Ok, God only knows where this thread's going to end up, but I'mreally curious about the new DAz rendering app that everyone keeps saying is going to be so great. What's the deal? What's it supposedly going to do? Is it a Poser add-on, or will it replace Poser altogether? Will it let the cat out and do the dishes?

In order: It's great. Everything. No Yes. No, it will let the dishes out and do the cat. :) But really, I have as much idea as you. Sorry.

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Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5526

go to link above to read some first hand impressions.

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

I get the drift, I guess. But will there be a Mac version?

And a Cheese version?

I'll settle for a version that works for me.

There will be a Mac version according to someone in that thread.

Come on know...you guys know we all enjoy testing software... and I love nothing better than to throw my wireless mouse across the room.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

dave so, IM dan and ask to be a beta tester... better yet, give me your next wireless mouse before you trash it!!! i wouldn't mind having one of those :D

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

I'll settle for a version that works for me.<<< Bingo! Having just tried to render another previously saved scene with ----- - and, again, having ----- - choke and puke, I second your delicately put opinion, Lapis. All I ask Daz to consider is that most of us already have our Poser related models, textures, etc. placed within a Poser 4 directory. It would be nice and very considerate of them if they allowed us to somehow directly link to that structure without having to reload everything or, worse, keep two working directories of the same stuff. Take care and be well. casamerica

Come on know...you guys know we all enjoy testing software...<<< Yea, when I KNOW that is what I am supposded to be doing and when I DON'T have to pay for the privilege! ;-) >>>and I love nothing better than to throw my wireless mouse across the room.<<< Try nerf balls. Safer and much less expensive. ;-) My wife bought me a dozen or so nerf balls a few weeks ago. With those and a case of Corona, I've actually managed NOT to break anything expensive when working with... correction, when trying to get ----- - to actually work as advertised and promoted. Every C exception gets me another Corona. I may not be happy, but I'm more mellow. ;-) Take care and be well. casamerica

supposded? supposded? Well, there's been a lot of Coronas lately. Take care and be well. casamerica

No, they're just going to buy out Poser, like they did with Mimic.

Coronas? In November? I was wondering what the "C" in "C Exception" stood for...

Ugh... chihuahua juice. I'd rather have a Sam Adams with each C-exception. :)

In the West, Corona is commonly called "Donkey Piss"...

Now you've went and hurt my feelings... a little... sorta... maybe. What can I say? I like it. I admit that my father also thinks its terrible. And he cannot fathom why I would order a Guinness either. But, hey, I like it! I just tried, yet again, to get ----- - to do what it was supposedly created to do and, yet again, it has choked and puked. So, another Corona? Nope. It was not a C exception. So, its just a gin and tonic. ;-) I may have to uninstall and shelve/Deep Six ----- - before I become an alcoholic. Anyway, regardless of your beverage preferences, my friends, take care and be well. casamerica

Cas, you may have to shelve it for the time being. Its not worth the frustration. Once they get the bugs ironed out, then you can dust it off and have another go. I refuse to torment myself any longer, so my rendering in P5 is on hold.Beta 5 was the final straw for me. It won't find a slew of textures any more and it locks up on too many renders. So now its a race between the new DAZ ap(which I won't be the first one on the block to own) or the P5 ap finally ironed out(if ever). In the meantime I'll sit back and relax, and wait and wait and.......

Thanks for that link, April, it is very good news. I was getting a little worried about that program since DAZ & CL started "talking" again. It shouldn't be hard for any new program to beat Poser in useability and function. All they need are a few designers and programmers that know what they're doing with today's OS's and hardware and are unfamiliar with Poser. "All I ask Daz to consider is that most of us already have our Poser related models, textures, etc. placed within a Poser 4 directory. It would be nice and very considerate of them if they allowed us to somehow directly link to that structure without having to reload everything or, worse, keep two working directories of the same stuff." This might be tough. To keep compatibility with legacy models, they might have to come up with directory handling similar to Poser's (yuck!). If it were all new, they should be able to create an open structure, allowing you to use whatever directory system you want. Like every other program I've ever used. But whatever they come up with, I bet they don't include some Nazi software protection scheme that forces registration and causes customer's nightmares. I'd bet that almost everyone's installation goes as smoothly as casamerica's did with P5.

