Is DAZ creating a 3D character animation and rendering tool? In January DAZ started developing it's own 3D character animation and rendering tool. We basically have taken our wish list of things we would like to have had implemented into Poser, and put them into our own application. We expect it to be an amazing application. The early work is great. Our goal is to push our new application into new markets and to grow this community well beyond its current size. Brokered Artists and content creators will benefit from this growth by having more customers to sell to as a result of the additional market that will be created....From Daz3Ds sight.I CAN'T WAIT.Maybe I can use my Poser5 CD as a coaster.

Soon I hope.Poser5 is wearing my LAST NERVE.I am SO PISSED about the Face Room/Mike/Vicky2 crap,among all the other crap.

Jim the concern you aired in a recent thread where certain allogations were aired by another Renderosity member, have me wondering as well. If they are true, then I don't know that CL really has the poser community in their best interests. I hope the allogations are not true, but I fear CL's silence in this matter makes their motives suspect. If it is just greed based then they will absolutly lose my support and judging to the response that the community aired concerning "free stuff" then I think many others would share the same opinion. I hope it is not true and I would like to here from CL regarding this matter. I would hope that others in the community would also like to know the truth here. CL whats up?

I'll still use poser5 even if I decide to buy the Daz version, of course being able to swap stuff between them would be a big bonus. Someone needs to get them sitting round a table or bang their collective heads together.

they probably couldn't agree about who should model the table or how many morphs it should have.

Circle, all it would take is a little pressure from the poser community to have this happen. If they remain seperate, I'm afraid that one of these companies will not survive for very long. It doesn't need to be that way at all. It really doesn't! The poser community loses in this as well and its sad because it really isn't necessary. I'd love to hear both their real concerns because I'll bet with the right attitude and the right arrangement, this could be a win/win situation for everyone involved. Instead of messing around in this type of very shortsighted behavior, they/we should be looking at ways to grow this market beyond belief. The potential here is huge. Too many growth possibilities to even list here! SO DAZ............CL...........Whats the story and can we/I help in any way to sort it out?

The poser community would still carry on either way at least for a while, right now it looks like Daz has the best financial situation of the 2 companies with their new platinum club. Of course if we could get the 2 companies talking again (they probably are talking behind closed doors) Daz brings out their program which is compatible with everything poser, CL makes Poser5 compatible with the new Daz program/content, everything gets sold through the content paradise & Premier Club, everyone ends up a winner. Does that make sense or have I been taking mind altering substances too much recently?

Premier = platinum, I must still be asleep

I agree that the community carries on, not without much friction and growing pains though. I suggest this community deserves much more! We are like children in a divorce here if these allegations are true. What I'm talking about is a needless stalling of the community through all of this. Seperated, these two companies are much weaker. Combined they soar and all of us along with them. They seem to be hung up on a very short sighted issue based in short term greed. I for one would like to hear the real story. I'll bet its an easy fix!

Circle, can you check to see if you can access the marketplace, i just want to know if its a site problem or a Lapis browser problem?

looks like it's playing silly beggars again, MP doesn't exist accoring to my copy of IE6

Wheeeww, at least I know its not explorer. Love the slang. My best freind growing up was fromm Yorkshire. Haven't heard that one in a while "eh"! (Canadian colloquial thrown in for effect). Thanks for checking!

Couldn't CL merge with DAZ? (not my idea)

Would a DAZ/CL merger be a good thing? I've always been of the opinion that competition between companies generates more in the way of innovation. Having to compete against a strong rival forces the companies in question to provide the best they possibly can for their user base. If you merge all the companies that provide similar software you don't get one superprogram. You get Microsoft.

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working together rather than merging is the way to go, having the 2 programs competing against & supporting each other, the resulting oneupmanship would keep us in programs & upgrades for years.

where's Yorkshire? I'm a Londoner & never go further North than Watford ;) Merging like Replicant said is not a good idea unless they kept up the level of customer support they both have now, can you imagine poor Tori & Reba having to deal with it all, I'm sure they'd both end up bald within a week ;)

If it came down to choosing between CL and DAZ, I wonder which companiy people would turn to for their main/only software poser application? Based on image perception, what company would they go with? Interesting question. Daz seems to have the advantage in my opinion for many obvious reasons. One is that they have the best and most established content. It would take much effort on CL's part to match this content and their track record in this regard is less than spectacular. The bug parade that currently marches on in the next virtual room doesn't instill a lot of buyer/user confidence. There's a trust issue to consider as well. A person might start off using both apps but when content can only be utilized in one or the other, decisions will, no doubt, be made. The only exception would be those with much money to burn. If I were CL I'd rethink my position in all of this! I'd rethink it real hard. Its not too late but could be soon!

Circle, the merger is highly unlikly but if for some reason it could occur the larger company would compliment each other nicely and thus they'd generate huge wealth in cooperation with this growing poser community. Reba and Tori could have a team of minions underneath them to handle the influx once customer confidence grew stronger. Then they could focus on growing their target audience and creating spinoff markets. That's what would come out of a focused partnership. WIN/WIN for all! As far as competition. The 3rd party suppliers can help keep things in check!

You'd hope so, but I can't see it happening before/if Daz brings out their program. What would be interesting is if Daz suddenly decided in a few months they weren't going to be bringing out their program, then not long after CL announces Poser6 with a "NEW" vastly improved Renderer, money changes hands & Daz carry on Making Poser content instead of competing with CL. Or EGISys buys Daz & has both companies/programs thus cornering the market again, but keeps them as seperate companies still competing (don't laugh it could happen).

If it came down to choosing between CL and DAZ, I wonder which companiy people would turn to for their main/only software poser application? I'll be honest. I'd go with Daz in a heartbeat. Why? Every time I've had a problem with Daz, they've gone out of their way to make it right. When I've had problems with Curious Labs, I've been on my own. Daz has wonderful people who go the extra mile to help. CL has people who tell their customers "you're on your own." Daz provides great products that work out of the box. Curious Labs... well, I think this one goes without saying. With Daz, I trust them enough to buy their program on first release if it looks like something that will help me. I know from previous experience that if it doesn't work, they'll make it right. Judging from that conglomeration of bugs I fight with every day (P4!), CL doesn't have that track record. And there's the matter of honesty. Curious Labs has lied too much; I don't trust them anymore. For example, they've been working exclusively on Poser for three years (so Avatar Lab just popped out of someone's ass one afternoon and they decided to sell it?). Even if they had the best of intentions when they made their statements, there's just been too many promises that went unfulfilled.

