I think it speaks for itself ;-)

And this one just- well, trumpets Firefly's abilities - no pun! ;-)

WOW ... looking great! I like that Elephant :) Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

Let's see a comparison between Firefly and P4 using your pics.

My God! Is that Michael in the first pic? Love the "sweaty" texture and facial/body morphs! Drooliscious!

I'd like to see s Firefly render comparison to Shademaster's Poser 4 Render Upgrade of the same scenes. That would be avery interesting challange.

Egad! How long did it take you to render with that much "hair" on the groundplain????

I really really like it...I did a recent render with the Firefly and then the same render exactly with the Poser 4 renderer...and the Firefly was much better. Mind you for some things the Poser 4 renderer is still really good, but not in complexly light scenes with different surfacing materials than the usual Mike and Vicky photoshop generated texture maps. Harvey

Just out of curiosity, what where the render settings, and how long did it take to render? ~DM

Is it hair... or noise in the material room?

I used P5 yesterday for the first time since SP1 came out, (experimenting with SP2.1) I rendered the same scene with both P4, P4 in P5, and Firefly. 24 light global lighting, (by Blackhearted) 2x Mike, 3x Vic, hires textures, transmapped hair on the females, and the result surprised me. The P4 renderer was on a par with firely, the shadows were a little better, a little more subtle with firefly. This is switching everything on except texture filtering, (texture filtering is a no no, for hires textures, renders stop when you run out of memory, see the beta forum) I didn't use any of the rooms, default everything save the switches in render options. The P4 in P5 renderer was quite a suprise, while the p4 and firefly renders were consistent, the p4 in p5 render skewed the lighting, if you flick through the three you can see the shadows move back and forward. The real odd thing thing was that one of the vickies has a half shaded face, but in the p4 in p5 render the face was fully lit. Another weird thing is that one of the vickies (the same one actually :) is using blunt hair, down to the shoulders, yet in firely it's actually lit, (from the inside) whereas the P4 render is dark, (as it should be) I figure that's because firefly has a much more advanced lighting model, and I haven't tried to tweak it yet. It's a little daunting to hear people talk about working out depth of field on a calculator I'd show you the images, but they're both big, and vaguely pornographic, technically speaking they within the TOS, but given what has been yanked lately, I suspect the same fate would befall them :) later jb

You didn't happen to time them did you praxis? I'm trying P5 for the first time in a while and am having some better luck with some things, but the FF renderer still crawls. Even in draft mode with everything off is 10x slower than P4's higher settings. FF even crawls when rendering blank space (for me anyway).

More P5 marketing drivel? Is this not what the Galleries are for? Perhaps CL needs to try to entice sales again? Sorry to take such a hard-nosed stance, but this was the same type of post made pre-release with P5 (ie, "California Dreaming" and "Ruby Tuesday") in order to get the community to drool over pre-ordering P5; and we all know the history of P5 enough not to rehash it. Anthony should also share his system specs since, IIRC, his system is well above the average users'.

Now I'm not attempting to sell a darn thing. But I have to say that the firefly in 5 has come a long way from thr P4 linear render engine of P4. While in some cases the textures do better in linear (More detail) the FF engine yields better visual effects. Since it's arrival all the images I've posted are all FF renders. including the hacker series. P5 still does some wonky things but, it has become (at least for me) the prefered application to work in. True, first impressions are a killer and CL could ahve done a good deal better, and they have a good deal of damage control to do. But they have come a good distance and thier application is now in a position where it is useable for the avaerage user (I Think) So say what you will, but for myself I have to admit that CL has done a great deal to both fix and stabilize thier application and answer the needs of the poser user. Are there going to be the die hard dislikers? sure, I think those ppl are always a good barometer as to whether you are doing what's right versus good businness. Is there going to be even more "Hype" you bet, that is what the world expects now, if you aren't gonna hype it to death then it isn't any good. whether it is good or not. Marketing tells you you gotta have this, and will keep it up till yu finnaly cave. Personally, I would challenge anyone to look me in the eye and say they are completley and utterly 100000% happy with anything they buy and that every last feature the wonder thing has is deftly and expertly used, and if you had to do it again you'd do it twice because it is that good. Likley, no one could, I know that I would not. There is always something one doesn't like or finds useless, but gets it anyway and finds that for what they got it for, does a good job. In my opinion, P5 is pretty much there, or rather where is should have been for an intial release, it just too bad it took so long to get here.

