I must admit, when I looked at her gallery I didn't think "deep" thoughts. I just saw someone who seemed to want to "shock" viewers or just wanted to be talked about. However, I was checking it out immediately after reading the "MP as an advertising vehicle" thread so I must admit my perspective was somewhat biased because of what I'd read in that thread. As I've looked through posts since then, I have been pleasantly surprised to see Tisa attempt to contribute something to other Renderosity members - to answer questions and provide assistance. As I look back in life, I can think of some people I've known who had a great message but their "delivery" got in the way. I know it's described me at times. I'm thinking that may describe Tisa. I don't know. Tisa, I'm sure sooner or later you'll read my comments. Please accept them as a well-intentioned attempt to be fair to someone who I really don't know. If anything comes across as harsh or insulting, please understand that I don't mean it that way. If your artistic goal is to incite thought (mine often is), you've succeeded!

Well, I hate to think of incurring her wrath. She reminds me of Ironbear sometimes. He can be right on target and cutting at the same time. I'm well aware that anyone I mention may read this thread. I've not said anything I feel I need to hide. They might not agree with it, but it is an honest opinon. Hey, maybe Tisa is Doc Legume's little sister...LOL.

The debate between illustrative and interpretive art is old, and I would really rather not get into it now (Viagra headache). Suffice it to say that some people can't look at a Picasso or a Giacometti. Form means nothing to them. I accept that. This is not a comment on Tisa's images, BTW. The last time I went there, frankly, I was reminded of the old French style photography of the '40s and '50s and in that sense it was interesting. I was, however, disgusted by some of the comments left by visitors. Some of those involving chainsaws should have been removed by the mods IMHO. The question is: how does a mod decide to remove a piece. Are anger and dissent in this new Ashcroftian reality still possible? I respect anger. In most cases there's a reason for it, a meaning to it. It's a symptom that tells you something may be wrong. Oh! and I'd much rather see it expressed in an image or in art than with a knife or a gun. Now, if meaning's the criteria for deciding if a marginal image should stay or go, isn't that enough. Cheers, Q

All valid points of view (which I respect) from artists. I don't consider myself one much. I tinker. I try. I certainly can't get into discussions about art theory and speak with any kind of meaning. Lots of people here have been down the entire educational road. I'm just a common guy. When I speak, I speak with critique from a viewer point of view. As an artist, I offer little. A shame since I am so opinionated...GRIN.

Although I don't fear "incurring wrath," my goal as a member here is to build not tear down. That's one of the reasons I try to be careful about participating in certain types of threads. No one wins and the community is disrupted. I definately appreciate quixote's comment about anger ("In most cases there's a reason for it, a meaning to it. It's a symptom that tells you something may be wrong.") but I'd add one qualifier to that. Sometimes what's wrong (or incorrect or irrational) may be the viewpoint of the angry person. I also agree about it being better to express through art than physical means! As far as Chuck being an "artist" and comparing himself with those who've been down the entire educational road, Chuck, don't worry about it. In the one painting class I had I was astounded at the critiques I received about my final painting. The "artists" (including the instructor) loved the child-like fantasy style of my final piece and thought it was brilliant in the way it added to the image. I didn't have the heart to tell them (after they were so kind) that it wasn't intentional. I just couldn't paint very well. An education can expand your knowledge of many things. You can extend your skills. You can learn all sorts of fancy French names like "Matisse." But it doesn't make you an artist. FWIW, I'm not an artist either. However, anyone; Chuck, myself, Tisa, Mosca, is qualified to tell how they interpreted something. It seems that the key is how their opinion is communicated.

It's greatly overlooked.

I'm not a Tisa fan at all, and I didn't see the picture in question so I could be analocuting here (talking out of my ass), but from the descriptions of the pic, and the title, I'm guessing someone is working with some TG issues.

I've had a number of close TG friends over the years and I know that most people tend to dismiss the incredible amount of pain and angst that comes with gender dysphoria.

Yes, many TG people do find images of "she-males" distasteful and offensive when they are presented for the purpose of appealing to fetishistic types. We are talking about real people here, with a real problem, not a fairy tale chimera.

However, many also turn to that fetishistic expression as a means of validation.

I dunno. Just some thoughts.

