Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5434

One thing to remember, they are only being banned from the merchants forum, not the entire site from what I understand. Still a shame.

Well let me see if I understand this, the Merchant Forum is for those merchants that sell their work here, correct? If this is the case, I really see no problem. I would assume that this forum was created so that merchants that do their business here would have a place to gather to discuss their work and other information, also if this is the case, why would anyone else want to be involved in this forum that really has no business with it? Sharen PS: if I am incorrect with my assumtion, please let me understand what the problem is....I read your post link above and just don't see the problem.

They aren't banned from selling (making money) here. They just can't access the merchants forum. Not an issue at all. The merchants forum is not an important place to go anyway unless you want to discuss the MP design. Competing brokers have no business in there in the first place. And should consider themselves lucky they can host items here at all. It's like McDonalds selling Whoppers for Burger King. But Burger King being upset because they aren't allowed into staff meetings. Sure I still make money here. But I wanna also be in charge and speak my mind WHILE I'm also a competitor. I WANT A GOLDEN GOOSE NOW DADDY! NOW! You people get upset over the dumbest things. When are you going to grow up? ScottA

I have spent $1157.67 at Rosity since February 2002. The buck stops here. Ciao and good luck. JDexter

Scott, why would someone be upset about this? I just don't understand why this was posted at all? Sharen

yes i agree i have spenjt money here not alot mind but i as a merchant cannot beleive they would do this as its petty and very childish its ok when they are getting money from us merchants and aslso i wont be sellign here any more as they have to many merchants and yer stuff gets push so far back in time it is unreal any way cheers dolly

I'm going to try and explain just a bit without stepping on any toes. Keep in mind that I do not work for renderosity, I'm just a merchant here. The merchants forum was more than just a place to talk about improvments to the Marketplace. If there was an issue with a product or an overall question that the answer could benefit all merchants this was the place to post it. If there were problems with the store such as an items going missing, renderosity uses this forum to contact the artist or artists in a general fashion. It was also a place to look for another merchant to assist and team up with in order to put out a package. This could be considered not a renderosity forum, but rather a mervchants forum. One for merchants to discuss developments behind the scenes. This forum was given under the merchants agreement that every merchant has to sign. It has now been retroactivly taken away. Many of the merchants now banned from this forum were some of the ones that had the most to contribute. This not only removes thier voice but also hamrs the rest of the merchant community here at renderosity. Granted we can go elsewhere for this same info, but where does that leave the merchant forum here? I can only post this message and can't really post the rules given as that could be considered against the rules and henceforth cause myself to be banned from not only the forum but also the site.

Lol Sharen. I wish everyone was as level headed as you. You wouldn't believe the things my monitor has seen over the years here. People are emotional illogical beings. They freak out over the grass growing in the wrong direction. But if you can keep them from killing eachother and focused on one thing. They do manage to create some amazing stuff. :-) ScottA

Actually Scott your analogy is wrong. This is like owning a chain store in the mall and not being invited to tenets meetings because your store is located in other malls that you happen to have an interest in. Even if you happen to own stock in those other malls you still have a vested interest in makeing this mall work. If the owners here are worried about secret stuff getting out they should have opened another forum. The merchants forum was a place for merchants to get together to discuss things of interest, help each other out, etc.

They aren't banned from selling (making money) here. They just can't access the merchants forum. Not an issue at all. It is an issue. To me, as a merchant, the Merchants forum is the most important forum here. It's the one I check first every morning when I log in. It is NOT about the MarketPlace design. It's about everything that has to do with being a merchant. It is most definitely an issue. Especially since when we became merchants we were given certain benefits. You can't just change your mind and take that away. That's breaking the contract.

I agree Eowyn. Things are going to be changing here. Merchant X creates models and also owns another site with a store. This person now no longer has access to the merchant features which include the guidlines for remaining a merchant. This person now leaves due to the change. Merchant Y creates textures for merchant X's products. This merchant will now have to leave and follow merchant X in order to keep thier sales. It is that or find another merchant to partner with that is here at rosity. Now sure how far this will change things, but it seems to be heading towards making rosity a gated merchant community. Some people like it, some don't.

Sharen and Mike, the renderosity merchant forum is where people who sell stuff in the renderosity store can get help from each other and from store admins. Scott, if having a special forum for a specific topic is not important then why are forums separated by topic at all? So disassemble all the forums and see what you get. And so if you are barred from one of the topic forums that happens to be pertinent to your activities, is that a dumb thing to be upset about?

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

Hi IB.

Sharen it's posted here more than likely because it affects users as well, this will change what is offered to them here, merchants are closing their stores - not all of them are owners/admins of competing sites either. They are leaving because they feel 'rosity has betrayed their trust and the agreement that they had with merchant's. As a merchant here and a competitor I may also be banned from the forum in question. So when that happens how will I know of site policy changes (like the warehouse and the merchants contests) that affect merchants? Yes I own 3-D Arena, but when I am in the merchant's forum my concerns are for my products that are here, at this site, and how to best market them or present them here. I don't need ideas from here to run my site - and frankly there is nothing in the merchant's forum that would assist a competitive site anyhow (nor should there be - hat kind of business belongs in an admin forum). Furthermore, as you can see from the posts at Poser Pros on this - this is not just for "competing" merchants either - they will be banning those who they feel are disruptive to the merchant's forum, implying "agree with all changes or you're out".

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Congrats to Renderosity....if coming off as paranoid, untrustworthy, and self-destructive was what you wanted....you succeeded. :o

I haven't gone over to see what was said in the discussion today yet, but the way I understood what I read yesterday in the Merchants forum is that any merchant here, who has a vested interest in a competing site would be banned from the merchant forum but still allowed to sell here.

Now my problem with this is thus: Those who will be affected by this the most are the ones who helped make Renderosity what it is today. They don't deserve such a slap in the face. What is the point in this site making money off their products yet banning them from the forum? Tim mentioned competing sites copying Renderosity's features. Got news for you, you don't need access to the Merchants forum for that to happen. All they're doing is losing customers and creating bad feelings where they don't need to. It's all completely unnecessary.
There's nothing wrong with a little competition. Any business who tries to keep a hold on it's top spot will only choke the life out of itself.

Look at what Mehndi said in a post above and how much she's made here at Renderosity. Then figure the percentage that went to Renderosity and look at the recent turn of events.

It's a slap in the face no matter how you do the math.

...... Kendra

Oh btw Sharen, they have already banned Mehndi of PoserPros from accessing the merchant's forum (within less than 7 hours of making their announcement). The implication is that only sites that are "partners" with 'rosity/bondware will be allowed to have continued access for their admins/owners and staff. So far the only site they have stated that has this exemption is RDNA as Tim has stated they are partners with them. Certain merchants will also be exempt (a few they have already mentioned) - probably based on their sales here. So even considering that access for "partners" is a credible business move - they turned around and showed it would not be applied evenly across the board but on a case by case basis.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

By the way, nice move Tim. You just sent this sites best sellers off to other sites. Good business move.

...... Kendra

Another important point I feel might have been overlooked in dismissing us as childish/whatever in this case, is that the Merchants' Forum is the only way to know about many policies that affect us prior to their implementation. Two good examples would be the warehouse. Had this policy been enacted [i]prior[/i] to the warehouse implementation, we would have over 150 products removed from the store with those Merchants given to no recourse except to sit idly by, watching as their livelihood slipped off. Had it been enacted prior to the inactive merchants debate, this site would likely have been saddled with an unworkable, short-sighted policy which would have disenfranchised over a hundred merchants into walking out permanently. You see, it was those "competitors" in that instance who worked with Clint and Jeff to find a positive direction which has greatly enhanced some aspects of the site look, the marketplace, and the forums, without disenfranchising others. You see, Scott, as Merchants, Mehndi, LadySilverMage, Ironbear, et. al. have a vested interest in seeing this marketplace succeed, regardless of the roles they play elsewhere in cyberspace. To imply that they are using access to the Merchant's Forum to somehow gain market advantages on this site is not only ridiculous, but unfounded and malicious. So pardon me if I'm not willing to sit back and let the 600 lb. Gorilla pretend to be a victim. Paul

Ironbear I do agree that the merchant is not important, But it's first the merchant forum than it's something else. I'll feel that a merchant is a merchant is a merchant. Do not have second class merchant. So if they don't fix it now I'm going to take my products and the $1800.00+ that I've spent this year and go else where. I sorry right is right and this is wrong.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

See what I mean Sharen? :-)

How's the sand down there Scott?

...... Kendra

You know, as of this post I'm going to stop monitering this thread. I see it going where it doesn't need to be.