I can't see a merger. Like 1% chance. Ask around (grin). DAZ has GREAT customer support, some darn good content (!), and probably some money in the vault. It might be like a business game of chess: CL has just made a bad move...why would DAZ offer a draw? See that Platinum Club? What if their app (called "Figure-Mania") could use all their current content? And what if the purchase of "FM" came with another membership that gave a reduced price for "FM" (proprietary) content? PS: If started in Jan, then I would be real surprised if beta-testing would begin much sooner than 06/2003. (If it's as big as what we are imagining.

Aren't you all sick of having (insert your personal favorite here)...ideas, opinions, buggy software, limited options, unkept promises, orchestrated posts....and on and on shoved down your throat? Why would anyone want DAZ and EGISys/CL to merge? I don't even like considering it on an intellectual basis...scares me s

Well I'm quite happy with Poser 4, and have no intention of upgrading to Poser 5 yet. I may just wait and see what DAZ come up with...they have given me excellent customer service in the past. I would be quiet happy to ditch CL, as they do seem to be content in supplying their customers new products unfit for consumption...twice in a row now. Yes, they have been fast in the patch releases, but it does seem a very unprofessional way to run a business. I'm lucky in that I can make money freelancing, something I would not be able to do if I relied on CL and their new software releases. I'm sure if Maxon, Adobe and even low budget shareware producers can produce stable software from the off then so can CL. Until they can sort out how to produce stable software, then they can never expect to be taken seriously! Lapis; of course CL have not got the Poser community in their best interests...they are a money making business. Like any other business, profit is the bottom line. Yes they need users that are happy with their product if they are going to make money, but don't fool yourself. A community does not benefit them, it only benefits those involved in the (respectful) sale of 3rd party extras and the members themselves. Cheers

 

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Daz and CL both have a lot of time and money invested, their descisions are their own to make. If Daz comes out with a poser type software, good for them!!! competition between companies, keeps those companies on their toes. I wish daz and cl good luck in their ventures and I think you all will find, it's all going to be to your advantage. 2 thumbs up to Dan Farr and Steve cooper, making and keeping some of you happy(note I said SOME) seems to be a virtually impossible task.

I'll probably go ahead & buy the Daz program if it supports current content, if it doesn't or can't then I may have to think long & hard about it.

C1rcle, I'll admit I'm the same way. I'm taking it for granted that it will support current (at least, P4) content.

I hope both companies continue to trade for years to come, I might have to start watching the TV if I didn't have Poser/CL/Daz & all the goodies that go with them

What will people think if DAZ's program comes out with as many bugs as Poser 5? Just curious.

I'm expecting it to have bugs, wouldn't be normal if it didn't have bugs ;)

What allegations? Can you point me to the original post? jon

 
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I agree, it will. People have turned on CL and are now expecting DAZ to come in a save the day, so to speak. Will they turn on DAZ as well if DAZ's program has bugs?

cast your mind back to just a few months ago when Daz announced the changes to their EULA, sent some people into a rabid frenzy, if either company makes even the slightest mistake it's a cue for certain people to start tearing chunks of flesh off them.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I remember that well.

So, Artist3D has been screaming, whining, and bitching all over the boards everyday about P5 not working with Mike and Vicki... and now comes across as a DAZ employee? I hope not! Most of their people have better manners and morals than that! Those of you who hope to see a DAZ application to replace Poser need to remember one thing. DAZ makes and sells content, and they do a darned good job of it. That is a very different procedure from developing an application of any sort, much less one of this scope. I am a developer with 15 years experience and I would not choose DAZ over CL on the strength of their fantastic customer service... not when we are talking about a software product. Sheesh! Sorry, folks, even if they reverse engineer it, they still have never developed an application from scratch, even if they buy most of the technology, they still have never assembled and integrated a working application. They will have to build it themselves, by a different route, even if they see what others have done. We aren't talking about friendly phone service, we are talking about imaginative approaches to the technology. Common sense has to bubble to the surface sometime. Some of you might remember Poser 1. Carolly

...making and keeping some of you happy(note I said SOME) seems to be a virtually impossible task.<<< Not impossible. Just give me the product as advertised, promised and promoted and have it work in a consistent and reliable manner. Live up to the promises made and respect the trust given. Do that and I will be one very happy camper. Otherwise, yes, we will battle on several fronts. Take care and be well. casamerica

What will people think if DAZ's program comes out with as many bugs as Poser 5? Just curious.<<< I am beginning to believe that they could not do that even if they tried. Let's face it, and since we are all adults here I will use advanced, precise medical terminology, Poser 5 is/was a cluster----. Having said that, CL still deserves the chance and our patience to redeem themselves. But that chance and our patience comes with a time limit and the clock is ticking. Take care and be well. casamerica

"Artist3D has been screaming, whining, and bitching all over the boards everyday about P5 not working with Mike and Vicki... and now comes across as a DAZ employee? I hope not! Most of their people have better manners and morals than that!" Personally I think he has a right to air his opinions just as I remember a certain someone had the right to leverage their opinion in this forum about CL honouring an upgrade to P5 from magazine issued software. I remember much ranting and raving in that string about CL. Do you remember that one? It seemed to work out some how for the best. Sometimes it helps to vent your frustration in these forums. Clearly the software isn't working for everyone. I for one understand his frustration all too well! I think Jim is just optimistic that DAZ will answer his software prayers and thats not a bad thing!

Casamerica I agree with you. Look through the posts and you will see this sentiment echoed throughout by many...not a few...and certainly not just Jim. Somehow though, some will still defend at all cost, even during the glorious bug parade.