I am not passing any judgement on P5, since I do not - and likely never will - have it. What I am finding less tolerable is: 1) CL using the fora for posting pictures to promote P5. IIRC, the Galleries are for posting pictures and they usually only get fora exposure when they: a) are WIPs and/or seeking advice, b) may contain others' copyrighted works, c) part of the Hot 20, d) display newly available FreeStuff, etc. 2) Although most of us who have been around know many of the CL crew, the lack of using CL credentials in the post could lead newcomers to think that these are renders made by average, run of the mill users; not the makers of the software. 3) CL and crew have been silent in the fora, up until recently, and instead of promptly answering bug reports in the Beta forum, supposedly because they have had precious little time, they can find the time to post new renders in the fora? 4) Just like in the Beta forum, system specs are a major influence on the capabilities. Anthony had previously listed his system specs (which are well above the recommended specs, btw). This gives the impression that an average system is also capable of the same output. 5) I thought that advertising/marketing were not allowed in the fora? Granted, this is not blatant marketing, but it has the same "feel" as the "California Dreaming" and "Ruby Tuesday" threads in trying to pursuade users to purchase P5; especially seeing as how it is a CL employee posting and the title of the post touts P5's firefly renderer and lack of postwork.

I'm only on the SR2 since I started having problems after installing the patches and I'm not impressed with Firefly yet. Is it improving with each patch? Because of my problems I've been afraid to install the rest of the patches and up to SR2, firefly is not better than P4 unless you need hair or water reflection. Textures look much better in p4 for me right now but if firefly is improving I'll consider the rest of the patches. (~and hope for the best)

...... Kendra

For speed, I'd go for p4 any day, for my setup about 6-7 mins, (all but 20 seconds of which was calculating the shadow maps) P4 in P5, 15 mins, (rigged to as P4 like as possible, including "ignore shader trees") 10 mins of which was shadow map. Firefly, gave up timing it. I did it several time to verify a bug somebody reported, (didn't happen to me) went back to look every 30-60 mins or so, (I was watching TV) I knew it was going to take ages, I had everything switched on, so I purposfully didn't bother. You want firefly, you wait. So yeah, the renderer is much, much slower in P5. My Spec: P4 2Ghz 1Gb PC2700 DDR RAM 80Gb drive (20Gb poser partition) Radeon 9700Pro + DX9 drivers & DirectX 9.0 RC0 DVD & CDR/RW XP pro, (SP1 refuses to install) but fully patched appart from that. (No temp files found) Zone Alarm and NAV running in the background. later jb

La misma vieja mierda, diverso d. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

CyberStretch, as far as your concerns as to Curious Labs promoting their product in this forum. This is the POSER FORUM and Curious Labs is Poser! This is a forum to discuss their product.

"This is the POSER FORUM and Curious Labs is Poser! This is a forum to discuss their product." Discuss, not Market/Promote! Big difference.

They make merchants here at this site put promotional images and ads over in Product Showcase forum and gallery. They even made Rena start posting Poserworld promos over there. Why should software vendors and site partners be any different? This thread could easily have gone into Product Showcase forum like any advertisement.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

So what your saying is Kupa and any employee of Curious Labs is not allowed to say anything or show anything in a forum that is for THIER product? This is not the Poserworld Forum or the Daz Forum or the Free Stuff forum for that matter. It is the Poser Forum!

I'm saying if it applies to one member posting an ad here, it should apply to all. The member working for a company that owns poser and is a site partner, rather than being a Renderosity merchant, shouldn't matter. Advertising is advertising.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

what's next then, only asking poser questions in the "poser technical" forum? oops, I guess this what a question for the "where do I ask this forum"

Okay this is just rediculous. How in the world can the two images and the sentences, "I think it speaks for itself ;-)", and "And this one just- well, trumpets Firefly's abilities - no pun! ;-)", be misconstrued as advertising?!?

Neither image nor wording implies anything more than personal pleasure at achieving a successful render.

So what if Nosfiratu works for Curious Labs! Does this mean every image submitted by him will now be considered advertising?

I can't believe how quickly this degenerated into a complaint about something totally unrelated to the technical aspects of the pictures that were presented. Look at any number of other posts in this forum that show firefly renders and you'll find the same type of comments from people totally unrelated to CL.

"This is a learning forum" ;] At least that's what they keep telling us. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I had a couple renders I was pretty proud of. Wanted to show them off. That's all. No agenda, no nothing. It is without publc comment that I have deleted them.

And? Isn't showing us what Poser 5 can do helping us to learn?

Thanks for the info, Praxis. I expect a long wait with FF in production mode. But my problem is it's so sloooow even in draft, with nothing turned on. This makes the FF renderer unuseable, as I often make draft renders to check my progress. On the bright side, though, I was able to work in P5 for an hour and a half before lockup. That's a huge improvement for me. Course, I didn't use any hair, collision detection, or any of the new features. Maybe that's why.