Oh, and Hi, Lapis! How you been?

Hangin in there my friend. And you? Been beta testing lately? That's stacking up to be one hell of a bug list isn't in the bug parade, isn't it? I recall a time not so long ago when some people were put off by the fact that some of us were suggesting there may be some problems with this holy grail of a program called Poser 5. As the bug parade continues it kind of proves what we were saying out of the gate. Jackson, if you haven't loaded patch 5 yet, hold off, it caused a lot of strange issues on my machine. It was a step backwards if that is possible.

Come on now..you know its all user error :)

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

The gangs all here.

hmm, from input I have gotten from several sources, the daz app will eventually be running on ALL os options, including the nix variants. and if anyone is silly enough to think that daz won't have every one of thier current products functioning in thier app they need to get the hole patched in thier head. ;) daz is well aware that people will want to be able to use all current content with thier app. ( and we all know that daz does pay attention to thier customers. ) casa, Stormrage has yet to get the c exception screen with her copy of bugware 5. or even the bsod. I have watched her run it through every option but contempt parasites, and not one major problem, until she put sp2beta in the other day.

the whole deal is a bit strange...it seems as if one bug is fixed, and another appears... I, as everyone here knows, couldn't even run the app at first....the SR1 and things seemed pretty good--except c excep. and som other stuff... now SR2-5beta, and I'm getting render problems, especially with lights.... As an aside..Syyd over at RDNA just started a thread concerning the light problems...if you guys are having these or know a fix, head on over there and reply... The message is in the POSER 5 forum.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

back to the topic... I would actually love to beta test the new DAZ app...think I'll put my name in the hat. If I know I'm doing beta, its a bit different than becoming one unexpectedly :)

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

That makes two of us Dave on both accounts.

I'm concidering agitating for getting daz to let me test thier app for linux. ~baeg~ then I would have a quality 3dgraphics app for linux without having to spend 7 grand us for maya.

So, Jaqui, you're a Linux user ??? I tried it awjhile back...couldn't get anything to work. Just picked up Linux Format mag..has a full copy of one of the variations..can't rember which :) but when I went to see if my hardware was compatible, most of my vcomponents were not on the list..so now I"m afraid to give it a go... Its a very frustrating OS to get working..at least in my 3 attempts...last try was RedHAT 5.1, so its been awhile...maybe things have become easier?

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

I suggest using Mac OS X instead of Linux, which has the advantage of a polished GUI if you want a UNIX based OS that can also run other UNIX apps.

I'd bet that almost everyone's installation goes as smoothly as casamerica's did with P5.<<< Hi, Jackson. Yeah, but look at the karma it cost me. That was the about the only thing with ----- - that has went smoothly. I am writing this as an animation I am doing for a client is rendering on another machine. I really thought that by this time I would be doing these in ----- -. But, you see, I am just not the type to place an item, any item, that I paid money for based on advertisements and promotions on the shelf with that "live and learn" attitude. Nope. And my patience is about gone and grows less and less each time I read another of those "if you can't say anything nice... " posts. When the day arrives that I run up the white flag on ----- - and uninstall it, that will only be the beginning. Believe me. That day is rapidly approaching. Take care and be well. casamerica

I recall a time not so long ago when some people were put off by the fact that some of us were suggesting there may be some problems with this holy grail of a program called Poser 5. As the bug parade continues it kind of proves what we were saying out of the gate.<<< Buy, Lapis, those people still will not acknowledge that. It is still somehow our fault, our "user error," our "lack of knowledge." Granted, they have never, ever been able to explain to me how "user error" or "lack of knowledge" by the user can cause the ongoing C exception parade. And do not even try to state your position on the "public beta testing" AFTER the public release in the "Poser 5 Public Beta Testing Forum." The pirahnas quickly swarm. Oh, well. Gotta run. Animation is finished rendering. Take care and be well. casamerica

