Personally, and this is only my opinion here, but they needn't buy the program to look at the competition or create a competitive product. DAZ has been around and worked side by side with Poser since pretty much it's beginning. So they are well aware already of how the basic program works and current improvements that can be made to enhance the sellability of that software package. Add to that the fact that, here on a public forum, there is a Beta Test going on about the current build of Poser 5 and they have every ability to go in there and find out what problems Poser 5 is experiencing without even having to buy the application. Also, to further add, it isn't a mystery what modules have been added to Poser 5, since those modules are third party development, and all DAZ needs do is call the respective 3rd Party companies and negotiate with them the ability to utilize and incorporate these same modules in their own program without ever needing to purchase Poser 5. Furthermore, there is also the public here and other forums, who continue to post enough of their "Wish List", desires and complaints which provides a starting point for a Poser-like program without ever needing to purchase the competitive product... Also, by not purchasing it, a company like Curious Labs would have a difficult time making any allegation that DAZ had disesmbled the Poser code to create their competitive product. So no, it isn't necessary to purchase Poser 5 to create a competitive product. All of the tools and information to do so have been provided here (and at other Poser sites) publically for free... without having to spend one dime. :o) Jack

I pleadge allegiance to the brand name of the Digital Art Zone.

In all seriousness, Simon hits the nail on the head here with "the ones that end up loosing is us, the customer".

It's almost like two kids getting a bit too big for the lil kids sandbox. I'm sad to say that i've seen this sort of thing happen with one webhost after another. I'm getting an old familiar feeling with these two companies both of whom, I've really enjoyed doing business with. With webhosts trying to make it, they are all about listening to their customers and responding to keep us happy. you let some corporate mag call them the #1 host or some merger wqith a big company happen and that stuff is all but over. "I'm soory Sir if you don't like the fact that we have 3500 other websites on your box. If you don't like it, you're welcome to go elsewhere. Our main focus is now major clients such as AT&T"

I feel in many ways this has sort of happend to DAZ already and they managed to turn things around somewhat. I'm not sure what the future holds for CL. I can hope for the best, but I just don't know. It's not a company I'd buy stock in at this point in time given what I know.

I'm sorry if this is off topic. But this just seems like another in a long list of inconveniences to the community due to the falling out between the two giant kids.

I read somewhere that DAZ wanted 30k each to make Mike and Vicki work in the face room. I don't see the problem with that figure considering the benefit to P5. Maybe CL jus couldn't afford it or thought it was an exorbiant ammount. As far as I am concerned the face room is useless in it's current state.

Ah well, interesting time to be a fly on the wall I guess.

Regards,
Brent

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Jack I'm sure DAZ has disected Poser 5 already, to think different is just being ingenious. That's standard procedure for software development. A forum is by no mean a substitution of having and working with the program.

Brent, it was the other way around. DAZ wanted to make their character's Poser 5 Face Room ready. Curious Labs told DAZ they wanted 30k ( for each character) to make Michael and Victoria Face Room ready. It is my personal belief that Curious Labs set the price so high so that DAZ would purposely reject the "proposed" offer, believing that their (CL) derivitive(sp?) characters: DON & JUDY could beat DAZ's Michael and Victoria characters. Jack

Simon, you are going to believe what you are going to believe. There is no changing that. But I prefer to trust the word of DAZ who has stated both publically and privately that they haven't purchased Poser 5. And my personal belief, is that DAZ's program is going to be more like Poser 4 than like Poser 5 anyhow. So they wouldn't need Poser 5. Mind you, that is only my personal belief. But then again, why purchase a buggy application and try to mimic it?? When you have a previous build with much less bugs to mimic... Hmmmm... Jack

I wonder have Daz & CL never heard of Bartering? One person sets an outrageously high price then they gradually bring it down till both parties are happy with the price. I don't agree that we the customers are going to be the biggest losers in this situation, afterall we don't stand to lose our jobs if both companies go down the pan. If Daz stop supporting Poser altogether & their program turns out to be a turkey both companies will be gone pretty soon & we the customers will move on to something else. We lose Poser/Daz thingy but they lose jobs/houses, the community will mourn them for 5 minutes then forget them both. Wake up CL/Daz & smell your coffee do you really want to lose your companies? I'm sure Corel or Adobe would love to take Poser/Daz thingy off your hands.

Kupa had stated that the 30K was negotiable. Dan Farr then stated he did not know that, until it was too late to be done for Poser 5.

::chuckles:: Like I said previously before (and I am sure that DAZ would agree with me on this), setting a price that high and expecting the person to continue sitting at the table and negotiating down from there is pretty conceited. My opinion still stands, sorry, that CL didn't want to be troubled enough to work on making Michael and Victoria Face Room ready. It would've taken time away from them releasing their buggy application and been direct competition to their DON and JUDY figures.... Jack ~done severly Tongue in Cheek.

nah it's never too late, they could still get each other on the phone and sort it out, they're just being bloody stubborn is all.

Jack, That revelation is staggering. I mean STAGGERING. What an assinine thing for CL to do. Anyone, I mean anyone who has tinkered with the millenium characters can tell after 5 minutes of exposure to Judy that she isn't in the same league as Vicky. No diss at all to Colm and RDNA, it's just a simple fact. You can't blame them for promoting their creation. Heck I think it's cool they're in there so we have more default figures to play with. But, I mean come one, or in the words of Val (Kevin Bacon) from Tremors, "What the hell is going on? I mean what THE HELL IS GOING ON?" Someone explain to me why DAZ would want to pay to have their commercial characters included in P5? Is there a financial kickback for that? Are Syyd and Colm getting a slice for their fine work included in P5. How about all the awesome stuff on the bonus content cd? Those guys getting a little something something? I mean shouldn't it be the other way around with DAZ? Barring some radical change of attitude toward content providers, I'd be willintg to wager CL won't be the ones developing Poser 6. I mean, do they really think their users wouldn't flock in droves to any competitor that offer a more stable program? What it all comes down to is that instead of using the 3 years to recode Poser from the ground up into a new program, I guess they were preoccupied with how to protect their intellectual property. If DAZ codes a software from the ground up, it is almost guranteed to be a more solid peice of software. Furthermore if they have the vision to offer it for around $200 and just use a simple serial registery, we'll see who is screwing whom. The landscape of this community will look very different. and where some of the Giant kids are today, there may be a big ass greasy spot tommorrow.

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This morning I got an email from Curious Labs letting me know that the price of Poser 5 has been reduced. I'm glad to know that pre-ordering the upgrade from Poser 4 to 5 got me the lowest price possible. Or at least I would be if it had gotten me the lowest price. As it is, I'm not amused. Poser 5 was released with too many bugs. The first service pack helped but not enough. To have to put the second service pack into a public beta within 6 or 7 weeks of the product being released is insane. I don't expect any piece of software to be perfect but the bugs in Poser 5 makes it a pain to work with. If/when DAZ comes out with a competing product to Poser, I'll probably buy it. I've been much happier with DAZ than with Curious Labs.

I didn't get that email. What was it reduced to?

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SONOFA....Now that just tears it! It's only $319 November 15th. Dammit, I want my $30 back. Doing something like that this soon after the initial release just feels like a slap in the face to me.

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$319.00 until Nov 15, 2002

They need cash to make ends meet, sales are probably down and they have no content to sell like DAZ does so...

The price drop on the upgrade from Poser 4 to 5 is only $10 but it is still annoying. I emailed Curious Labs asking if I could get a $10 refund. Unsurprisingly they said no.

Maybe sales are down because the program has so many bugs that people are waiting for a stable application before buying it... rather than paying a bunch of money and then beta testing that product in the hopes that one day the application "might" work. :o) Jack ~who's getting back into the vocal way of things...

My prediction stands!

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Easy Jack..rumour has it that your particular post could be misconstrued as "tagging" which has been known to result in heavy penalization or at least which could find you wisked away to a dark, lonely room. Did I mention its lonely there too.

"Barring some radical change of attitude toward content providers, I'd be willintg to wager CL won't be the ones developing Poser 6." Prediction noted and agreed upon.

i personally dont think that we the consumer will suffer as stated above....instead we the consumer will benefit from it the fact that daz and CL are competing with each other only ends up saving us cash......i just wish daz wouuld give the commuunity an idea when his poser like program will come out......this is no difference than coke and pepsi .......nintendo and play station....compitetion is good business nnuu

{I wonder have Daz & CL never heard of Bartering? One person sets an outrageously high price then they gradually bring it down till both parties are happy with the price.} The thing about bartering is, if you set your price TOO outrageously high you risk having the other person just walk away thinking you aren't serious. This is regular business here, not a flea market or street vendor situation. Liken this more to setting a price on a house you are selling. You set the price a little higher than what you expect to get. If your house is appraised at $200,000, you might set the price at $225,000 to give you some negotiating room. Set the price at $2,000,000 and nobody will even LOOK at your house. Before you get to thinking that comparison is out of line, consider this. Here's what Face Gen charges to convert a mesh to work in their software (CL's face room is licensed from Face Gen): {The Custom Mesh Service is US $950. Contact us at sales@singularinversions.com or at 604-730-1727 (PST). Bundle Deal: Purchase the Custom Mesh Service with a Re-Distribution License and get both for US$1,450. } Now, granted there may be some slight differences in procedure here (between Face Gen and their licensed software), but $30,000 was not a serious number. I would have walked away from the table, too. That number was a slap in the face.

Perhaps the "vocal minority" has had an effect on the "buying majority"?

Wait a minute here... let me see if I understand this... Curious Labs has reduced the cost of the Poser 5 program, 8 weeks after it's release?? This is bad and shows just how little sales that they've been generating (not surprising considering the EULA, bugs and reports about it posted on this site and other Community sites and the reviews it's been receiving in 3D Mags)... But add to that, the fact that they wont offer a refund of ANY KIND to people who just purchased their product (despite the bugs) what are they THINKING?!?!? Hell, they could've at least offered a Gift Certificate to previous owners to purchase something from Content Paradise (opps, scratch that, it isn't open yet) or maybe to one of the Content Paradise Partners online stores... This is NOT the way to win Consumer Support, CL!!! Jack (who is beginning to wonder if someone is purposely sabatoging themselves)

This morning I got an email from Curious Labs letting me know that the price of Poser 5 has been reduced.<<< Yea, I got it also. Kinda like a kick in the teeth, wasn't it? We pre-order, get a program buggier than a U.S. Embassy in Moscow, then we are offered the privilege of being a beta-tester for a possible working version and now? We find out that as a reward for our patience and trust new buyers get it cheaper. I think CL just dissed this pissed-off devil dog one too many and one last time. casamerica, A Pissed-Off Devil Dog EAGERLY Watching the Clock. "New Computer - $2100.00. New Desk - $500.00. New 3d Models - $400.00. Poser 5 - Worthless. For everything else, there's Poser 4 and Vue d'Esprit."