No probs, and apologies for the fuss, Anthony.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

you people are unbelievable...got any other links to the pics anthony? I would to see them. Cyber, quick now, name all the nics of CL employee, I can think of four of the top of my head...all of which took turns posting in the beta, they only took thankgiving week off...which is where most of the cries of where is CL happened. BTW: Daz is doing the same thing, mostly at PoserPros though.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

"My God! Is that Michael in the first pic? Love the "sweaty" texture and facial/body morphs! Drooliscious" This is a test scene I worked on with SR2.1. No post production work. Don Hi Res figure with Face Room morphs and texture. Rendered in Firelfy with Raytrace reflections. To create the facial morphs and textures, I used the Face Room

Frankly I wish all the people who "Never have any intention of buying P5" would quit commenting on it. I wish someone would make a "Pointtless bitching and whining" forum.

BTW Nosfiratu, I really wish you hadn't given in to the Trollish behavior and deleted the images. I never got to see em. :(

How are people supposed to be inspired to learn new techniques and processes if members who KNOW the tricks of the program are not allowed to display their works without being blasted as covert advertisers.

Who better to teach people how to use a program than THE PEOPLE WHO HELPED DEVELOP IT!

I seldom jump in and get angry about an issue posted on these forums, but this one has bothered me for a very long time.

Nosfiratu's deleted two very good renders for no logical reason other than a desire to keep the peace. The loss of the images was a disservice to this forum for a couple of reasons.

First, because the images were great technical demonstrations of what the firefly engine can do. They generated the very type of questions that a learning forum should: questions about the models used, the time required to render, the render settings used, etc...

Second, because it is a reinforcement of a dangerous trend. Renderosity has become so obsessed with remaining ad free on anything but the ad forum, that people are becoming rabid about it and jumping the gun on anything that might be misconstrued as an ad. No one said anything about, "Now in the Marketplace", or "On Sale Now at Curious Labs." There was no marketing involved at all.

Renderosity needs to rethink its policy on advertising and how it is handled. Blatant spam is one thing to jump all over, but in cases like this, things are going too far.

For the "sweaty" texture, I used Specular light on the Relflection node and attached the image map for the Skin to the Displacement node

Posts from CL employees regarding Poser 5 are on topics and quite acceptable. This thread broke no rules in the slightest. I am bothered to see that Nosfiratu deleted his own posts. I for one see no problem with aynone posting images here showing off Poser's abilities. If I'm not mistaken that is one of the reasons for the existance of this forum - to discuss using Poser. My annoyance in this case goes to the members who harrassed Nosfiratu until he deleted his own things. I will decide when a thread is not acceptable. Please stop trying to do my job. Thank you. Lyrra the Barely Awake

"I wish someone would make a "Pointtless bitching and whining" forum." zechs, we had one once upon a time. It was called C&D and they should have made sure some were inside it when they boarded the doors closed. ;) (Just ask Ironbear, he ran that forum.) Nice face Brian! :)

I, for one, am angry. Why on EARTH! did you delete these images????? I want to see all experiments with P5 and, listen up folks, I am well aware and quite old enough to tell the difference between an advert and an experimental render, no matter who posts it. This is rediculous. Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Sorry Ironbear. My fingers didn't fly as fast as my temper on this post. No hard feelings. Thanks for understanding.

OK, people. We all work in 3D so we all have the concept of "light" down. The building you are currently occupying has a number of brightly lit rectangles, which are probably hidden by a piece of semi-translucent draped cloth. This is called a "window". Approach your nearest window. Reach out, and move the cloth. Don't worry, you won't crash anything and the simulation recalculates instantly with perfect collision detection. The "window"contains a piece of material with a Trans value of 1 and a Refraction of about 1.667. Because of this, you can see through the "window". You will notice tens of thousands of props, all with unbelievable texure, bump, transparency, displacement- every type of map and shader imaginable. Talk about OpenGL previews- You don't even have to wait for a render- And even Firefly can't hold a candle to the stunning realism. NOTE - At the risk of severe disappointment, be warned that you will probably NOT see anything having to do with temples, swords, bare-breasted women, etc. Of course, you probably also won't see any marauding dragons, hydras, orcs, or that sortof nastiness. You will see a bunch of pig men though and may see a house mouse or two. These are just simple quirks, nothing to be alarmed about. Somewhere in the building you occupy is an object called a "door". It is usually of darkened wood and sitting in a corner of a room or at the end of a hall. Open this door. Again note the perfect collision detection. Now step through the door, being sure to close it behind you. You are now "outside", which is the metaphorical equivalent of falling into the workspace - but don't panic! - You can always return to your studio through the same door. That is, unless you've forgotten your "key". Now step outside. You did bring warm clothes, yes? The atmospheric effects are unreal! Wind forces, waves, even things called "rain", or "snow". And talk about volumetrics! Look at all the figures walking around. All free! They may not be named Don, Judy, Will, Penny, Michael, or Victoria- In fact, it's a safe bet none of them have "Millennium" in their names. Most of them do resemble trolls, aliens, etc. with their funky proportions. Go ahead, laugh at them. They're products of a cheesy third-party outfit that thinks they can model. BUT - Admit it, no one can top those maps - and no application can top the EYES rendering engine for speed, reliability, and photorealism. Take a few deep breaths. Did I mention atmospheric effects? This place is like Adobe Atmosphere on steroids! Spend a few hours exploring and drinking in the stunning 3D effects. Interact with some of the figures. Now there's an AI engine for you! Take the time to truly explore your small section of this big 3D environment called "Earth". Enjoy it. After all that is done, come back to your home and go in through the same "door" you left from. Sit down in front of your artificial window and fire up any application you wish, be it 2D, 3D, or something unrelated. Play with it for a while. You'll eventually realize that nothing can ever truly replace the romp you just enjoyed. Best of all, you can go through your "door" and interact with the big studio beyond any time you want. In fact, the more you do, the longer you'll live - meaning you'll have even more time to play with your computers. I'm going to shut down and go practice what I preach for a while. Enjoy your Sundays! ;-) Anthony Hernandez Who is NOT speaking on behalf of any third party