Okay, I have read and reread these posts, and as a member of Renderosity (not a merchant here) but a memeber, what I see is this, 1.Merchants of only Renderosity are allowed into the RENDEROSITY MERCHANTS FORUM. 2.Merchants of Renderosity and that sell in other places will not be allowed into the RENDEROSITY MERCHANTS FORUM. 3.Merchants that sell here at Renderosity and other places feel rejected because they feel as a merchant exchanging ideas are important and merging together at one forum is a good place to do this. (you see I am a little at a loss because I never went to this forum) we are merchants, we do not communicate with anyone except our customers to see what we should do as merchants to help serve them. If I have this backwards I do appologize but if I don't, I feel that whatever and whomever started this forum, did so for reasons that may not apply for today. The Marketplace here is so large and has such wonderful work by many different artists, I don't see that they are stopping any of the selling, they are just restricting one forum to people who are specific to Renderosity. I really just don't know that this is bad. If you want to have a place to discuss marketing or what people want, or how to sell things, can't we all meet in a mutual area, this is the internet, can't we communicate via email, can't we communicate via the telephone.....it just seems like such a shame to jump all over this, when it is just one forum we are talking about. Again, I am not a merchant here and maybe I don't see the ramifications, but we are merchants so I am trying to understand it because I am a memeber here. I do applolgize if my comments have offended anyone for my lack of information and first hand experience. Sharen

Sharon, I am not a merchant, but after following the threads and making my decision, this is how I read it: Merchants who had access to the Merchant Forums no longer do. This is not a new forum that was set up for exclusive brokers of Rosity, it was set up for anyone who sold anything through the market place. By reading the posts, a one-sided decision was made (and implemented) disregarding all the benefits and status of the current merchants who also now have sites of their own. 3dWizard's analogy sounds exactly what I was thinking about. But as a customer of this site, I see the move being detrimental to the continued quality and offerings available here so I will now put my money into other sites in hopes of shoring up their business so that I can continue to get quality items. JDexter

Sharen, You are not totally correct above. Here is my take. Any merchant here has access to that forum, even those who sell elsewhere. However those who own or have a major interest in other broker sites will be excluded from just that forum. Also if a merchant is disruptive they can be banned. Basicly this is their site and they can do what every they want. But, I hope you see why I gave the mall analogy above. If they wanted to talk about site improvements away from prying eyes they could have done it elsewhere. The merchant forum was originally for the benefit of all the merchants here wither you had one product or fifty. It was the first place merchants could go and exchange ideas with each other, solicit feedback on new product, etc. There was a lot of sharing between the merchants int he forum and I did not see merchants ripping each other off. I am not sure what casued this move. For me it is a lot more than just this. This is just the last straw for me. I have been through both admin changes and number of other battles here. But the attitude demonstrated by the owners of this site is just to much.

Okay, I think I understand better now the3dwizard and thank you, but here is my question......WHY the change, something must have happened? Sharen

i've been thinking more on this banning. I think all merchants and customer need to ban renderosity for a week No posting to forum or gallaries or purchases or upload new product or free stuff. Nothing at all. Let see if they hear us now

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

For me this is a matter of principle. The trust relationship is being degraded between the upper admin and the merchants. I do not have products elsewhere nor do I own my own brokerage. But where is R'osity without those merchants who do and have helped build this business? These other merchants and artists ARE NOT my competitors. They are my friends and family. If you are going to make them eat in the doghouse because of other affiliations (whilst their money is still used to support this business) then I must say I'm going out to eat in the doghouse with them. It's an illogical and unethical move that wreaks of discrimination and other, possible, underlying agendas. Geeez, ok we'll take your money but you can't sit with us. Take a seat on the back of the bus, buddy but you still have to pay the same fare. Sound familiar? ---Kei

Sharen, My guess is some handshake between R'osity and CL and Content Paranoids. ;) ---Kei

Sharen, The only thing that I can think of is they thought one of the other sites was using knowledge from postings in the forum about future store enhancements to make improvements to there site. They have not said however and this is only my speculation.

Sharen - What they are doing is telling certain merchants that they can continue to sell their products here but they are locking the door to the one forum where decisions are discussed that directly affect them and their products. The warehouse for example. This was discussed long before it was implemented. Had certain merchants here been banned from that decision they would not have known: a) what the warehouse meant to their product b) when it was to be implemented c) how to opt in or out d) the percentage reduction of their product e) WHEN a product is to go to the warehouse Another discussion affected status based on how many days between uploads, banner ad rotation, etc. If Renderosity is to take 40 - 50% of someone's product they have a responsibility to keep people in the loop w/regard to information affecting their product. The ridiculous argument of other sites stealing ideas is so wrong it's almost funny. The free section and it's notice of whether a download is for personal or commercial use is designed after 3D Arena. And it's here because members requested it. It's just wrong all the way around. And Tim's responses have been well below professional, in my opinion. He's not initiating a discussion, he's stating what will happen and not giving those affected a voice by banning them right away and insulting them on the way out. I'm angry and my responses will be affected by this anger. I understand protecting a product. But those who are getting shoved out the door are the ones who helped make this comunity what it is. I'm also torn. I enjoy this community for the most part, at least when people, including admins and mods, behave like adults. I have two products in the store and their acceptance was a huge boost to my self esteem w/regard to what I'd like to do in this medium. Even someone with few sales like me, needs the merchant forum to stay informed. It's not right and it won't be a good business decision.

...... Kendra

Hmmmm, well, I am at a loss of words. This is obviously a very personal feeling too many. Seeing I am not a merchant here, it is a little harder for me to see the full story. I do of course see and understand comments that have been made here, on both sides. Plus the comments were very well stated. I am sure, if all who are personally involved, examine and present their cases, there can be a happy ending to this.....then again maybe not, but it isn't for lack of trying. Thank you for the information and patience in presenting this to me. As a member I am very interested in the growth of Renderosity and it's members. Sharen

I think some people have misunderstood that this does NOT affect any merchant that sells products here and somewhere else. It only affects merchants that own or operate sites that broker items for other people. There is a BIG difference. The merchant forum is a private place for merchants to build relationships, collaborate on work, talk about site improvements, discuss policies that need to be created or revised and get info on our community and market surveys. Merchants that own or operate websites that compete directly (by brokering) with Renderosity get a huge benefit from the private forum by not having to invest time & money into community research & statistical date. There have been a few times where private merchant discussions have been made public by a competitor (or those who support them) which is a violation of the merchant agreement. Then, the discussions are twisted into something theyre not just to make another site appear better. Many of times, the discussions are about things that arent even policies yetonly a what if, and the merchants help us work through the issues. Renderosity continually strives to make improvements for the good of everyone whos a part of Renderosity, and I think its sad that some are blind to it.

 

JenyK said: "I think some people have misunderstood that this does NOT affect any merchant that sells products here and somewhere else." I am sorry, I think it does. I think it is trying to force vendors into deciding to become exclusive and restrict trade. Whether this was done intentially, or not, remains to be seening. Als your statement: "Merchants that own or operate websites that compete directly (by brokering) with Renderosity get a huge benefit from the private forum by not having to invest time & money into community research & statistical date." Renderosity also benefits, as do the Vendors, from their involvement since they can also lend ideas and provide their own statistics with regard to things they've already tried to save Renderosity from going through the same hardships. I can mention several times where DSI has contacted Renderosity Merchant staff to inform them of "individuals" who have placed fraudulant credit card purchases so that they could keep an eye out and protect their merchants from such individuals as well. If that isn't providing a benefit to Renderosity, then what is? I will be making my own formal statement about this shortly. But you are wrong JenyK, the stores should work together to improve features for both the Merchants who sell in those stores and for the Community that shops in them. My statement soon in coming, Jack D. Kammerer DSI Representive

oh, I forgot to mention that merchant's are NOT banned...just another example of great work from the "Spin Doctors"

 

JenyK... unless Banned has taken a new definition in the last twenty-four hours, then.. again, sorry... you are wrong. Restricting access to an area by ejection means being banned from that area. Sorry, but who is really trying to "Spin Doctor" this? Jack

Was that a "formal statement" Jack? ;-) ScottA

Nope :o) Jack

One of the main persons this affects helped to build this site. I think it's sad that some are blind to that.

