need to strip this information from the cr2 as it's already held in the cr2 in obj format. If you look inside a morphed cr2 you'll see a whole bunch of geom lines. The text information of the morph is just embedded in the text of the cr2. A simple text editor will strip those. Quite honestly Daz would be foolish to create an animation program and then NOT convert their own files over to it, including morphs. Other providers of characters such as those I've mentioned may well be on their own same as they have been with poser. As for decompiling Poser. Reverse engineering of the program is specifically prohibited. If Curious Labs could prove that someone had decompiled their app and written one around that code, they'd go ballistic and you'd end up in court again. The big bonus for this sort of thing is that if you create content for the program you get a pretty good feel for how it works and does stuff. But if you look at the massive number of other animation programs, it's no real mystery. No need to decompile Poser (honestly, who'd want to, you might just get a bunch of poser's bugs thinking they're valid code)... Yes it is done in some businesses. But there are some things worth decompiling, and some things that aren't. :) I agree with you, Daz can't place their future in the hands of an unstable company. CL have had problems over the last two years - the attempt to gain extra revenue from the Warez Amnesty last year and the admittance of cash flow problems this year is evidence of that. In an industry as volatile and unforgiving as software and as dynamically changing as CGI, that's a very dangerous position to be in. As to your last comment. Yes, Daz HAVE stated that they're creating an animation and rendering program that bears some resemblance to Poser. Heck any animation/render package bears some semblance. That information is available at Poserpros (www.poserpros.com) in the general discussion forum, in the 61 page long thread mentioned earlier. They've not gone apeshit advertising like Curious Labs did in their "California Dreaming" thread because the app most likely isn't ready yet and is either still in testing or has yet to reach testing. I doubt they'll make the same mistake as CL and hype the program too early but probably will hype it worse than Christmas when it's close to release. Usually people learn from other's mistakes. Some don't. :) It's the limitation of only providing Poser content that's been limiting Daz's growth. I believe they stated once that they were under contract when they broke away from Zygote NOT to produce or develop content that would conflict with Zygote's production line. They have to my knowledge honoured that and built a strong reputation as Poser providers. Now I guess they can expand their horizons and are doing so by buying in software (Mimic), probably programmers, and developing their own end solution. Steve Cooper once said that Curious Labs developed other software (Avatar Lab, Pro Pack) because they didn't want to be a one trick pony. I should imagine that very much the same thoughts went through the Daz PTB as well. Allowing also that Poser 4 has been with us for several years, it would be foolish indeed to rely on another company for the future of your own - especially one so slow to update and apparently lacking. I think that fairly applies to Curious Labs as well. Previously Zygote (now Daz) provided the content for Poser. Curious Labs have chosen (by using RDNA) not to have all their eggs in one basket. Not a foolish decision at all - if they'd produced a stable enough application to do it. Unfortunately their market share has probably taken a beating with this release. We have yet to see how badly. If they survive, then there will be some competition. Something we've never seen at this level. The pro-level market is filled with competitors but there are none here at the hobby/pro-am level. Should be interesting if nothing else.

I probably shouldn't be getting into this fray, but really, haven't CL's "proprietary formats" only been proprietary since P5's release? I would think that only the 'z' files (crz, etc.) would be of concern. (But that's logic, and logic has nothing to do with law.) There's tons of aps that read and write the normal text files. Of course, there's a difference between a helper ap and a direct competitor, but still. Looking at it from a practical angle, lawsuits take years. I don't think Curious Labs will be around long enough to see it to an end, especially since the lawsuit would probably upset business for both companies. And I don't think Curious Labs would be able to get an injunction against DAZ's program using those formats because there's so many aps out there that also do so. I'm sure DAZ has considered this and many aspects we haven't even thought of. They'll weigh the risks vs. the benefits of supporting the file formats we're used to, and decide from there. Even if DAZ's app doesn't support Poser file directly, if their format is also a text file, then there will be a free conversion program out within a month. I'm not a lawyer though. I'm just offering my take on things.