I got the email and laughed. Sorry, but I couldn't help it. My first thoughts were, one that the upgrade sell price was a joke. If they wanted more sells, then they should have made a cut, a major cut in the upgrade price. My second thought echoed what has been said here. So soon and cutting prices. I then wondered if CL was hearing the footsteps coming up from behind them. DAZ is running hard to catch up and will have the momentum to overtake and surpass CL at this rate. While CL blunders around fixing P5 trying to get it to work, DAZ storms out with it's software. If it is reasonably priced and works, then I am afraid that CL will bite the big one. I haven't gotten P5 yet, simply because I am still waiting for the dust to settle and see what is going to happen with the software. I have enough problems that I don't want to install buggy software on my computer. I am waiting now for a stable version of P5 after a service pack or 3, or DAZ to come out their product. Either way, I will end up with only one of them THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE Sorry, but I couldn't resist that line ;}

Attached Link: Mike and Vicki 3 Wishlist

Greybro... the 30k "negotiation" price was posted here in this thread on 9/03/02: Mike and Vicki 3 wishlist. At least that's where I saw it first. The post you're lokking for is Post #26 by Daz3D. CuriousLabs "explanations" etc follow below a bit.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

"We lose Poser/Daz thingy but they lose jobs/houses, the community will mourn them for 5 minutes then forget them both." I disagree. There are still plenty of Poser 4 users who refuse to upgrade to Poser 5 that DAZ can support for many years to come. I have Poser 4 & 5 and still prefer to use 4. I may never use Poser 5 since CL really didn't upgrade the features I was looking for (animation improvements and the face room isn't what I expected). And the rest of the program just got more complicated for no reason. I think they were/are trying to attract high-end application users such as 3DS Max and get away from the hobbyists. I would miss DAZ for more than 5 minutes, because their customer service and quality beats anything else I've seen on the Net (not to knock many of the fine items in the MP).

Poser 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Pro 2014, 11, 11 Pro

Curious Labs has reduced the cost of the Poser 5 program, 8 weeks after it's release??<<< You got it, Jack. >>>But add to that, the fact that they wont offer a refund of ANY KIND to people who just purchased their product (despite the bugs) what are they THINKING?!?!?<<< Merry Christmas, suckers? casamerica

Poser 5 was the biggest waste of money for me this year. At the time I bought it the exchange rate was low (still is) so it ended up costing me $830. Nice huh. Now to top it off I could have saved myself some money if I hadn't pre-ordered rolls eyes Curious Labs will never, ever get another cent of my money. This on top of the whole EULA issue really shows how far they have moved from the realm of sensible. If Daz bring out a stable program in which I can use my exisiting characters (and I don't give a rats ass if I can use pz3), and get a better render than Poser 4, they will get my complete support. Hell, I'll make content for them if they want. Poser 5 is a joke, just not a very funny one. ~Oh crap, I think I just tagged this thread~ snicker

hmm.

~jon
My Blog - Mad Utopia Writing in a new era.

I thought that the reason for LOW Poser 5 sales was the registration process. How many more copies would have been sold without that? No one can know for sure, but let's see a show of hands from those that would have bought Poset 5 less the registration process. While we are at it, let's see a show of hands from those that would have stole Poser 5 instead of buying it had there not been a registration lock. I guess that isn't a fair question, as they probably downloaded a crack somewhere already. Back to marketing 101 for CL. Respect and trust your loyal customers. I think CL would sell more copies removing the challenge/response BS, then lower the price a few bucks. That's just my opinion.

OMG Xena - we often forget about the exchange rates inother countries - that is an incredible price for a coaster ;-] Simon - DAZ has stated that they were advised not to get P5 on the advice of their lawyer - furthermore they began production of their new software before the release of P5 - they didn't think CL was ever going to release a new Poser and let's face it their livlihood depends onit as well. So they began taking control of their own future in January, before they knew of P5. So there is no real reason to believe they would secretly install P5 to know what to do - heck theyjust have to look at the boards to know what not to do.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Oh also I find it very disturbing that they have reduced their price already - because I for one don't have full faith that if they go belly up they will provide alternatives to the authorization process.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

All this stuff psss me off as well and as a P5 customer I am less than happy with the whole Poser 5 saga to date but let's get a few things in perspective.

Poser 4 was not a great program. It was buggy as hell with lots of features that did not work properly. For over 2 years Metacreations did not properly support the program. It was only when they put it up for sale that Larry Weinberg (acting independently) started to release the patches to the community that got the program functioning fully and this culminated with 4.3 patch under CL. P4 still has lots of bugs or buggy moods!
We put up with it because we loved P4 and what it could be forced to do and also because this community was a rock of support and innovation.
The problems with P5 boil down to premature release due to financial problems in CL. In fact Poser 5 is getting a bit of a battering in the latest reviews (Computer Arts Nov 2002, Digit Nov 2002, 3D World #31 -current-) mainly for the bugs, lack of speed and lack of integration with high-end 3D programs like Max, Maya etc.

This is going to seriously damage sales in these Pro markets, which were a key target for P5 and are heavily influenced by such reviews. So who is responsible for changing the situation from that of "the most eagerly awaited 3D character app in recent history" to that of the debacle we now see?

I for one do not believe that Kupa and the CL staff would have ever wanted the current situation, unless they secretly endorse commercial suicide.
On the other hand, I do not believe that the beta testers could have failed to see so many of the bugs and problems that we are all experiencing or that CL could have been unaware of many of them.

Therefore, lack of cash forced CL to release a buggy beta.
But what about EGISYS the parent company?
Did they not have the resources to support CL for a little longer while the bugs were ironed out?
Maybe they did but were not willing, or got too greedy for a financial return or simply thought, in old Metacreation style, they would get away with it. Whatever the reason the early release was a bad, bad call and they are now reaping a whirlwind of community/customer anger, bad reviews and poor sales.
Will we ever get the truth and answers about the CL/EGISYS relationship and decisions to release the program early?
As we say in Ireland "Two Chances" - "Fk All" and "Sweet Fk All" on that front, so we can only speculate.

I actually love this program, want to continue using it and see amazing potential in it if all the bugs get fixed. I really believe it could be the best character program and much, much more if CL can get their act together. However, the sand is draining fast from the glass in the real world where perception is everything.

As to Daz developing its own program: Competition is the heartblood of innovation. I think it would actually be good for CL as a company if this happened.
Do I believe that Daz is going to produce a bug-free and superior competitor to Poser 5 on their first attempt?
No! Much as we might all desire it, I don't think so! ;0) But I will buy it and support them as well.

Only time will tell.
In the meantime it might be wise to give all of them a little more breathing space and see what happens.

Regards
STORM

The registration process bothers me in regards to the potential of being unable to use it in the future. Can't comment on the rest - I for one refuse to buy P5 because of the EULA and how it could affect 3-D Arena and the changes we have planned for the coming year.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

This is so unfair and I feel used. I bought Poser 5, I have not used it yet. BUT when the sale for the bundle of Poser 4 and PP was on, I missed the sale by 1 day!!! So I buy Poser 5 thinking that I'll have functionality with Mimic and other programs. Nope. I use lightwave. Poser 5 plugin not done yet, no ETA either, cant use Poser 5. okay. NOW they extend a sale on Poser 5 til Nov.?! I'm mad. I could have bought Poser4 bundle at a reduced price if they had extended that sale and had a useful program. why is Poser 4 priced SOOOOO high?! You cannot even BUY Poser 4 standalone anymore from Curiouslabs according to their store information. So I can't even buy JUST Poser 4 and use it. I'd have to shell out another $419 with the $369 I already payed JUST to have existing functionaly that my other friends have at their houses. This BITES!!!

I really do have faith in CL, The people and the product. But, that faith is dwindling VERY fast. I want to have a banner and yell for CL with all thats going on, but i feel like I've been hoodwinked, and bamboozled. <> <> wait and see, wait and see. yeah well my wallet is gunna wait and see where the next bill gets sent. sorry for the rant, but I DO think people need to see and hear how this community is feeling.

It might surprise him (though it shouldn't now), I would like to defend one or two of the points Jack has made. If DAZ has posted that they have not bought P5 (I haven't read it yet), there are good reasons to believe it. First, I have no proof to the contrary. Second, my dealings with DAZ as a customer have been good. Third, Jack's point about not being P5 helps DAZ defend against any charge that DAZ disassembled it to work on a competing app is entirely correct. Otherwise, DAZ would have to construct elaborate protocols for keeping the disassemblers and reverse engineers separate from the programmers, whether one calls such protocols a "chinese wall" or a "clean room." It could be done in theory, but it's not easy, and not at all easy to explain to a jury. And since the initial P5 EULA (haven't looked to see whether there's a new one yet) contained language that would encompass DAZ's apparent efforts, passing on P5 would be the prudent move for DAZ.

"let's see a show of hands from those that would have bought Poset 5 less the registration process." At least one. That's why I've never bought XP as well. jon

~jon
My Blog - Mad Utopia Writing in a new era.

That "being" should be "buying." And if you're wondering why I didn't preview my post, it's because doing so sometimes causes the loss of my post, and I'm too long-winded to retype things;-)

DAZ does not have any version of Poser 5 in any form. As it has been stated earlier, it is very important that we do not cross any legal boundaries in the development of our applications. As far as feature sets as well as the actual development of our application, they started in January of this year (long before the release of Poser 5). We don't need to have Poser 5 to know what features we want in the application we are developing. Our application is not intended to be a Poser Clone but a new 3D application that will have merits of its own. Animation, Posing, Rendering etc. are found in almost every 3D application. They all just have different ways of approaching those functions. As with everything else, some people may love what we develop and other may not. We are very excited about what we are developing and look forward to the day when we can share more concrete information about it. We appreciate all of the feedback and suggestions that we are getting from people in the community. This feedback is key to the success of what we are doing. Thanks for the comments, Sincerely, Dan Farr P.S. Back on topic, Mimic, should still be able to work with Poser 5 as that Poser 5 is backwards compatible. I am not sure whether or not Codetwister (the creator and developer of The Tailor) is working on anything that is Poser 5 compatible at this time.

I would have bought it if it weren't for the registration process. If they dump it, I'll buy it.

Lapis is correct Jack(Hope you are doing well).I was "Warned" that I was tagging(And I have NO idea what that means,other than it was a game played when I was about 5).I was told if I continued to "tag" I would be booted.I was quiet for a bit,but then I thought,too bad,I am stating how I feel.I am doing nothing wrong.It's funny,I remained quiet for a day and the SAME THINGS I brought up are being talked about by ALOT of other people.....Guess I am NOT a "whiner",and"the only one". ;o)

Mimic works fine with Poser 5, so long as the figures are Mimic-capable. This includes the older P4 figures, the Millennium figures (DAZ has an update for them), the new P5 figures (updated by the service releases), and the animal figures which I and others have updated.