...... Kendra

Kendra said: "One of the main persons this affects helped to build this site. I think it's sad that some are blind to that." ::shrugs and smiles at Kendra:: If they are like me, dear, then they'll unfortunately have to grow and used to it. :o) Jack (and no this is not my statement yet)

I quit goodbye

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

Now... I have made my statement... :o) Jack

More than one of the main persons, Kendra. I was involved in building the store here when it was first set up under Jack D Kammerer's management. Mehndi also helped in that. As a partner in DSI with Jack and Ed Arseneault, we were responsible for taking this site from a little over 2,000 members to over 50,000. WE are the ones that started most of the innovations you still see on this site. WE worked with Roy Riggs (fur) to get the software working beyond basic Bondware. This site's very foundation was built on our hard work and ideas. After our services were "no longer required", Renderosity continued to make improvements. I will grant them that. Many of those improvements were built on Russell's work. And Mehndi worked in the store to make many further innovations as well. I won't pretend that things have always been smooth between Renderosity and myself. I am sure Mehndi would concede the same thing. But, I have sold my products here in good faith. I have participated in the merchant's forum in good faith. Yes, I have vehemently disagreed with some of the policies they have instituted recently. But I have not "bashed" Renderosity in those disagreements. I have pointed out logical reasons for those disagreements. Reasons why I didn't feel they were good for the merchants here, mainly because they usually went on the premise that Renderosity is the only store that matters. I've seen no big secrets discussed in the merchants forum. Nor have I gleaned any information from there that I couldn't get elsewhere. And more than likely BEFORE it was discussed there. Sorry, but there ARE no secrets in this community. I suppose the powers that be think that by disagreeing with their policies I am trying to disrupt the Marketplace for my own agenda. Truthfully, if that was the case, I would have just kept my mouth shut and let them institute one silly policy after another. That would have helped my business elsewhere. But, since the policies of the marketplace affect my business of selling in the merketplace I couldn't in good faith do that. Renderotica and Animotions have NEVER told vendors where they can sell. We have NEVER restricted merchants based on their other affiliations. We have NEVER restricted who could promote their sites/products on our sites. And we don't plan to do so. That would not be in our best interest or the community's. The more restrictive Renderosity becomes and the more they try to be or act like the only store in the community, the more this community will be hurt. Monopolies do not care about their customers. They don't have to. My feeling is that this is just the first step in a long line of restrictive merchant policies. Especially since they have now extended the recent policy to include anyone who "doesn't support the purpose of the merchants forum". The implication is, disagree with anything and you will be blacklisted. We all need to be concerned about this. Members and merchants alike. And we all need to work together to prevent this from happening. Thanks, Diane Thure Griffith DTHUREGRIF@aol.com www.animotions.com Create the adventure! www.renderotica.com Serving the adult graphics community.

I wrote all the FAQ's for the Poser forum and the Poser technical forum. I created the Poser forum backroom from scratch. JeffH and I stood together and rebuilt this place after Willow left us and took everyone with her. And we alone built the membership back up from hundreds to thousands. This place would be nothing without me. And Tim never even tried to stop me from quitting! He is the spawn of satan! ScottA-- The 121st person who single handedly saved Renderosity from disappearing. ;-)

Scott, I never said nobody else did anything here. And I don't claim to be the sole reason for its being. Just trying to make it clear that that some of the very people they are now excluding were instrumental in getting this site to where it is today. :-P

{{{{Well let me see if I understand this, the Merchant Forum is for those merchants that sell their work here, correct? If this is the case, I really see no problem. I would assume that this forum was created so that merchants that do their business here would have a place to gather to discuss their work and other information, also if this is the case, why would anyone else want to be involved in this forum that really has no business with it? Sharen PS: if I am incorrect with my assumtion, please let me understand what the problem is....I read your post link above and just don't see the problem. }}}}} Sharen, I have $20627.40 worth of "business" being in that forum. That is how much I have sold in my time here as a merchant now in the MANY years I have been a merchant and not once pulled my products out, and continued to add new products over the years. It appears this was to target me, to get me out of there, get my products out of there, merely because I also happen to own PoserPros. Today, I am declared enemy of the state and bannished to the Gulag Archipelago for the heinous crime of starting my own site... tomorrow it will be you or someone else. Do not sit complacently on this matter thinking there is just cause or reason somewhere in it all. I am not in any way disruptive to that forum. I am a merchant in good standing. I do my best to help other merchants when I have time. I teach what I know to others in there. I collaborate with other artists here to give them a leg up on getting "started" when they are newbies. I behave myself with dignity and do not curse and scream and rant and rave on a day to day basis like many in there do. I do not speak rudely to the staff. My only crime is that I own PoserPros.

Medhndi and that is why I as just a small merchant have close my store and delete all my stuff for this ^&*^% hole. So this is my late posting here too See at PoserPros and others thebert

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

{{{{ScottA: They aren't banned from selling (making money) here. They just can't access the merchants forum. Not an issue at all.}}}} Good grief Scott! Of course it matters. Without access to the merchants forum I have no voice in matters that affect my products, no "vote" as it were in important matters that more and more keep being brought forward that directly affect my very ability to make money. Maybe we should take away your citizenship to this country, and whilst we are at it also take away your ownership of your business you are so proud of in real life, and then tell you you should not mind since you can go on working there just like you do now, you merely cannot vote in elections in this country, nor actually take part in ownership decisions that affect the business you helped build. Would that matter to you?

You're looking at this from an emotional point of view Liz. Tim isn't trying to punish you for not behaving properly. Tim isn't punishing you for having a store of your own. He's just trying keep the competition at a reasonable distance, while still cooperating with them as much as possible. He should have done that a Looooong time ago. Nobody gives direct competition an all access pass to their secret places where they talk about their inner workings. But you had one for several months now. That's stupid and dangerous from a business point of view. When you started your own site and store. You gave up the right to have a say in how Renderosity does things. Even if you sell things there yourself. I personally would have made a point in discussing that with you the minute you opened up shop. I would not continue to sell your products unless we talked about certain rules first. And make sure we agreed upon them. That leads us to the real problem: The folks who own this place are nice folks. But don't know enough about business to think ahead. Anticipate the potential problems. And take action BEFORE problems begin. They stumble along. And make mistakes. So we end up in these emotion fests where everyone gets crazy. Because business wasn't handled properly in the first place. Then they try to fix it later. When It's too late. And we have running and screaming. I got tired of explaining how to run a business to them. They weren't listening to me. And I was getting pissed at them myself. So rather than lose thier friendships. I quit before I got to the point where they were no longer my friends anymore. I am friends with the Admins. here. But I will not work with them because of that. Bad business. Sure I'll go along with that. Personal vendetta....No way. I don't buy that one. ScottA

I think that's the longest message I've ever typed. ;-)

Yep Scott it is the longest post I've seen you make :o)

Scott, I agree with you that this isn't a personal vendetta. I might even agree with you about rosity not sharing their business with a competitor if there ever was anything really secret that went on in the merchant's forum. I CERTAINLY agree with you about the bad business decisions. I had my own brokerage LONG before I put my merchandise in the marketplace. Nothing was said when I joined. Only now is anything being said. Private site business shouldn't be discussed in the merchant forum anyway. That's just stupid. However, you are saying that because I also own a brokerage I should have no say in policies that affect my business here? And you expect me to be willing to still sell here? Would you? You know. Renderosity just might have gained some benefits from the competition from having us included in the merchant's forum. I tried to make my posts based on my experience as a store owner. How does that hurt rosity? Granted, I was generally posting about some new nonsensical and unbusinesslike ruling they were trying to institute, but that's only because I don't have a lot of time to spend in that forum. Oh well. Their loss. I'm sure they can live with it.

Haven't you all caught on yet? Rosity doesn't NEED any of you anymore. You made them what they are now... a big enterprise, and they have CL and RDNA, the folks who forget their friends now that they are big! They don't NEED you! It's a sad, shitty world we live in...

L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.

"..But don't know enough about business to think ahead."

That much is obvious. Look at the way this was brought about. Tim makes a statement disguised as a discussion and then insults people as he bans them from the one forum that keeps them informed about their products. If he worked for me I'd have fired him over a decision as destructive as this. But then although my family depends on our business we don't see our competitors in the same light as Tim seems to see other sites. Quite the opposite. We're friends with them and help each other out when it's needed. Apparently that type of thinking is beyond Tim and others here. To me, Renderosity was always the central point to the 3d art community. "Was".

That ANYONE thinks its right to accept money for someone's product while they are banned from the forum where discussions affect that product is beyond me. It's not logical at all.
You don't implement something like this in the way Tim did. If someone is selling here they have a right to be informed of policy regarding their product. If Renderosity needed to create an even more private forum that was restricted to their idea of "competitors" that would have gone over much better than 'leave your product but don't let the forum door hit you in the arse on the way out'.

...... Kendra

I don't know why Renderosity doesn't just make a seperate forum only available to those who do not "compete". If something needs to be discussed about the inner-workings of Renderosity, then post in that exclusive forum. Then keep the merchants forum for discussing merchant issues. Nah, that might be to simple.

"I don't know why Renderosity doesn't just make a seperate forum only available to those who do not "compete". " They have that. Two of them in fact. They are called the moderators and admins forums.