Attached Link: http://www2.hdm-stuttgart.de/~sw19/visu/Egyptian4.jpg

Calm down...here's a mirror of the first picture Anthony posted. The credits for it go to Brian. I shall inform you that my monthly paychecks have "Egisys" written on them.

Just out of curiosity, what where the render settings? Here are the FireFly Render options. I turned off Use texture filtering for a fast render. Texture filtering reduces texture antialiasing but because summed area tables are used with texture filtering, memory use can increase up to four times. I recommend not to use texture filtering on scenes that have high res textures.. I rarely use that option any more. I think Larry turned it off on default settings now. This test scene was rendered on a P4 2.0 Ghz processer with 512M Ram, VM set to 768M

Attached Link: http://www2.hdm-stuttgart.de/~sw19/visu/Oliphaint.jpg

Second picture. I mirror these pictures because people asked for them. Anthony, forgive for interfering with your decision to pull the images.

...and how long did it take to render? This test scene was rendered on a P4 2.0 Ghz processer with 512M Ram, VM set to 768M ...actually the 'real' time was more like 9:17. I was too slow at the draw...

"I can't believe how quickly this degenerated into a complaint about something totally unrelated to the technical aspects of the pictures that were presented."

Where are the references to the "technical aspects of the pictures" in the posts? "I think it speaks for itself ;-)" and "And this one just- well, trumpets Firefly's abilities - no pun! ;-)" constitute a technical discussion?

To me, posting a picture of your product, labeling it as such in the title of the post, and not engaging in any discussion about it infers advertising, not discussion or learning.

"Look at any number of other posts in this forum that show firefly renders and you'll find the same type of comments from people totally unrelated to CL."

You see, that is the difference. If a member "totally unrelated to CL" posts renders, it is different than when a company/Merchant does the same with their own products. "Word of Mouth" is allowed while "Advertising" is not.

"Cyber, quick now, name all the nics of CL employee, I can think of four of the top of my head...all of which took turns posting in the beta..."

Well, DefaultGuy is one. ;0)

The issue is that CL employees should identify themselves as such, people should not have to guess; especially newcomers.

"they only took thankgiving week off...which is where most of the cries of where is CL happened."

In the Beta forum, there were several posts that went unanswered for quite some time, and the answer from CL was that they were "too busy to post"; although copy and pasting SR announcements seems to take less time than copying and pasting "Problem Noted. We are looking into it." regarding bug reports. All the beta testers wanted was a little acknowledgement that they were not testing in vain; and some never even received a "." bookmark from CL, nevermind any comments.

Out of the first 25 (out of 555) posts in the Beta forum, I can only see 5 in which a CL employee that I recognize posted to the thread; out of 19 threads that appear to require technical feedback. That is around a 25% response rate and only the first of 23 pages worth of posts; and this is not even a Holiday Week.

"BTW: Daz is doing the same thing, mostly at PoserPros though."

Different sites, different policies.

As already stated, if you allow CL to promote their products, then the other Merchants/Vendors should be allowed to do the same. Do a search in the FN&TC, Poser, and Product Showcase forums for "advertising" to see some of the historical discussions and decisions by mods/admins on moving/removing "ad posts" and the reason behind the creation of the Product Showcase Forum and Gallery. Just because "they are Poser" and they are site sponsors, should not mean that they can have preferential treatment over other members/Merchants.