Oh, and this anti-armpit hair thing? Where on earth did the notion come from that somehow women are suposed to only have bodyhair (and a very minimum at best) on their crotch? I am not a fan of this Hitler-moustache-pubes fad that has grown in the last 20 years. and I think pit hair can be very sexy. Kind of like a pubes preview.

That said: I still dissapprove (for all that's worth) of Tisa utilizing this forum to manipulate emotions and get attention.

Got a legitimate gripe with the mods for deleting your image? Take it up with them first. Don't try to cause dissention here just because you disagree with them.

If I'm having a party at my place and I invite guests (and this IS their place, and we ARE guests) and one of them starts bitching about me and complaining in general and trying to make the other guests think I'm an asshole, I'm going to tell them to shut the fuck up or get the fuck out.

Sounds like we agree on a few items, Hiram. Though you (and others) say it more articulately that I. Thanks for the insight on TG issues. While I've had the fortune of having a few gay friends, never have known anyone with gender issues that run that deep. So, I'm a bit naive. LOL @ the hair remarks. I'm a bit strange, I guess. Traveling as I have gives me more viewpoint on other cultures and habits. My preferences on hair change (my poor wife!). Sometimes, I trim it to "runway", sometimes, completely, and other times, I ask her to let it grow out. Sometimes, when she has forsaken her armpits for a week or so, I run my hand over it (it's soft after a week or so).

I tend to agree with most of the comments and qualifiers in this thread. And Hiram, I too dislike the attempts by some to manipulate the fora. Mostly my comments were meant as general observations. The only thing I vehemently dissagree with is the ChuckEvans protestations about not being an artist. I'd pick some of your work and some of your writings, Chuck, over a lot of the crap that I've actually had to judge over the years...including some of mine. Now that my system's back up and my health has improved, I feel like "gettin down" and making some nice images... See ya. Stay well. Q

"Yes, many TG people do find images of "she-males" distasteful and offensive when they are presented for the purpose of appealing to fetishistic types. We are talking about real people here, with a real problem, not a fairy tale chimera." Ok, sure--just as some women find the fetishizing of women's bodies offensive, etc., as I said. But is the TG community entitled to greater sensitivity in that regard than everyone else? If that's the reason the image was deleted, shouldn't all nudes be deleted? And what of the booming "she-male"/TG sex industry? My guess is that for every TG person who objects to the sexualizing of TGs in media, there are others who see it as a welcome step in the process of "mainstreaming." "However, many also turn to that fetishistic expression as a means of validation." This has been more my experience with TG acquaintances (a good-sized TG community out here). It's also not necessarily true that all nude images of TG persons are fetishistice--depends who's making them and why. There's a great movie--a kind of TG autobiography--that came out a few years ago called "Hedwig and the Angry Inch": I'd recommend it highly--it's funny, smart and incredibly brave.

I agree with Mosca - if you're gonna delete TG images, you have to delete nude women, and why not go the whole way and delete all the nude men as well - after all, they're usually hunks, they might make the rest of us feel rather inadequate :D Maybe then we can start deleting all the figures in clothing too, they might be better dressed than ourselves...... I know a number of TG and TS people myself - not the same thing in my understanding, as far as I know TS are of one sex but have the wrong body, due, according to current thinking, to hormonal influences in the womb. TG tend to be more fluid, often adopting male and female personae or just being somewhere in the middle - a nice idea :) I think it's a fine line between mainstreaming images of a group of people who tend to be always the outsiders, even in the gay community, and using them as sexual images to titillate. I don't recall ever seeing an image of an FTM guy posted, correct me if I'm wrong, I wonder if perhaps a woman with a penis appeals to men who might be sexually interested in another man, but only if he's made safe by having breasts and other female characteristics. An FTM is much more threatening, a woman who's really a guy? It doesn't sit well with patriarchal society. I didn't see Tisa's image, though I'd have liked to. I think her art is pretty good, like the pussy pic, 15:1, I thought it was interesting. And armpit hair? Women have hair in their armpits, so what? So do I..... I'd rather see a real woman than Barbie, guess that's not the opinion of a lot of people around here :) Once shaved off my pubes, that's a killer, ouch, the itching....... Don't know how anyone can do that, just cause they think it looks nice. I post mainly at rotica, I don't get a lot of people looking at my stuff here, probably because most is obviously gay - I'm also not such a good artist yet as many that post here. I posted a naked woman and got a lot more hits than usual..... It's what people want. A lot of people come here, they don't want to be disturbed or challenged, they want to see tits. Personally, I'd rather see something that makes me think. My lover is notorious for doing pics that are quite shocking, he does a lot of bdsm gay art and, in the past, has had, er, disagreements with people on rosity because of this, the old that's not art it's porn thing. Not true - it is art, good art, and there's a lot more in his pics than sex. Okay, maybe it's porn as well, I guess you can have both. As far as Tisa goes, I like to see someone post something that makes people argue and disagree about it, I'd call that more artistic than a bunch of bland Vikki Temple pics. Surely art is about communication, the ability to communicate something of yourself, whatever that may be, if it's anger, fair enough. And I think pulling the image was wrong, even if it was directed at rosity, if she has issues with them fair enough, they're not immune to criticism, surely? It's just book-burning, if that's the case....... BTW, I think she IS Legume.........