Nope. Not quite the same, Doc. The admins had their forum and the moderators had theirs. If I chose to keep my products here, I could, but I can't access the forum every other merchant can. It really doesn't matter whether I worked to help build this site before. Renderosity was getting 50 of the sales of my merchandise, just like any other merchant. Site business can and should be discussed in the mod and admin forums which I never had access to as a merchant. I will say it again. No big secrets were discussed in there. But policies that affect the merchants (all of them) were. Why should any merchant be excluded from those discussions?

I have tried to keep quiet about this but I just can't. Let me get this straight 1) If I am a merchant I will be allowed to sell my merchandise here as long as I have no affiliation with other sites or happen to own my own. 2) If I am a merchant here and I DO happen to be affiliated with or own another site I will still graciously be allowed to contribute monetarily by selling my products here, but will not be allowed access to the tools that other merchants are allowed as I would automatically be considered untrustworthy???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? That is the sentiment I am getting from this thread- We are created equalalthough some are more equal than others.. In two words I can say I believe That Blows just about sums it up for me. If you cut your nose off to spite your face you look awfully funny when you brush your teeth in the morning.

You are right about that, Doc. It IS funny. And really, really sad at the same time.

and, now....that whole thread over at PoserPros has "vanished". a purported harddrive failure on their server.

you doubt it Poppi? i know you like your conspiracy theories ;) but why would they delete a 6 page thread supporting them against the move made by renderosity?

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

Flaxyn, It would not apply to you. Here's some examples to try to clear things up FAQ I'm a regular merchant at RR, does this affect me? -No But I make and sell stuff at other sites? -No But I make and sell stuff at other brokered sites? I sell at DAZ, PoserPros, and I work at 3DCommune. -No But I have my own site where I sell my things? -No But I have my own site where I broker other people's kitchen ware where we share the profit? -No, if you aren't competing with RR, its not a problem But I have my own site where I broker other people's 2D/3D art related things where we share the profit? -Yes, this is the only case affected by this change. People who are operating competing brokerage sites. Unless you are cutting people checks for sales of their 2D/3D art related things on your site, or plan to, you have nothing to worry about. R

you doubt it Poppi? i know you like your conspiracy theories ;) but why would they delete a 6 page thread supporting them against the move made by renderosity? not really doubting it...just sort of pissed that it's gone, as i was following it. i guess i've been at renderosity too long....kind of that going to bed, and "poof" a thread, or, even a person does not exist anymore...and, then some sort of easy explanation when asked. i guess my renderosity headspace follows me when i visit other poser sites, is all.

A person dissapeared from PoserPros?

Thanks, Fur, it wouldn't apply to "me" anyways as I am not a merchant here, although that situation might have changed in the future. This "policy" was brought up in the early morning- I think- and implimented by that very afternooon. IMHO why throw the whole thing open to debate when the minds (and I use that term loosely) of those in charge of this policy were already made up anyway???? I don't know this place anymore. I haven't been here but off and on for a few days and "Shazam!" half my friends are gone or pissed. I don't have anything to drag behind me when I leave except myself and some piddly pictures that some purists don't believe is art anyhow. I recall a time in the not too distant past when I was so proud and happy and honored (yes, I felt honored) to be a member here. Now I just want certain people to take their fights and their attitudes to a different sandbox, you're getting sand in my hair. The problem is they run the joint...... This is just wrong.

Poppi we almost lost the whole bloody site .. and you can believe me when I tell if we had gotten to choose what threads we were going to loose it certainly would not have been the ones that we lost. Russell was up all night..that he managed to save every thing he did was only because he acted as fast as he did...and it was NOT something that anyone who owns a site would want to have seen happen. We lost the posts since Thursday .. nothing more , nothing less.. and it was a hair raising night..

Sorry, fur, but that is who it affects now who's to say down the road it will be the same? Eventually the same argument will apply to staff at other sites and then moderators as well. This is only a first step, because if it didn't apply to these other people the whole "reason" behind it doesn't stand up. Kendra - thank you for pointing out that the changes here for 'rosity's free stuff were copies of the old free section at 3-D Arena, AprilYSH worked very hard on that scripting and we tried to insure that everything people wanted to know was right up front. Then people told 'rosity they wanted to see that here and they used it as an example. After we no longer had it - 'rosity enacted it here. 'rosity didn't have to have access to any "secrets" they looked and recreated. I am quite sure that if we put a free section like that back up (and we have been discussing it) then 'rosity would scream foul. The same applies here, anyone can "see" what is at 'rosity without having to be a part of secrets. And I have never seen any marketing information in there that would affect any site other than 'rosity, their surveys are for their users and don't reflect the needs/wants of other sites.

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wow....see, i just popped over there for a minute, this morning...and saw someone's post about missing threads. on the bright side, at least you didn't lose the world's longest poser thread. :*) i will go over and look in a bit, to see if there is a new, similar thread about these goings on.

Yea it was kind of disorienting, I know .. what a night. I think Russ is looking into other ways of restoring threads we lost.

Roy said: "But I have my own site where I broker other people's 2D/3D art related things where we share the profit? -Yes, this is the only case affected by this change. People who are operating competing brokerage sites." And how soon till you start removing other Merchants who have close ties to the other sites? Who have definate ties with such sites as 3D Commune, Renderotica, AniMotions, DAZ, Poser Pros and others?? God forbid, they might rush over to those owners and expose some dirty secrets of such things as the Warehouse section and such... stuff that directly relate and effect the merchants you host and sell for. Why ask people for their opinion if you aren't going to listen to it? Common curtesy?? Perhaps what we are seeing is, Renderosity's attempt of not becoming a "test site" for Content Paradise and Renderosity doesn't want to be the only one to eat the bullet if that idea flops?? No offense, Staff of Renderosity, but you "might" (and I will use that term lightly) end up getting more traffic to your store by being a part of Content Paradise, but you aren't going to make a dime if you manage to drive your Merhcants away... tick off the Community by the lack of support to them and by playing favorites or don't learn how to respond to those Members without being snippy or rude. Obviously you want Renderosity to be "BIG" bvusiness... so then start treating it like a business. You can do so by treating your Merchants and Customers with respect and actually listen to their opinions and input, you'd find allot of them are pretty intelligent. Of course that is my opinion, and if you want to cut yourself off from the rest of the Community, you are more than welcome to do so. No complaints here if you do. Jack

Um, may I pop in just briefly as just a customer? I'm only getting a vague idea what's going on, but it LOOKS bad. A lot of merchants I'm fond of and buy from are bailing, there's legal questions, those with authority here are allowing their personal frustration to slip through on some of their responses, and I'm not seeing an unavoidable reason for it. In general, until the fires die down a bit, this upheaval makes me somewhat hesitant to spend my money here. Add to that the fact that many of the people bailing are the ones I want products from, and it seems like a number of strikes have been put against the Renderosity Marketplace that didn't need to be. Just the confused impressions of one small hobbyist customer.

It is bad. And it's heartwrenching as well. Instead of acting like a business, Tim stated a new policy, asked for feedback, ignored the feedback (which was mainly negative by both those directly affected and those not affected) and kicked people out of the forum all within an hour. He was rude and unprofessional.

You don't treat a business this way. You want to change policy? You let people know, you give a time period and then you enact it. You don't kick them out of the only forum with info that affects their income while taking 40 - 50% of the hard work that helps to run this site. And when that fact is brought up, not one admin has admitted that this was not brought about correctly or professionally. If they do think this is the correct way to run a business, I'm not sure I want to be a part of it. Either as a Merchant or a customer.
And that's incredibly sad to me. I enjoy being involved in this site.

At least I did when I was under the impression that it being run by professionals.

...... Kendra

I think the whole things boils down to one concept--- GREED.

I've seen these sorts of business actions implemented before and what usually happens is the business becomes history in short order. Too bad really! Flaxynn, it also comes down to ego.

if i ever behaved as rudely as clinth, or tim, in my business...i'd get fired!!! and, i work for myself. shame, shame, shame. i may be old fashioned, but, there is still something to be said for class and dignity.

Poppi, these things have a way of working themseves out. I've seen it time and time again. You can't cut your nose off to spite your face, it just won't fly. Some really good people have been hurt in all of this and they'll have their day. Trust me.

it seems to me, that, making blatant enemies can never be a good business practice...on either side. no matter how much you hate someone's guts, there should be a modicum of decorum in public. at least, that's how i have to do this life. but, i live in south florida. we don't even know how to vote. trust me...at my building...the land of everlasting renovations...there are folks i HATE, DETEST, would be glad to see DEAD. yet, i smile and say good mornin', and they do too...even though they HATE, DETEST, and would be glad to see me DEAD, as well. it is just the world of commerce. you just don't vent until you are out of earshot.