Some of the posts, for reference:

1. Forum News and Team Contact Forum:

• What is happening here ? by pokeydots on 11/21/02
• A question to the Mods / Admins by Kaibach on 8/3/02

2. Poser Forum: - Product Showcase Forum and Art Gallery Guidelines... by ClintH on 2/26/02

• Reminder about commercial items and this forum by ScottA on 3/9/02
• Just a question to void any unwanted message. by Virus on 12/5/02

3. Product Showcase Forum: - "Welcome to the Product Showcase Forum. The Showcase Forum and Gallery are intended for all commercial related postings within our community. This is a highlight area where our membership is invited to review in greater detail the various art products, software and resource site subscriptions available for purchase."

• coming soon.... by atom on 6/20/02

It is great to see that DefaultGuy has so much time to create tutorials and respond to Beta bugs. :0)

Here's what it looks like rendered out. -DefaultGuy

For more technical information, please go to the Bugs forum. I posted there yesterday in repsonse to the following user issue http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12440&Form.ShowMessage=990485&Reply=990581#10 Thanks for your continued support, -Brian

Thanks for the tips guys.

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

It is interesting. A mod here finds no problem with the post that started this thread, but yet Cyberstretch does (who incidently, is not planning on buying Poser 5). So, instead of ignoring this meaningless thread, he turns it into a personal vendetta against CL. But I guess that's how he gets his jollies. And have a great day!

Cyberstretch, take a breath. It's sunday. That means DefaultGuy and Nosfiratuu are posting in their spare time.

No personal vendetta, just stating opinions - take 'em or leave 'em; not forcing anyone to see things my way. Last I knew, forums were used for discussions. I have P4PP and was unaware that this is now the "Poser 5 only" forum. Perhaps if you could direct me to the Poser 4 forum, it would be more appropriate? Responding to people during the course of a discussion is not a personal vendetta either. It is called "Common Courtesy".

well said Jcleaver! @DefaultGuy: thank you very much for posting this little tutorial ... that one helps me to understand FireFly better Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

@CyberStretch: If I dont have something with my eyes and I can still read this is a Poser Forum ... no matter what version (look screenshot - there is no version number) ... So Anthony can post what he wants and show us his works as others do every day! And as I remember right he dont offer Poser 5, right? So come down, get a break Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

Noo... Cyber didn't. I brought up a question of established site policy, and Cyber expanded on it wit hlinks and past examples. Not doing your job for you Lyrra. Feel free to do it. I'm observing on selective application of site/forum policy. You can always feel free to be selective, but when next you boot a render/promo by a vendor to products showcase and send them an IM why you did... you're sending an observable message that some animals are more equal than others, to borrow an Orwellianism. "Welcome to the Product Showcase Forum. The Showcase Forum and Gallery are intended for all commercial related postings within our community. This is a highlight area where our membership is invited to review in greater detail the various art products, software and resource site subscriptions available for purchase." And yeah, Tirsajdyn, I can name the nicks of most of the CL employees member here. And the nicks of most of the members of other sites and companies who are members here. So what?

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Chris , As I said, I was only offering my opinion, others - as is their right - responded to it and set the thread aflame. Since my original post, I am merely answering people who have directed statements and/or questions toward me. I did not call for Anthony to remove the images, I just questioned his motivations knowing that he is a CL employee and that there was virtually no substance to his posts other that the renders and title of the post. A simple post clarifying would have sufficed rather than a lambasting of someone sharing their opinion. I am not mad, angry, etc. Just trying to ensure that everyone gets treated equally. I was brought up to be a free thinking individual and question everything. I guess doing so is being a troublemaker or suggestive that I am a one man "Rambo" army trying to personally sink CL. I guess any post that questions CL or anything surrounding them is instantly a "personal vendetta"?

Rediculous reductionism!!! I already own Poser 5. What's he trying to sell me? Why should I go to the showcase forum to view tips and tutorials? BULLSHIT!

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

hmmm ... if I have understand something wrong ... so sorry :/ (I have to fight against a language barriere here ... :) ) Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

Chris, It is ok. I think others before you took this way out of proportion from the way it was intended.

just curious, please interpet that in no way to mean curious labs as I am no way affiliated with them, but what is considered an acceptable post in this forum? I didn't see it as an add for "software X" any more than any post made by nonemployees showing a render and stating what new feature they used to achive the result. if you remove ALL the advertising, then posts that happen to state that they used so-and-sos texture would have to be moved, and if they didn't state they used so-and-sos texture, someone would pop up and accuse them of trying to pass it off as their own work. it's time to relax people, the mods are very capable of moving threads to the correct forum if they feel it's in the wrong place

Sorry, I had to repost this. "Egad! How long did it take you to render with that much "hair" on the groundplain????" "Is it hair... or noise in the material room?" Not hair. The grass is actually a displacement map based on the GrassDirt material found in the Basic Materials library. To create the grass, load in that material onto the ground plane and change the diffuse color to look more like what you'd find in the Serengeti. Add the 'Noise' from the 3D Textures node to Displacement and increase the displacement value to 8.0

So this doesn't get lost in the mish mosh, For more technical information, please go to the Bugs forum. I posted there yesterday in repsonse to the following user issue http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12440&Form.ShowMessage=990485&Reply=990581#10 Thanks for your continued support, -Brian

Well, if nothing else good comes out of this interchange, at least DefaultGuy is responding in the Beta Forum as well; even though it is a Sunday.