I agree with you Fyrespirit, the Daz PTB will likely have thought of things that won't even occur to us and are intelligent enough to know what they can and can't do. My main reason for responding like I did was because of the "poser 4 compatible" requests. It can't be, it's not allowed to be, it must be different." Now whether someone writes a conversion utility is another matter. 3DExploration converts between most of the 3dmesh formats, but it costs lots of money - probably because of licensing to use those formats. For Daz to use the Curious files, cr2, pp2, etc etc etc, they need to purchase the rights to do so from Curious Labs - that's done either as a license or in the cost of the SDK (software developers kit) which comes with a license. I don't see Curious being too happy about Daz having that facility. Sorry I just don't see it happening under the current circumstances. As for the file formats, they belonged to curious labs right back from when they first started using them. Poser 1 or 2 or 3... I'm only familiar with them from version 3. Each application uses it's own format - no matter how similar it may be to others the structure and naming must be different. Daz could use a text format, provided the structure was significantly different to a cr2 format and they can call it anything they want. There's a good reason all the other applications around use their own formats. And why there are standards across the board such as 3ds, obj, dxf that pretty much all applications can read. A conversion utility within the month? Quite probably. But, Curious do have the option of killing that, same as they've since been enforcing ownership of the word "Poser" and preventing secondary apps from using it. It's currently a strange situation where one of the players in this field is getting a little more heavy handed than they've been before. Nothing wrong with that, it's just protecting business assets, but it makes things a little sticky for developers. To be honest, if Daz convert their own stock over to the new format for their own system it would be quite a bonus for anyone interested in that option. Though I'm not sure how they'd recoup the costs of doing that. Most people I think would be very unhappy indeed if they had to purchase those files all over again, and it would hurt Daz's venture into applications to ignore that. Could figure developers carry their figures over to the new format and re-release them? Yes, but again, would they charge for the conversion. I see NO poser figures carrying IK chaining and compatibility with any other application out there - except a few from PhilC for Avatar Lab. Who's converted for Cinema, Lightwave, Max etc. Those who wanted that nagged for it and Curious gave them ProPack. If there is sufficient similarity between the structures, Curious might have a case to fight - and I'm positive they'd do it if only for the chance of "kompensayshun" There are pitfalls and problems laced throughout this and I'm pretty damn glad I don't have to navigate through them, but I wanted to at least start explaining from my point of view the problems associated with "Poser" compatibility. For Daz to be protected from legal action their app can't be poser compatible not without a world of hurt for someone. Even secondary developers must be careful. Because while Curious may well be struggling, and there might not be much life left in the company, they'll fight all that more bitterly to stay alive. Can they stop people writing applications to convert their files? Yes, and within the law. If they haven't licensed it, they can kill it at any time. It's all speculation on my part, but I'm nervous of people asking for things that can't be provided and then shouting because they didn't get it. I felt the same way about the demands on the wish lists for Poser 5 - people asked for the earth and look what they got... This is similar - people are asking for something they can't have - Poser compatibility. Without at least a small conversation on this, some people won't understand why they didn't get what they wanted. At least starting the conversation gets it discussed by people who may or may not know what they're talking about (I've been hoping someone who knows will chip in - because I'm playing guessing games here) LOL Honestly. I don't know precisely what can and can't be done, only what I've read around the forums, and what I've gleaned myself from other sources. The two companies involved will know better what they can and can't do. But I can't help being concerned by people asking for something like the ability to swap between the programs using the same file types when they just can't have that. Tools, features, functions fine. What the heck, we've had some fantastical requests in Poser 5 wishlists - some of which were answered, however badly. But compatibility with another program is a whole different ballgame to feature wishes. On that note. I really would like the Daz app to do something Poser has never done. Let me use the much smaller and more compact 3ds format for characters and other models - retaining the 3ds mapping co-ordinates. Simply because there are SO MANY 3ds models that could be animated it'd be real nice not to have to convert to the bloated object format all the time. Imagine porting in a robot, car or spacecraft or whatever in 3ds and being able to set up a boning/skeleton structure and animation with that instead of all the work needed currently to convert it over to something Poser understands. Now THAT would be something I think - certainly more in line with other applications and offering much better compatibility across the board.

Actually, I see a few ways around the file format issue, if it even is one: 1. Competitors could use existing file conversion utilities, leaving the legalities with the utility creator. 2. License with another company that Poser content can currently be converted into (ie, .obj and .3ds). If CL ever supports exporters for these other file formats, then using these file formats would make sense. 3. I am not sure that CL can even claim copyright on a plain text file. I offer the restrictions on copyrightable material direct from the Copyright site: "102(b) In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work." I believe that all of the coordinate information, etc, contained within the CL file formats could possibly be considered any one of the following: "procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept". Since CL's files are no more than a "recipe" for creating the characters, I highly suspect that CLs' copyright protection claim on those files would be invalidated by the restrictions set upon copyright material. 3D space, IMHO, is non-copyrightable, as people could, by pure happenstance, arrive at the same XYZ coordinates, etc. I believe that it was stated in another thread(s) that file format protection has been successfully challenged in a court of law on many occasions. With CLs' diminished financial stability, current development, and other issues with P5, I highly doubt they would have the resources to put up an adequate fight. All a competitor would have to do is "outlast" CLs' resources (much like a hostile takeover in business) to win that battle, if there are even grounds for a confrontation.