If DAZ3D is smart they will make sure that this new program can export character animations/w textures to OTHER Programs that have alreadyfigured how to impement open GL,hardware acceration REAL Volumetrics .network rendering etc. ( Vue C4DXL lightwave3D)

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We have apparently ruffled someone's feathers. The "Powers That Be" have deemed this thread "Off-Topic." They apparently wish it dead. Puzzling. I have seen far more "off-topic" subjects remain in the Poser Forum. I guess we know at least one entity that we should not anger, irritate, question or pressure. My patience and respect for two particular entities has just fallen a notch or two. And the clock keeps ticking... Take care and be well. casamerica

hauksdottir said: "I am a developer with 15 years experience and I would not choose DAZ over CL on the strength of their fantastic customer service... not when we are talking about a software product. Sheesh!" Maybe the fact that they do have a fantastic customer service history, will ensure that they do not release the product until it is ready. I don't look for 100% reliability in a product (I'm realistic), but good customer service is a must when I purchase anything. I'm sure that DAZ know what they are doing, and hired programmers for the job...somehow I can't imagine a group of "one-time DAZ modellers" suddenly learning C++ programming language LOL! I have also been a customer of software products for many years, so I also know what I want ;o) Cheers

 

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It's at least potentially an anti-CL thread, Caz, and CuriousLabs is a Renderosity partner company now. So.... Naturally a thread about a company making Poser content developing a competeing app is "off-topic" for Poser Forum. ;] At least here.

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• Monkeysmell

From some of the discussions in earlier posts I gather that DAZ made the decision to implement their own application at the start of the year or possibly earlier, based on a perception (probably well informed) that the future of Poser in CL's hands was not guaranteed. If CL were to collapse, Poser (already orphaned twice in its development history) may never re-emerge. DAZ's entire business is currently based on the well being of Poser, so 'hedging their bets' in the face of this possibility was a sound, and probably necessary, business decision. As it emerged, the release of Poser 5 probably re-invigorated rather than dampened DAZ's commitment to developing its own solution. They, like myself and others, see the financial future for CL in probably a worst state than it has ever been. On the initial P5 announcement, CL made it clear that they were intending to aim at mid-range of the market. While the initial pricing issue caused a lot of concern for hobbiests (myself included), the speed and scale of the reversal was in business terms, even more of a disaster. Effectively, in a stroke, they had dumped their long standing business plan, as had been apparent for some time in the P4/ProPack/P5(RRP) pricing tiers. What effect this had on their relationship with their investors and to what degree this lead to their subsequent pre-release financial problems can only be guessed. In order to keep investor confidence (hence money) they have to be able to create and stick to a workable business plan. While it may seem admirable that CL responded so quickly in the face of the community's initial reaction to the (RRP) pricing, this also indicates that they may have badly misjudged the market in the first instance. If DAZ understood this weakness in CL's business strategy it would also help to explain why they felt it would be worth developing their own solution. Shortly after the release of P5, and before I became aware of the development of the DAZ program, I began to examine the feasibility of open source application, specifically with the features and functionality that I would have liked to have seen in Poser 5, rather than what we got. My motivation for this project ('FreePose' for want of a better name - and I am open to suggestions) are (like DAZ) to ensure that even if CL and Poser go down the tubes the market will survive. From what I have read, DAZ may be intending a pre-Christmas release of their application, wheras FreePose beta code probably won't be available until early 2003, and even then only core source code that will give developers and contributors something to work with. However a project manifesto and a design and feasibility specification should be available imminently. The key features of the core code are strong and efficient resource management, a well defined plugin interface architecture, the ability to 'host' a wide variety of object types (eg. geometric objects and figures, procedurals etc. in fact just about everything I can think of including 'generic' data defined by third party plugins) and, of course, portability. Everything else (including renderers, file importers and exporters and user interface) will be supported through the plugin interface. The ability for external plugins and applications to access the entire data and functionality of the program will ensure almost limitless extendibility. As a baseline test for this functionality, the program will be required to host 10000 seperately posed 'millenium'-type figures in a scene with numerous, but as yet unspecified, basic model types and texture variations with a minimal memory footprint (100 MB or less seems feasible). There are no actual performance requirements associated with this baseline test, just that the data structures can handle populations of this scale and that the code can access any parameter without falling over. The program will probably be developed under the Mozilla Public License (MPL) or the MPL/GPL/LGPL tri-license as this seems to offer the maximum level of unrestricted use of code for both proprietry and open source development. Under this license it should (and this is my intention) be possible for anyone (including CL and DAZ themselves) to incorporate the FreePose code into their own applications. I'm not intending this in anyway to directly threaten the future of Poser or CL. For myself, and probably DAZ too, the cheapest and least risk free option will still remain with the continued financial health and development of Poser itself by CL. It's just that it seems unwise at the moment to put all my eggs in the Poser basket. I have become aware that this is not the only Open Source project to be looking at this area. Somebody, in an earlier, pre-P5, post in this forum pointed out that Poser had no effective competition in the market. Within a month or so of this observation, the market began to look very crowded indeed. Sadly I feel that 'Poser' has outgrown its original creators. Bill

I've only asked to hear from CL regarding the facts of the matter and if silencing this thread turns out to be their response,(I hope not)then I have my answer.

Lapis I don't believe that CL themselves have any control over the Renderosity forums. There may be some justification for moving the thread away from the Poser forum. On the other hand, some of the moderators have sometimes shown themselves to be a bit over-zealous in their support for what they perceive are CL's best interests. Also bear in mind some rumours that have been floating regarding the possibility of R'osity buying Poser or CL. Bill

"So, Artist3D has been screaming, whining, and bitching all over the boards everyday about P5 not working with Mike and Vicki... and now comes across as a DAZ employee? I hope not! Most of their people have better manners and morals than that!" Heh, apparently you didn't read The Thread That Never Ends over at PoserPros, where Daz bigwigs made a fuss over the restrictions in the P5 EULA, supposedly due to their concern over the rights of content creators, only to admit later that they were only interested in its effect on the upcoming program (which is quite obviously what it was aimed at). Pfft, some manners. They've been doing everything they can to undermine Poser 5. Of course, considering what a piece of shit it's turned out to be, that doesn't take much...(who else has to patch their patches?!?) As far as getting CL and Daz to play nice, dream on. Once they needed each other, but now they are merely competitors. You might as well expect McDonald's and Burger King to join up. Ain't gonna happen, kids. This is just the beginning of what will most likely prove to be a particularly nasty corporate war. And frankly, I don't know who the hell to root for...