Jackson, >>> >>>"All I ask Daz to consider is that most of us already have our Poser related models, textures, etc. placed within a Poser 4 directory. It would be nice and very considerate of them if they allowed us to somehow directly link to that structure without having to reload everything or, worse, keep two working directories of the same stuff."<<< This might be tough. To keep compatibility with legacy models, they might have to come up with directory handling similar to Poser's (yuck!). If it were all new, they should be able to create an open structure, allowing you to use whatever directory system you want. Like every other program I've ever used.<<< <<< A quick note here to clarify, maybe, what I meant. I am hoping that I can access all my Poser files from within the Daz app AND use them in Poser 4 without having them located in two locations. In other words, I do not want duplicates. I don't know if I'm really making any sense. But I would like some kind of linkage, similar to what was attempted in Poser5, to my Poser 4 Runtime from the Daz app. Take care and be well. casamerica

It sounds to me like they've built this app to run one figure only - Victoria 3.

Not according to Jack and Penguinisto. They saw it running other figures.

I think they said they saw screen caps of Victoria 3.

Hangin in there my friend. And you? Been beta testing lately? Doing great, thanks. No, not beta testing anymore. That's why I'm doing so well ;) As the bug parade continues it kind of proves what we were saying out of the gate Yes, I pointed that out once a while back and was called childish for doing so. Heh, some ppl just can't admit when they're wrong. Thanks for the tip on the beta but don't worry, after reading the horror stories in the beta forum, I don't plan on using any of 'em 'til that forum is filled with praise. May take a while. But, you see, I am just not the type to place an item, any item, that I paid money for based on advertisements and promotions on the shelf with that "live and learn" attitude. Cas, you don't have to. Just leave it on your drive and don't touch it. Kick back and let all the happy, sunshiny ppl work out the problems. Then get the fix...if it ever comes. A quick note here to clarify, maybe, what I meant. I am hoping that I can access all my Poser files from within the Daz app AND use them in Poser 4 without having them located in two locations. In other words, I do not want duplicates. I see and I feel the same way. It shouldn't be a problem I would think. What I was referring to was how cr2's always point to that Runtime folder. If DAZ comes up with a different method (which also shouldn't be too hard), then older cr2s--or whatever DAZ chooses to call 'em--will have to be modified. Unless they use both systems. And, Jeff, even if you're right, it'll still be a breath of fresh air because it really will be new and it really will work. Plus, being a Version 1, it will of course be improved in future versions, not crippled.

JeffH > It sounds to me like they've built this app to run one figure only - Victoria 3.

That's enough for 95% of today's Poser users.
Let's face it, even if the DAZ application is only mediocre in comparison to modern 3D programs, it will still be better than Poser 5.

Jeff check this out http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5526&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40 I asked Peng if it would be compatible with older daz figures and he said yes. In fact they had the updo hair on v3 at the time. Jackson, mine is shelved too for now. My wife couldn't handle all the swearing going on. Lot less grief.

JeffH - it has been tested with DAZ figures other than Vicky 3, promise. Also, I didn't see just a simple screenshot - I saw the proggie itself in motion, whilst standing over Rob W's shoulder at DAZ HQ, to be precise. (I live reeealy close to DAZ HQ. They're just south of Salt Lake, I'm 35 minutes' north of SLC.) No it won't do the dishes, or the cat. No, I dunno if there will be a Linux version yet (though it won't be for lack of lobbying for one, that's for sure.) Is it a P5 clone? No. Was it built to kick CL in the 'nads as revenge and shame P5 into non-existence? No. Will there be a Mac version? Yes. I shan't go any further with questions pointing in that direction, however. For the rest, time shall reveal all :) Cheers, /P

"It sounds to me like they've built this app to run one figure only - Victoria 3." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You cant seriously beleive that Daz would create a new program that only uses daz figure... Vicky3 . That would be like Newtek releasing a new version Lightwave3D that only model and renders Cubes. i am very interested in this new DAz application and i hope they are smart enough to make it OSX compatible and with character animation export to other high end programs.