I've been watching this thread develop all day, and even though my opinion doesn't really mean a hill of beans in the wide scheme of things, I feel the need to give it anyway. I am not a merchant here. Just one of the many who on occasion post their work in the galleries, and thankful for the ability to do so. But I think if I WERE a merchant here, I would be pulling my store right about now. Sorry guys, but you don't change the rules in the middle of the game. It's just not done! Not by professionals anyway. Judging from what I've been seeing all day, it looks to me like the inmates are now running the asylum...IMHO. Poppi? I agree with your last post 100%. <-------Me...Looking to the right...looking to the left...am I gonna get banned now for expressing an opinion??

Avolonne...the key word is "proffessional".

Well, In all good conscience I have to say I have never seen ClintH ever be out and out rude to anyone. Others I can't say that about. Despite the fact that the "policy" was targeted toward the Merchant area only a fool would think that it doesn't affect us all. (Even if it only affects our buying habits) I've been called many things in my life, but foolish and stupid weren't among the terms. Avalonne, put on yer asbestos undies and night vision goggles... ;-)

Guess I won't be buying from R'osity OR runtime DNA anymore, because this is just asinine. I have never seen a site do such a good job of shooting itself in the foot. If you guys ran a shopping mall, I suppose you wouldn't allow any stores that DARED to sell anyplace else, eh? Flaxxn in post 73 had it right. GREED. Off to delete my wishlist. "For the love of money is the root of all Evil." 1 Titus 6:1a

Hi Laura, I just wanted you to know RDNA has nothing to do with the policies of Renderosity, nor do they have say in our policies. I just wanted to put an end to that rumor because I know there are people out there that are under that impression, Thanks -Trav

Goldfire - RDNA isn't actually a part of this decision - in all fairness they have nothing to do with these policy changes.

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whoops cross posted.

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

No problem, Thanks LSM :)

trav...i respect you. and, you have no reason to lie. you have alot of talent. both sites run on bondware. both sites are ready for the cl "content parasite". they are separate, but, are they equal?

I have to post, But Bondware (Tim) controls RDNA and as long as he has any part of RDNA or makes money off it. I will not purchase any thing there.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

Hi Poppi, we are not sure about content paradise yet. We have made no decsions yet, when we know we will let everyone know. Thanks. -Trav

Bert: Syyd, Colm, Myself, and the team at RDNA control the site. All policy is set by us, and all RDNA decsions are made by us. End of story really. Normally we would stay out of stuff like this, because we choose to spend our time doing things to benifit the community, but I am kinda sick and tired of seeing our name being dragged into this. This is a Renderosity issue, not an RDNA one. It is funny how these rumors get out of hand so quickly. :)

Trav - is Tim make money off of RDNA? Yes/No If he is your site off of my list

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

We pay the normal Bondware fees, so I guess he is. Enjoy the other sites Tom, maybe one day you will change your mind and visit DNA again, but no hard feelings from our end. :) Enjoy -Trav

Trav - I'm a customer for a couple days now (Prod Club) and will cont. to be. I just will not purchae anything that helps Tim. A maybe one day you will change with me and move your stuff to a other site. No hard feelings from me. thebert

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

No problem at all,

I think it is very important that people not confuse the current administration here on Renderosity and their business practices with any of the Staff of RuntimeDNA. I know Eric (Traveler), Colm and Syyd pretty well and know that what they do, they do for the Community first and always have. It is important that people not confuse the fact that although they may lease the bondware forum engine, this in NO WAY makes them controlled by, or in favor of any decisions made by the Powers that Be here on Renderosity. Jack

Thanks for clearing that up Jack. I also concur that the entire team at RDNA is top notch. They always go above and beyond the call of duty and they have been major contributors to the entire community for a very long time.

"In all good conscience I have to say I have never seen ClintH ever be out and out rude to anyone." Neither have I. I have a great deal of respect for Clint. As for RDNA, it is Tim that dragged their name into this and that is unfortunate. They do have a business relationship with Bondware, but they have nothing to do with Renderosity's policies. Please don't punish them because they happen to lease Bondware. Thanks, Diane Thure Griffith DTHUREGRIF@aol.com www.animotions.com Create the adventure! www.renderotica.com Serving the adult graphics community

Jack - I like all the stuff Eric, Colm and Syyd do and I know they has no way part of the decisions made here at renderosity. Now that say, Tim is making money off RDNA and if he's making money I can't support that. I want him to file BK. So if RDNA moves to a new host and new software that TIM is not apart of. "I'll be back" thebert

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

I can understand your thoughts Bert and wont bash your or begrudge your decision. I just felt it is important that Syyd, Colm, Eric and the rest of their staff be accused for the decisions of Renderosity. People need to understand that this is the action of the owners of Renderosity and no one else, regardless if they use the Bondware Software or may/may not be involved in Content Paradise. Again, I can understand your decision to make sure that Tim no longer profits in any way shape or form, but we all need to understand and place the responsibility of these recent decisions in the area they truly come from. Jack

Um... bad me, I should really proof read my stuff before posting... I just felt it is important that Syyd, Colm, Eric and the rest of their staff be accused for the decisions of Renderosity. Should READ... I just felt it is important that Syyd, Colm, Eric and the rest of their staff SHOULD NOT be accused for the decisions of Renderosity. Sorry for my sever and screwed up Typo!! Jack

Jack I agree 110% that this is TIM. thebert ps. I know want you try to say.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

Sorry, Trav, I agree with thebert. I will not give bondware another dime, even indirectly, until Tim sees sense. Maybe this will shock him into realize what a hornet's nest he's stirred up. Or maybe not. Up to you, Tim. You're losing a lot of merchants and, more importantly, customers over this. Is it really worth it? Losing RDNA will hurt even more than losing R'osity; I have a LOT of RDNA stuff on my wishlist, but, sorry, Trav and Syyd. There are malls I don't shop at, either, because of lousy tricks they pulled. I'm sure there are some great merchants that lose out, but they need to talk to their mall management and get them to see sense.

Jack, looks like my fingers can't type tonight either ; ) Second sentance of first paragraph should have read' "Maybe that will shock him into realIZING what a hornet's nest he's stirred up."

I am not going to contiue to debate this because you guys have made up your mind, and I am totally ok with that. Just keep in mind that by boycotting DNA you are hurting us far more then anyone else (about 99% us and 1% "them"). I am kinda saddened by that, but like all of the other storms I have seen blow across this community, I will get over it and will still be standing on the other side handing out freebies. -Trav

Actually Trav, I mentioned RDNA in this at least once, so kind of helped kick this off - belatedly, my apologies.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I think it is really stupid to go after Runtime DNA when they aren't the one's involved. Hurting them WILL NOT hurt Tim or edgenet

I agree.

I think you go after any business that does business with Tim. I'm write a letter to CL to ask for my menoy on the broken program Poser 5 and this action that is going on here. If they has any to do with it, Poser is going in the trash. So my decision is not to do business with anyone that has any business relationship with TIM. If they want me back they need to cut TIM out. What TIM has done is wrong and they need to step up to the plate too. Sitting on the side line and doing nothing is just help him. If you have RDNA, Dark Whipser, Billy-T and other leave and Renderosity will be out of business. I'm pitching and are the big guys going to hit it out or strikeout

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

what was done to the merchants was done HERE. why punish RDNA? so far, that site has been great. and, regardless of whether or not you shop there, they still will have to pay for their Bondware until their contract runs out.

As much as all this is pissing me off, I would never go and boycott RDNA over this. I have so much respect for those people and there's no reason to punish them (actually, that should be us since I'm a mod there :) for this mess. I hope you guys won't do that either...

Eowyn, I agree 100%. I think that feeling spreads throughout the community so no worries. Have you heard how Sydd's doing lately. Is she feeling better yet.

I haven't talked to her lately, only seen her post in the forums I'm afraid.. but she seems to be up to her ears in work :)

sounds like R'osity needed two forums here, one for discussing design and strategy of the MP - limited to Admins and some moderators of R'osity - and another forum for general vendor support. Instead of making a new forum for said purpose no 1, I guess someone thought... why not just banish some people from the vendor forum where they need to get support and faqs on being a merchant here? And cut off some vendors from getting support. And like, cause a huge PR disaster? Instead of doing the easier thing and like... do a little bit of work and open a new forum... :-/ What is a competing brokerage anyway - most of the top vendors have their own sites too. So what. A boutique with your own stuff isn't a brokerage, and hey, some of those boutiques have items that have trouble being sold here. my opinion - if you write it in an email or a forum its not going to be a secret anyway. SOMEbody is going to flap their trap and use copy and paste to their advantage. So what was the point of this PR disaster other than to cause a big brouhaha?