Video clip (MPEG format, 557KB)

I'd have bought it, but that EULA is too much. I'll see the rest of you in Room 101 :-)

Well, Casamerica, I have to point this one out. Some 2 months ago you hardly attacked me and joked at me because I was complaining (with solid reasons) about the resellers policy for Poser 5, with a concept that I should not criticize the Curious Labs people which are friends to the community, etc, then you stated that I should have had trust in the CL people and give them time, with the trust that one friend would give another etc... and so on. A real heavy attack, especially since I was just expressing a concern that many Poser users in Europe shared. Now I read your messages and I see nothing of those beautiful concepts applied to yourself. I see straight attacks from you against CL, no memory of your pretended friendly trust, and no will to allow them time to set things right. What a difference a couple of months makes in a person's concept of friendly trust, and giving friends the time they need, I have to see. Or perhaps it's not the two months, it's the $10 dollar difference... $10... well you attacked me because I complained of a possible higher expense of $200+ for the purchase of Poser 5... and now you make all this rant for just $10? Really your friendship and trust concepts, should be not that much solid, if $10 are enough to make you forget completely about them. I wish Curious Labs more solid friends then. As for me, I am not disturbed by the $10 difference. I think that CL let me pay a fair upgrade price for Poser 5, already thanked them for this, and this is what was important for me. Now if someone else can buy it for $10 less than I did, I'm happy for them. I do not consider that an offense to me, as long as the price I paid was a fair one. Orio

I am not sure whether or not Codetwister (the creator and developer of The Tailor) is working on anything that is Poser 5 compatible at this time. >> Dan, Will we ever see products geared toward Poser 5 in the DAZ store? For what you say about Codetwister it seems that Poser 5 products will be allowed at the DAZ store. I got really excited about Poser 5 and started beefing up my DAZ content in anticipation to the new program. I was unaware that the companies weren't supporting each other as strongly as in the past. I was expecting to see updates of the stuff I've brought from DAZ for Poser compatibility. For example beside new versions of the Tailor and Mimic geared toward Poser 5 I would have loved to see versions of all the clothing that I've brought from DAZ made into dynamic clothing, same thing with the hairdo's. I also feel let down that Curious Labs didn't integrated the Millenium figures with certain Poser 5 features like the face room. I love my Mike, Vicky, Steph, the gorilla, dragon and hydra and the multitude of clothing and hairdo's I've bought from Daz and I intend to join the Platinum club and keep supporting DAZ, you are an incredible company and I'm very satisfied with what you've offered so far. I'm let down only that what I thought was going to be your next step: Poser 5 content: never was. I also think Poser 5 is an incredible program with a lot of potential and really miss the synergy between Curious Labs and DAZ. In a way I feel like a child in the middle of two parents getting a divorce but as an adult I understand that business is business and each company must do what they feel is best for their future. Hopefully it will be a friendly divorce and both companies will still support each other even though your products are not as well integrated as in the past.

Personally, I'd be plenty torqued off to find out that the Preorder Poser 5 sales "special" wasn't so special only 8 weeks after release. This is why I don't preorder things. To many ways for a user to get burned... or unwittingly pay to be part of a beta test project to fix the darn thing. Nope. I'd rather hold on to my money, avoid having myself and money become a guinea pig for some company and observe the outcome and performance of that program at a safe distance. :o) I am willing to bet that many of CL's customers will think twice before ever "PreOrdering" a product from that company ever again. Of course, PT BARNUM said it best (and seemed to be well adopted by looking in the Beta Test Forum): "There's a sucker born every minute". Jack

Simon, hi, it's me again... you said: "I'm let down only that what I thought was going to be your next step: Poser 5 content: never was." Actually, I am sure DAZ would've loved to have been able to increase profit margins for their company by creating and conforming ready made characters for use in Poser 5. However, if anyone is to be blamed for the fact that DAZ wont be, that blame or disappointment should be directed towards Curious Labs... since their current EULA makes it impossible for DAZ to have any involvement with Poser 5 and any content creation for it. Sorry... but that is why DAZ, DSI and other companies wont be either. Jack

For those of you who haven't read about the problems with the EULA, thinking that it doesn't affect you because you aren't a merchant, THIS is exactly why it does affect you. There are a lot of merchants beyond just DAZ and DSI that are not going to be making Poser 5 product until/if our concerns about the EULA are alleviated. Are we happy about this? Hell, no. It cuts into our ability to make money as much as it cuts into your ability to get P5 product. You probably haven't read much about those concerns here. Renderosity has taken the stance that its merchants have nothing to worry about and has downplayed any concerns. Perhaps Renderosity feels that because they are part of Content Paradise, their merchants are protected against the ambiguities in the EULA. As a merchant, I wouldn't take their word for it. What if you aren't exclusive here? What if you are, but decide to sell elsewhere down the road? What if Renderosity decides not to be involved with Content Paradise anymore? Beyond that, the concerns expressed by more than a few merchants regarding this EULA go beyond Content Paradise. If you want to see the most discussion about this issue (both sides), the best place to see it is here: http://poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3922 Warning. This thread is 60 pages long, but there are many, many valid points brought up here. And more than just merchants should be aware of what the P5 EULA implies.

Well, Casamerica, I have to point this one out. Some 2 months ago you hardly attacked me and joked at me because I was complaining (with solid reasons) about the resellers policy for Poser 5, with a concept that I should not criticize the Curious Labs people which are friends to the community, etc, then you stated that I should have had trust in the CL people and give them time, with the trust that one friend would give another etc... and so on. A real heavy attack, especially since I was just expressing a concern that many Poser users in Europe shared.<<< No, Orio, my argument with you was that you were gutless and attacked me via IMs. I parodied your attack on CL publicly because, yes, I felt they deserved a chance to make good on their promises. I stated they deserved to be trusted to make good. I still do. I have stated so publicly. But, as I have also stated, that trust has a time limit and the clock is ticking. I offered trust, not blind obedience. >>>Now I read your messages and I see nothing of those beautiful concepts applied to yourself. I see straight attacks from you against CL, no memory of your pretended friendly trust, and no will to allow them time to set things right.<<< No pretended friendly trust to it, sir. I make no apologies for giving them my trust. As I sated before, when given the chance I will always offer my trust to another UNTIL THAT OTHER BETRAYS OR OTHERWISE SHOWS THEMSELVES UNWORTHY OF THAT TRUST. I also made it clear that when that time came, I would not hesitate to call CL on it. That time is rapidly approaching. Everything until then is just a warning call. I offer trust, not blindness. I know when Ive been used. >>>What a difference a couple of months makes in a person's concept of friendly trust, and giving friends the time they need, I have to see.<<< Nothing in the concept has changed from my perspective. But when I begin to feel that trust being manipulated and used, then I will damn well let them know. And if that bothers you, tough. Again, trust does not mean blind obedience. >>>Or perhaps it's not the two months, it's the $10 dollar difference... $10... well you attacked me because I complained of a possible higher expense of $200+ for the purchase of Poser 5... and now you make all this rant for just $10?<<< Did not attack you. The $10 has nothing to do with it. My questions and calls were being made before their email ever went out. Get your facts straight. >>>Really your friendship and trust concepts, should be not that much solid, if $10 are enough to make you forget completely about them. I wish Curious Labs more solid friends then.<<< Wish all you want. Again, get your facts straight. My questions and inquiries to them began BEFORE their email and the announced reduced price. But, then I think you knew that. I guess after youve lied it gets easier the more you do it. casamerica

Hmmm. After reading Dan Farr's post. It got me thinking. Do we really know the true story? So far we are just hearing that DAZ was shunned by CL so they decided to make their own program. Dan said this was started way back in January. So that means since January. DAZ has been secretly building a competing program to CL. And CL probably didn't even know about it until months later. Yet DAZ was still in talks with CL, pretending they were still just a figure making endevor. I get to this conclusion by looking at what Steve Cooper and Dan Farr said in another thread. DAZ was still discussing making content for P5 up until a short time ago. No exact date was given. Which makes this hard to confirm. If this is true. It's typical business practice in America. But it's still ugly. It would make perfect sense for CL to modify and beef up their EULA because of this very fact. But ONLY if they knew about DAZ being in production of this secret program. So I'm guessing someone leaked this info to CL before they shipped P5. Resulting in a much stricter EULA. So I personally have to wonder. Just how innocent is DAZ in all of this? The time tables mented so far make me very suspicious about the whole thing. According to my calculations. January was too far back to NOT be still discussing possible content partnership with CL. Thus making DAZ liars about their good intension with CL in the first place. The whole thing is highly fishy. And the dates spell out a very interesting picture. Of course. It's possible I've watched one too many ep's of CSI. ;-) ScottA

In this thread and others I have repeatedly read comments referring to a controversy between CL and DAZ, that they should work together, that they are being stubborn brats, etc. Well I'm sorry but I just don't understand. As far as I can tell the only major stumbling block is that DAZ fears that the P5 EULA may relieve them of those rights normally due to a content producer- namely, ownership of products they may develop. I find it difficult to think of that as a childish or petty response from DAZ. Frankly, it looks like the ball is in CL's court. Until CL corrects the EULA problem it seems there is little DAZ can do to in terms of supporting P5. - Jack

...So far we are just hearing that DAZ was shunned by CL so they decided to make their own program. You may be hearing that but I have read nothing in the forums to indicate this came either from CL or DAZ. I'm not sure that CL has even made a public comment about this. The only thing I have read from DAZ said that they were concerned about Poser's continued survival. Believing caution to be the better part of valor they considered releasing their own program so that their models would continue to have a market. ...DAZ was still discussing making content for P5 up until a short time ago. And it was also just a short time ago that the P5 EULA disaster became known. Such things have been known to alter one's plans. ...Just how innocent is DAZ in all of this? I'm not really sure what you mean. DAZ has not publicly attacked P5 or CL. They did voice their concerns over the P5 EULA but they can hardly be faulted for that. They did not have to tell us about their future program but did so only to avoid giving the impression of having a hidden motive. When they felt honour required it they revealed their plans so that we might arrive at our own conclusions. Certainly it is true that DAZ may have been working on their program for some time. But since when has it become necessary to make such future plans public or to reveal one's commercial intentions to the competition? I'm not so much confused about DAZ's innocence as I am having some difficulty trying to figure out just what they may be guilty of doing. ...Thus making DAZ liars about their good intension with CL in the first place. I'm having trouble figuring this one out too. On the one hand DAZ owes its very existence to Poser. It is a proven, indeed their only, market. Now they're planning on releasing their own program which may or may not be successfully received by the market place. So you're suggesting that DAZ is prepared to bet their very existence that their program will immediately replace Poser in the users' hearts and souls? Remember that DAZ did not say that their program would be a Poser replacement. They said only that it might be considered competitive with Poser. I may have misinterpreted this but took it to mean that the P5 EULA was so extraordinarily broad that almost anything might be considered competitive or derived content. Frankly, it seems that it would be in DAZ's best interests to continue to support Poser if at all possible. Excepting P5, they seem to be doing just that. - Jack