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Yes I am serious.

Victoria 3 will have to be a whole new format, nothing like poser at all.

If the new app loads old figures from Poser that easily there may be a problem. It's called theft.

-JH.

Theft is a important topic.
Maybe I should sue Curious Labs because they stole my time with Poser 5.

BTW if CL tries to take Poser users as hostages with legal tricks and closed file formats, they are no different than any other kidnapper. If they can't hold the users with a good product they can't hold them period.

Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5526

*"If the new app loads old figures from Poser that easily there may be a problem. It's called theft."* No, it is not. We've been wrangling with this issue for quite awhile, and all teh relevant stuff is idling in Poser Pros, at the provided link. Reading external formats is not theft, else Winamp would be paying royalties for.mp3 format, Every Tom, Dick, and Harry's l33t-0 image viewer would be paying Unisys for opening LZW-compressed files (they don't), and Sun Microsystems (OpenOffice.org) would be shelling out exorbitant sums of cash to Microsoft just for the right to open .doc, .xls, .ppt, and .mdb formats. As long as the format isn't encrypted, it is not illegal (or the DMCA, which is why I mentioned encryption) to open or import it. The legalities lie in exports, and in saving the file. This will require paying royalties on a patent (not copyright, but a patent) to use the encoding process, if Curious Labs has even applied for the patent on the .pz3/.pp2/.fc2/etc formats at all. Also, even notepad can open a .pz3 file insofar as programs go, aaand, a .pz3 file is essentially a re-arranged .obj file, often with absolute data stripped out of it to accomodate "characters." Incidentally, why is it that POV-Ray isn't paying royalties to CL for converting .pz3 to .pov files? /P

PS: PAge 7 of that thread up there will provide the more meatier legal ramifications for the lawyers among us :) CyberStretch owns all before him in that department. /P

It is theft.

Poser and it's formats are unique. There are no other formats like it.

Sure you have boning systems in other apps, but they are not the same.

When you import a Pz3 into Pov ray you lose all ability to pose it. With the DAZ' "PoseIt" app if it keeps all functionality it's theft IMO.

Even the Poser to LW, C4D, and Max plugins require that you have Poser.

If DAZ creates a new file format for all their obj models in order to have a killer Poser-like app, then that's fine with me. I will happily migrate to it if it's OS X native.

No, again, it is not. Microsoft and Apple had this fight a zillion years ago, and it was ruled that neither lawsuit nor counter-suit had any claim at all. (ref: Apple Computer, Inc. v. Microsoft Corp., supra, 799 F. Supp. 1006 (N.D. Cal. 1992) in which, and I quote: "purely functional elements were not protectable." ...and that's just for the wee copyright aspect that it may have. Let's trip over to patent law, shall we? After all, a .pz3 file isn't a statement or expression, it is a process, and processes are patentable, whereas copyrights are not. Curious Labs would, first and foremost, have to patent these formats... as a side issue, they have not. Also, elements necessary for compatibility wiith other programs are judged not to be protectable, as per studies referenced here: http://www.unt.edu/lpbr/subpages/reviews/band.htm The specific argument, to wit: "Later cases weakened this position, however, preparing the way for the decision which currently governs this area, Computer Associates v. Altai. Computer Associates rejected "thick" protection of software, and set a standard procedure for identifying which elements of a computer program are protectable. In particular, elements necessary for compatibility with other programs and with computer hardware were judged not to be protectable, giving a boost to the interoperable developers' position. Band and Katoh describe this case in detail, reviewing briefs by the parties and amici as well as the decision. They then discuss subsequent cases, both in the U.S. and Canada, which used the procedure established in Computer Associates, including the background of Lotus v. Borland, which was pending as this book went to press." Most legal type folks I've spoken with tend to agree that importing external files formats that aren't encrypted cannot be held as theft. OTOH, there was enough caution and disagreement over exporting formats (which would be in violation due to the fact that you would have to duplicate the patented process to create the file.) I guess I should preface all of this with the disclaimer that I am not a lawyer, so there you go... IANAL. OTOH, I have yet to see any evidence that a flat ASCII file, which is a process, would be considered copyrightable, when Curious Labs themselves have said that it is not copyrightable. /P

Perhaps a lawyer your not but you certainly qualify for captain of the debate team. Excellent information P man, and nicely summarized. I guess we'll all have to see how this shakes down in reality.