Now that's interesting. Thanks Cyberstretch... as I said, I'm just playing guessing games with much of it. As a "recipe" for a procedure it's possible that it could be interpreted through an import filter to utilise the recipe in the program parameters of the new application. That has some interesting possibilities, though I wonder why that wasn't implemented in ProPack? After all, if you suck a poser model into one of the supported apps all the IK and boning is lost and you have to set the whole thing up again (I think) Interesting though. Ta muchly.

I'm stupid, bear with me. Can you not import a posed vicki -for instance--as an obj and reimport her still posed? Still posed and dressed? Isn't that how Vue first worked? If I'm off the wall, just tell me and I won't be offended, I'm dumb as dirt in tech issues. The other question is-- did CL claim absolute rights to its file formats in Poser 4? That's the agreement Daz is working under. [Can they continue to ignore the clims of the P5 eula as long as they don't use P5? What good is it then?] Side issue, if this was going to end up in a long drawn out court case, and I were Daz, I would budget in compensatory payment to CL from the start. And if I were CL I would take it as it would insure the continued existence of Poser. Emily

Putting the question aside the question if DAZ could make a Poser-like program, that I think that is for lawyers to decide, let's get to the next question- SHOULD DAZ make a Poser like program that can use the current Poser figures and Props? I have every faith CL will (eventually) fix the bugs in Poser 5, once it is working properly will we be happy with it, or do we want more? From what I hear there are some problems with render speed that are probably unfixable (maybe in Poser 6!), the poor interface (as Fishnose put it so well, above) will not be changed in a SR, either, But other than that, do you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln? So what I'm trying to say, is there room for another Poser-figure operating program, or is DAZ wasting their time? Any body ever go through all the Poser 5 wish lists and see how much made it? ;-)

Should they? Hrrm, personally I think, that's a resounding Yes. Why? Simple because competition stimulates a market and the poser market has been somewhat limited to one. So yeah, the more the merrier. I'm still waiting for some of the big boys to blink and realise there's actually a market at the home user/pro-am level and get their arses down here. Will they fix it? I'm more concerned with "can they fix it" than will, personally I very much doubt that they have the resources or ability to fix it, but they might just get it to work a bit better. :) I didn't bother going through the wish lists because there were so many of them, mostly repeating themselves and some of it was pretty "out there", some of the more basic wishes didn't make it though. I'm sure somebody will compile a list sooner or later. :)

I have every faith CL will (eventually) fix the bugs in Poser 5. I don't. Why? Because almost every day I run headlong into a bug in Poser 4. I haven't seen any evidence that the future won't echo the past. SHOULD DAZ make a Poser like program that can use the current Poser figures and Props? Absolutely! To echo Questor, true competition in business is always a good thing. It inspires innovation and lowers prices. And beyond that, I'd just like a choice. Not all of us do the same kinds of art and so not all of us have the same needs. It would be great to have more than one program, so we could chose which one will work best for us.

First of all, let me say I like Poser 5. Second of all, I think DAZ should continue with development. Competition can be a good thing for both companies.

A few thoughts... 1) I doubt seriously Cl could enforce any licensing on the Poser file formats. They contain no code and require no licensable algorithms to read and format. 2) DAZ's "poser killer" application is not even vapor at this point. There is no hard information at all and it doesn't look like there will be any in the future. 3) Clearly, DAZ's figures are of high quality, and they may well have helped create the Poser aftermarket - but it no longer NEEDS them... they are good vendors, but if the folded tomorrow someone would eventually take their place. Obviously it would be better not to have to:) 4) Competition is good :) 5) Face room incompatability with existing Poser figures is >NOT A BUG<. All the ranting in the world will not make it so. It is a fundementally different morph database with specific characteristics. 6) There is NO WAY I would think it useful for the community to pony up 120K to make Mike/Vicky face room compatible. Heck, I don't even need the face room that bad :)

Attached Link: Is DAZ creating a 3D character animation and rendering tool?

2) You obviously did not check DAZ's site (ref link) 3) Same holds true for CL or any company for that matter. 6) Especially when DAZ could go to Singular Inversions and probably strike up a deal for around $1450/model vs CL's "negotiable" $30,000/model.

I know that I have bought Poser 5 and looked at Judy and Don, only to find their morphs, etc to be lacking the Millenium family's versatility. However, in terms of the Face Room question, I know I have seen a number of folks around here produce remaps for Vicky to use Posette textures, Stephanie to use Vicky or Mike textures, etc. Is there a rason someone couldn't create a remap of Vicky to use Judy textures? Then you could use the face room to create a texture useable on Vicky. I don't have the details of the remapped conversions, but I know it's been done. Just a thought.

2. You can't possibly call that "hard" information :) 3) Of course :) 6) Then they should do it :)

2. Well, given that it is still in development, AFAIK, with obvious competitors lurking, would you consider giving out "hard" evidence under the circumstances? 6) Perhaps they are. Only DAZ knows.