I see this thread's been toodling along under it's own steam all night and not once has the viper that started it crawled out from under his rock and made a statement.... I really do have one other thing to drag behind me when I leave---MY WALLET. Of course that could lead to this site not having a free membership.....or is that what the viper was after all along???

thebert, I don't see that going after CL will do anything. They have enough problems of their own right now without worrying about Tim's. A couple people I really respect have contacted me privately, besides folks like IB commenting publicly. You're right, this is Tim's problem, not RDNA's. And I do really like Syyd and Traveler. Colm I don't know as well, but I've heard good things about him as well. It's not fair to punish them for Tim's grossly unfair policy decisions.

What would be the point of anyone trying to speak on behalf of the administration? No one here wants to hear anything but the sound of their own voice. What's the point of destroying the Renderosity site?...you don't hurt anyone as much as you hurt the members and the other merchants. And typical mob mentality, you start attacking other sites that have nothing to do with the initial problem. No one seems to be trying to solve any problems here (if there are, those voices have been buried)...looks like the game is to just make some kind of statement that has to do more with personalities that resolving issues. It's really embarressing to see adults on both sides act so badly and irrationally. I'm not defending the decisions made by administration (I will never understand the issues because what I am reading is all accusations)...but I bet anything that there might have been a chance to work to make positive changes if everyone hadn't been in such a hurry to form a lynch mob. So sad. And now it's almost impossible to sort out the truth of the matter. So very sad.

If it goes to being a pay membership here, you can almost write the epitaph for the site. It thrives on the traffic - you need people to browse the store in order to buy. That definitely would be biting the hand that feeds you. I just hope someone wakes up today and finds some common sense. Common sense seems not so common right now. Banning people isn't going to help anyone - they just come back under new nicknames and cause all kinds of problems. I'd rather have the usual suspects posting as who I know them by, than chasing them, playing a game of hide and seek. (bijou has been there and knows this from experience...) Goldfire - thanks. Yeah, RuntimeDNA isn't responsible for this one, neither is Curious Labs for that matter. Best not to punish either.

I didn't accuse anyone Dialyn. I see you're accusing people though. I've seen the posts from R'osity staff about this (its been reposted at several other sites - all unaffliated with each other - which leads me to think the reposts are true)... I feel I can give my unbiased opinion on this after reading the fallout. I'm not a rahrah person for any Poser site. I'm not a vendor here or anywhere else. (right now, that might change in the future)I've contributed to some products for sale in the MP here though, from which I do not make a dime from. Just helping a friend that helped me. I'm a member of Renderosity for 2 years, and I am a regular customer of the Marketplace here. (as my credit card and bank account will attest) I even resigned the one moderator position I had at Thralldom.org, so I have more time for my important non-poser work and poser projects alike. (moderation was sucking away all my time) The only Poser site that has a art gallery from me is hosted here at Renderosity. I speak my mind, from bitter experience of 8 years of managing websites and working online. Folks here can take the advice I've learned or leave it, its just my observations. I have no real right to express them here though - there is no such thing as free speech on a private website. But Renderosity has provided a forum that is moderated in a fairly liberal fashion, and I take the opportunity to simply speak my mind. As most of the people in this thread are doing, both pro and con. I think Renderosity has a right to have a forum dealing with their Marketplace strategies that is free of their competitors - they should have simply gone about this a different way than they did. The way they did it has caused a huge war, which isn't good for Renderosity or anyone else here. My 2 cents worth, and probably not even worth that.

I've been Flaxynn as long as I've been here. Tim doesn't have to chase me down to find me. I am just a little fishy and I know he can flush me whenever he gets tired of feeding me and use my bowl for a planter. I have seen a lot of the shit-storms that fly around here and just put up my umbrella most of the time, but this one.... Awe- fuggeddaboudit................I'm pissing on a forestfire.

Yes, well, that's the answer. Start throwing accusations at me when the issue is elsewhere. I thought it was important that you all realize that to an outside observer, these thread appears differently than it does to you on the inside. I am not part of the marketplace, never will be; and all I come to Renderosity for is a place to hang my non-artistic graphics, buy a few items for my hobby, and try to enjoy some conversation with people who hold the same interest. The best part of this site (the fun and the information sharing) is increasingly getting chased off this site by people tearing into each other....and it's not all due to the administrators. But it is easier to attack me than take any responsibility, isn't it? Because there is always two or more sides to any stories and I'm not convinced I've got very much of the truth here. I was so disguested yesterday that I turned off my computer and went out into the real world. This would be a good day to do the same. I believe it is important to you. Just don't assume it is very important to me other than to see a site I enjoyed getting flushed for the sake of stubbornness on both sides. Oh, yes, I know you completely read over the fact that I said there is probably truth on both sides. Arguments, battles, war are two way affairs. My point was only that there is no point in anyone from the "other side" posting because the mentality of this thread is an attack mode, not a listening mode. Do read back through the thread and figure out why I think that. Good bye all. Have a wonderful Sunday. I will because I'm turning off this forum now. Take care.

Dialyn - take care, I'll put on a violin concerto for you :) I read every post, and then some on the other sites too. I'm being very very fair, and I actually do support Renderosity's original reasoning - I just disagree about their implementations. Flaxlynn... I've been bijouchat as long as I've been here too. Somebody took the bijou name (that never uses it) before I got here. So I don't have it here. Sigh. I'd probably PAY someone here at R'osity to let me have that name. HINT HINT!! ;-) Most other sites, you can look me up as bijou though :) I agree about the forest fires... you know what? They happen everywhere unfortunately - everywhere you have a forum and lots of people - will always be a fight somewhere.

TIM is the one that said the if the merchant that owner RDNA will not be banned becuase they has a business relationship. So be a mercahnt is not a business relationship to TIM. Him the one that made them a part of this. Now CL is one of business, we all need to address this to. If CL know that they parnter is doing this to old parnters just maybe they will not doing business. I will email all company that sell software here. That if they are doing business with TIM, they will not get my business. If everyone did the same thing that feel my way than they may rethink the parntership. The only way to fight this is at him pocket book!!!

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

I saw this thread 2 days ago but decided to stay out for a while to see what developed. It seems to me that any merchant who decides to go somewhere else will soon be replaced so Renderosity will still have merchants BUT the quality items will be harder to replace. Most of the merchants who are leaving have worked at this for years & this is really going to hurt Renderosity especially when people like me who aren't merchants yet decide to start selling elsewhere instead of coming here. I've read this whole thread & right now the decision doesn't affect the ordinary merchants here but how long till it does? How long till someone decides it's a good idea to force people to make freestuff exclusive to Renderosity? I realise there are a lot of items already exclusive but would you want to be limited to only providing your freebies here?

If you are a merchant here on Renderosity, you should be in the merchants forum. If you don't have a store here, then you shouldn't have access. Simple 'nuff for me. :) If Renderosity needs a forum for MP strategy, they shouldn't be discussing it in a merchant's forum in the first place. Merchants forum should just be for merchants that sell here. They shouldn't know sensitive information about this website. Tell a phone, tell a vendor, tell everybody in poserland, you know? And my feeling is, certain persons were using R'osity's forums for their own advertising purposes, and these are some of the loudest screams you hear in this thread. Well... as cynical as this sounds - this isn't against Renderosity TOS. So they weren't breaking the rules. But I sympathise with Renderosity's annoyance at this. They should change the TOS, IMHO. Nuff said from me. Hope someone actually listens, but doubt they will.

I wonder... does CL -really- want to be associated with these backstabbers? Remember when DAZ dropped the pfo? CL really needs to wake up and smell the sewer that's spilling out here.

L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.

hmm Wasn't there a big letter writing campaign to DAZ back then? It worked wonders, if I recall.

Scratch the above idea though, I doubt it would be of any use.

Its worth a try but in this case it might fall on deaf ears. I think the growth chart that someone's following for their business growth, is being held upside down. That would explain things.

It's sad to see Rosity shooting itself in the foot like this.

Is this the beginning of the end for Rosity? I hope not, but I fear that it is, unless the administration admit their mistake, apologise, and invite the banned members back to the merchant forum.

At the moment Rosity has a leading position, but with the talent and content leaving in droves, and so much bad feeling being generated, it can't be long before some other site steps into the gap, IMHO Rosity should act decisively, and start mending fences before it's too late.

I've stayed out of this so far, even in the vendors forum, because I'm entirely sick of the bullsh*t politics here at Renderosity, but I had to jump in here. Boycotting RuntimeDNA because you're pissed and Bondware's big cheesehead... sorry, head cheese... doesn't make any sense. That's kind of like boycotting WalMart because they use Microsoft Money to do their accounting and you're pissed at Bill Gates.

here here Quagnon. Entirely right!

Amen Quagnon!