Regarding the current price, I would buy PPP for the price of P5(from P4), but with all the problems, I have no interest in P5 at any price. I would have bought it when they had the sale, but I was waiting for the release of P5......came really close though:( eric

Jack, There are far more people here saying that DAZ was the victim And CL was the villian. Thus the statement: "Just how innocent is DAZ in all of this?". Your idea that the EULA scared DAZ away makes sense. But that only works within in a certain timeline. Dan's message eludes to a different one That I wasn't aware of. And the games afoot. You prefer to see it a certain way. And that's ok with me. But I prefer to keep analyzing the new data that keeps coming in. I find this whole thing fascinating. Analyzing statements and dates. Theorizing motives and reasons for actions and reactions. It's the kind of thing you'd study in business class. ScottA

I think CL's lack of desire to have DAZ involved in the content creation went much farther back than just these last few months. It takes time to generate product to include into Poser, expecially the level of product that was created for Poser 4. Rather than thinking that DAZ was sneaky, I have a feeling that as the sands of time was running out which would've been necessary to create new content for Poser 5, DAZ finally decided that they would not be the providers of content for P5 and began to make steps to create a product of their own to match their content and/or expectations. I believe that the conversations that DAZ continued to have with CL was NOT about new content, but rather the current content of previous versions of Poser and their permission for CL to alter those meshes in some way without violating any contract with DAZ who in reality owns that geometry. No. I don't see anything done on the part of DAZ as being shaddy or untrustworthy, but I just can't say the same for the other player. DAZ could've completely stopped the release of CL altered geometry, which would've greatly effected the worth of Poser 5 or even the release of it (which might've solved allot of issues). But that is all I am going to say for now, I am going to bite my tongue... but only for now. Jack

Uh oh. I'm caught between two Jacks. ;-) It could have played out that way Jack (Jack D.K.). I'm just not that trusting of either side. Hell of anyone. ;-) I see too many red flags at this point to clear either side. But that's ok. Like I keep saying. This isn't an emotional battle for me. I find the whole thing fascinating. And prefer to keep poking through the ashes. New statements just confirm to me. That we don't know the whole story. ScottA

I agree with you Scott (surprise you some?? LOL ) that NO we aren't getting the full story and probably wont likely get the full story and even if we did, it would probably come to a point to try and determine which one is "truthful" about it or not. Some of us are a bit more clued in as to what actually happened or why the story might not be mentioned publicly, but... alas... it again comes down to picking sides. I totally agree!! It is interesting and I think it is going to be a very interesting ride for the Community in the coming months and it will be interested to see if it divides or remains as it is. Basically, the whole thing is slowly boiling down to a popularity contest and knowing this Community like, the both of us do, it's not going to be pretty or enjoyable... but interesting to witness and add to our "journals". Jack

It is an interesting study isn't it Scott. I've been an imaging director fo far too long I guess, but this one is facinating. One's trying to build an image, the other is trying frantically to maintain there's. Time will tell! I have my predictions based on what is known so far. As of today...DAZ 1...CL -5. Perception is reality.

A Negative Five?? Man that's harsh... but probably on the mark. :o) Jack

Hrrmmmmmmmmmm............... ************ "You guys just don't know what's really going on at CL. Everything is just hearsay. And that seems to generate a lot of avoidable problems. If you guys were a bit closer with the company. You'd have a better understanding of the problems they have to deal with. And why they do what they do. I guess I know too much. But not quite enough. ;-)" - ScottA ****************** "Steve...... Please do explain all of the hurdles you've had to go through just to get where you're at with P5. Nobody belives me. :-) But then again. I didn't exactly give them any specifics either. I didn't know what I should and should not say in public. I sincerely believe that if you open up to the community. Tell them what's going on from day to day. They will back off a bit and not be so harsh to you guys. People will still complain. But it will be different. You will be working side by side with them. Remember the good old days when you guys hung out on the Poser list? The only thing you did differently back then was talk to us more often. But it made all the difference in the world. I realize that you can't talk about things sometimes because of competitors lurking in the shadows. But that doesn't mean you can't shoot the breeze with the community. Or talk about what's working or not working. If not you. Then hopefully someone can be assigned to the task. I sure do miss Ollie who used to run the Poser list. He was a great CL rep. ScottA " **************************** From that to "I'm just not that trusting of either side. Hell of anyone. ;-) I see too many red flags at this point to clear either side. But that's ok. Like I keep saying. This isn't an emotional battle for me." - ScottA Seems like quite a switch. Whatever happend to "Gee! But Mr. StayPuff would NEVER harm us!" ? ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

I feel fairly certain that we don't know all the details, because it would be silly for either company to tell us all about their internal decision making process. I >am< fairly certain that there is much, much more than meets the eye here.

I'm absolutly sure that all of them have some smelly secrets in their basements. Its the tip-of-the-iceberg principle, the shit we see flying is only the top layer of a really big dunghill.

BTW with all of them I don't mean only CL and DAZ. There are some more players in the game...

I like your analogy MadYuri. Sounds like something my dad would say. Gruff and to the point but capturing the essence just the same. My observation I make is that one of these players in sitting on a bigger pile.

My best instincts tell me not respond here. My coworkers tell me not to. But there are comments here that seem to represent a mission to cause harm to our company or to DAZ. I'm sorry people get caught up in this kind of speculation. There are no lingering hidden secrets that I know of. There are no hidden EULA agendas. The people working at Curious Labs take the communities' statements very seriously. These are not evil mysterious people wondering who to take advantage of next. These are incredibly hard working people who truly care about their product and are struggling through hard times in the economy like everyone else. We're sorry if some of you choose not to believe this. We'll do our best to change your mind. Curious Labs is perfectly willing to work with DAZ and has been and continues to sell DAZ content on our store. We have ongoing discussions to help get their models more compatible with Poser 5 advanced features. We've been up front with DAZ on everything we've been working on at all times in our development. We've told them exactly what features we've been working on, and what models we've been building. DAZ has decided, since January, not to support Poser 5 for legal reasons of their own invention -- long before our EULA even existed. How is this the fault of Curious Labs ? And how does this make anyone in the community happy ? We modified our EULA to protect theft from others as I've explained before. We have been investigating our EULA with a lawyer to see if there are ways we can simplify and clarify because of the way some people want to read it. If it's possible, we will do it. But we have no hidden agenda with our EULA. We've stated it many times. When DAZ/Zygote's own models were stolen by another company, WE lost in front of a judge trying to defend their geometry because we didn't have specific clauses in our EULA. We changed our EULA to help the community and DAZ -- and we get it turned around against us. It's really a shame because we have absolutely no ill intent whatsover. Geometries built by you are copyrightable and sellable. We say it every time we're asked, you don't want to believe it Jack. Textures made by you - copyrightable and sellable. Morphs, Copyrightable and sellable. Animation sets, copyrightable and sellable. One company steals models shipped with our application and we can't stop them without a EULA. Copyright settings in our appication? Can't be done. If we (or the courts) allowed that, you wouldn't be able to sell a clothing figure that worked with a DAZ(or other) model because that group (or other) could claim they own the proportions, or some joint angle, and you can't sell something to work with their model. That's why we changed the EULA. It had nothing to do with us versus DAZ. We had no idea they were working on software when the EULA was written. It was written to maintain free trade for supporting figures and prevent theft of stolen geometry and textures -- not prohibit free trade. And it was written under legal advice. Content Paradise is designed to be a system to help make it easier for people to find available content through multiple content vendors and for content creators to more easily get their work found. We are excited about it, and once you experience it you will be too. We hope to bring this live very soon. Why in the world would we want to inhibit sales of content ? The brokering partners we have coming in to it are thrilled to be part of it -- and there are many of them -- Renderosity, BBay, Turbo Squid, and others. We're doing everything we can to help make availability of community created content easier and faster. We would have loved to have had DAZ be part of this, and still do. We think the community would benefit from this heavily. Our percentage from this system will barely pay for the costs to maintain it in our estimation. We did it because we believe it will make using Poser a richer experience -- and it will greatly help many users who have no idea of the wealth of content that is available on forums like renderosity. It will open up markets for content creators that they didn't know existed. Over the years, we have probably spent more than $200,000 for content/production services from DAZ/Zygote. And we didn't even own the full rights to the content generated. The same models we paid to have built for Poser were then repackaged and sold for competing applications. We weren't mad. That was what we got for the deal we made. We would like to see Michael and Victoria supported in our face room. At the time people refer to, we had no one available to do the work, and all of our staff was swamped with what they had to do. The truth is it was going to cost us money to support an engineering effort to support their products and their sales at that time -- a time in which they were already under way to make their own Poser-like software. We must be screwheads to suggest that we get paid for several months of work (amounts are exagerrated as to what they would have been since no suggestion of price was offered from DAZ). In reality, it wasn't of serious enough interest to DAZ at the time to even suggest a price, and we hadn't worked it all out technically yet on our end. They had already made up their mind in January. We have continuing and open discussions with DAZ. We'd like to see compatible formats and complementary features in all models and applications produced by both companies -- and everyone else. I believe DAZ would like that as well. There is plenty of room for everyone to have the tools and models they want to use to create their artwork. We are not choosing to shut DAZ out of Poser 5. We have offered to clarify any EULA problems they may have. If they want to support Poser 5, we're more than happy to support them on it -- even if they are writing software as well. We work to support 3DMax and Lightwave and Cinema4D and Maya (yes we have more work to do on these to bring them up to the level of Poser 5 -- we know and we ARE working on it). And yes, we are working on a Mac OSX as well. We spend a lot of time in our engineering efforts, and in our QA, to make sure the DAZ models are supported inside Poser. If those are some of the models you like to use, we will do our best to make sure Poser handles them correctly. Service Release 2 Beta 2 of Poser 5 should hopefully go out tomorrow. It has additional fixes for compatibility with DAZ and other models (in addition to rendering speedups, memory reductions, and other stability improvements). We do not have support for Michael and Victoria in the face room for Poser 5 yet. We are discussing this technically with DAZ now and would love to see it happen and have put forth offers to help make it happen. We're all for it. It's not a two day task. We are also sorry to see negative Poser 5 statements. We are busting our butts right now to correct some problems -- many of which went undiscovered through our 80 beta users. The final SR2 update will improve many things including great improvements in the new renderer. We have been addressing the specific operating system crashes on some machine and have fixed every case we've been told of and could reproduce. I think people are enjoying being negative right now while snipers run loose and the stock market crashes, but Poser 5.0 has many streamlined features and fantastic new capabilities that people are just discovering. We believe it to be a great product, and so do many users. We may have made some unfortunate choices in default settings (including a much higher resolution figure, full tracking, and skip frames off) which gave people the impression of sluggishness, but in fact Poser 5 has the same or better interactive speed as Poser 4, and all of the old rendering options are available if compatibility with the past is needed. There were specific cases that were causing the new renderer to bogg down and allocate too much memory. The SR2 update will improve many of these. Enough said. Enjoy, Larry Weinberg

Tell your staff you did the right thing posting here. People just need assurance. Its human nature. I am very glad to hear your obvious passion for this software. Keep the lines open like this, keep rocking on the software, and the negativity will melt away. You have been honest and forthright in your post here and I appreciate it. I know your busy, but please keep us updated. This will absolutely boost user confidence . Silence can be percieved as not caring and in todays marketplace, perception is reality. Tonight you have made an important step in changing that perception. Good on you mate!