I don't think there's any reason to think that the image was deleted because of transgender content. I had an image in my gallery of a pseudohermaphrodite and never got any flack for it. By the way, 'transgender' is generally used to refer to the entire spectrum of alternative gender expression, while a 'transsexual' is a TG person who is actually going through a transition from one gender role to another with the implication that some form of permanent SRS (sex reassignment surgery)is to be performed, if possible. Also, the "nature vs. nurture" debate rages on, though there is increasing evidence of the in utero hormone influence.

"BUT I think, between the name, the picture itself, and the Age of the Artist... Didn't you mention that you were 16? Think those 3 added togther would have done it. " 'she' isnt 16, nor is 'she' a woman. 'she' is bebop, who has been banned from this site more times than anyone can count. back to stirring up shit as usual, probably getting off on the fact that hes managed to attract so much attention. some people never learn, nor do they seek the psychiatric help that they so obviously need. as for the image - i reported it to the admins myself, along with several other people. "No Rape. No Torture. No Sexual acts. No Physical arousal. No Genital contact with ANY object, other than sitting or clothing. No depictions of young humanoid characters in erotic, seductive, provocative poses or context. Additionally, any post or image can be removed at the discretion of staff if it is deemed unsuitable for this community. " i see at least two instances where that image violated the TOS. besides that, it was distasteful and obviously a cheap shot at seeing how far he can push the TOS -- as usual. thats what most of his gallery, his forum posts and all of his trolls in countless artists galleries are - an experiment at attracting negative attention and seeing how much the admins will let him get away with before they ban him again. but even after all this effort, bebop, all youll ever be is a passing nuisance... youre not saying anything that hasnt been said before, and your 'methods' only serve to alienate you even further from a community that obviously doesnt want you around to begin with. dont you have something better to do? this is getting old.

"Conduct - Zero Tolerance Renderosity maintains a Zero Tolerance on certain behaviors within the community. These include, but are not limited to the following. Intentional practices that affect the normal operations of the community (Admins will take whatever steps are necessary to restore service)." as far as im concerned your recent campaigns fall pretty heavily under that category - as do your assaults on other members. "Members/Users found practicing these behaviors receive; Deletion of the post/s. First event - warning by email and/or IM. Second event Forum Suspension for 1 or 7 days or Temporary Community ban for 3 or 7 days. Third event Membership revoked, and access to the community permanently blocked. This includes any duplicate accounts for the same person. Renderosity considers this information private and confidential. However, there may be certain situations that necessitate otherwise. " its just amusing bebop, that YOU of all people are posting about the TOS. youve been banned from renderosity what... 10-15 times now? glad to see youre working on your next ban... we'll miss you.

I think that you confuse with Tisa Posette but why leave the truth between the manner of your oneself promotion?

As I stated in the other locked thread There is more to this than what most members see. When we remove an image and or ban a member, The admin and mods have a very long talk about what should be the right thing to do and what is the best way to deal with it. We will not go into the details, but we will say that it takes a lot to get banned from Renderosity. Please remember that Sending "Fuck you" e-mail and IM's to us is one clear and quick way to break the TOS. Also, we do not want members to start pointing fingers at other members. We feel that this thread has no further point and is therefor locked.