Let see if I got its. It's ok for a females Org. to boycot Coke-Cola or IBM for sponsing the Masters. But it not ok to boycot a web site that is host by and pays for sotware to a ass. I sick of all the BS that flying around here. I'll not purchasing for anybody that is in business with the ass. If that DAZ or CL and even RDNA anyone. Tim is gone "I'll be back" If we want to stop TIM, we run a week boycot of any purcahsing, posting, or anything at Renderosity

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

I am just wondering if the damage IS actually repairable, to be honest. I am fairly certain that this isn't the first time that Merchants and Customers here have been frustrated and flowed with the tides of change... I am more inclined to believe that this is the final straw that broke the camel's back... And even if Tim was to change policy back, how many vendors/Merchants would return only to have something like this occur again down the road... Allot that I am seeing here posted is the lack of trust in the owner of this place (TIM) and once that trust is removed or damaged, it will take quite some time before Merchants or some Customers begin to trust enough to even come back... Maybe the damage is way beyond repair now... :o( Jack

Jack wrote "And even if Tim was to change policy back.." Jack, it will not happen (my opinion of course). Those who have been here for ages have seen bad ideas rammed down throats before, but have you ever seen Tim change a policy back once he has stated it? I have not, but if he has I am sure someone will correct me :-)

I didn't say it wasn't "all right" I just said I didn't agree with your reasoning. Clearly you can make your own decision and I honestly don't care what you decide to do, but if you can post your opinion, I can do the same. I'm also not saying I disagree with your opinion of the situation -- I've been following this since it first popped up on the merchant's forum and I certainly disagree with the policy. Does it affect me? No. Does it affect friends of mine? Only one, as far as I know, but he doesn't even sell his stuff at this point. This next part is directed at everyone, not just "thebert." I think non-merchants have the wrong impression about the opposition to this policy. In fact, I think Tim himself has the wrong impression about the opposition to this policy. See, the thing is, merchants (who are, judging by the posts in the vendor forum, overwhelmingly opposed) are upset about three main points: 1. In the merchant agreement we all had to digitally "sign" in order to sell items at Renderosity, it clearly states that merchants selling items in the Renderosity Marketplace have access to e-commerce tools, vendor forum and vendor chat. With the exception of the banners and sales functions, all of the tools/chat are available only through links located in the vendor forum. In other words, so-called "competing merchants" will have access to very few of the tools and features every other merchant has access to. This handicaps their ability to promote, maintain and improve their storefront. 2. By removing access to the vendor forum, Renderosity is preventing these merchants from being made aware of important policy changes/rules changes before they are implimented. In some cases, this isn't a big deal, but in other cases, it could significantly delay release of products, should submission requirements be changed, or it could render products entirely unviable in the marketplace, yet the merchant would only find this out when submitting. A change in how front page articles and banners are used? The merchant may never know, unless they have a friend who has access to the merchant forum. Changes were made to how front page articles and banner ads were displayed just last month, as announced in the vendor forum, but even though the changes have been effected, I have yet to see any announcement outside the vendor forum. 3. Perhaps the most upsetting to most of us, this policy was originally presented by Tim as an opportunity for the merchants to help with policy -- kind of "you're our partners in this venbture, so we'd like your opinions and feedback on this policy so we can help grow the community." Then, when the response was by and large negative, we were told, essentially "we're doing it anyway, so be quiet already." I have only been a merchant here since August, but this is already the third time I have witnessed this approach being taken to policy changes. How much of a partner am I in any venture in which my opinion is discounting without consideration? Do the merchants have no say whatsoever in the policies of this site, regardless of the fact that we are the ones who help fund it? Merchants who are in the top ten total sales have spoken out against it and been shrugged off and people like me who are something like 500 out of 700-something have also been shrugged off. It's an issue of trust and respect, and with their response to our concerns and objections, Renderosity... actually, I have to say Tim, not Renderosity... have violated that trust and shown very little respect to the people who give half their profits to this site. Again, my opinion. I'm sure others disagree in whole or in part -- I'm just calling it as I see it.

Thank You Quagnon! I wasn't going to post any more on the subject, but your delightful and clear statement of the facts as I saw them made me feel less like I was pounding my widdle fists on the ground for no reason. The only thing I can see that should sadden all of us now is that the main entity that should be reading/listening to these posts - isn't. Even though some of us are not merchants, this breech of faith and trust affects anyone who ever spent a dime in the marketplace.

OK - I've been trying to keep out of this, but I feel that there are a couple of things I need to say seeing as I've been directly challenged (several times) to leave Renderosity: 1. The new policy DOES NOT affect people who are not exclusive at Renderosity. It ONLY affects people who are running their own brokerage businesses, as well as selling at Renderosity. Let's face it - we're not talking 500 merchants here... more like 20. 2. Renderosity is a business, and a business is nothing without money. I see many people saying things like "it's all about the money". Yeah? big wow... let me see you run a business without money! Even some people who own brokerage site sell their own products elsewhere... why? Because they need money to pay for bandwidth, to run their site. Business is about money. 3. I have also seen many calls for the big merchants to pack up and leave - the old "that'll show them attitude". Not all 3D merchants can use the over-used "screw you guys, I'm taking my marketplace items and leaving". Even though Renderosity has a couple of policies that I don't personally agree with - they have the membership, and thus the customer base to make me a success. To me they are a business partner, and I will be the first to admit that without Renderosity - I would be nothing in the 3D merchanting world. It is NOT the other way round. True - Renderosity makes a bit of money from me, but quite frankly I benefit far more from them then they do from me. I (like Renderosity) am running a business. That business needs money: I need money to pay for my own site, my home, my car, my food, etc. I cannot afford to make any decisions based on my emotions. Any big decisions need to be thought through very carefully (and in my case some serious prayer is involved). 4. I have also seen many "I'll never buy at Renderosity again" type posts. OK - thats your decision, but remember who you're really hurting. You're hurting the individual merchants far more than your hurting Renderosity. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I could not survive if I were to move all my items to Daz, PoserPros, or even my own site. So until there is another Broking company out there that can offer me a similar income as Renderosity - I would be killing my own business to move. Do what you decide is right, but don't expect everyone to follow your challenge - there is a much bigger picture out there. Let me finish by stating that I did not agree with the way Tim asked for feedback about the policy change, only to do it anyway. This was obviously a business move that was decided on before the original post, and so I think it should have been more along the lines of his second post. I do however see the business sense in this decision, and respect that because I am a business partner, I will have to accept this new policy. Regards, d

I think each merchant has to decide for themselves what is best for them in the long run. While I agree with part of what you say D, I don't agree with everything. At least two of the merchants who asked in this forum because they were locked out of the merchant forum. They were locked out of the merchant forum because they run or own sites that broker other merchants (many of whom sell here as well). I'm sorry but that's just plain silly. These people have made Renderosity money. Renderosity was very happy to take their cut of the sales but they did not think it was alright to allow these merchants the same access to resources as everyone else. And now when this new policy is being questioned, answers are not being given. In fact, legitimate questions are being ignored and those who disagree are accused of not having Renderosity's best interests at heart. I can also say without a doubt that at least one in particular has not done what was implied (publically bashing Renderosity and/or divulging secrets on their message boards) and has never had anything but the communities best interests at heart. Besides, if these people wanted to hurt Renderosity would it not hurt THEM in return? Tell me what hurts the community more - treating all merchants equally, regardless of any outside affiliations or singling out a very select few with discriminatory policy? I can tell you what my answer is.

Erg, I must be more tired than I thought. "At least two of the merchants who asked in this forum because they were locked out of the merchant forum." Should read "At least two of the merchants who asked in this forum for their stores to be closed did so because they were locked out of the merchant forum."