I agree with Lapis Larry you did the right thing posting a reply. Some of us who actually bought Poser5 really do want to see it succeed in a big way.

"If they want to support Poser 5, we're more than happy to support them on it -- even if they are writing software as well. We work to support 3DMax and Lightwave and Cinema4D and Maya (yes we have more work to do on these to bring them up to the level of Poser 5 -- we know and we ARE working on it). And yes, we are working on a Mac OSX as well." HI Larry Ive Been a poser user since Fractal designs poser2 Ihave no time for nor interest in, any of the contrived Drama or conspiracy theories Surrounnding this DAZ vs CL subject. BUT im am a MACINTOSH user running OSX 99% of the time and i was wondering if there is any chance that you GUYS could "Carbonize" the current FREE propac plugin for the OSX version of cinema4DXl and let us import poserpro 4 animations into our OSX version of cinema4DXl?? I know a whole community of C4DXL MAC die hards who would BUY poser4 pro as a character animation plugin for C4D. and you could unload more of those old copies of poser4 pro$$$$. Just a thought. **-wolf359 founding member of "the 12 animators"-**

My website

YouTube Channel

As the man who invented Poser and broke his butt to give this community the P4 improvement patches when Metacreations was dumping it, your words carry great weight Larry. You should communicate with these forums more often as Lapis suggested above.
And while CL is working flat out to fix the bugs, it is not really appreciated by the community unless there is feedback. It may well be worth the effort to sacrifice some development time in favour of much more feedback on the problems. Even simple responses to problems such as "we know about it and have a fix which will be released next week."
It is really easy to get totally frustrated and go crazy in the dark and much of the anger and negativity being expressed here and elsewhere is directly related to little or no feedback.
In addition this has a strong cumulative effect on prospective P5 buyers who get turned off by the whole process. So do all of us a favour and bombard the forums with answers to the problems being expressed and get the tutorials out ASAP.

Regards
STORM

Thanks Larry.

One of the main reasons I'm mad is the recurring trend to take the community for a ride. DAZ, CL and others snipe at each other in many threads, but we don't see the underlaying details. This is the reason for many rumors, much panic and overall confusion.

I really hope things are not beyond remedy, there is much to be said about: 'United we stand, divided we fall'.

I will look into the C4D on OSX concept. Thanks for the push. We have some technology pieces ready for OSX, so this may be doable in the near future. Of course Poser 4 Pro will never be on OSX. That will have to wait for Poser 5. We do try to stay involved in the forums. Several of our people post often actually. I get scared usually :) We are also trying to direct issues of bug fixes to the beta forum so that it is easier for us to keep up and provide good feedback. That's why Renderosity set up the SR2Beta forum. Thanks for the kind responses and being part of this crazy thing. Larry

Jane stop that crazy thing! Get some rest Larry. Rome wasn't built in a day. Cyber Rome perhaps not not that real place in Italy. Goodnight

Man I'm stuttering on screen again. Goodnight.

I spoke to Larry a few times in emails a few years ago before I joined here.He was honest,informative,and cool then,and he is now.Thanks Larry.P.S.For some reason when I try to run Walk Designer with Mike2 it freezes and I have to re boot my PC.Same for rendering,(takes forever).So far he won't work at all there.Will the fixes fix that?I thank you for saying you will try to make him and V2,et all,compatiable with ALL the rooms in Poser5.Hopefully we can get the same resolution for the heads as we have with the bodies.Will the technical retards(me,I admit)be able to say,place the proper pictures(front and side) in the face room and add the new head to the M2/V2 bodies like we want to?That is what we are hoping for.Again,Thanks for talking to everyone.I can't wait to recieve the Patch CD,since I really can't use the program since I purchased it.I am looking forward to finally use Poser5 like it was meant to be used,and I hope CL and Daz work things out.I love Daz and Mike2/Vicky2 so their inclusion into Poser5 means alot.I/We, appreciate the post.

Thanks Larry, your post is very re-assuring. Thanks for letting us know you are willing to fully integrate the DAZ models, to me than speaks a lot about Curious Labs commitment to the community. I know DAZ wants the best for the community too. I know both companies can work things out and we can get the most of each of your wonderful products.

"We have continuing and open discussions with DAZ. We'd like to see compatible formats and complementary features in all models and applications produced by both companies -- and everyone else. I believe DAZ would like that as well. There is plenty of room for everyone to have the tools and models they want to use to create their artwork. We are not choosing to shut DAZ out of Poser 5. We have offered to clarify any EULA problems they may have. If they want to support Poser 5, we're more than happy to support them on it -- even if they are writing software as well. We work to support 3DMax and Lightwave and Cinema4D and Maya (yes we have more work to do on these to bring them up to the level of Poser 5 -- we know and we ARE working on it). And yes, we are working on a Mac OSX as well." Well, if there was any doubt, I guess the Mac users now know where they are on the totem pole. Hey! Ow! You're standing on my head!

Interesting post Mr. Weinberg, interesting. One thing though. "But we have no hidden agenda with our EULA. We've stated it many times." You can state it in the forums until you're blue in the face and people's eyes are bleeding, it means nothing here. It means EVERYTHING on your EULA. YOU, might not decide to enforce any of the potential within your EULA. But who's to say that someone buying the company or product won't? Sorry, reassurances are so much vapour when they're posted in a place like this. Who's to say that in 6 months you haven't been bought out by another company MUCH more militant who WILL enforce the legal verbiage? Not going to happen? Hostile and non-hostile take-overs happen all the time. Don't mean to be belligerent but too many reassurances have failed to materialise as well as promises that haven't happened. It makes for a jaundiced audience. We'll see. There's still a lot to happen yet and the next few months will be very interesting indeed, not least of which will be Content Paradise and some other developments that are occurring. As for Daz. I find your words curious. You complement them and say you're working together in one hand while sniping at them with some clever rhetoric in the other hand. However that's all moot really. It's nice to see something from someone who still has some justified respect comment on this, and I agree wholeheartedly with some of the other people here that yes, you guys do need to lose a few minutes development time to answer the generous people in the beta forum who are trying to help you, it's nothing more than respect and common decency to answer them, even if it's just a few seconds to say "thank you, got that"... in a thread. Think about it. You'll find some of the flak might die off if you make that small effort.

{What it all comes down to is that instead of using the 3 years to recode Poser from the ground up...} Don't forget, that during that "3 years", CL developed and released Avatar Labs, which was very well-received by the Adobe Atmosphere users... all 10 of them agreed that it was a great product! {This morning I got an email from Curious Labs letting me know that the price of Poser 5 has been reduced. } What?? I paid full price for a buggy piece of software and NOW, if I had waited, I could have paid less! I am liking CL less and less every day! Maybe we should all complain (louder) to egi/sys, CL's parent company. Or sell the stock short- the way CL is treating its core audience/ market, I don't think they're going to be around too much longer {I am willing to bet that many of CL's customers will think twice before ever "PreOrdering" a product from that company ever again.} Um, Jack, I think that should be "...customers will think twice before ever ORDERING a product from [CL] again." As for DAZ not having a copy of P5, I can believe it. I've heard rumors that they're hiring people to write "tutorials" for P5. That way, the "writers" use the program, figure out how it works, find all the bugs, and report back to DAZ. And DAZ themselves never touches the P5 program. {We hope to bring [Content Paradise] live very soon} Yes, thanks, for the update Larry. Thank you for telling us that things that should have worked with the first release of P5 (Content Paradise, Lightwave/ Vue/ 3D Max plug-ins, P5 for Mac) are coming "soon". No approximate release date, no estimated date, but "soon". You do know that "soon" should have meant September (or even October). Now, we are approaching November (and 2 months after the release of P5) and these features (including "Content Paraside", a major "feature" listed on the Poser 5 box!) will be ready "soon"?? Okay, whatever. I'll believe it when I see it. And, like the SR2 beta, will you be needing people to pay you to be beta-testers for these features? And, thank you Larry, for addressing our concerns over the price reduction in P5. From all of us pre-ordering people (who can't get a refund for the difference), thank you. There's nothing like paying full price for something, and then, 8 weeks later, see it go on sale. (For everyone else, that was meant as sarcasm- Larry never said a word about this issue.)

Lol IB. Funny how you interpret things to fit your own point of view. But then, that's what you always do. Thanks for posting this Larry. I wasn't aware of a third party that stole the meshes. That whole situation sounds awful. ScottA

Sounds to me like a public pissing contest, and doubtless it will be us that get hosed in the end. As for the DAZ program, I suspect that much like Nvidea before them, (who've been talking up a similarly non existent product) they are doing it to "queer the pitch" in the hope that people will put off buying X to buy the "soon to be released..." Y it's what people in many other industries have been doing for years, (including MS) it's nothing but FUD, (Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt) Me? I'll "believe it when I see it" I've probably been as guilty of "tagging" as the next man, but I do believe that CL will see us right in the end. It's a shame that they felt the (financial) need to release it early, but "them's the breaks" As for the price cut, I figure they need more cash. I also pre-ordered, so I'm not getting my nose all bent out of shape over a few bucks, it cost me over the odds from egi.sys anyway. Move along, move along, nothing to see here...