Something is very fishy here. Rather unbelievable!

I would think that DAZ would hire the programmers needed to create the software, or buy out a company that may already be doing so - they aren't stupid - although at times they have stuck their foot in their mouth. Consider the EULA hoopla they stirred up - and then look at how quickly they worked to resolve the issues their customers had, it may have seemed like forever to those of us waiting, but they did straighten it out - I don't see CL doing that in regards to their EULA, I don't see them even attempting to consider their customers. No matter how often CL will say "we don't mean that" "we would never do that" the fact remains that their EULA gives them the right to do certain things and make claims that effect not only vendors but those who use the software for certain purposes. Crime scenes could be considered a violation and if you use it for that (or to do any scene showing what might be considered illegal) don't take their "word" that it's ok - get it in writing because that is the only thing that matters (want to lay odds on them granting written permission?) CL and DAZ merging? why would a company who is doing well financially attach itself to one that admits they put out a faulty program because of money issues? One company has a history of saying "tough luck" and the other is known to listen to their customers. I know which one I'd expect to quickly take care of any potential software bugs and I know which one I'd trust to not take my money when they know the software has serious problems...

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"Heh, apparently you didn't read The Thread That Never Ends over at PoserPros, where Daz bigwigs made a fuss over the restrictions in the P5 EULA, supposedly due to their concern over the rights of content creators, only to admit later that they were only interested in its effect on the upcoming program (which is quite obviously what it was aimed at)." Not exactly true, they said they have issues with the EULA due to their lawyer's advice, they also announced their new program so that no one would think they were hiding something. I have a problem with the EULA as well due to the effect on content creators and others, and I'm not creating a program. Nor am I jut following others, I understand "legalese" perfectly well and I see the potential damage that EULA can cause if CL ever decided to follow through. Frankly if DAZ had spoken up in regards to their issues with the P5 EULa and hadn't said anything about their own prog. I would have been more leary. Nor would they have refused to install P5 and lose potential revenue if they were simply waiting for their own program to be finished. They currently don't support P5 products because they don't have it installed and won't work around the P5 EULA - that can cause tham more hassle than installing a program while waiting for their own. The only reason to take the potential risk is if installing it is a higher risk.

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"...they also announced their new program so that no one would think they were hiding something." Yes, they did, but only after they stirred up a lot of trouble while hiding it. It wasn't until, what, page 18 I think, that they finally came clean. It was highly unethical of them to say ANYTHING about the P5 EULA issue before they made it clear that they were creating a competing app. That information should have been in their very first post and their true motivation made clear from the beginning. Until then, they WERE hiding something, something damned relevent to the topic. That's not to imply that the P5 EULA doesn't have ominous potential that could affect us all. But Daz should have told us the full story from the beginning, and their failure to do so casts them in a very bad light IMO.

The only reason I can see they didn't install Poser5 was because the P5 EULA basically stops them from using any of their present content with their own program. If they don't install the program & agree to be bound by the EULA they can't be stopped from using those file formats no matter what the new EULA says.

.

Of course we could be looking at this all wrong, the CL P5 EULA is more restrictive than anything before thats true, but what if Daz & CL are working on the Daz program together? both programs could potentially use all the available content & swapping between them would be fairly easy, who says they both have to do the same things, the CL program is for character animation, what if the Daz program is for scenery?. You set up the figures in Poser save as a pz3 then import that into the scenery you've set up in Daz, or even the other way round.

"It was highly unethical of them to say ANYTHING about the P5 EULA issue before they made it clear that they were creating a competing app." Actually I personally don't think it was - the CL EULA stands (and falls) on it's own - regardless of who has a problem with it. DAZ didn't start the thread about the EULA and were only clarifying their own opinion of it in response. The creation of their own software doesn't change the CL EULA or it's effects on them or others. The creation of any software has no bearing on CL's EULA or a software companies opinion of it. DAZ's opinion in regards to P5's EULA is in regards to how it affects their current products and the potential for brokering/supporting P5 content. While it may affect their new software to a degree I personally think that effect was much smaller than the brokering they do currently. I'm sure that while working on their software they are also working feverishly on the content for it - heck since they can't use Poser file formats they may have already worked out a conversion program that will convert their products. Or perhaps Vicky 3.0 will be for the new program and they will still provide content for P4.

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Curious Labs and DAZ3D: lets call them Curious and Curiouser. :P Maybe I should leave this whole Poser debacle behind me and move on. I'm ready to model all my stuff myself in a real 3d application.

Sorry, I disagree LSM. I think that starting off acting as if they were still just mere content providers when they were actually now going into direct competition with CL was misleading and unethical. My opinion, I guess, but I'll never take anything they say at face value again. And I have it on good authority that much of the new language was indeed aimed directly at Daz, although I agree that it opens ominous possiblities far beyond that. But frankly, I don't foresee any major changes coming. CL knows that Daz is going head to head with them, and I highly doubt that CL is going to soften the language in any way that would make it easier for Daz. I'm not saying that it's a wise decision, or that I support it, merely that that is how it is, despite all the bitching in the community. The fact is, P5 keeps right on selling just the same. Money talks, bullshit walks, and so long as the cash keeps flowing, don't CL to take all of the protest over the EULA with anything more than a grain of salt, especially with direct competition breathing down their necks. And although this is purely a guess, I'm betting that Vicki 3.0 (and perhaps Mike 3.0, as well?) will indeed be offered in Daz's new app as a default figure, just to sweeten the pot a bit. I could be wrong, of course, but it would be a smart move on Daz's part. Depending, of course, on how far away the app's release is. If they follow Curious Labs' M.O., they may be able to include Vicki 6.0... (and it still won't work);)

x2000 Read my earlier post and then search the Poser forum for the earlier thread regarding DAZ's position. DAZ may well being going head-to-head with CL now, but there's no reason to doubt their assertion that the decision to launch their own app was based on anything but a genuine concern that the future of Poser itself was in jeapordy, and with no alternatives on the market at the time that would have spelt the end for DAZ too. In this respect DAZ may well have felt that they had no other choice but to follow this route. DAZ don't just have a market dependance on the creation of 3D models, but, in fact, are directly dependent on CL's file formats. In that respect its not just a matter of whether they can repackage their product line for another application, but also whether they can resupply all the customers who have bought Poser formatted products, or alternately risk losing the market by ignoring that need, as the Poser formats die with the application. The obvious solution, for DAZ, would be an application that can readily utilise their existing product line of Poser format files. This, in turn, leads to the possibility of DAZ adding to the format (think MS Java extensions here) for any features that their own application may be able to utilise, then marketing 'DAZ-extended' products that are incompatible with CL's Poser. To my mind, preventing this was probably the intention behind CL's EULA's claim to file format ownership. Of course, legalise is a difficult weapon to wield, and to some extent it has also damaged CL as well, but, with the fact that CL were apparently aware of the possibility of the DAZ program, and could fairly easily guess the necessity for broad Poser compatibility, they too may have felt that they had little other choice than to throw some pretty heavy protection behind their product. Bill