Yes, reality is very different from legality.

I seem to remember a conversation along these lines not too long ago.

One company wanted to protect their property from derivative knock-offs. I hope they respect other's property as well.

Attached Link: http://articles.corporate.findlaw.com/articles/file/firms/bm/bm000002

"derivative knocks offs" (the body suit, I presume) was a concern regarding the content of a file, not the format; you're confusing the issue between the two. Tell you what: Ask Curious Labs how much they pay in license fees for importing .dxf (AutoCAD) format, VRML (W3C consortium?), or .obj (Alias Wavefront) format, etc etc. (.3ds to my knowledge is an export format opened by Discreet to the public for portability and promotional reasons.) Not only that, but .obj format is the one format upon which most of Poser's proprietary formats are based... but still, I'll bet they pay absolutely nothing to import those formats. Given all this, and according to your own logic of the situation, Poser has been stealing, say, AutoCAD's intellectual property for years now. OTOH, I can still contend that they have not. Ask Openoffice.org how much they pay Microsoft for the ability to import Word documents... the answer there is "zero" as well. WordPerfect pays nothing to open .doc files, nor does Microsoft pay anything to open .wpd files. Lotus and Borland have been at it, same results... and here are specific cites that back me up on this: [ First](http://www.findlaw.com/01topics/10cyberspace/multimedia/gov_laws.html) [ Second](http://www.findlaw.com/01topics/10cyberspace/licensing/sites.html) [ Third](http://articles.corporate.findlaw.com/articles/file/articles/cblh/cblh000002/title/Subject/topic/Entertainment%20%20Sports%20Law_Art%20Law/filename/entertainmentsportslaw_1_161) A fourth, and more layman-legible version, is up top of this post. Jeff, these are all real-life (and very visible, and very much ruled-upon) examples here. What more do you require for me to convince you that opening a .pz3 file in something else besides Poser is perfectly legal? /P

Perhaps when were all doing it in the new DAZ app, which I am confident we all will be.

If the new app loads old figures from Poser that easily there may be a problem. It's called theft.<<< Well, the weight of court precedence states otherwise. Others and I have quoted actual court cases in other threads, but these seem to go into one orifice and out the other so I will not waste time repeating what has already been repeated often enough. However, Curious Labs may want to spend its time trying to make good on its advertised, promoted and publicly stated promises in regard to ----- - instead of trying to intimidate with threats of legal challenges. Actually, CL may want to spend ALL its time with ----- - so as to avoid its own legal problems. Time and patience is running out. CL is in more legal danger with ----- - than any potential competitor would be with an app than can read and/or write .cr2 or .pz3 files. Another PR disaster and CL could discover how much danger they truly are in. Payback and declaratory judgments can be costly and very painful. One has to remember that copyright law is not in place to create and protect a monopoly in the marketplace. The courts have made that quite clear over the years. Take care and be well. casamerica