Quagnon - "Does it affect me? No. Does it affect friends of mine? Only one, as far as I know, but he doesn't even sell his stuff at this point." It did not affect me or any of my freinds. But as a merchant here too, I think its wrong to single out person and banned them for the tools they need. So beside closing my store and small one at that. I've decide to do all I can to make it hell for Tim and the only thing I can fight with is my purchases. Dark_Whisper - I know it all about money and all business need it. But sometime you have to draw a line in the sand and say no more. This is my line. As a customer of yours, I'm sorry to say if you selling something here only, I will not purchase it. I can only fight with what say you said "MONEY". But I'll tell you this if you sale to other site too. I'll be purchasing "I'll be back"

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

thebert - That's your decision, and I respect it. It's a pity to lose you as a potential customer, but you gotta do what you gotta do. No hard feelings here. d

I've been a member for a year or more. In that time I've bought literally hundreds of products here. I've made a lot of friends among the membership. Some were also merchants here, some became merchants after being members a while. I've sometimes bought products of marginal interest to me, because I wanted to encourage a new merchant that I'd corresponded with or enjoyed their free contributions as they developed their talents. I've even been a beta tester for new products on a number of occasions. I can see the work that so many put into their products, and I'd hate to see the satisfaction and pleasure they get from an occasional sale cut off. I honestly don't envision many of the merchants here making vast sums of money - just enough to cover some of their own purchases. (Talking about the "average" merchant, not the few "superstars" we all recognize:-) As I understand it, the merchants get 50% or so from their sales, from the remainder, site upkeep, salaries, etc for Renderosity comes off the top. I wasn't aware the site was owned by an individual, but I don't think they pocket much out any sale after all this is taken out. Regardless of the upshot of this situation, I don't want to penalize the vendors who lack the talent, time, or resources to setup & maintain a commercial site of their own, and also scramble for enough visitors to their site to make a few sales. I plan on continuing to visit the Renderosity MarketPlace and support and encourage the merchants and artists here, and likewise the merchants at the other sites whose creations I've come to enjoy so much (when there's a product I want, if I happen to discover they sell it also on the artist's own site, and they accept credit cards, I nearly always prefer buying it direct, anyway, so they get the bigger slice of the pie). I wish to goodness-gosh this whole situation hadn't occurred, but it's nothing I haven't seen occur several times both online and in the real world. Sometime it blows over, sometimes not. In the end, I prefer to concentrate on the people/friends/members rather than the contention - It's just words on a screen - goes away when I throw the switch. If this has a point, I guess it's this; I sincerely wish prosperity & success to all the merchants both here and elsewhere, and the same just as sincerely to the staff & employees of Renderosity who've given me help & advice so often... ...Don't think my words will change anyone's views, but I (uncharacteristically) felt compelled to post them. Cheers, all! Jerry B

Dark Whisper, No offense, but how can you consider yourself a "partner" to a company that doesn't listen to you input? Allot of the merchants that are pulling out and the customers going somewhere else is going to effect your business and sales. It might not now, but it may later down the road. I left as a merchant long before this, I left after the policy change regarding character/product names. Opinions asked for, despite the overwhemling replies to leave it as was, it was still changed. That isn't partnership, where I come from that's call "stroking your d*ck" to make you feel like your opinion counts. Either way, Renderosity's current move is discriminating and it restricts trade for those affected and breaks the contract that those merchants had with Renderosity. You don't have to leave and can stay, there is nothing wrong with that and at this point it doesn't affect you... but what if a company was to approach you (say DAZ) to do work for them and because of your affliation with them, could be viewed as a "competitor" and next thing you know, you become restricted here as well. I know the money you make here is good, heck, I made decent sales here, and I know what it is like to not have that money. But you've stated you don't agree with it, you don't like the way it was done... but because it doesn't really affect you right now, you aren't going to do anything about it. If you don't stand up and help to work and change this now or how can you ever expect support from others if and when it does? When will your "partnership" be taken seriously if not now?? Please don't think that I don't respect your choice, understand it or mean to offend you. Heck, you don't have to even answer me. You have to do what you think is right and I respect whatever decision you make. :o) Jack

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In a world filled with causes for worry and anxiety...
we need the peace of God standing guard over our hearts and minds.
 
Jerry McCant

Jack - Here is why I call Renderosity a Business Partner: Renderosity offers me a service: they host my files, they handle the online payments, they advertise for me, etc. I pay Renderosity for that service by giving them a percentage of my sales. Without me, Renderosity gets no money from Dark_Whisper products. Without Renderosity, I get no money from Dark_Whisper products. ...in my mind that's a business relationship. <<>> The first part of this comment is not true. If you reread my comment, you will see that I felt it was handled unprofessionally, and I stand by that statement. There have been other similar situations where I felt Renderosity handled it wrong too - you get my 100% agreement there. If a business decision has already been made, asking for feedback was not required. However that being said - I also understand that it was a decision that made business sense to Renderosity. And for that reason, I should respect it, or terminate the business agreement. I also already sell at Daz, but if they were to ask me to work for them, then I'd have to weigh up their offer against what I have now - simple. I did not post to become part of any flame-fest. I merely stated my position for the people who have contacted me insinuating that if I don't leave Renderosity - I'm not standing up for the community. That is unfair, and narrow-minded. d

{{{{the3dwizard: I am not sure what casued this move.}}}} This move was caused by the fact that Tim Choate, whether with Steve Coopers approval and instigation or without it, has chosen to instigate and put into motion events that would cause competitive brokerage owners from not being able to be a part of Content Paradise. He evidently fears we will evaluate it's success or lack thereof, as merchants, from the inside, and perhaps even join into Content Paradise at a later date for our own sites. I find it interesting that someone who is an admin on this site has deleted my above post where I answered both ScottA and Sharon. Kendra, in post #17 above refers to it for those of you who doubt it was ever posted, or deleted. (BTW if anyone has a copy of this thread before my post was deleted, could you please do me a favour and email it to me at mehndi@mehndistudios.com) In my now deleted post I stated my lifetime gross sales on this site, which shows my level of "entitlement" to access to all priveledges as a merchant, including a forum I hardly ever visited and used, The Merchants Forum. But whether I chose to visit the forum often or not, speak very often or not, the point remains that it was my right to be able to do so. Since this is my OWN information it is my right to reveal it publically, and deleting my post to hide it merely demonstrates what the rest of you have coming down the pike for you if you stay here. Silencing of you by force if they suddenly decide they do not like your politics. Sales Summary for All Sales Number of Sales - 832 Gross Revenue - $20,627.40 Tim Choate and JeffH are further justifying their conduct to the merchants in the merchants forum by making posts claiming that I have been a disruption to the Merchants forum. In fact, I am a silent member most of the time. I take it very seriously that I am "Mehndi". I choose to NOT speak most of the time, since my words cause things to happen in this community. I take a totally neutral stance on most things. The extent of my posts in the merchants forum has been to bookmark threads that interest me so I will get the ebots, or ask the occasional question of Clint to clarify something. If ClintH will speak out and take an honest stance he can verify that. At no time have I used the Merchants forum for any agenda as Tim Choate is claiming, and I have in fact done my level best to avoid doing just that. As to Tim Choate's further claims that ideas were being stolen from the Merchants forum, and ScottA's claim that it is merely there for those interested in Marketplace User Interface Design, in both cases they are lying. Not that Scott is probably much aware that he is though, since he is merely reporting what his "friends" want him to say in blind faith in them, having not sold items, so not ever had access so far as I know to be able to even know what goes on in there. The truth is that no "ideas" about design actually have gone on in there since I left as an Store Admin for Renderosity. All that has happened in that year is that Clint, or Tammy sometimes post a policy change that is about to take place, ask for input and votes, then do it anyway irregardless of the outcome of the discussion and votes. These changes always impact individual sales negatively, as all merchants who have been here for a protracted period of time can attest to. I would be a fool to copy even one of these ideas. God forbid I should place such a burden on my precious merchant talent on PoserPros. And lastly but not least. I am not sure who is pressuring Dark Whisper to pull his items from Renderosity Marketplace, nor if any other of my staff are being pressured (I certainly hope they are not), but I would like to say that I do not appreciate it if they are. We have chosen on purpose amongst ourselves in PoserPros to NOT talk on these events in our Moderator forums, choosing to make it a taboo topic. There is not one single post in our moderator forum discussing these matters, nor have I in any way indicated my own feelings to my staff on any of these matters. My staff WILL make up their own minds on all things as I expect them to do, as free individuals. Please do not pressure my staff, no matter how well you mean it. I do appreciate your show of support and loyalty and sympathy, but I cannot have my staff feel pressured. I hope you understand.

Firstly I'd like to say that no-one should take it upon themselves to try to force other merchant's to leave - that's as unfair and prejudicial as what 'rosity has done here. For those who think this is a sound decision you are overlooking a little soomething - it isn't just other broker owners who will be locked out of that forum - it will also be those who don't follow the pack. Anyone 'rosity feels is "disturbing" the forum or making it difficult for them to enact new policy runs the risk of being locked out - they stated that. Furthermore - I was locked out of the forum while my business partner was not, and he even requested his store to be closed and it isn't yet. There are others still in the forum who own brokerage sites and they have not been removed either. They have not hidden that fact and indeed have mentioned it there - but still they have access - kind of puts a dent in the whole idea of it being about those who own a brokerage......

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

This all makes an evil kind of sense now. Refer to post #77 above. It's one of the seven deadly sins. There's a book on the subject, perhaps someone should read it........

Agreed

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.

Okay, sorry I misunderstood your description of being a Partner with Renderosity, Dark Whisper, my bad. :o) And like I said before, I certainly respect your stance and decision in regard to this matter and think it is admirable for you to stick to your guns and weight the options as they effect you. Don't let anyone try to pressure you into doing something that you are unwilling to do. Be well!! Jack

I remember the Seven Deadly Sins. Was required reading in AOL customer support training :)

Was also a wicked movie ;)

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
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