Hi, I agree with what Hauksdottir said, I am in software engineering too, and I have been following the debates on and off about P5 since it came out. I think that with the amount of new functionality that is in P5, there's bound to be a shitload of issues. Where I personally think CL went wrong, is that they had a closed instead of open beta-program. We've had immense benefits from public betas, and it's saved our customers a lot of hassle and money. You can also draw a parallel to Microsoft's new system releases, huge issues are found within the first two, three months it's public, and then the stuff actually starts working. And this despite the fact they have a pretty big public beta program. I'm not saying it's optimal, but I am saying it's customary for new software with lots of new stuff to not "settle down" for months when it first hits the market. As for Daz creating their own app, I do wish them luck. I think that Poser still has such a broad user base which doesnt use 'rosity or Poser Pros or any other place (i.e the movie industry uses Poser for shot-blocking and pre-visualisation that I still think they have a chance. As for DAZ's fantastic customer service... you must have been luckier than I. I do have to admit I have been somewhat taken aback by the amount of venom P5 has created in some of the forums... I honestly think CL are doing the best they can but with what looks like a serious amount of issues which probably will take time to track (find WHAT it is and fix it), and a customer support system besieged by users, there's only so much they can do for now. My two cents ~S intrigued by the conspiracy theories...

MadYuri wrote: Maybe I should leave this whole Poser debacle behind me and move on. I'm ready to model all my stuff myself in a real 3d application two thumbs up to that!!! you are not the only one, at this time. in fact, i am looking for another app where i can "pose" my people....i am sick to the death of me of both cl..and, daz...and their restrictions they would seek to impose on what i make with my heart. the hell with this crap. if daz comes up with a sweet program....cool, i will use it, if THE EULA DOES NOT DEMAND MY FIRSTBORN, or SOMESUCH. as much as p5 looks more and more like a potentially cool "toy"...i most likely won't buy it now. i don't want poser 4 with a patched up hangover, thank you very much. but...but...but...if a 3rd party....from japan, or wherever, comes up with a good working poser alternative program...i am on that, and, if it works will tout its praises to the sky. such is the world of competition.

"...there's no reason to doubt their assertion that the decision to launch their own app was based on anything but a genuine concern that the future of Poser itself was in jeapordy..." Ah, but William, I doubt EVERYTHING. That's just part of my charm.;) For whatever it's worth, though, I wasn't really questioning what Daz said, merely complaining that they should have said it up front. What can I tell you, I'm just real big on honesty, and until they gave us the full scoop, they weren't being honest. That's simply an undeniable matter of fact. But yes, anyone who's been around these parts as long as I have probably knows CL has had serious financial troubles all along, and that the "Amnesty" sale a ways back was nothing but a desperate scramble to scrape up as much as cash as possible as quickly as possible. It's not surprising that Daz might feel... insecure. I'm certainly not knocking them for creating their own app, either. Who can blame them for wanting to control their own destiny rather that live at the mercy of CL's whims? Hell, I was bashing them a while back for being a one-trick pony offering nothing but variation upon variation of Vicki and Mike, so I'm glad to see that they realized how limited they've been and have decided to strive for bigger and better things. But like CL, Daz has seriously screwed up a lot lately, too. The Tailor controversy, the PoserPros debacle... neither side has a very good batting average so far. Let's hope that Daz has learned from their and CL's mistakes and hits a homer this time, because with so much anger and frustration filling the community already, I don't think we can take another strike-out...

Well, personally I don't mind competition in anything that is a big hype, popularity, signifigance, priority, essentiality in life. Poser as 3D software has become an icon of sustenance for a lot of artists, creators and forums; poser literally holds much of the sustenance of these very forums together; it's what started it and keeps everybody all funky and selling and sharing and dazzling one another in so many ways, from naked Vickies by temples to pink ponies to Dorkerina's to pockmarked realistic textures, poser and Daz are in so many ways a lifethread to so many online people. Just like it would not be feasable or make sense to just have a monopoly of one forum, don't make sense anymore to just have one poser....lest you may get stuff like banks, gas stations, post office, a political majority voted in Governmnent, a King and Queen with too many followers; there may be a lack of concern since you already have the market cornered; soon prices go up, quality goes down, line up's and waiting can happen, customer service can suck; it would be an inevitable sure thing of over-confidence. Competition keeps those that have a fitality of some sort on their toes and striving to nourish quality, support, betterment for themselves as a representation to their customers and thrives an utmost concern and caring within them to have for their clientel; if they don't, the others will. Imagine having only one ISP...one car maker...one kind of computer...one Microsoft...one...oh, oh...maybe your get the point now...

"So, Artist3D has been screaming, whining, and bitching all over the boards everyday about P5 not working with Mike and Vicki... and now comes across as a DAZ employee? I hope not! Most of their people have better manners and morals than that!"..... Hauksdottir,who the hell are you to TRY(an FAIL Miserably)to disrespect me?In NONE of my posts did I PERSONALLY attack ANY individual.SO my advice to you,is not to.We are NOT here to ATTACK each other PERSONALLY and fight,so why are you doing that?I am not.I am here to state FACTS posted HERE and PUBLICLY.I NEVER said I was an employee of Daz.All I did was post PUBLIC information from Dazs' sight.So please grow up and use these forums for what they are intended for,not to attack people as individuals.