Thank you Larry for your reply... :: Please let us know when the EULA works out so we might be able to support your "Awesome" program. John Render said: "Um, Jack, I think that should be "...customers will think twice before ever ORDERING a product from [CL] again." I stand corrected and believe you are right. My bad. :o) Praxis, no offense bud, but to accept a situation like this (pay for none working application, be subjected to Beta Testing the product you paid for and expected to work, and accept that company to slash it's price giving other future users better deals), invites other companies to adopt the same priniciples. Here is a kind and helpful bit of advice to Larry and crew at Curious Labs/Egi-Sys.... 1.) Start replying to your paying customers who are working their asses off to make sure the money they paid you was worth it. No shit the economy sucks, you think your company is the only one hit by this? I can very well believe allot of the Customers who just bought your buggy software, parting with money they might not have been able to afford, have their own Economic crisises going on at home. You could at least show those people support by answering their posts. You aren't the only one hit by this Economy. 2.) Plan on finding interesting ways in which to award the Pre-order purchasers of Poser 5. Those people cared enough about your company to send you money for an application with the expectation of it working, supports your company by accepting those conditions and help you to work to fix them. Those people need to be compensated for their time. You are expecting too much if you are looking for a hand out while running a business. Treat them with the same respect and support that they are showing you. 3.) Read your own EULA... oh, and while you are at it, also take a look at your "Private" beta test forum, before you start pushing your woes of "undiscovered" bugs off on the original beta testers. I wont allow any of us 80 people be accused of not doing our job!! I have much more... but I will be compiling them. Thank you for your time, hate to have bothered you. Jack

Larry, Thanks for posting your message. I'm not suprised you were advised against it, it seems some of the community here claim they want CL to comment, only to pounce like hungry wolves, and try to tear any comment to bits. I'm happy with my purchase of P5, and I'm sure a lot of other P5 customers feel the same way. Zero bugs would have been nice, but at least you are all working hard to fix, which is all that can be expected now the product is out of the door. I think it's a shame that some content providers feel they cannot provide P5 content at present, I suspect they are already losing sales to people like myself, who have moved on from P5, and are looking for content which uses the new features. As more people move from P4 to P5 there will be less market for products which are limited to P4 (or similar) applications. I hope this can all get sorted out soon. Cheers Ian

Jack K -- I honestly want to get to the bottom of your fury and hope you can suggest some specific things that you'd like to see improved in the near future. Let's be constructive. I asked our QA what bugs you reported during our beta process. You logged bugs #7, #8 and #141. Bug #7 was an installation problems that caused Poser to not launch. Bug #8 verified that you got it working. We then fixed several installation problems to help prevent the situation. Bug #141 was called "Render Engine went Poop". This involved two things to our knowledge: a crash which was fixed, and a problem in our explanation of how to set up reflections. We took your frustration of the unfinished material room to heart, and we added HTML help windows to the material room (and other rooms) to help explain the basic setup of Ray Traced reflections because the steps involved were not obvious. We agreed with you and spent days on addressing it. We weren't planning on HTML help windows until your feedback. You helped us to improve the product. Jack, that's all the specific files and problems that you reported to us during the Beta period that I am aware of. Specifically, what would you like to see Curious Labs do to improve things in the coming months ? Do you want to help on this, or is your mission here simply to try to damage our reputation ? Seriously. We are actively working on addressing any issues which cause people grief. We take the EULA conversation seriously as I've said. Our last quote from a lawyer was that it would cost us $10,000 to redraft it with a specialist. As I said, we are looking into a clarification that we will post once it is finished that will make our intended stance clearer, and still protect us and our partners from theft of content -- which unfortunately has happened already to Zygote's content. The geometries were re-triangulated and resold as another commercial package and we couldn't stop it because our earlier EULA wasn't clear in a judge's opinion. Larry

"My best instincts tell me not respond here." - Larry Weinberg. You probably should have followed your best instincts. "Lol IB. Funny how you interpret things to fit your own point of view. But then, that's what you always do." shrug I interpret what I read, and I read you talking out of both sides of your mouth. But then, that's what you always do.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

Larry, Is there any chance you could say who that was who stole the meshes? I'll understand if you can't. But if you can. I'm very curious to find out who did that. Thanks, ScottA

Scott, CL already stated elsewhere that it was somebody outside the US. Probably nobody in this community. Larry, $10,000 sounds like a lot. Perhaps if you offered less, your lawyer would negotiate the fee?

Larry, I would very much like to be constructive and get down to the root of my feelings so that we can work them out and help to increase the value and support for Curious Labs and Poser 5. Good to know someone from CL is interested in learning what my frustrations are. Obviously you are taking a big risk here and I appreciate that. That is why I want to make absolutely sure with you before I state anything that I have the ability to defend myself regarding my bug reports in your Beta test forum which was covered by NDA. Can I, be waved from that hold so that I can properly express myself, since all eyes are now turned to me expecting a reply to your public question to me in this thread? In short, can I discuss things that happened during the beta test. Jack

And, like the SR2 beta, will you be needing people to pay you to be beta-testers for these features? Automobile manufacturers have recalls all the time. These are problems only found when many, many people are using their products.

Jack -- I don't see a need for you to defend yourself here. You've helped us in the past during our Beta period as I've stated. It helped us to improve the product. I brought up your specific bug reports to re-emphasize that we have, and still do, address every serious bug or problem that is brought to our attention in a helpful format. You've obviously had reason to be frustrated and I'd be glad to help problems go away with changes we can make. You've expressed this enough here that I think it's time we talk one on one. If you'd like to talk to me personally about the past, you know how to contact me privately and I'd be happy to discuss specific problems that you may have had with us or with any of our employees specifically. There's no need for that in this forum. I think it's innappropriate. I see no reason to undo previous NDAs. I think we've tried to address specific attacks to our reputation here, and if you have a real interest in helping Curious Labs, than you can express your deeper complaints to me in email or on the phone. I'd be happy to spend the time with you. Larry

On the issue of the specific party that repurposed DAZ/Zygote geometry, no we cannot discuss who this was. It was a company, not an individual artist that you might know in the community. We had our day in court and lost. We are actually prohibited from any specific reference to this company by name in relation to the matter. I can only say that it happened. Hopefully they don't do things like this any more. Larry

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=483699

Larry,

I dont know if it was my earlier post or those of others that made you feel so compelled to speak into this thread against your better judgement. If it was mine, I apologize as that I did not intend anything that would be viewed as inflammatory or derogatory towards CL. It is a very tricky position for both of our companies in dealing with public issues. Sometimes it is best to remain silent and let speculations run amok and other times it is best to jump in at the right time to handle damage control. It is nearly impossible to always know what is best. We have sure made our fair share of mistakes.

I have always enjoyed working with you personally and feel that you try to deal with people on a fair and honest basis. The problem I have is that you may not know all the details of the dealings that DAZ has had with other individuals at your company. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that your statements in your post are based on misinformation rather than a desire to be dishonest or misleading. I do feel that your statements paint one side of the fence but leave the other untouched. I will discuss some of those statements directly.

First of all, the characterization that DAZ decided not to support development for Poser 5 in January is wrong. DAZ has decided, since January, not to support Poser 5 for legal reasons of their own invention -- long before our EULA even existed. How is this the fault of Curious Labs ? And how does this make anyone in the community happy? DAZ had full intentions to continue developing products for Poser 4 and Poser 5 until the time and point that we read the Poser 5 EULA. We did not invent legal reasons to not support Poser 5. If you, yourself, do not see the problems in the agreement, then why have you alluded that you intend to change it? You stated above that the main reason for the changes in the P5 EULA is to protect the community and DAZ. If your motivation is merely to protect our data, then to make things easier I suggest that you just revert to the Poser 4 agreement and we will take our chances. I am sorry if all of these EULA issues have come up purely as a result of your efforts to look out for DAZ/Zygote (or to live up to your contractual obligations to protect that data) and have no other ill intentions.

You have also mentioned concerns that appear to question DAZs sincerity about the face room set-up of our models. Admittedly, we were developing our own application at that time. This does automatically mean that we would not continue developing models for Poser customers. The Millennium Dragon, Platinum Club and the upcoming Victoria 3 prove otherwise. We were 100% interested in having Victoria 3 Face Room compatible but just not at the price we were quoted. I think Diane brings up a good question: did Curious Labs try to negotiate the price quote from your attorney to fix the EULA, or did you feel that they were giving you a good faith estimate? Along the lines of what I mentioned before perhaps you may not have all of the information about what was communicated to DAZ from others in your company. When the price quote was given to us, we were told that if we did not have you guys do the work then the two engineers who had setup the other characters would be laid off. That seems to contradict what you said about needing to pull people off of other project to do this work.

Larry, I see the benefits of not making our differences everybody elses problems. As you know, these differences have their roots a long ways back . We even mentioned something about it last year during the whole amnesty situation. (see the attached link). But with that being said, I have no problem if any of our discussions and dealings with each other are made completely public. We have nothing to hide. The only problem I do have is when only one side of the fence is painted. When only partial information is given then it may require more information to show the whole picture. Like you, we also will step in to protect our companys reputation.

I do have a message for the community. DAZ is 100% committed to supporting the consumers. We know that it is because of you that we are able to stay in business. We are investing all of our resources to bringing more opportunities and options for you, the customers. We have learned that the harder we work to serve you, the more likely we are to survive these tough economic times. When this means that we need to support Poser we will. If it means creating options that dont require Poser, then we will do that also. But most likely it means that we need to do both. Another thing, There is no one asking for you to pick sides in these issues. You dont have to. You have the luxury of reaping the benefits of the products that any company offers you.

Sincerely,

Dan Farr
President, DAZ Productions

P.S. Can anybody think of a way to make all this a reality TV show? We could all split the proceeds.

That's ok Larry. I figured that would be the case. Pssst.....Just slip it im my mailbox while nobody's lookin'. ;-) ScottA

Sorry, I need to correct a typo in this sentence. "This does automatically mean that we would not continue developing models for Poser customers." Does should say does not. One small typo can really change the meaning of a sentence. Dan

Somebody send a couple of tickets to Dan & Larry for a luxury cruise to the Bahamas, first class and a designated team of ten beautiful female assistants for each one of them for a week of pleasure and negotiations. I bet after that and a couple of beers we will have both companies working together and their products integrated as well as before.

I'm weary after reading yet another of this kind of long-winded threads about this type of no-joy topics, so I'll just cut and paste my response to another of these types of threads. I believe CL will eventually get P5 running as advertized, and we'll all be better off for having it's advanced capabilities. But if it continues to be more work than fun to utilize DAZ (or,out of fairness to DAZ, any other third party) products in P5 without first having to spend a no-fun amount of time tweaking them (with little to no support from the product's vendor - DAZ or otherwise), then my passion for Poser as a fun hobby will surely die off, and CL, DAZ and any other vendor for Poser-related products will lose another customer as my hard-earned dollars go elsewhere and my sparse free time is devoted to things that bring more joy and less grief. Period. Signing off...