BTW, that was meant as a COMPLIMENT, just so people do not misconstrue it as a slam.

:) Actually, I should be going now. My two-year old son is tugging at my arm. Be well, -Brian

Thanks CyberStretch and all who have participated in this thread, -DefaultGuy

"Glad you clarified that...it came dangrously close to reading like a snide comment after all else that you had posted here." Well, that is one of the major problems with written communications (ie, people reading - or reading into - them differently than the way they were written); which I think contributed a lot to the problems in the thread. Oh well, life goes on...

"The credits for it go to Brian." I thought Anthony said the images were his? "I had a couple renders I was pretty proud of. Wanted to show them off. That's all." "Rediculous reductionism!!! I already own Poser 5. What's he trying to sell me? Why should I go to the showcase forum to view tips and tutorials? BULLSHIT! " Yes it is ridiculous. You wouldn't go to the showcase forum for tips and tutorials - but then this thread never started as a tip or tutorial, default guy started offering ideas - but that wasn't the topic here. People asked Anthony questions regarding render times and such and he didn't even answer them - so he never intended this to be a "learning thread". Default Guy answered instead.. Therefore by the standareds of the rules for this forum it didn't belong here - remember - this is a forum only for learning and non-learning posts may be moved. Which is what they claimed when they moved several anti-P5 threads. Speaking out against P5 in favor of P4 is just as "poser oriented" as promoting it. But then again this is 'rosity which means the rules never have applied evenly. Doesn't matter what any company does at any other forum - such as PP, those sites have different rules - 'rosity has stated this forum is for learning only and all commercial images go in the Product showcase. Other sites would allow this image in the Poser forum I know I would, but then it's not against my stated rule - or those at PP.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

"But then again this is 'rosity which means the rules never have applied evenly." And therein lies the problem.

eitherway, Defaultguy, Nosfiratu, Lawndartlawndart, and even kupa are members of renderosity...as I see they can post renders of what they have done just like anyone else. unless you sit on your ass all day staring at the forums it is almost impossible to answer every post.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

I never thought a test render would cause so much grief. I'm truly sorry that it got posted. I really need to go and spend time with my toddler. Here's where the original test render started: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12440&Form.ShowMessage=990485&Reply=990581#10 Be well, -Brian

Ah. Missed that one, apologies Tyger: a lot of posts to scroll through. ;] "Sorry Ironbear. My fingers didn't fly as fast as my temper on this post. No hard feelings. Thanks for understanding. " No problems. And you didn't need to apologise, no hard feelings. [I never take this stuff personally kiddo ;)] I apologised to Anthony for the mess because he got caught in the crossfire on an observation on stated forum policy consistency here, and I didn't mean that to sound like he should remove the renders. He took it that way and did, and I could see why he read it that way when I reread it. Now, Anthony, DefaultGuy, and a lot of other people can take any remark I make as being critical to CL, and I can't gainsay them effectively, because I have been critical. But I hope that at least Anthony knows that when I mean for it to be directly critical to him - I'll say so straight out: I am not subtle. I trust that in spite of differences of opinion, he knows me that well by now from observation at least. Hence the apology to him - if I'd intended to quarrel with Anthony, I'd have done so straight up, no faffing around. shrug Miscommunications in the context.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Pfth!

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

"unless you sit on your ass all day staring at the forums it is almost impossible to answer every post." Well, considering the Beta Forum was created to foster communication between CL and the testers, I would hope that they would at least go through one forum and answer people's posts. Anyway, I think this has been hashed over enough. An advanced apology to anyone who may ask a question or direct a comment my way. I will, most likely, refrain from posting in this thread again. No hard feelings...

Thanks Tirjasdyn and all who have participated in this thread, -DefaultGuy...(and son)

Once more :) So this doesn't get lost in the mish mosh for those who need it: For more technical information, please go to the Bugs forum. I posted there yesterday in repsonse to the following user issue http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12440&Form.ShowMessage=990485&Reply=990581#10 Thanks for your continued support, -Brian

And this site is Renderosity which means that malicious behavior is tolerated until good constructive enthusiastic people pull their work or leave. Ironbear and CyberStretch... we know your agendas. You hate CuriousLabs and hate the program. Why don't you stop attacking it at each and every opportunity and go do something useful? As for Anthony not responding... he posted the images after midnight west coast time. I suspect that when he logged on this morning he was pretty darned hurt by the sniping. Why else delete them? So we the people in this forum all lose seeing what other artists do in their precious free time because of a couple of carping mudmouths who have no intention of using the program. Well, those of us who do want to use the software NEED to see what can be done. Carolly

"Ironbear and CyberStretch... we know your agendas. You hate CuriousLabs and hate the program. Why don't you stop attacking it at each and every opportunity and go do something useful?" I am so glad that you can tell me the way I feel or what my agenda is, especially when I assisted CL not that long ago, (on my own time), without any personal gain whatsoever. There is a certain problem with assumptions, and I am sure you know where that leads us...