Artist3D, I believe what Hauksdottir was trying to get across was that you did not make it at all clear that what you wrote in your original post was from the horse's mouth (the horse being DAZ of course [, of course...]). Adding quote marks or otherwise distinguishing your comments and the source of the information you provide from the actual information would go a long way towards making it clear who said what and what your role in the situation is. Regarding DAZ's customer service, I like a lot of DAZ's stuff, but I have to say their customer service does leave something to be desired. I sent them two emails last week, one on Tuesday and one on Thursday, and have not heard back about either of them. They were not technical support, they were sales queries. It should not take this long, even only working during the week.

Artist3D, Tubedogg is correct. Without quotation marks to indicate that the words are quoted (duh!), the reader should assume that the words belong to the member typing them. x2000, I contributed to the thread that never ends in its earler days... and know some of what is behind the scenes. I am a lot more patient about EULAs and such than most Forumites because I've had to deal with too many lawyers over the years (copyright battles, of course). Lawyers take their own time. I will say only this: I do not like the way certain things were made public in various forums and threads, or the order in which shoes were dropped. Businesses are supposed to play cards close to their vest, to protect their interests, to maneuver for market position. Fairness doesn't have to enter the equation, but it ought to. These negotiations should NEVER have been strewn before a tight community of consumers in such a way that it tears them apart, divides them, uses their buying power as leverage and creates wounds which may very well end up dispersing and destroying the economic center which had supported both companies. If you think I'm over-imagining? I've seen it before, in the music business. In 1985-86 a publisher over-reached, and almost killed a profitable subgenre. It has yet to recover, let alone grow. That community will never knit back together. Something to think about. As a businesswoman, I try to keep a neutral stance. As a rational woman, I plead for reason, patience, tolerance. But there are days when I think that the cat should be typing the messages and I should be off doing something useful like art. :sigh: Carolly

As we continue this totally off-topic, absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Poser thread (As determined by the Powers That Be) The Copyright Act clearly states: In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work. And, in Apple Computer, Inc. v. Microsoft Corp. (1992), the courts clearly ruled that file structures and formats were functional elements NOT protected by copyriight. A similar ruling was upheld in Baystate Technologies, Inc. v. Bentley Systems, Inc. (1996). Pay particular attention to the courts rulings in regard to and/or in citing functional elements, the Merger Doctrine, Method of Operation, Intermediate Copying and the Sces faire doctrine. PKWare has the copyright to its program PKZip. However, it does not and cannot claim copyright ownership and/or protection of the ZIP file format. That is why you have a gazillion programs out there offering archiving and compression programs using the ZIP file format. How many programs use the .DBF file format or structure? .DAT? .INI? .DLL? .TXT? .DOC? .WAV? .MID? .MP3? .MPEG? And dozens of other formats I cannot think of off the top of my head? This has been discussed in earlier threads. My personal advice to DAZ if they really want to create a program with full compatibility with existing Poser 4 OR 5 meshes and scenes is to rally their legal troops, file for a declaratory judgment against Curious Labs and then, after they have won their request, file a motion asking the court to declare the Curious Labs Poser 5 EULA unenforceable under the already set precedence of copyright misuse. As has been stated in previous threads, if the court finds that a PART of an EULA is legally unenforceable the court MAY declare the ENTIRE EULA unenforceable AND refuse to allow the copyright claimant the right to protect their work under copyright law until the unenforceable portions of their EULA are purged. Not only may the court do so it has done so. If I were CL, Id be getting right on it. I would also get myself another set of attorneys since, in my humble opinion, their Poser 5 EULA indicates that their current crop have their heads right up their legal asses. If Curious Labs thinks they have potentially fatal problems now with the Poser 5 release fiasco, and they do just in case they are missing the obvious, it is nothing compared to what they would face with complete nullification of their current EULA by the courts. I would advise them to research court cases relating to copyright MISUSE. Specifically - Practice Management Information Corp. v. American Medical Assn. (1997), DSC Communications Corp. v. DGI Technologies, Inc. (1996) and Lasercomb America, Inc. v. Reynolds (1990). Also, CL, their minions and/or supporters could spend their time much more productively other than alienating, bullshitting and trying to intimidate and/or marginalize their customers, potential customers, third-party supporters, suppliers and devil dogs watching the clock. A more asinine, self-destructive mode of behavior I have not seen in the business world recently and youll just piss-off the devil dog. Take care and be well. casamerica, A Pissed-Off Devil Dog Watching the Clock ;-)

"Adding quote marks or otherwise distinguishing your comments and the source of the information you provide from the actual information would go a long way towards making it clear who said what and what your role in the situation is." Yep. I hereby withdraw and delete my first question, since it was indeed a misinterpretation of your post due to the lack of quotation marks. Those little punctuation marks are pretty important, people...;)

"Sorry, I disagree LSM" that's ok x2000 I forgive ya ;-D Seriously though it is just my personal opinion. As for the "PoserPros debacle" I personally don't see that as a "screw-up" on DAZ's part. Probaby the best thing for everyone involved. When DAZ puts out it's new program it won't be called "Poser" and PP was created for Poser users. Now DAZ can do what they want without having to discuss it and PP can do exactly what they want and see their own ideals reached without interference. I also agree with casamerica in regards to the legality of the EULA, unfortunately often times a court will rule only the portion is unenforceable. DAZ may be able to deal with this type of court case, but most small stores and sites can not afford to do so, probably what CL is counting on. Then again once anyone files a lawsuit in regards to the EULA it can be opened up to a class action suit that any poser user can join for no extra cost if the portions of the EULA actually affect them. It doesn't matter to CL I'm sure, but I won't be buying anytime soon, and I was ready to buy 2 copies of the program an update and a full version - I won't risk the EULA when I can't afford to fight them if they press the point. Of course my lack of purchase doesn't affect their income any but I'm sure there are a large number of those who aren't purchasing - and a large number who are.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

x2000, what do you mean by "PoserPros debacle"? i though daz "buyed" poserpros. since i don't go there very often - not enough time for both rosity and poserpros - i don't know much about it.