Intel Core I7 3090K 4.5 GhZ (overclocked) 12-meg cache CPU, 32 Gig DDR3 memory, GeoForce GTX680 2gig 256 Bit PCI Express 3.0 graphic card, 3 Western Difgital 7200 rpm 1 Tb SATA Hard Drives

This can be resolved. The EULA needs retuning and it must be done now. It all centers on this. All the other garbage will melt away within short order of this happening. Thanks guys for comming to the table. Lets all work together to make each other stronger. Your employees deserve it, your familys deserve it also. This community of artists deserve it. Keep thinking win/win and this will all have been a small road bump. Gentlemen, lets move forward. Who will take the first step? The time for accusations are over. We are living in the here and now. There's no turning back there's only this moment where decisions that shape yours, and everyone elses future, are made. Please, for the sake of all parties, act and act fast. Trust me, you won't regret it. Thank you

These issues haven't stopped me from buying what I like wherever it may be, except P5 and that's due to the EULA and my being a merchant and no other reason. I buy from Daz, rosity, rdna, looking at a couple items at poserpros, etc. I'm a big poser and 3d app spender. I'll pick sides, if I feel it serves a good purpose. Haven't seen a purpose in it yet and so haven't. I'll defend anyone or any company I think is being unjustifiably picked on. (Now, if they deserve what is said about them, my hands are tied. Can't help there.) What started out as legitimate concerns in many places seems to have turned into a gossip ring. I've found myself caught up in it, joining in the speculations and such. Need to better myself there. It can be very exciting and tempting though. It's good to post concerns in order to get more information, but perhaps we all need to think about the repercushions of what we say before we say it and make sure what we are saying has good grounding. Good tip is, if you don't know a point you'd like to make for a fact, state it as a question you'd like clarified. That way, the issue is brought up, your point is made, and you haven't risked misrepresenting anyone.

Excellent Post Dan. I'll call you on Monday. If your significant problem is the EULA, let's eliminate your EULA concerns, and go! Hugs and kisses, Larry

Finally! People talking and behaving like adults! Hooray! As for the rest of us, since it seems we will be informed, lets give both companies a break during these hopefully short negotiations. We can always jump on them again if it doesn't pan out. After all, aren't WE the ones with the money? Dan and Larry, come to Portland to celebrate when you're done. I, of all people, am not the one to find the pretty girls, but boy howdy, do I know where there's good beer.

First of all. Thanks Larry for your partial response to some of the concerns of the vendors Now how about the concerns of the users. (And potential users) People have been put off by the challenge/registration mess. Would it cost you a fortune to go back to the P4 type EULA just in that part? Get rid of that and youve got a sale. All the best.

My earlier comments bear repeating here. "The customer is always right" Damn we're a tough bunch...relentless...but worth it! Thanks again Larry and Dan. Cheers!

Okay, admittedly having no real other concern with this thread, I have always had an issue with that addage, "The customer is always right!" Actually the customer isn't always right, but the customer is always the customer (well, until they leave, at which point they... ahem, nevermind). Aside from the rambling, there is a difference.

Any chance that security thing in P5 could get changed? I gota ask. Someone had to ask. I'm still waiting. Not a word about it. My computer is still a incomplete, temporary, pile of parts. Still can't chance loading P5 on it for fear of using up my 3 installations as this computer-part-pile changes. Maybe I just need to take up sculpting instead and just give up... sigh...

Hey mate, the customer IS always right - if for no other reason than they PAY YOUR WAGES Chuckle I can live with all other aspects of P5 except the company hold the keys to my software - Be honest. Doesn't that at least bother some of you? neurocyber - Sculpting is fun :-) I built a "Box-o-bits" too, and i keep changing it (Hard drives included) So I'm a bit nervious about the limited install thing.

Larry, Again, thank you for the time that youve taken to reply back to me. Although your words certainly go a long way to helping me to believe there may be a chance in renewing my faith, either in whole or in part, in regard to Curious Labs, Egi-sys AG and Poser 5. However, I think that it would be fair of me to say, that my concerns regarding your companies and Poser 5, expand beyond the scope of myself and DSI. They also include concerns for this great Community who purchase your products and who purchase products that support your products and for the vendors and merchants who create those products. I just thought I should let you know that my concerns encompass more than just "Jack D. Kammerer" and happen to reaffirm or echo many of the concerns that the Community has been expressing for a long time. It is very important that you understand that, and realize that these concerns affect everyone who is currently suffering because of the current condition of the Poser 5 release, not just the people who have purchased Poser 5, but for those of us whose business and hobbies revolve around your company and its product. In the spirit of common goals, I will be temporarily holding off from posting my concerns publicly, till such time that weve had sufficient time to discuss those concerns and then inform the Community of the outcome of those discussions, since these discussions will directly affect them as well. With that said, I do not have your e-mail address (only have Steve Coopers) so if you could please provide to me your personal e-mail address and/or contact information either in this thread, site messenger or by sending it to my to e-mail address (jdkammerjr@aol.com), I will send to you my list of concerns and helpful suggestions. Rather than taking up any of your time during the weekend, I will hold off on sending my e-mail off to you till sometime early next week. Again, thank you very much for your willingness to put differences aside enough to work to the benefit of this great Community and hopefully a benefit to Curious Labs, Egi-sys AG and the creators of Poser Content. Sincerely, Jack D. Kammerer

Interesting turn of events. In all my years in these communities,it never ceases to amaze me how the wheel turns. After a while you see the patterns of the energy shifting. An ebb and flow that is as predictable as the tides. The recent Tidal Wave of controversy comes crashing down on the shores of these communities and wreaks havoc on our homes as we scramble to find a sense of order and understanding among the confusion.Sometimes even fighting amongst ourselves. It is disheartening at times to watch it all unfold. Kinda like watching a train wreck in slow motion, and as much as you want to cover your eyes and not look,there is a morbid curiosity that keeps you spreading your fingers and peeking through to see what happens next. But eventually it comes to an end,and subsides,and then the tide rolls back out again,restoring a bit of normalcy for a brief time. It is that knowledge that I take comfort in. The knowing that eventually ,although the landscape has changed, the community will again become that well oiled art machine we all have been a part of. The tides of controversy will no doubt return,but we learn from each one. And take comfort in the knowledge that it will pass. And so the wheel of fortune turns. I feel fortunate that I am lucky enough to be along for the ride ....and be part of the tide. Tom

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

"The customer is always right" is a slang not to be taken literally. It is a saying that means, without the customer, we(business X)don't exist). So in order to keep the customer we must adress his/her needs. Many people don't understand this either, which is why so many new businesses fail in the first year.

Hawkfyr, I agree. That's what I'm shooting for.

I'm sorry it would cost you $10,000 to fix something that should never have been released in its' current form (and of course here I am speaking of the EULA). If that figure was intended to generate sympathy, it went straight over my head. Maybe next time, in addition to more product beta testers, you should have some "normal" vendors read the EULA ahead of time and ask them what they think.

It worked!! It worked!! Somebody send the violins, the harp, the romantic music!!! A bottle of champagne!!! And the Steffy Stax lookalike oriental massage specialists: very important!!!

I take it you had good luck so far with the current patch? So far so good for me. I did notice a cropping size difference between the material room window and the pose window. Easily fixed.

Sorry Lapis, haven't tried the patch yet. My Poser 5 worked right out of the box. I installed the first patch but haven't installed the second yet. I just receieved my brand new system but I'm still configuring it. I was just being silly cause I have a good feeling about the way Larry and Dan have responded to this thread. The violin, music, Steffys etc. is for that Bahama cruise I was talking about for Dan & Larry on a previous post.

The violin, music, Steffys etc. is for that Bahama cruise I was talking about for Dan & Larry on a previous post. and, poor lil me...i may have to go to trinidad, in a week or so....business...but, i would hate to miss any of this stuff. well, maybe i will run into dan and larry, and they can bend my ear.

Larry, Let's not make this too easy, I think we should hold out for the Cruise:) We'll talk Monday. Dan Farr

Dan, Larry, you guys are going to pull this off aren't you? Thanks in advance.

Biy oih boy if they can work something out and CL can cahnge that EULA even I would put up with the bugs. Like mentioned above - it's the EULA that stops me from buying the copies I was planning on.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

That's exactly why I keep on with these posts. Its just to important to let it slip away. We are very close here.

I will second that, LSM. There have been several issues sitting by the wayside since pre-release times that, if addressed, will make P5 more attractive to some of those who have held out purchasing P5 up to this point. I would also like to reiterate that it would be advantageous if the CD production code was updated and that future commercially released CD versions of P5 already came with the patched code applied; making it a "one stop installation". I would hope CL would notify the community "Yay or Nay" if this is possible. If "Yay", then a simple notification by CL when these "patched" versions are shipping would be beneficial.

To be fair and honest, these issues have been in existence since pre-release and, to date, have recieved little attention to this point other than "we will look into it". I sincerely hope that CL is getting to the point where they can dedicate more resources to the EULA and other issues, but I too feel that it will take some time to fully iron out and a compromise is reached. I hope the EULA negotiations will not be limited to closed dialog between CL and DAZ, but open to the rest of the community who have an interest in the EULA and the other issues as well. With that said, I want to commend CL and DAZ for taking the first steps toward a resolution that will impact the community at large.

Larry, if CL were approached by users who wanted to use Poser for crime scene work (technically a violation of the EULA as it could be considered to depict an illegal act") would CL be willing to send a notarized waiver to that person to allow them to do so? Same thing with a store like DAZ, 3D Commune or even a small store or various merchants? Because if CL was willing to send me a waiver stating that I had the right to create distributable content and such (very specifically written out - not an over generalized statement that wouyld allow theft mind you) I would be willing to buy my copies of P5. The waiver would also have to include redistributing of these items at 3-D Arena. After all it's only a matter of putting in writing (and notarizing) a confirmation of what CL has been saying online so it shouldn't be an issue.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

The EULA is also the biggest reason I keep on these threads. I want to play with P5. I really do. It may not be up to what I hoped for, but it still looks like fun. I don't dare until this EULA issue has a resolvement.

"Because if CL was willing to send me a waiver stating that I had the right to create distributable content and such (very specifically written out - not an over generalized statement that wouyld allow theft mind you) I would be willing to buy my copies of P5. The waiver would also have to include redistributing of these items at 3-D Arena." In conversations with CL I was specifically told that they were willing to work with individual users and vendors to make sure they had the documentation they needed to feel safe in what they were doing (as long as it was legal of course:) ) So I think if you contact CL you will be pleasantly surprised. This is of course EXACTLY the sort of response that was the final compromise I got from my concern over Daz's EULA. That the license itself had to be worded as strongly as it was but that users and vendors with concerns should contact them for clarification and some safety documentation if we felt we needed it for specific situations.