Welll... at least we know where we stand respectively, Carolly. ;] Carping Mudmouths on one side and CL Apologists on the other. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Well said Carolly, I agree absolutely.

I for one own Poser 5 and would appreciate ANY and ALL tips I get. Marque

To me it is a shame that Anthony and others are harassed because of all this silliness. My view is that this is the Poser Forum so anything related to Poser should be allowed, whether it is advertising, images, tutorials, etc. Just as there are those who complain the site is too commercial, there are those who are aggravated by the anti-commercial posts inundating this forum. Why should you be allowed to complain in this forum about too much commercialism if I can't post an ad and visa versa. If merchants must be herded off to the Product Showcase Forum, then why not herd all complainers off to their special forum, people wanting to learn to the Technical Forum, people wanting to post images to the Gallery. Then we can just get rid of the Poser Forum. :) Beth

Hmmm. I would think that folks would be glad that the folks who make the software they use would be glad they are accessible. (Excuse me Bill Gates is paging me in my messaging window HUGE HONKING WINK!) The only diff I see between CL and "other" vendors is that the other vendors NEED the CL app POSER verision-X for the use of their goods. I would think the other vendors would want POSER displayed so folks who lurk, have not decided to upgrade, waiting for a good excuse to make the plunge. From the reposted pics, and discussion of how they were generated, somebody somewhere would have LEARNED something. Is that not the purpose of the forum. Ah yes one other thing, despite the almost instantaneous nature of communications in our modern world some of us may wish to remember that there a over 6 billions people on the planet and we are just ONE of them. Nice pics dude!

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

"My God! Is that Michael in the first pic? Love the "sweaty" texture and facial/body morphs! Drooliscious!" Sorry, forgot to add this to the screenshots. For the "sweaty" texture, I used Specular light on the Reflection_value node and attached the image map for the FaceRoom skin to the Displacement node Here's a closeup of Don Hi Res after I applied the ethnic facial morphs and texture in the Face Room (mentioned in an earlier reply of this long thread. I used the same technique on the face texture, except this time I increased the Reflection_Value to .4 with Specular connencted. I used the face room texture and hooked it up to the Displacement node. FireFly render with raytracing turned on, Use texture filtering turned off. -DefaultGuy and son

The screenshot for this is posted at: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12440&Form.ShowMessage=990485&Reply=990581#10 -DefaultGuy and son

9 hours to render a 640x480 picture? Using a pretty decent computer, Sheez!, Imagine if you have to render a 300 frames animation? -which are 10 secs for NTSC TV animations-:) (personal note: not attacking/deffending anyone who participate on this treath, just was amuzed with the time required to do that picture).

SAL9000 - Hello Dr. Chandra, Will I've dream?

What the heck. Since I'm here anyway... Be well, -Default and the "Tazmanian Devil"

00:09:22:09 9 minutes, 22 seconds and some change. Actually, it was 9 minutes, 17 seconds and very small change. No offense taken. Be well, -DefaultGuy and DefaultKid

"My God! Is that Michael in the first pic? Love the "sweaty" texture and facial/body morphs! Drooliscious!" Thanks for the info Anthony and Brian; who knew Don could look so good after a spin in the face room! Now that's a soulful brotha! Incidentally, how were the muscle morphs (or scaling?) for the body done? Keep up the good work; Cheers! Arendar

Hi Arendar, "Incidentally, how were the muscle morphs (or scaling?) for the body done?" I simply used the Full body morphs Muscle and Sculpting for Don Hi Res, morph dials found in the Body> Parameters palette. Pre: If you haven't patched the Poser 5 Figures, the Poser 5 Figures updater is a free download from the Curious Labs website (www.curiouslabs.com). 1. Load in Don Hi Res 2. Select the Body element 3. Go to the Parmeters palette (Shift + Ctrl + N) 4. Dial in the Full Body Muscle and Sculpting morphs -Brian

Thanks Arendar and all who have participated in this thread, For more technical information, please go to the Bugs forum. I posted there yesterday in repsonse to the following user issue http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12440&Form.ShowMessage=990485&Reply=990581#10 Thanks for your continued support, -DefaultGuy...(and sleepy headed little boy)

Thanks again Brian; as you may have guessed, I've held off patching my "vanilla" install of P5 until "the dust settles". Will definitely try out Don's FBMs later!