Who says either company will stop trading, it's possible both companies could carry on side by side for years with both programs doing what they do best & sharing the content. Both companies working away on the next version of their programs to hopefully up the stakes on the other company, each new version of either program being slightly better than the last & adding new features to be beaten by the other program.

aleks - the announcement was a bit premature - DAZ did not buy PP, but they did buy Poser Arcana and are expanding nicely.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Aleks, it didn't happen. "Creative Differences" and all that (although we all know there's always more to it than that...). And LSM, I agree that it was for the best. Anyone paying attention at the time knows I was against it in the first place. But it DID make Daz look rather silly portraying it as a done deal, then just going, "Um, uh, we've changed our minds, so, uh, just never mind, ok?" And since THAT was a false alarm, you have to wonder if the new app will pan out. If nothing else, the PoserPros incident proved conclusively that Daz doesn't always think things through and sometimes gets themselves into things they're not equipped to deal with.

Oops, sorry, LSM, x-post.:)

Actually DAZ didn't portray it as a done deal at all, they aren't the one's who posted an announcement about it although they did respond when it was announced and frankly since they had no reason to believe it would at the time it wouldn't go through not responding would have been rude. I do remember your feelings on the matter.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

thanks, lady! :)

aleks > i though daz "buyed" poserpros. Naw, they un-"buyed" each other. ;)

"Creative Differences" means everything except that. next step is pulling guns on each other. ;)

"I do remember your feelings on the matter." Heh, yeah, I thought you would...;) But you know, I caught a hell of a lot of flack for saying it was a bad idea (mostly behind these scenes at that). The simple fact is, too many people in this community are hideously childish and feel some bizarre devotion to these companies, like these business people trying to get their money are some sort of dear old family friends or something. You know, "Oh, I'll buy anything Daz puts out, they just can't do anything wrong" and "Curious Labs are incredible people and if you complain about P5, you're scum", etc. I'm sure you've all read those sorts of comments, and some of you may have even posted them. I'm not talking about "Daz has great customer service" or stuff like that, of course, but the hardcore fanatics that simply deny their company of choice has any flaws or could possible do anything wrong. That's the real tragedy here, because as these two companies come into opposition, so do their respective devotees. We've already seen the beginnings of it. I fear that when the Daz app actually sees the light of day, you're going to see fighting like never before, far beyond any past site wars may have created. If you thought the Mac/PC debate was tiresome...;) Not that that's Daz's fault, of course. Or even CL's, for that matter. It's just a sad, simple truth that when former business partners split up and go head to head, that their devotees feel the need to do the same.

Unfortunately fanboys (and girls) exist in all walks of net-life, and sometimes even outside it. The Nvidiot rows are an example, as are the "Quake/Half Life" crowds, or for that matter soccer supporters - now THAT's a bunch of neanderthals without hope. It's just a teeny bit more intense here because of the smaller audience. At least the various fanboys (and girls) here haven't taken to stabbing and shooting each other like soccer supporters. "Yet" anyway. What the hey, it's amusing to watch, entertaining mostly and watching some of the creative ways people come up with to defend their current heroes is quite enlightening. There's nothing wrong with being a supporter, apologist or dedicated rabid fan - except when it makes you blind. I fear that when the Daz app actually sees the light of day, you're going to see fighting like never before, Maybe, maybe not. It depends very much on whether supporters of the Daz app feel they have the rights to invade the Poser forum and do "their thing" in there, or whether the various sites create a new forum for devotees of that new app to play in. If they do that then there shouldn't be any fighting - just sniping - like with the Max and Maya forums, Vue and Bryce, etc etc. Note I didn't mention Lightwave here because those people are almost as deranged as Linux fanboys. :) (digs deep hole, climbs in and pulls the roof in after)

"buyed"? "BUYED"? what's bloody that? ;P ::: going back to write "bought" 1000 times :::

smiles Allow me to clarify a couple of things. The announcement that Daz intended to buy PoserPros was not actually premature and it was a joint decision between us and Daz to make the announcement at that time. At the time the announcement was made, a signed letter of intent was in place, and someone had accidentally leaked the "news" into the broader community and it was about to be made public by another party. So Daz and we chose to announce it ourselves rather than have someone else announce it as an unsubstantiated rumour and blow it out of proportion. It was announced as an intent. Not as a done deal. Later, it is true, Russell and I chose to not go down that path. We discovered our vision was different than that of Daz in site management and end goals. This was a good thing for both Daz and us, since a unified vision is necessary to any successful undertaking. Yet, a part of me regrets that the sale did not take place and always will since Daz has many wonderful things they can contribute to any community. However, being true to our vision mattered in the end, so we walked away from the table. Russell and I bear no hard feelings toward Daz, nor as far as I know, them toward us. We are still "good friends". Perhaps, if that sale had gone through, that might not be the case, and I believe it was providential it did not take place if nothing else, to preserve a strong friendship and alliance of many years.

snicker

....ooh....

I hate to nitpick, Mehndi, but... PoserPros Forum Thread Headline: "Announcing DAZ3D Acquisition and Merger of PoserPros.com!" That sounded pretty final to me. And to Aleks, too, apparently, among others. And I mean, you had already gone ahead and made Daz folks mods and all, so it certainly seemed pretty done to most of us. In business, perception is everything, and MY perception is that Daz had PoserPros in the palm of their hand and somehow screwed the whole thing up. Or maybe they just decided that owning forums where free, open discussions take place, including ones bashing Daz, was more than they could handle. The fact that they've since purchased Poser Arcana, a somewhat obscure site with no forums so far as I know, makes the whole situation even more questionable. Whatever the case, they set a precedent at that time of announcing big things that don't actually happen, and so I tend not to put full stock in what they say until I see it with my own eyes.

Well lookee here, we gots ourselfs the same thread up above, started by the same person saying the same thing in the same forum, causing the same fuss and getting the same reaction from the PTB (i.e.: booted to OT). The shape of things to come?

Attached Link: OT request from Kupa

"The shape of things to come?" Nope, the shape of things that be... Many adverse Poser-related discussions end up here and many OT posts (even those labelled with OT in the subject line) remain in place in the Poser fora. Like the post by kupa requesting people to send stamps to his kid (ref the link). I guess that was allowable since kupa works for CL; although he was not asking for Poser stamp models or anything related to Poser.