For those of you who have not read the discussion on PP, or for one reason or another cannot/do not want to join PP to view it, I will crosspost my posts in which I discussed the legality issues: === Although IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer; not I'm ANAL), I had a situation a few years back that forced me to delve into similar discussions with a previous employer; hence my involvement in copyright and other legalities. Some of the basic facts: 1. Poser files are ASCII text and editable/readable by any number of applications; therefore one cannot determine if Poser or another application wrote the files. 2. Spatial coordinates cannot be copyrighted; as anyone could, per happenstance, come up with the same coordinates. 3. Program interoperability is a legal usage of "reverse engineering"; enacted, primarily, to limit the ability to create a monopolistic stronghold on users by one software developer. 4. Poser files primarily contain data that is not covered by copyright law (ref: Section 102(b)); in essence, they are "processes" or "procedures" to manipulate geometric meshes according to standard mathematical formulae. 5. Most Poser geometries are commonplace items, (ie, biological figures, geometric shapes, etc) that are unprotected designs according to copyright law (ref: Section 1302). 6. The existence of other third party applications and utilities that are allowed to access the Protected File Formats without copyright enforcement by CL; although these are "helper applications", the mere fact that CL has allowed others to use their Protected File Formats without prosecution in the past could be used against CL by any software developer. (ie, CL has failed to enforced its own perceived copyright protection, thereby setting the precedence that usage by third-party applications is an acceptable use.) When taking all of these things into consideration, one can see where the copyrightability and/or enforcement, if applicable, of the Poser files comes into question. IMHO, there would be enough for a case against CLs' copyright claims for a court to decide that the Protected File Formats do not constitute copyrightable material and, therefore, cannot be protected under copyright law. === [T]rademarks are usually specific graphics, symbols, words, etc, used to identify one product from another, (ie, Coca-Cola's name and the designs of the can and bottles). A case of trademark infringement that happened recently (December 1994) that I know of was Coke's use of a polar bear in its advertising. Of course, Polar Beverages, having a Polar bear (Orson) as it's trademark, sought to stop the Coke ads. IIRC, the outcome was that Polar could not claim Coke was infringing trademark due to the differences of the likenesses of the polar bears, or somesuch. (I cannot find an online version of the case, sorry.) The point I am making is that I doubt that CL could even trademark the Proprietary File Format extensions and, therefore, have no real legal recourse to stop third parties from using the files or formats based upon copyright, patent, and/or trademark grounds. IMHO, none of the above protections could be proven sufficiently to which a court would find a competitor infringing upon any protected material of CLs'. So, basically, CL seems to be SOL in trying to enforce any of these protections. The only thing that keeps competitors from using the files/formats seems to be out of respect for CL; which is not an entirely bad thing. === I have left out the other posts in the thread, because I believe that is the discretion of the people who posted whether they want their posts cross-posted here. Discuss away... ;0)

"Poser and it's formats are unique. There are no other formats like it." Ah. I see Cyber and Pengy have all ready been at that one. They're ASCII text files with a new extension. If you re-extension them to *.txt, any text editor opens them and resaves them with no loss or garble. "When you import a Pz3 into Pov ray you lose all ability to pose it. With the DAZ' "PoseIt" app if it keeps all functionality it's theft IMO." The 3D Spatial coordinates and the vertex inormation belong to the figure, as do the xyz rotation etc parameters. All the importing app needs is it's own unique translation routine for converting that data into bend, twist, deform and repositioning, and "wallah" - no theft. Both character studio and messiah have that capability on obj & 3ds mesh, the ability to deform and "pose" a mesh is not unique to poser. I think that what you're saying Jeff is ethical as opposed to legal or program capable, just not stating it that way, and that's a different question entirely.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

True dat. OTOH, I'm not even sure about the ethics - after all, any programmer would be a complete fool to not include import capabilities for as much stuff as he/she can, especially when you're creating a brand new program from scratch. Besides, the result will be a real nice competition between the two, and that in and of itself can be a good thing... for those of us who use these programs, anyhow. /P

Ah. Yeah... I don't have an opinion either way on the ethics of it - like you and cyber, just on the legal/technical. I was just observing that that maybe where JeffH was coming from "ethically theft, even if it's not illegal". Competitionwise, may not even be detrimental to either app to have the ability to read each others files: it's doesn't hurt either Word or WP to be able to open and read each others documents, nor does it hurt Quattro and Excel. It broadens the usage of both sets of tools, just as the "Open DWG" standards in architecural apps isn't killing off AutoCad anytime soon [in spite of Autodesk's initial paranoia] by making it simpler for other CAD apps to use a standardized *.dwg exchange format. Autodesk isn't going out of business because of it, neither is Corel because Excel will open a Quattro doc.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=970361

Err, speak of the devil, you may want to check the critter out :)

Yeah. Been there already. ;] Linked it in Radio Free also. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell