Attached Link: http://www.pixelfader.com

Well i know i'm going to get some criticism for this one but here goes, as anyone else as uninspired as i am with regards to what they've seen at Renderosity lately. There have been a few good images in the gallery but it seems everyone is doing the same stuff. That pertains to marketplace and galleries etc. I see more light and face sets than I can shake a stick at and 99% of them are just mainpulations of the dials. Galleries are made up more and more of portraits rendered in poser with a shadowy lighting set-up and no real customization beyond whatever "bought" texture the person has gotten. Is this art? Or is it using someone elses work and showing it off? I also see an rediculous amount of advertising in the galleries for this and that product. Which is basicall the renderosity community feeding off each other. This is not to say that everything is that way, there are still the standbys' that continue to turn out amazing artwork and once in a while a peace in the marketplace worth buying but i've just been very uninterested lately....it'll pass i'm sure. No more bitching for me...lol

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=266913

... we'd see this:

As i said, there are some peaces that are amazing. Just too much else thats all the same....

You might want to take another look at that one, rudipooimf..Someone mentioned in the comments that you could never do something like that in Poser, but I'm betting you could in P5 - it would just take so long, you might as well go ahead and paint it

i've put a lot of thought into these kinds of things as of late... not quite sure i'll be able to say this in a way that all facets will make sense to all people who might read it, but: inspiration, or the lack thereof... there are a lot of "pretty" images out there, and images that seem to be striving for that technical perfection, and images that are patterned directly off of other artist's compositions [think Royo], etc... but what truly seems to be lacking in the art that is generated as a whole is the art of storytelling or engagement of the audience... technically sound and "pretty" pictures i suppose have a place, but give me imperfection any day that engages me, makes me want to see more [the next picture frame] or "hear more of the story", makes me curious, makes me FEEL anything over all the pretty pictures in this world...

Attached Link: Art Theory Forum

Because I'm amazingly unobservant, I just discovered Renderosity has an Art Theory Forum, and, on it, Lyrra posts "Ten Gallery Images to See that You May Not Have" which crosses gallery boundaries and brings forward some really well done graphics that may have escaped notice while everyone is obsessing about who is and who is not on the Hot 20, and who is and who is not an artist (which is a horse beaten so dead I'm surprised it can still struggle to its feet). It seems to be that finding the graphic artists who are doing something original and sharing them with other people is much more beneficial than bleating on and on about how there is no art on Renderosity. I'm not an artist, and will never claim to be one, and I'm not egotistical enough to say that I can tell the difference between good art and bad, but I will say that there are graphics being posted that make me pause and admire the creative spirits behind them. They are there. You just have to dig past the cliches to find them. Thanks Lyrra....I'm going to be checking back. :)

Um. That is a painting. A real one. The point is made by the PRODUCT CREDITS. Read Rembrandt's remarks in the comments. Jeez.

This is more of a training ground for would be artists and hobbyists than anything else. If you want "real" art this not where you should be. Plenty of sites out there by professions, if that's what you're looking for.

Training ground or not, a part of me agrees with rudipooimf. I find myself viewing less and less images every month. Beginners or professionals - that doesn't matter. I just want to view works that somehow speak to me... and unfortunately there seems to be less and less of those. Why? I have no idea. I see the same thing in my own works. They're not particularly interesting, they're lacking the spark. As soon as I figure out why, I'll do something about it. In the meantime I'll just sit and wonder.

Attached Link: My CG Doodles

I actually don't use the Galleries to show off my artistic talent. I post images there just to play around with a model I've made. Like saving doodles in a sketch pad. So most of the images aren't really my best work. Perhaps other people are doing the same thing. And you are expecting everything to be high quality? ScottA

I agree with spratman.....most of the things in the galleries are peeps having fun and practicing. There's nothing wrong with that. If you are looking to get "inspired" by someone else's work then maybe you should question whether you are an artist either or just having fun with it...

What exactly IS 'real' art anyway? After taking 4 Art history classes for my Fine Art degree, I still don't know the answer to that one. I know what I like, I know what I don't. It's very subjective. NY Mayor doesn't like a Black Madonna with dung and pulls funding saying its not 'real' art. Phooey! I keep seeing threads in the Poser forum about its not pure Poser, it's not art, its all a MP. I click on these peoples username to see their galleries, and often (not always) they don't have anything posted to see. If you want change, and you think you know what 'art' is, then ask for more of a particular style. Be the one that changes and floods the galleries with pictures in the style YOU like. Send out a Challenge. See what people can do. As for this being a pro or hobbiest place, different forums here have different people in them. Some are VERY proffesional people in the 'business.' I love reading these threads. I don't think its a Flame war and I always think its on the topic of Poser. IF you want change, then be a rebel and post, and request, and challenge. Good subject, interesting ideas. Now it's time for me to get back to work. :)

I walk into art galleries and rarely see what I like. I wander through the Poser galleries almost every night before retiring and I actually think the work is improving. There are some nights that I want to shew ground glass so I won't write down exactly what I think of the drek and some nights my hands fall off complimenting. I expect less of Poser-- because it has a strong taste of hobby but then it always surprised me. There has not been a night where I have not seen something that inspired me-- that's enough. There's also not been a night when I've not seen totally flushable crap. Big deal. I think some of the feeling of "it's not enough" may be one artist going through a period of growth-- Yeah, I'm thinking of you Eowyn-- and not knowing where the next change is going to take him or her. Nothing looks good then, because it's not what you want to do. You know, most confident artists probably wouldn't cruise the galleries at all-- it would probably be a waste of time to them, they know what they are trying to accomplish. And this is a self-realisation that I'm not there yet. I am in fractals, I very rarely look at the fractal gallery though I have many friends there. I know what I want to do, and if this is the time to do it. Emily

Have I ever seen a Poser image that moved and inspried me? NO.Have I ever seen a Poser image that I wanted to own? No!....untill today.Go back two pages to "Green eyes,free for Preteen Morph by bk321467SkyNet,and look at the last picture he posted.But please be very quiet. SWAMP

Attached Link: An angel sleeps....

That's a beautiful graphic. I don't know if it is "art" as the purists would like to define it, but it certainly was created by someone very skilled. Thank you for pointing it out.

ART:Noun The creation of beautiful or significant things

I would like to say it is...but someone will object and say it cannot be and give whole lists of reasons why. But if art is something that moves your heart and fills your eye with something that makes you pause, then I would think this is art. I'm really glad you mentioned it....I've been feeling wore out by these art threads. Thank you again.

And you are expecting everything to be high quality? With some of them, God forbid you say it isn't. :-)

Well i'd like to believe 8 years as a professional graphic artist and almost 20 doing fine art qualify me at least as having some artistic talent. As far as 3d goes i'm still learning of course, i was just stating that for a while Renderosity was a very exciting place to view artwork and what people are producing, lately it just seems to be the SOS, just a different day. Just an oppinion as i said before and i was prepared to take a beating..lol

I think that it makes sense that the gallery is full of mediocre art and a few gems shine out. I mean, isn't that the way that anything in life can be taken? Art is one of those things that is personally subjective. I do agree that many pieces of Poser art that I've seen are just compositions. However, Poser is mainly a composition, animation and rendering tool. If the user doesn't have access to painting or modeling software, or the inclination to do so, then that's what you're left with. I see Poser more along the lines of photography than traditional art. Anyone can take a snapshot, but if you're taking a snapshot of something you built then maybe that's different.

.

"(which is a horse beaten so dead I'm surprised it can still struggle to its feet)"....? oh okay I'll remove the cables and pulleys from him then. I didn't know he wasn't supposed to get up.

This is what happens when everyone has essentially the same tools. Ever taken an intro figure-drawing class? You pretty much get 20 of the same drawing, except from different angles. Give 100 people flour, yeast and water, most of them will end up with some variation of bread--some better than others, but still basically bread. That's one issue--limited toolbox. The other is limited imagination: what do you do with the tools you have? What do you do when you know how to make a pretty good loaf of bread? Keep making the same bread over and over? Out of that 100 people, you're only gonna get maybe one pretzel.

I guess I should apologize for that remark...it's just that we don't seem to get anywhere with these discussions. Or if we do, I guess I keep missing the progression. :(

I see alot of people agreeing that we 'expect less" of poser. Or that Poser is just a hobbyist mentality tool etc. That wasn't my orignal point at all really, my point was, at one point this community produced amazing things, i just think now it's gotten into a "commecialized" rut. Lets see how quickly we can render images of products we like, lets see how quickly we can get our products to market. It takes me weeks to do one peace of artwork when i see some people posting 3 images a day. That might speak to how slowly i draw or how cookie cutter the galleries and marketplace has become, who knows.

We never get anywhere with them because (1) the people who have been here for a while are now almost completely enured to the cookie-cutter galleries and (2) the newbies see it and actually think someone will listen to them when they comment on it. SSDD

dialyn, it's a subject that will always be discussed with no resolution. ( hense the wires and pulleys to keep standing the horse up ) there are way to many points of view for any full agreement to be reached. ( lord knows I don't bother with getting involved in the discussion about it any more, since it's a never ending one. ) just as the "is cg art or not" is never really resolved. ( sub subject to what is art ~wink~ ) my comment was meant as a somewhat humourous explanation of how the horse gets back on it's hooves.

yunno rudipooimf is right. I browsed the galleries yesterday evening, and found that I was passing over a hell of a lot of pics. Usually the ones with a face in the thumb that says to me, "another portrait". I am guilty of doing this myself. I haven't posted in a while now because I'm bored with that kind of image. I have seen and done a million head shots of Vic and for me its tired. on the other hand this is still new to others and I'll give them that. Anyway yesterday I found myself clicking on the thumbnails that showed something different, a more involved scene or something that stands out, I also noticed that some of them didn't have very many comments. Maybe its an evolution the "artist" has to go through to move to something more.

A few points. First the quality and abundance of freebies and items in the marketplace has improved dramatically in the last year. Alot of these things, poses, lights, preset cameras and textures allow users to easily put together a decent looking render by using just presets without actually considering anything except what pieces to use: Texture from Al, Pose by Bob, Lights by Cathy.... Creating this kind of finished looking art is an amazment to someone not use to being able to draw even the simplest figure. So they get proudly posted. The problem is not that we all use the same tools, but that many of the posters are using the same pallet. Give 10 people clay and you'll get 10 different things. However include a few molds, some standard paints and your going to start seeing alot of repetion. Blame the merchants, blame a society that revels in instant gratification, whatever. The amazing thing is not that we see so many cookie cutter images, but every once in a awhile someone manages to make something special using those same cookie cutters. Face it. Talent is a rare thing, just because you increase the membership by 10 fold does not mean your going get even one more talented person. I look at just about every thumbnail in the gallery. I'm looking for one of two things: A really neat image that appeales to me or something that I believe I could make some contribution to, through my critisim. So no I don't things are getting any worse, maybe it's cause I don't expect that much to beging with. But I love being surprised. Just my 2 cents Jon

I'm a bit curious just why it bothers anyone? If the galleries suck, look somewhere else. Or does the general discussion of how bad the galleries have gotten somehow serve to raise one's status by being so astute as to have noticed it? One thing is fairly certain, if one thinks this message is going to change thousands, you may want to reconsider. I doubt seriously people will be slapping thier forehead and say, "Well, shit! I had better change my whole way of thinking." It reminds me of my sister when she was a teenager pointing at different girls (strangers) at school and mall and say stuff like, "Eeeuuuuwww! What an ugly dress she has on!" As an older brother, I wondered at the motivation for such a remark. I think it was to somehow elevate her self-esteem. I always asked her, "Why do you care what she wears?" I don't think she ever had an answer. The originator of the thread has mentioned (I think---because his sentence has a typo I'm not sure of) something about getting inspiration from looking at the galleries. Time for me to wind up my message and divert the "flaming" to me...but if one is really an artist, why does one need to look over other artists work in order to get inspired? Or am I just misunderstanding the use of the word, "inspiration"?

A palette is a tool.

Of course it won't change anything--but people talk about politics, too, right? And the weather.

I am not an artist so this probably isn't relative, but I don't look for inspiration as much as I am looking at techniques other people use. Artists have studied and copied other artists throughout time, and then eventually break into their own style. So do musicians. So do authors. It is the rare bird that is born with all the talent and knowledge they need to create something original the first time out.

I think the "inspiration" question cuts a bunch of different ways. I have a songwriter friend in Nashville who won't listen to the radio, ever, at all, because if he does it infects his brain and his subconscious ends up stealing stuff from other people's work. I have writer friends who read 4 or 5 hours a day--more than they write--because, they say, how else are you supposed to learn what's possible? Can I just say, too, that what really strikes me in the galleries here is the great innocence--the almost total lack of irony; Elvis on velvet for the 21st century--pure, unselfconscious kitsch, a true reflection of what's going on in the glands of the broader culture. Very cool, the things that happen when you really democratize art.

I mean, you could write a dissertation.

The whole concept of "Art" became so sliced up, divided, devalued and divisive that it may as well not exist now. It's more slippery than a bucket of oiled eels and harder to pin down than the true name of (insert deity of your choice here). The only honest statements anyone can make regarding a painting, sculpture, musical work etc is "I like it" or "I don't like it".

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

Well, the irony is that I will spend hours brooding over a graphic and it still comes out looking like amateur time anyway. Time spent can't compensate for a lack of talent. I don't read fiction for the same reason your friend doesn't listen to the radio....because the nature of the brain is to unconsciously plagarize when it finds something it likes. But I can't do that with the graphics. I'm not doing nudes or portraits so my ability to copy has been greatly limited in the Poser world, and yet I lack the ability to do something really original. There you go. I'm a Marketplace addict because of a lack of talent. Not art. But Elvis on velvet. Sigh.

I agree with dialyn in looking at some stuff if only to say, "How tha heck did s/he do that?" Or, "I didn't know Poser could do that!" Purely in a techinical way. As I've stated before, I don't look much because the technical superiority depresses me. But, as others have said, there is always a chance of "infection". But I still don't hear an answer to my question. Why does the quality of the galleries bother you (you = those who agreed with the originator of the thread)? It doesn't reflect upon YOUR talent. In fact, assuming the assessment is correct, then it helps make yours look wonderful by comparison. If boredom is your complaint...then another question: Why not just go somewhere else and seek "true art"?

Art is just art... stupid comment but it's true. Some people have lots of natural talent, I am not one of them.. however, things like Poser, Bryce, etc. are great TOOLS to help the non artists like me bring out the ARTIST within them. I for one am glad for tools like this. I've only used Poser for a couple of weeks, and am still playing around with it, but can see the tremendous amount of help it will inspire in my understanding of anatomy, lighting, etc. Klutzo "wished he could draw" artist wannabe. www.klutzoplex.com

Is it this time of the week again??? YAWN.

L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.

Maybe I have missed the true point of the galleries. I see them as a place to post an image that you are happy with and have spent some time on(or you got lucky and it went fast) and you want to share it with friends. If it was only for masterpieces, it would be a pretty small gallery.
One of the things my online graphic friends and I talk about is the glazed-over look our real life friends and family members get when we show them our graphics and try to talk about our Poser/Bryce/etc. Renderosity's Galleries are an outlet for us. I have only posted one image in the Poser Gallery(and it was a silly one), but I have posted many in the forums. I do not ever expect ohhhhs and ahhhs, but I want to feel free to share in an atmosphere of understanding.
Diane

Why does the quality of the galleries bother you I can only speak for myself on this, okay? I work as a professional designer -- scenic design and previsualization animations for the stage. I use Bryce and Poser almost exclusively, to rather surprising results for low-end, off-the-shelf software. But when I talk about my work with other 3d artists, it's almost embarrassing when they start in on Poser -- or, as some of them refer to it, "the naked chick software". In the eyes of the larger 3d community, Poser is a means to create easy softporn and, as a result, is dismissed because of the limitations imposed on it by the larger Poser community. Our galleries are a stunning example, folks: pages of gorgeous women, most of them in varying stages of undress. And that's fine. But that's all we ever do with it, it seems. The relatively few exceptions are almost shocking and wind up getting pointed out for their uniqueness as much as their technical ability. Big deal. So what?, you probably say. So what is that Poser is a software highly dependent on its users for things to work with. There are a few companies like DAZ out there making stuff, but the overwhelming majority of it comes from individual users, mostly hobbyists. And the overwhelming majority of stuff they create is yet more slinky lingerie, "impractical armour", and catsuits with transparency factors that turn them into little more than a thong and a band-aid across the nipples. Hey, that's what the market wants!", you answer, and you're right. But it also leaves the CL in a tougher sell position on the larger market, because all it gets seen for is yet another bevy of vacant-eyed, cookie-cutter supermodels. Poser will always be a hobbyist software, no matter how much CL invests in collision detection, hair creation, clothing gravity, and everything else they're putting into this thing. It could be a high-power tool, but it won't get there... and we'll have to shoulder some of the blame for that. Just my two cents. Others will, no doubt, feel differently.

atthisstage
I think there is some hope....read the list of "I wants" that showed up in this forum recently. It was common, everyday things..not more "Vicki Slavewear". I have seen more rooms and normal backgrounds being made over the last 6 months. Not quite as many temples. More historical models, less sci-fi.
Diane

SamTherapy: "The only honest statements anyone can make regarding a painting, sculpture, musical work etc is "I like it" or "I don't like it"." Nope. It's the beginning of the appreciation and the beginning of the real critique. Afterwards you learn about composition, colours, vision, stuff... Then you can make honest informed statements. atthisstage: "Poser will always be a hobbyist software, no matter how much CL invests in collision detection, hair creation, clothing gravity, and everything else they're putting into this thing." Ummm, it will be a hobbyist software if you want it to be a weekend hobby. You could make a hobby of Maya, Softimage or 3D Studio, too, although they are much more expensive. Poser (Bryce even more so, of course :-)) is perfectly capable of producing good pictures. You just need to spend a lot of time on them. (At some stage, of course. After you learn the techniques, you will make your pictures faster.) Tools are not that important. The finished picture is. The idea is. And snobbery is snobbery, whatever they call it.

-- erlik

Attached Link: No Nekkid Vickies

I don't post my stuff here, or haven't yet anyway, because (1) If I purchase something I don't feel the need to advertise the product in credits and (2) the majority of my renders have Poser stuff brought into Bryce and rendered there. And I don't do nekkid Vickies, nor temples. I also hesitate to post because my stuff is a little different from the norm and I'm sure I'd be crucified over the simple portraits I've just begun to do. If anyone's still reading and is curious the link to latest thumbnails is above.

"Why does the quality of the galleries bother you (you =those who agreed with the originator of the thread)?" It doesn't. I love it. Folk art for the new millenium, dude. "Poser will always be a hobbyist software, no matter how much CL invests in collision detection, hair creation, clothing gravity, and everything else they're putting into this thing. It could be a high-power tool, but it won't get there... and we'll have to shoulder some of the blame for that." Sure, the main audience for Poser is the hobbyist--why not? It offers relative ease of use, and if you spend a few bucks on textures, poses, etc., you can whip up a more-or-less acceptable render in no time at all. The fact that the prevailing aesthetic here is largely about ladies in skimpy outfits does not diminish the usefulness of the software for those with other things in mind--yourself as a prime example. Let the scoffers scoff--they're completely missing the point. Sooner or later, Poser will fall into the hands of capital "A," fine-art artists (as opposed to the commercial or graphic artists whose work is much admired here). That's when things will start to get interesting. "And snobbery is snobbery, whatever they call it." Well, duh.

atthisstage: If I understand your answer to my question, then you are ashamed of the Poser galleries because of what others think of you when you say you use Poser. (i.e., you get stereotyped) If you were a white person, would you be ashamed because the KKK exists? Your work should stand for itself and not be judged by a gallery of largely strangers. Spit: Your stuff is quite nice and interesting (only looked at the "new" link). As to a requirement to list what you used? I think it's largely voluntary. Regardless, your work (largely) seems nice.

"If you were a white person, would you be ashamed because the KKK exists?" If, in the nightmare universe, I was forced to be a white person--yes, I'd be ashamed.

If you were a white person, would you be ashamed because the KKK exists? Sometimes I am, bud. But that's beside the point. Yes, it's all in the tools and what you do with them (It's a major rush when people look at my set renders and freak when I tell them they were done in Bryce), but no matter how good the tool, there's always the word on the street to deal with. And the WOTS on Poser says it's not worth it, based on the images we produce. Not saying anybody needs to change anything. Just think we should be aware of the world outside Poserland.

Mosca: Well, I wouldn't be ashamed. I had nothing to do with the KKK's creation, don't support it, and don't believe in it. I'm a unique being that shouldn't be judged by what that group of whites does no more than Colen Powel should be judged by the perpetrators of some drive-by gang shooting in Harlem.

"based on the images we produce." Why did you say "we" if you hate being associated with the artwork in the gallery? You've already stated people are surprised at the work you do using Bryce and Poser. So, let it stand on its own. In different words, I kind of think it's a shame that people can't pursue what it is that makes them happy and satisfied without hearing a complaint that "their" work is somehow embarrassing someone else. I guess I think it's a shame because I suppose I'm one of those lowclass Poser "artists" that make you ashamed.

"Just think we should be aware of the world outside Poserland." What? No, stop--you're confusing me!!! "Well, I wouldn't be ashamed. I had nothing to do with the KKK's creation, don't support it, and don't believe in it. I'm a unique being that shouldn't be judged by what that group of whites does no more than Colen Powel should be judged by the perpetrators of some drive-by gang shooting in Harlem." Not altogether true. Whether you think so or not, you're a beneficiary of the eurocentric, white supremacist philosophy that this country was founded on (assuming you're white, of course). I mean, why do you think black people live in Harlem--'cause the Hamptons aren't funky enough?

"I guess I think it's a shame because I suppose I'm one of those lowclass Poser "artists" that make you ashamed." Pay no mind. Keep doing what makes you happy. What are you doing reading this snobby thread in the first place? Surely you know what a huge waste of time this is.

"Not altogether true. Whether you think so or not, you're a beneficiary of the eurocentric, white supremacist philosophy that this country was founded on (assuming you're white, of course)" I am a beneficiary of lots of things in my lifetime as well as things before my lifetime. I also have been hurt by things that happened before my lifetime and during my lifetime. BUT, that has nothing to do with me and who I am as a person and how I act. Do I wish some things had never happened? Yes. Do I wish some things HAD happened? Yes. But, I shouldn't run around hiding my white face because of something I had nothing to do with. And before it turns into a discussion of how this race or that race screwed someone one over, it was an analagy attempting to give a (somewhat) similar example of the feelings about the Poser gallery displayed above.

Yes, Mosca, you're right about that. I guess it's just the second or third time I've heard someone disparage the Poser galleries in recent weeks. (the Tisa personality springs to mind) And I thought of the same thing I explained above...just why does it bother the complainers?

"BUT, that has nothing to do with me and who I am as a person and how I act." Ok, I know we're way OT here, but surely you don't really believe this. Do you think you just appeared in the world, free of the effects of history and culture? If you did, you are truly one of a kind. Anyway, on with this week's art rant...

So, actually, Mosca, what you seem to be saying is the Poser gallery can be blamed on the effects of history and culture. That being the case, I suppose, then there is nothing that can be done about it because all the people who post there are victims/products of what happened hundreds of years ago. Maybe THAT's why these discussions never change anything in the galleries...LOL.

It strikes me that I'm rather ashambed as a human being that ignorant people still exist....as a child of the 60's, I rather though we would be farther along the line of civilization than we've gotten but in many ways it seems as if intolerance and bigotry is more alive and well than ever (and not just in people who are of European descent). What does any of that have to do with taking Poser seriously or not so seriously as art? Not much, in my mind. Am I ashambed to post in the galleries? No. I'm rather embarressed to have come out of the beginner gallery when I see someone really talented post and make my stuff look like a tacky postcard in comparison. But I'm not sure worrying over whether or not something is art is really useful. What I would like to see more of is encouragement of those people trying to break through the Poser stereotypes, and more education about what could be done beyond the Marketplace offerings. I treasure the people who provide those extra tutorials that explain some of the more mysterious aspects of creating a graphic. And the people who lead by example. The only people who really bug me are the ones who complain and don't offer any alternatives or solutions. But that's just me.

"So, actually, Mosca, what you seem to be saying is the Poser gallery can be blamed on the effects of history and culture." Bingo!

I don't think blame is the right word. The effects of history and culture influence us all and we are not diminished by recognizing that. We can either blame or credit our history for what we are, but it is an essential part of us. And if we are intelligent, we use that knowledge of our history in a postive and creative way. And I really need to proof. That sentence up there should have read "I rather thought we would be farther along the line of civilization than we've gotten but in many ways it seems as if intolerance and bigotry are more alive and well than ever (and not just in people who are of European descent)." Bleah.

dialyn--I just looked at a couple of images in your gallery; they're pretty interesting. The Grandmother's Tale struck me in particular. Liked the poem, too.

That's very kind of you. Thank you.

dialyn - thank you. That thread has been going on and off for quite a while. I often don't have much time for it, due to overwork and a slow connection. I do my best to be as objective as possible when selecting and commenting on images. Before I started it I had no idea we had a fractal gallery, much less that it had so many great images in it. And now to answer the thread: What is art? Visual art is the desire to communicate in visual terms something from the artist to the viewer. It may be specific, or it may be more general. The success of the piece can be judged on wether or not the piece has communicated what the artist desired. The media that the artist has used is entirely irrelevant. Many of the artists here are happy with the artistic statement of 'this is beautiful' or 'this is a beautiful (sexy?) person'. However, there are many who have more to say than that. Digital image tools have given more people the chance to express their vision, but as Sturgeon once said "90% of everything is cr*p" I can honestly say that I have seen more bad poser renders than any one person should legally be subjected to in one lifetime. Why do I continue? because I have also seen work that speaks to me in ways that mere words cannot express - images that will remain in my memory forever. For those images and artists, I am willing to put up with a great deal of student level work. Lyrra

i have a master's degree, as many of you know, in fine and applied art. there was a time, a couple years, or so, back, when our gallery really inspired me. now, i go there...get bored...really quickly...like page 1. i still like the rhino forum, here. the rest??? you tell me. some say it is "commercialism". me, i say it is too many newbies without a clue about design concepts....composition, lighting, and...FEELING the art. you can use steggyzz's textures, and antwotnio's lights, and maresh's hair....and, on into infinity....but, guess what...all the folks who created the products that are being used had a flavor, a feeling in mind. you can use those products out of the box, and, elude yourself that you are creating "art"...actually, it is more like paint by numbers. that is what is wrong with our galleries.

"Visual art is the desire to communicate in visual terms something from the artist to the viewer. It may be specific, or it may be more general. The success of the piece can be judged on wether or not the piece has communicated what the artist desired." "If you want to communicate, use the telephone." Richard Hugo "The media that the artist has used is entirely irrelevant." "The medium is the message." Marshall McLuhan

"i have a master's degree, as many of you know, in fine and applied art." I did not know that. Boy, am I impressed. I mean, really, REALLY impressed. I'm a little out of breath right now, even.

yeah, that and 35 cents will get me a phone call. and, i don't know how much i need to add to that 35 cents to get myself into the "hot 20", here. and, before you get too impressed...suffice it to say, i loved to party, and was just a mediocre student...story of my life :*)

Art is communication...a language. A manifestation of the soul. When I write I don't read- after all, when I speak I can't always listen. When I work on images I don't look at other people's work. When I don't work on images I go; I listen; I become; I see. I don't post to galleries because I'm not ready to speak. I will, one day. It has nothing to do with technique, little to do with originality, but much to do with message. If you speak to me on a subject I care about, I tend to listen. I care. Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Let us stipulate that the portion of (what for lack of a better term, we can refer to as good art) in the galleries has decreased of late. Why is this? Either the number of good artists has decreased or the number of not so good artists has increased. I think the latter is more likely the main reason. More people are using the program every day. Poser has moved from its roots as more of an aid for traditional artists and is now seen as an artistic tool in its own right. Certainly the number of hobbyist users has increased. Lets face it; the serious artists who had any interest in Poser have probably already tried it and decided to use it or not. There is always a potential market among users of more high-end packages but I think the lions share of sales for the foreseeable future will be with hobbyists, web site designers, etc., people whose primary interest is not necessarily creating serious art. Now real artists may be trained in and gain their inspiration from traditional art but I dont think this is the case for many people. Consider the fact that art education is public schools has declined over the years. Mention museum to many people and they will think of tyrannosaurs before Titian. As someone alluded to, todays society emphasizes a MTV quick cut, sound bite, fast food, disposable, Brownie snapshot approach to life. People, especially young people are less likely to read newspapers, much less books. Music video, video games, and the Internet influence them. It should be no surprise that you end up with a number of Vicky in temple homages to Frazeta, Vicky as Britney, or anything with Vicky naked. Nor, should it be surprising that the quality of many of these images doesnt live up to the high standards of some. I think more and more Poser users see it as a fun, liberating pastime. They may not necessarily have the time or the patience, or even the inclination to spend hours or days perfecting an image. The art (and I do consider it art) they produce fulfills a desire and brings them a sense of pleasure and satisfaction. I certainly dont think anyone sets out to produce a bad picture. The galleries continue to serve what I think is their purpose, to give people an opportunity to share something they enjoy, warts and all. I think the simmering discontent from more serious artists with the galleries is merely a reaction to the reality of Posers changing place in the world. I imagine the Beverly Hills gentry felt a similar sense of dismay when the Clampets moved in next door. All is well; the foundations of art have not crumbled, just shifted, as they will do. You dont have to lower your standards to take a more ecumenical view of art and try to appreciate what the new school is trying to say, even if you dont like the result. You can offer helpful comments. Above all, you can show, by example, your own ideas. Everyone wants to improve, even if theyre not real artists. True, you may find less inspiration in the galleries, but as a couple of people have said, perhaps thats the best place to be looking for it anyway.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Attached Link: http://homepage.mac.com/kflach/media/BabyS.mov

You want art? Try this. It evokes emotion. It intrigues. It's only 559k and requires Quicktime. It's not pretty though.

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

Geez, has it been two weeks already?

...... Kendra

No, just seems like it. But I can't stop myself from adding the following: The percentage of images that bore you will increase as the number of people posting images increases. And given that the number of members continues to increase... Limitations on a medium are not set by others; they are set by the laws of physics and by you. It should not be surprising that an application called "Poser" is typically used to create portraits. I personally would not compare Poser work to painting, though it could be used as a basis for that type of work. I tend to view it more as a type of photography in which the photographer has more control over the model.

Egads... Same old rant, about the same old gripes, that has been happening here every week, for who knows how long now. Maybe they should open a "Renderosity Sucks" forum here. It would probably help to stop about half of the posts that get put here in the 'Poser Forum'.

lmckenzie: "As someone alluded to, todays society emphasizes a MTV quick cut, sound bite, fast food, disposable, Brownie snapshot approach to life. People, especially young people are less likely to read newspapers, much less books. Music video, video games, and the Internet influence them. It should be no surprise that you end up with a number of Vicky in temple homages to Frazeta, Vicky as Britney, or anything with Vicky naked." The problem is not in MTV or music videos, but in thoughtless immitation. Video is as much cinematography as a full film. Have you known that the video for Michael Jackson's "Thriller" has as many editing cuts as an average feature film? (Sorry, unceratin about exact terminology.) But not many people are prepared/able to put that much effort into their creations. So they create something that's superficially like something they've seen. And then MTV gets blamed for Sturgeon's 90%. Of course, we could talk about instant gratification, but as somebody who couldn't draw to save my life, I'm probably not the right person to do that.

-- erlik

Is the purpose of art reveal or deepen a mystery? Do the ends justify the the means? All I know is that the purpose of art is not to teach, preach or coerce. It is to learn, create and inspire. If it tells a story, makes you feel something or makes you wish you were there its art. Poser out of the box is probably not art exept that of it's creators, but you have the ability to make it your own art when you add your personaliy to the textures, the shapes the lights and the poses. If you can create your own models so much the better. It is a tool nothing more - nothing less. - TJ

You think the current galleries have no inspiration? What about the "item of the day" pictures? That's when every member and his brother makes pictures with the latest thing: Body Jewels, DAZ Gorilla, and now, the DAZ House Mouse. Why do something original when you can plunk a pre-made model with a pre-made texture in a pre-made pose into your scene and have "art"? {All I know is that the purpose of art is not to teach, preach or coerce. } The purpose of art is to get your message across, even if it's just to entertain. To say art is made just to say "I did that" misses the point. Then again, we're talking about a population that clicks on nude thumbnails and were the most-viewed images are nudes (and not even great nudes). This is a community where a thought-provoking piece gets no views, but another nude vicky gets thousands of views.

Too many critics, not enough artists. I'm always amazed that people with the same tools that I have can create such beautiful art. I think texture, lighting and a good imagination are the main ingredients. Who am I to criticize someone else's art or the thought and feeling they put into it?

Poser 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Pro 2014, 11, 11 Pro

Palette is a tool?... Depend on what definition you're using, but I'm not gonna get into that argument. The point is, which I believe we both agree, is that the availibilty of pre-made settings for poser inevidibly leads to repetition. Why do the endless parade of "Nude Vicky in a Temple" images none the less keep getting lions shared of hits? Duh, the same reason that Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler, etc etc etc ad nauseum keep selling despite repitious photography, poses and subjects. Sex sells. Can we attribute that to the Judeo/Christian Puritan morality that this country was founded on? I dunno, probably. Personally this whole thread has lead me to re-examine my own gallery of images. For the most part I guess I do fall into that category that has been so derided in this and many other threads. Altho' I'd like to think that I have a tad bit more artistic merit than the river of banality that dominates the galleries. whatever, tired now. IMHO Jon

Well, rolling along with this thread... I personally don't give a flip about the (so-called) current sorry condition of the (Poser) gallery. I don't care if every piece posted is a nude/semi-nude Vicky. It won't change what I decide to do. I'll still try some figure studies and I'll still try to do "meaningful" art that might make someone sit back and think (or feel something). I may even try something comedic. But, whatever I do will come to me in a dream, while I'm driving back and forth to work, mowing the yard, or some similar time when my brain can wander a bit--not because of the Poser gallery or remarks about it. One thing I will not do is "whore" myself to get views. Nor do I work on a timetable ("Oh my gosh, it's been a week since I made some Poser render!") In summary, the perceived state of the Poser gallery won't have any effect on what I try to do with my tools. I suggest others take a similar approach, stop making sweeping generalized insults, and let people march to their own drummer.

Well said, Chuck. Vicky in a Temple is the new folk art. So what. I'm sick of snobs.

John Render, If you mean to drive the idea into someones head whether they agree with your perspective on the world or not - no, I disagree. Again to reveal rather than teach, to deepen the mystery rather than to blatently "get your point across", to make someone else feel something . . . I hope your ideas on this community will mature with time. Surely there are those who take "Nekkked Vicky in a Temple with a Sword" seriously, but you're gonna have to live with that type of thinking no matter where you go. It doesn't mean you have to walk in lock step with them. "No matter where you go, there you are" - from the movie, Buckeroo Bonzai. cheers, - TJ

"Can we attribute that to the Judeo/Christian Puritan morality that this country was founded on? I dunno, probably." How to explain the enormous popularity of porn in places like Japan, then? "The purpose of art is to get your message across" I couldn't disagree more. Archibald MacLeish said, "poems don't mean, they be." Transparency of meaning is no prerequisite for the making of art. Most of the artists I know couldn't tell you what their work means if you held a gun to their heads. "Vicky in a Temple is the new folk art. So what. I'm sick of snobs." I was wondering how long that one would sit there before someone got offended. Folk art is not a pejorative term--nothing wrong with folk art, or the makers of folk art. Is it snobbery to suggest that there's a distinction between folk, popular and (for lack of a better term) high art? I have some training in both--two years of graduate work in one of the country's leading folklore programs, a father who was a Yale-trained ab-ex painter, graduate degree in creative writing, and a lifetime of interaction with artists and writers. It's not a spectrum/continuum--I'm not saying folk art is "bad" and high art is "good." The two are almost completely different things, made, as we see here, for almost completely different reasons. I'm not making a value judgment, just an observation.

snob: someone who perceives that they have better taste than me....but they are wrong. ;)

Dang--deleted it 'cause of a misspelling--was gonna repost but now it doesn't make sense. That's life in the forums, I guess.

Hey Mosca, I like that term "Transparency of meaning". Ive always thought of "Folk Art" as appreciative rather than deprecative. - TJ

Me, too--I've got two of my grandmother's beautiful, circa 1920 Pennsylvania Dutch quilts in my bedroom. They'd fetch a pretty good price on Ebay, but I'll never sell 'em.

Heavens, I didn't mean folk art in a pejorative sense at all! quite the contrary. And when I spoke of folk art, I didn't mean it in any formalized sense. I could have called it popular art but that wouldn't be right either since there is a quite recognizable 'style' to the gallery offerings I see. A sort of feeding off each other as well. I can't articulate very well. Sigh. What we see in the galleries can be accepted or ignored, but it's not going away.

Sorry! Misunderstood.

Mosca, A friend, Jody, used to make stuffed animals. on the face of it some might think that that's chilish, but I know better having watched her figuring out how to make the character look - my favorite was her beaverbear - she made a few really neat quilts too. Gordon, Who reminds me of AgentSmith in the Bryce forum, made things out of wood, silver and leather. Kiyoshi makes pictures in leather, and has been exhibited in the Smithsonian for his works relating to veterans. In his job he makes saddles. Lotsa horse owners here in the valley especially in Clovis and the country side. These are no less true artists than My Uncle Frank who sold over 200 paintings during his 50 years as a painter. -TJ

Erlik, I wasn't trying to devalue video as an artistic medium. As you say, the "problem" if one exists, is in imitation as opposed to innovation. I don't know if I'd go by the number of cuta as any indication of quality. Jacko ain't Huston, or even Bruckheimer. The fact is, like video has made film making more accessible to those without the money or the connections to produce a 35mm piece. Poser has done the same thing in its way. Democratization is good. Everyone gets a shot. A few truly talented people will emerge who, otherwise would have been lost to us. At the same time, you'll also get a lot of shot on video mediocrity which appeals mainly to the creator than anyone else. But, that's not bad. The creator is happy and there will always be an audience, even if only a small one, which aappreciated the result. Maybe they should just take the "Artists" out of the tagline "The Online Graphic Artists Community." Perhaps that would assuage those who see less and less that they consider art and be a more accurate reflection of the evolving state of things.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

"I suggest others take a similar approach, stop making sweeping generalized insults, and let people march to their own drummer. " Chuck...i think that some of us who really do march to our own drummers are the ones that hate the lack of imagination in the gallery the most. some of us really spend a long time getting a render just the way it is in our mind's eye...hey, there are some of us who EVEN make our own characters, clothing and props. then, marching to our drummer we may spend endless hours on posing and lighting...only to have it on the first page of the gallery for about 5 minutes...replaced with out of box replicas. that's not right. it is all well and good to have fun with poser. however, i do really really really wish that the ptb, here would limit the amount of posts by any given individual to 2 or 3 per week, instead of 3 per day. at least that would limit it to the best of the boring.

I don't think reducing the number of images will solve the problem that some people perceive. The "art" will still be outnumbered by the "dreck" in the same proportion. There will just be a smaller pile to sift through. You can't simply force people to do work that pleases or interests you. There is no reason to believe that limited to one picture per day instead of three, someone is going to spend three times longer on that one, or that the result would be any more pleasing to some if they did. Everyone who goes through the galleries will see a ew things they really like, a few they loathe and many that they find indiferent at best. The difference is that most of them, for lack of artistic discernment, laziness or common sense aren't moved to constantly lament that fact. They don't feel some sense of deep dismay that the majority can live with what they see as medioricty. It's almost like the pious who can't pass by a den of sinners without stopping to admonish them. Now, I really believe that these folks are sincere and that it really does cause them some psychic pain to see so many naked Vickys. I believe it, but not being an artist, I suppose I will never understand it. I know that they would probably like Renderosity to be an exception to the world where you'll find far more people watching pro wrestling than Masterpiece Theater, but it isn't. Perhaps Renderosit has just become too big, too open. It's free, it's no credit card or art lessons required and anyone can post anything (within reason) that they want to. Two alternatives, start a petition drive to get the ptb to change this site or get some free/cheap server space and start another one.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Some of us really are doing the best we can. We're not all artists...and there is no signpost saying "Only Artists Allowed." I don't put up a graphic to intentionally offend someone's artistic sensibilities....it is the best graphic (really) that I can do that day with the knowledge I have and the equipment I have. Why do I bother sharing dredge? Under the theory, I guess, that people who don't like it will go on to something else and this give me a place to share my graphics with some few friends who are more tolerant of my efforts than the experts would be. But there are some excellent graphics out there and I hate the sweeping pronouncements that there is nothing good on the lists. Check out the thread by Stormrage and the one by Lyrra and then tell me that none of their selections aren't serveral cuts above the average. At least they are looking for artists to celebrate. That's a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned. Maybe seeing originality recognized would encourage others to try a little harder. But keep in mind, some of us are doing the best we can. We just don't have the talent the rest of you have.

NO ONE Should have to apologize for putting their art on this site. Dialyn your art is fine :) I can't wait to see your work in even 2 months.. as you learn you get better and better. Everyone does.. None of those in this thread started out doing FANTASTIC images. None of them. everyone starts somewhere.

okay....when i first posted an image to our poser gallery, i had had poser for 6 weeks. granted, it was not FANTASTIC, but, it was original. the people had expressions, and, overall, it told a tale. i even did work to change michael's overly red complexion, and made morphs with anim8or for the girl's eyes. my first 3 images took...TIME and THOUGHT...and they expressed feelings that i had. the only out of the box thing i had was michael1, and he needed work. now, i see newbies to poser, and to this site, cheerily uploading 3 images a day...all of which really don't contain much content, except for what they bought in the market. maybe, just maybe, if we limited the amount of posts to a weekly thing, folks would take more care in picking which render they wanted to "share". perhaps, they would even begin to ponder why that one was their favorite, that week. i know i am not the only artist who has ceased posting to the poser gallery, here. my last post to that gallery took me 3 weeks to do....and that was AFTER doing the props, and, most textures...with the exception of a crystal ball, myself. well, when we changed servers or whatever this site did to ready itself for "content paradise"...lo and behold....the image was terribly corrupted on one side. oh, well...doesn't matter. one can work for 3 weeks on a poser image, and, have it buried in 10 minutes with our current gallery setup. if you are just playing, and, don't much care how fast your pic goes to page 10...well, it is just that...just playing. if you are serious about what you make, and upload...well, like me, you are probably not posting.

"one can work for 3 weeks on a poser image, and, have it buried in 10 minutes..." I'm really trying to understand here. If you image ends up on page 4 after 30 minutes, would that be better? If that's the case, then perhaps cutting posts by 2/3 would be the solution. Other than setting up some criteria like don't post unless you spend at least a week on it or made your own props and textures... If you could enforce that, it would certainly cut down on the number of images. The only other thing to do is get subjective and then you end up with another list compiled by one or more judges and that certainly is a can of worms. If reducing the posts will make most of the people happy then you have my vote. It's been suggested time and again and hasn't happened. Either it hasn't been presented properly or the folks who run things here don't feel it's a good thing for whatever reasons. If someone who feels passionately about this wants to start a petition, email campaign or whatever, just show me where to sign. In the end though, I think that this horse, dead or alive will only end up being whipped again in a few days or weeks.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Poppi, your comment... "Chuck...i think that some of us who really do march to our own drummers are the ones that hate the lack of imagination in the gallery the most. some of us really spend a long time getting a render just the way it is in our mind's eye...hey, there are some of us who EVEN make our own characters, clothing and props. then, marching to our drummer we may spend endless hours on posing and lighting...only to have it on the first page of the gallery for about 5 minutes...replaced with out of box replicas" So, if I understand your comment correctly, your complaint (and possibly the same complaint of many others) is that the quantity of inferior Poser renders pushes the (your) superior renders out of the way before it really has time to be appreciated. Did someone mention "snob" above? Well, perhaps we should fix this problem. I have a few suggestions. Let's just create a panel of experts. Say, 10 people. ALL Poser submissions go to them first. They mull over them and decide if it goes to the "Inferior Poser Gallery" or the "Superior Poser Gallery". Someone can just decide that for us. THEN, great work will be easily locatable. Or, perhaps something based on an algorithm: Let's say all the Poser "artists" (quotes used, 'cause I certainly don't want to open another dead horse while I'm still working on this one) get a rating. A numerical rating. Perhaps by a committee of people with criteria such as, "two years of graduate work in one of the country's leading folklore programs, a father who was a Yale-trained ab-ex painter, graduate degree in creative writing, and a lifetime of interaction with artists and writers". Then, each "artist's" rating is entered into a formula that dictates how long an image stays on the top pages. Of course, the higher your rating is, the longer the amount of time available in those top pages for the viewers to be exposed to your greatness. Those are just two suggestions. But I agree. Something MUST be done about these Temple Vickies (and related dreck)that get hundreds and hundreds of views when there is SO much more better and meaningful work out there. I'm reminded of the definition of "egotist" (by Ambrose Bierce): "A person more interested in himself than in me." You know, you make people like me want to take my dreck and leave. While I suppose I'm one of the people who produce vastly inferior work, one thing I can promise you is that it's a rare day indeed that my pidly Poser crap pushes anything out of the way in the gallery. I guess I was mistaken assuming the galleries (with the words soliciting comments and help) were a way to get feedback and constructive critism. Apparently, it's more of a showcase for "the chosen few" and piss-ants like me just get in the way. If I sound upset...I guess it's because I am. One gets that way when it's pointed out there are two classes of "citizens" here at R'City...and you know which class you have been directed to. (OK, fire away.)

Chuck, Work and dedication pay off - it is only perseverance that we succeed at anything. I looked at your gallery. The "Wagon Light" in the photo gallery looked pretty good to me. Perhaps you could do that in Poser as a study. If you can get the textures to work for you, it'll be a winner. - TJ

Chuck...if taking the time and the effort to do my ultimate best when making a gallery image, or, any image, for that matter, and, expecting others to show some degree of the same care for their works makes me a snob, so be-it. i stand my ground that there are way, way too many out of the box renders in the gallery. and, i see so many, month after month by the same members....with no improvements. why? 'cause they get alot of comments on how well they "showed" toys they used, and, never feel the need to improve. having fun with poser is a good thing. but, learning to take a critical eye to one's own work, is a good thing as well. at some point, if one is really interested in creating "art" with poser, at some point,i would think that one would notice that their vicki's still had crossed eyes, and no expression. pop...pop...pop!!!

I guess you never had this experience but I have. You do something, you see some improvement, you plateau, then it almost seems like you're going backwards, and then, with a jolt, you see an improvement. It's great that you can do your own models, and your own textures, and your own everything. That's admirable. I can't do that. I don't have the software and I don't have the money to buy the software. I have to take advanatge of what comes out of the box. It wouldn't hurt to have a little compassion for the people not as talented as you are. A lot of us are struggling and doing the best we can with what tools and abilities we have. I'll never be at the level of artist. Doesn't that mean I have to quit my hobby just because I can't reach your heights? Isn't there a place for someone who has a more modest goal of doing the best I personally can rather than trying to do the best you can do. I can't do what you do. I can only do what I do. And how do I hurt you by doing that?

Well, apparently, dialyn, you and others like you (myself included) push her stuff "out of view" too fast. I guess I can understand, a bit, people who are tired of looking through the gallery for inspiration and seeing the same old thing. Just never heard anyone, till now, upset at the abundance of material because it pushed their stuff down to underlying pages too fast. Maybe these people should pick up and move where the pros are (PoserPros). Then maybe they wouldn't have to deal with our interference. WIth over 100,000 members (mostly Poser, I would guess), you can't expect everyone to be artistic geniuses. Not even the majority. TJ: Thanks for the boost in morale. Feels a bit good at this point in the day. Funny you mention the wagon because I just did a carriage scene (Vue) and have posted a request for help in the Vue forum because it's my first real try at Vue. (Of course, it's been posted nearly 24 hours with no critiue or assistance yet...sigh...guess I turn people off)

My understanding is that the real artists aren't posting in the galleries any more because of us hobbyists, so I don't see how I'm pushing anyone out if they are already gone. It's apparently the mere existence of a beginner that's offensive. But how many people are born knowing how to do 3D artwork? I'm over 50...I have a longer learning curve then somebody who is 18. I never worked with 3D software before Poser...I've been at it since July and was hit with the complication of Poser 5. I'm sorry but it takes me awhile to adapt. And I accept I may never get any better than I am now...skill and talent are finite in some people. Oh well. Does that mean I don't have a right to at least try? Don't forget, Chuck, this is a holiday weekend for some but not all. Your Vue help may be coming when people are done recovering from Thanksgiving (those who celebrate it), or finished at work. Or your request for help got swallowed up in other threads. We know how that goes.

P.S. there are some really fine artists posting on the galleries. I hasten to say I admire your work. I'm obviously referring to the people who have already announced that they don't post here because they don't want to mingle with those of us at a lower level of ability than they are. I know many of you are generous in mentoring and inspiring those who are at the beginning stages, and my remarks are not directed toward those wonderful artists who have shown great kindness and consideration for other members.

i see your point, but, striving does not hurt, either. to say you are x-age, and therefore it is impossible to learn at the same rate as a younger person is mere poppycock...to say you can't afford the software to do it....modelling and graphics programs to make your pictures special is a wash, too....why....i started modelling with anim8or...just making morphs, and some of the hair in my early renders....FREE...then, i moved on and got amapi 4.15...ALSO 100% free....and, some of our best modellers use that, to this day....Brycetech, and Thip, for starters. Then, for graphics programs...there is GIMP and DOGWAFFLE...both free, and both decent. i think it doesn't hurt to try and inspire folks to reach a little farther...try something new...don't feel shy about posting THAT to the gallery, i am sure it would be appreciated. and, as for the beginners not being able to afford programs, to make their own stuff???? there was the choice made...should i buy poser 5 or perhaps, bryce, or maybe one of the modelling apps....or, or, paintshop pro, or photoimpact. saying that you must struggle with poser 5 is not an excuse not to try and expand. and, then, there are so very many pics that simply focus on what is new in the market...the folks who make them, they can't afford different software??? or, are they simply just comfortable with poser's instant grat? and, yes, i am a member in good standing at poserpros. it is a very nice site...you would like it.

I'm just saying we don't all have your ability or talent. But it doesn't mean we aren't trying. It just means we are taking a different route to get to where we want to go. My goal is not your goal. Clearly you want to do everything from scratch. That's fine. I don't. I don't cook from scratch. I buy clothes from a store. I don't build my own car from the wheels up. I don't have any interest in doing-it-myself to that degree. So shoot me (well, first make your gun, forge your bullets, and then shoot me). I am admitting a failure of ability on my part...a severe lack of interest in spending all my waking hours creating a cup when someone else has done a better job of it. You have an interest in constructing your own house. I don't. I don't think that makes my attempts to do what I can less valid. But at this point all we can agree is that we will never agree. Which is honorable. And that's the end of me in this tedious discussion. Happy weekend everyone.

you're right...i do cook from scratch, and, even though i am a lady, know a good bit about car repair. and, i would love to have a potter's wheel, a kiln, and some good clay and ceramic paints to build my own cups. each drink from them would be infinitely sweeter than drinking from the same ol' walmart ones i have. but, as far as ability, or talent....how do you know that you don't have it, if you haven't searched for it? and, happy weekend??? happy weekend???? how dare you? my saturday nights are as predictable as baby vomit...i sit around with my boyfriend watching cops, and america's most wanted on saturday night, then, whoop, whoop, whoop....we shop on sundays...and he loves to drive all over florida looking for pennies off on the dollar. then, when my hot love life is over for another week, i can come home and upload my model for the rhino challenge. and...THAT...that entry into the challenge, is the absolute highlight of my week. geeze, now you got me feeling sorry for ME, dagnabbit!!!

I think there is just a fundamental disconnect here between two different points of view. Unfortunately, neither side seems to be capable of understanding the other. This site is my first real experience of interacting with artists - if typing here can be considered interacting. I've come to the conclusion that they really are a different, and I don't mean that in a negative way. I think what sometimes comes across as snobbery or arrogance reflects a true (again for lack of a better word) passion about what they do. That's understandable, but I think it is difficult to grasp for those of us who aren't members of that group. Alas, I don't think they understand us either. This idea that people just aren't trying hard enough is frankly, insulting - though not intentional I'm sure. Trying to hold others to one's own standards is not only unrealistic but bound to lead to disappointment. Some people just don't have the same degree of dedication to art to spend days working on an image. They don't have the time or the desire to learn to model and see no need to do it. Some people really don't have a great degree of intrinsic ability and no amount of toil is going to change that. Is the idea that some people use Poser simply for fun so hard to understand? Is it impossible to grasp that they might not feel a deep seated need to create "perfection?" Can you even vaguely understand that perhaps your definition of good simply isn't good or fun for everyone? Or, is it simply a matter of this is our place and you don't belong here? Some artists seem to think that we MUST do better before we have a right to share this space with them and obscure their work. Excuse me, but who appointed them art gods? If you're a member of a sports team or a military unit, you have a right to expect everyone to live up to your lofty expectations. This isn't a team or a platoon, it's a website on the internet with thousands of individual people from all cultures, walks of life and philosophies. Dissing anyone who doesn't meet your standards is naive at best, selfish at worst. I haven't been here since day one so I don't know what this place was like originally. Maybe it was only artists and now they fear the barbarians have stormed the gates as they hold up their shields emblazoned with "ART," trying to fend them off. I'm sorry folks, things have changed and the ivory tower's been breached. Get used to the rabble, they're not going away. That may be a tragedy from your point of view but heck, I thought the world went to hell when Linda Ronstadt did a big band album and started getting fat. Seize the moment. Remember all those women on the Titanic who waved off the dessert cart. --Erma Bombeck

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

hauksdottir says time time is our most important resource and I believe that this is correct. We all have it in us to be able cook from scratch, become auto mechanics or even artists, some to a greater degree than others, but how you spend your time and how you think of yourself will determine in large how far you can go. If you spend all of your time in the kitchen and think of your self as a cook you won't ever get your car fixed - but you might learn something about art. The idea is to keep getting better at what you do, like what you do and Simply keep at it. BTW,lmckenzie, I used to read Erma Bombeck. It was always encouraging to read her articles. Poppi, You may want to read the first part of "The Phadrus" by Plato or take a vacation or both. be happy, - TJ

We're all just going to have to learn to live with the way things are because there really is no fair way for everyone to have what they want.
I too am getting tired of pictures of the latest texture on a vicki standing in front of the latest backdrop - and nothing more. It does get old, it does seem unimaginitive but for someone just beginning it's their pride and joy and an accomplishment. And as such, they have the right to post it in their gallery.
You can easily find your favorites by keeping their galleries bookmarked in your favorites. I do that and check every so often. And as I find new favorites I add them.

...... Kendra