"Many adverse Poser-related discussions end up here and many OT posts (even those labelled with OT in the subject line) remain in place in the Poser fora." Noticed that, did ya?;) Ah, but this is just the beginning. You ain't seen nothin' yet!8o

where else would one of the poser creators post something like that & get an answer? I suppose he could have sent an email to Daz or posted it in the LW forum. Love to see the reaction it would get in there ;)

You ain't seen nothin' yet! Never a truer word written.

and wasn't legume who resigned being mod at pp because of some obscure reason daz being politically incorrect?

It wouldn't surprise me if anything that mentions Daz gets either deleted or moved to the OT forum in the near future

Legume leaving there was probably to do with the pink pony, Daz wanted it turned to pink glue

pink glue... ROTFLMAO

CuriousLabs, Daz3D and Renderosity... Put them into a sack. Tie the sack up. Beat the sack. You will always hit the right one. And there is still room inside the sack. ;P

"Noticed that, did ya?;) Ah, but this is just the beginning. You ain't seen nothin' yet!" I have a (bad?) tendency to notice "inconsistencies". And, to presume that they will stop or be reversed is illogical. I can only presume that they will gradually, or rapidly, continue until we reach a state of "Poserosity". "where else would one of the poser creators post something like that & get an answer?" Um, OT = Off Topic, and seeing as how people post in this forum, he would have received his answer. :0)

But... but... but YURI! (fill in the blank) is an absolute wonderful company, they've never done anything wrong and never will! I've sold my car, house, children, soul, etc. just to have money to spend on their wonderful product(s), and anyone that criticizes them is obviously stupid/ugly/insane/diseased/evil and should shut up/drop dead/be arrested/be burned at the stake!

True Cyber but he's more likely to get a reaction from his fans in the Poser Forum, which is exactly what happened, not sure how I missed that one first time round, must go & beat myself severely for my unfan like behaviour in missing that post ;)

"True Cyber but he's more likely to get a reaction from his fans in the Poser Forum" As would be the case for many adverse Poser-related posts sent to the OT (aka "File 13") bin. I am sure that many Poser users would be interested in another application that may compete or enhance Poser's features/functionality; yet it was relegated to this forum. So, what is the difference? Preference for one individual over another? That is hardly a quality that I would expect a public forum would want to associate themselves with. Not implying that this is R'osity policy, but raising the question as to why one post differs from the other?

The truth is, the decision as to which threads get moved to OT is based wholely on the number of commas they contain. Now you know.

yeah, ok, I failed my English exams at school, so, I have no idea about puntuation, you caught me out x2k ;) it's a fact of life right now CL bashers get moved out of the Poser Forum & Daz bashers get to stay put.

"it's a fact of life right now CL bashers get moved out of the Poser Forum & Daz bashers get to stay put." Considering R'osity's "all things CG" type of format, I hope that is not the case either. It sets a horrific precedence. Where both CL and DAZ have so much to offer the community, I would hope that all posts would be treated equal.

What do they do with all-around-bashers?

Move them to the Virtual Tavern!

Lets ask the PTB.

...ooh...

Ya know what truly gets me? Is those people treating this like it is the end of the world, usually after hearing of some one elses problems and without owning the program or installing it. All of this rumor is based off of one seemingly angry post by Dan Farr, from more than a month ago. We don't even know if "working on it" has gotten any further than "hey dude think we should make a program? Dunno, who can program here? Hrm, better find out" Cl's bad move is still a matter of opinion in most cases, as well as Daz's supposed brilliant move. No one who has posted has any info one way or another. Vicky and Mike and all the mil figures work in P5. You can still use morph putty on them. So what if they don't work in the face room. Don and Judy are just as articulate, and if you want body morphs get off your butt and make some. As for Vicky 3, there is a pic of her on the rosity mag cd #3. She represented as a poser product. Personally I don't care who does what at this point, If daz gets together the programmers to make an app great. I like P5, I use it, I might buy Daz's product if it ever becomes more that dreamware of the masses.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

Bah!...me..I'm just stupendously amazed and enormously dazzled by all this...! v-e-r-y-i-n-t-e-r-e-s-t-i-n-g ...ooh...

Attached Link: http://www.daz3d.com/pages/faq/answers/other/development.html

And: http://www.daz3d.com/pages/faq/answers/other/poser5.html Well, one could check their FAQ where they state they've been working on it since January, which is where Artist3D grabbed his quote. If it were complete vaporware, I doubt they'd have posted it on their FAQ twice. Now... wether they deliver, what they deliver, what they can deliver, and how well it'll work - all that's up in the air. Heya - I'm not a major Daz fan either. No more than I'm a CL fanboy. But, as x2k stated, they'd have to work REAL hard at doing a worse job on an app than CuriousLabs has done. As far as being tired of hearing the rumours and discussions, including the disgruntlements here over the PTB selectively moving posts: here's $0.35 - go call someone who gives a rats.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

35 cents? Bugger, I've been short changing people. No wonder they didn't make any phone calls when I told them to. Sheesh, when that price hike happen? All of this rumor is based off of one seemingly angry post by Dan Farr, from more than a month ago. We don't even know if "working on it" has gotten any further than "hey dude think we should make a program? Dunno, who can program here? Hrm, better find out" Bzzzzzzzt, wrong, but never mind, it's not like you actually wasted the effort to find out is it? :)

"here's $0.35 - go call someone who gives a rats." Shit, I'll go FIFTY.

Fifty cents - going once? Do I hear a single DOLLAH, ladies and goims? ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I'll see your 50 & raise you a....

Eeeeewwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just... EEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!! ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

But at least now when I want to call some one who gives a rat's *ss... I know to give cooler a shout. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Are you going to eat that? If not, can I have it?

as long as you share with everyone....

Public Service Announcement! Regards- Lemurtek

Lets ask the PTB.<<< Thanks, MadYuri. I needed a laugh. Ya know, though, you'd think that if they were going to french-kiss someone's ass they'd at least have the courtesy to warn us that anything less than exhaltations about the kissees were not going to be tolerated in the forum overseen by the kissers. Oh, well. At least they kept the bull and its droppings in the Forum News forum. Wow! What an odor! (Forum News forum? WTF?) Take care and be well. casamerica P.S. - BTW, Worchester sauce first and then a smothering of Texas Roadhouse barbecue sauce over that rat's ass makes a delicacy that makes any mouth water. ;-)