My only "issue" with individual waivers, etc, is that they only apply to those who agreed to them. Plus, if this course it taken, it may actually involve more work on CLs' part which they could be using for developmental and other practical business purposes by having to "renegotiate" the terms on a case-by-case basis. With the involvement of those affected, it should be possible to come up with a suitable compromise that would suit the Poser users at large, while still protecting CL, content providers, vendors, hobbyists, etc. Heck, if CL is agreeable, I would be willing to spend some of my time doing the research and providing any assistance I can to reach a common ground. Granted, IANAL, but at least having a basic outline of the applicable laws, concerns, verbiage, etc, should make the whole process a lot easier for everyone involved.

{That the license itself had to be worded as strongly as it was} IANAL either (I know everyone's tired of hearing that. LOL), but I like to think I'm fairly logical and that statement just doesn't make sense. I realize that the law isn't always logical, but... CL has stated that they needed to beef up the EULA most specifically to protect themselves in foreign courts because the P4 EULA didn't clearly define ownership. Tell me how the P5 EULA does that? As has been pointed out many times by many different people, the P5 EULA directly contradicts itself in a least 3 places regarding content distribution/copyrights. It doesn't clearly define anything. That's what makes a lot of 3rd party content producers nervous and it SHOULD make CL nervous, too. If they ever have to go to court, they run the risk that the court will either throw the EULA out because of the ambiguity or choose to interpret it on the side that doesn't uphold their rights. Fixing it is a much to their benefit as it is to ours. What can and should be negotiated separately, are usage grants to CL's copyrights. That's basically what an agreement to allow cr2 distribution is. They are generally allowing use of their copyrighted material because they figure that people need to have the obj and the program to use cr2s. DAZ does it for Vicki (1, not 2) because they figure you need the original obj to use the cr2. These are exceptions specifically granted to copyrights. CL and DAZ have done it generally in the past on these matters rather than on a case by case basis. But they could grants other permissions to specific individuals if they so choose. None of those agreements changes their EULA or their copyrights. And granting something extra to an individual does not automatically grant it to everyone.

Exactly Diane! Cyberstretch - frankly it doesn't really matter to me if the waiver only applies to those who request it, it's a common business practice. It isn't that time consuming - they would create a form waiver and they could have them notarized en masse for those who actually request them. Frankly, I don't personally care about any of your "issues" on the matter of a waiver, I care about my rights (as should every user of P5 or any software) and despite those who would take CL at face value - I know better (law school does that to a person - even when you don't finish one learns the fundmentals of protection) than to assume that I will be exempt when a company tells me they "don't intend that" because down the road what they "intend" may no longer matter or even apply. I realize it seems cold/rude or whatever to say that I don't care about your "issues" in this matter, but the truth is that should CL decide to enforce their EULA will you pay the legal fees for myself or my company? I have no doubts as to the courts throwing a major portion of the EULA out; it's conflicting and vague - both of which contradict contractual law, but fighting that takes time and money and would need to be done in CL's home state, and in 5 years who's to say that I'll have either - sh*t happens. Furthermore a form "waiver" does fall under "other practical business purposes" after all there are more than a few who are holding off their purchase due to the EULA (DAZ as well). To have a default waiver that they could easily send out where applicable would be a smart business move to encourage sales and ease the minds of those concerned. Furthermore it would go a long way towards healing the negative perceptions created by the EULA and would be a stand in very well while CL works on revising the EULA (if indeed they are actually doing that). I can tolerate buggy software (to a point)- but I can not/will not risk the legal ramifications should CL decide to follow through on the restrictions they enacted with that EULA, or risk that should Poser transfer to a different company that that company wouldn't follow through on what CL started.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

ScottA, I've been rather busy with personal matters so just read your reply. >You prefer to see it a certain way. And that's ok with me. >But I prefer to keep analyzing the new data that keeps coming in. Thanks but it is not really that I prefer to see things differently. I readily admit that P5's EULA and copy protection annoy me no end and prevented my purchase of P5. Further, my experience with DAZ has been sufficiently positive that I view them favourably. But neither of these facts colour my opinion of the current situation. That is based solely upon actual statements I have read on the forums. Although I also have read the many opinions I treat those only as opinions, not as data. (eg. 'There are far more people here saying that DAZ was the victim And CL was the villian. Thus the statement: "Just how innocent is DAZ in all of this?".' I agree but treat such statements as opinion, not fact.) Your speculations may be correct. I say only that I have yet to read anything which could lead me to a similar conclusion. In other words... insufficient data. Now it is time for me to catch up on things- starting with the rest of this thread. New data maybe? - Jack

Many companies seem to be able to create a generic EULA that covers all bases at once, thereby eliminating the need to generate individual "form waivers" and supplying them to individual users. There is nothing that states that CL cannot do both, either. There are many possible solutions and a compromise or several of them may suit everyones' best interests. The current EULA definitely needs revisioning, I think everyone can agree to that. So, since time and money will be spent on that endeavor, all I am suggesting is that an "all encompassing" EULA is adopted and any "further clarifications" could still be made by a waiver, statement, notarized letter; whatever legal documentation and/or terms you care to use to describe it. It seems to me that trying to do "one offs" would be more time and resource consuming than a total, legal, legit rewrite of the existing EULA with all parties interests covered. I think our concerns are the same, just our proposed solutions differ. Either or neither of us may be completely right, but at least providing several viable options presents a quicker means to arriving at an applicable solution.

I think we're all basically on the same page too. I hope we hear from the players soon. Its now Moday evening.

::is still waiting and hoping that Larry sends his contact data... sure would be nice to resolve this::

Larry Weinberg- First, I say THANK YOU for Poser in all its versions. And I believe y'all are working hard and sincerely doing the best you know how to balance your interests with other developers' interests, ultimately all of which will give customers' more available stuff at prices people will hopefully want to buy it :-) - - - - - - - - - - But you say: "We'd like to see compatible formats and complementary features in all models and applications produced by both companies -- and everyone else." Then why does your EULA say that your file FORMATS are proprietary? That plus other language says to me as a software writer that I'd better not try writing a software module that works with your file formats and competes with a capability in your program, or you could sue me for violation of the EULA. Especially if someday such a module might work in a competitor's program. File FORMATS should be public domain. Even Microsoft is offering .NET APIs and formats to the community. As it stands, your Poser5 EULA scares the sh*t out of me. NOTE: I'm not a total novice in reading such stuff. I've seen several intensely detailed legal contracts over years employed at both Electronic Arts and Apple Computer, neither of which are exactly known for being legally simple to deal with. Curious Labs isn't in the same league as the big companies I mention. You don't have the clout to get everyone you are going to need on board, as that contract stands. It needs to change dramatically. Please understand, I don't mean to be negative. I am just trying to accurately express the strong negative reaction, as a long-time software writer, that your EULA brought up in me as it is written. Here's hoping that you successfully modify the EULA to match your stated intentions! -- ToolmakerSteve

LarryW - I have one other comment I'd like to publicly express. Hopefully I can do this in a way that won't make you defensive. If I fail, then I apologize, and I should have sent this message privately. Let's see if I can say this gently: Do you get, deep in your bones, that your company has made a mistake? That the discontent and uncertainty and hesitation to buy Poser5 within the community of Poser users has already cost Curious Labs far more than any hypothetical risk to Intellectual Property ever was going to cost? That regardless of the rightness or wrongness of each decision the end result is that EGISYS + Curious Labs released Poser5 with three strikes against it: #1* A shocking number of serious bugs. Though I begged to receive my pre-ordered copy when Airborne Express misplaced mine for seven days, and am working on an add-on project such that I am very glad I received it, within the first hour of receiving the product and trying it out, my overwhelming thought was "what were they thinking?". #2* A stringent and trouble-prone registration system. As a software developer, I thank you: better that you take the arrows in your back than I ;-) I would use such a scheme if I dared. When people talk about warez, and how there is probably already a crack out - irrelevant. The real issue is the basic human instinct that makes it easy to rationalize not paying for something unless you have to. The person who might otherwise make a copy or two for friends, who then might give away copies ... sometimes snowballs to many copies in use per legit copy - that's who this discourages, not the hard-core pirates. To users - by all means bitch and moan about the imperfections in schemes like this, but some scheme or another is going to prevail. Complain until all your issues have been successfully addressed. I'm betting on one of the universal hardware key solutions, like the one that I believe is offered by Poser5's security vendor. Maybe what is needed is a central company to hold keys, that could provide a "back-up source of registration updates" so that there wouldn't be total dependence on the original software vendor. #3* An alarmingly tight EULA. I've decided to live with it, but I am glad others have decided not to be passive about it. I will support Poser5, and take my legal chances, but I must remain free to support any alternatives that come along! - - - - - This is how it looks even to someone who is rooting for you to succeed! These three genuine topics of concern add up to serious risk. I believe y'all are working hard, and genuinely wish to alleviate community concerns. Best of luck! -- ToolmakerSteve P.S. Poser5 SR2beta is looking promising. Tell everyone involved not to give up hope - it's getting there and will have been worth the journey :)

Not trying to be demeaning, but trying to understand a seemingly contradictory statement. "#2* A stringent and trouble-prone registration system." "I would use such a scheme if I dared." As a software developer yourself, and your obvious opinion that some form of protection is needed, why do you state that you have not used such a system if it is overly effective and beneficial? Again, I do not think that anyone desires that CL, or any software developer, stops trying to protect their investments. However, in light of the financial struggles that have been alluded to, and the apparent ease of circumventing such "protection schemes", is it not wise to wait until "some scheme or another is going to prevail"? Personally, I think the competence of the "Software Liberators" is greatly underestimated. Any technological advances that are available to generate some form of protection are also going to be available for those who wish to circumvent it. The fight to protect software has raged on since software was first released. Every attempt thus far has been circumvented in one way or another. I do not foresee any universal solution in sight. I find it hard to believe that any system that is developed will ever sufficiently deter others from finding ways around it. That is not to say that developers should stop trying, there is a market for such protection, just that until a successful scheme is derived any attempt to use those schemes ends up being futile. "The person who might otherwise make a copy or two for friends, who then might give away copies ... sometimes snowballs to many copies in use per legit copy - that's who this discourages, not the hard-core pirates." There is nothing that is stopping people from repackaging the "cracked/hacked" version and distributing it as well. Therefore, the insinuated effectiveness of the protection scheme is a false sense of security, IMHO. If someone was willing to give away "free" copies based off their "legit" copy, they are equally as likely to distribute the cracked/hacked version as well. I really do feel for those whose livelihoods and IP are adversely effected by criminal activities. But, logically, I do not see where any "protection scheme" at this stage of the game is a beneficial addition if, with a little help, they can be easily circumvented.

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: The Tailor and MIMIC: DAZ can we ever expect Poser 5 compatibility?