0_0 OMG!!!

I can't believe that only took you about 10 min. Looks like I need to start a topic on render settings... Tried rendering an image a couple days ago @ 3300 x 2500 x 300dpi. 10 hrs later, it was still only adding objects... Think I'll give it another shot now with lower settings (my images seem to be to dark these day to turn out on a printer anyways).

Love the sweat effect. Ironicly, the image that I tried rendering had sweat in it. Didn't turn out that good, though. I'll have to give it another go now that I've seen your method.

Hair as grass, eh? Tried that a while ago. Ended up taking a flat plane, and using displacements to creat a grass effect. I recall it turned out rather well (for short grass). Let me see if I can dig up the material settings again.

Thanks for the info!
~DM

CyberStretch wrote:
I thought that advertising/marketing were not allowed in the fora?

Ironbear wrote:
I'm saying if it applies to one member posting an ad here, it should apply to all... Advertising is advertising.

Odd that you guys didn't express these opinions when this was posted:
http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=970361

And, gosh, it wasn't even about Poser.

Who can spell "agenda". ;-)

"Agenda A-G-E-N-D-A Agenda" ;] I didn't post into that one at all IIRC [didn't see me there when I scrolled through]. I responded in the one at PoserPros. Doan sweat it PJ - I'll probably find occassion to slam Dan Farr or Chadly on something involved with their release before it's done. ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Um, PJF, unless you missed it or have not heard, DAZ Studio has not even hit beta yet. How can you advertise for something that is not commercially available yet and still well withinthe realms of development?

And, that post was in response to various sundry posts here claiming that DAZ's application was "vaporware". Hardly the same motivations.

This is all "academic" now anyway, since R'osity sanctioned the posts, just as they did in the post PJF pointed out (Same Mod too):

"98. Re: DAZ Studio by Lyrra on 11/23/02 05:08
...
Non poser related? it uses poser stuff doesn't it? that's vicki 3 in there, right? I think it's closer to topic than some of the posts I've seen today :)"

AFAIC, I received my answer when Lyrra made it clear that R'osity does not view this as an "advertisement". Whether I agree or not is immaterial. Just expect more of the same when other Merchants/Vendors claim they are "only showing off Poser's potential" by displaying their MP items in a forum.

Rolling eyes give us some credit CyberStretch Don't lump the merchants here with your problem. Okay? We don't advertise in the forums. and we catch each other if we see one of us doing it. This whole topic is stupid and i won't beg your pardon or anyone elses for saying so. Anthony has posted props and images before, and there was absolutely NO REASON Why he shouldn't now. Just because he works for CL does not mean he cannot post his own work with the program There was no reason FOR ANYONE to slam him. No matter how any of us feel about other side issues

"Don't lump the merchants here with your problem. Okay? We don't advertise in the forums. and we catch each other if we see one of us doing it." Was this not the very same reason why the Product Showcase Forum/Gallery was instituted in the first place? Because the Merchant were posting ads in the fora? That was my only link to the merchants, so please keep it in context. Likewise, it is not my problem as I seem to be the one who has accepted that the Mods have the say and left it at that. It seems others are less willing to "let it go", not me.

raising eyebrow and that was a while back and yes exactly why the Product showcase forum was made.. And your point is?? No it wasn't the only link to the merchants.. You said...Just expect more of the same when other Merchants/Vendors claim they are "only showing off Poser's potential" by displaying their MP items in a forum. So you are implying that we will do this simply because you believe this thread is advertising. So maybe you should "keep it in context." There was absolutely no need to slam the merchants. We keep to the rules. And no matter what the reason was that the PSF was created it was a while ago and has no basis for current topics.

Sorry about the goofed, thought it was 9 hours :) Didn't noticed that the clock showed upthere had centesims of sec :).

SAL9000 - Hello Dr. Chandra, Will I've dream?

thanks, I'm glad you posted those renders. it's nice to see what can be done with poser 5.

keep the renders coming.

what i want to know is where did you get the egyptian props.. S Those look sooo cool

If you cannot see the correlation, Storm, I am not about to point it out to you. No need to get into a pissing match over semantics.

well..the Packers beat the dreaded Vikings... and I come back to this.... Good to see you guys are back at some semblance of normalcy..Anthony and Brian :) And normalcy in the Renderosity forums is always a bit heated and controversial. If you guys can't post Poser stuff, even if it was/is or sorta advertising, I'd be a bit disappointed, considering we are all here because of a program called POSER. This be the place for POSER information, help, discussion, bitching, whining, and hype... I think it would be a big mistake to chase away those that make this place even exist. Even an ad that hyped a certain feature in Poser would be appreciated...perhaps it may point out something we hadn't noted or tried....it also tends to keep the developer a bit more honest as well...nothing worse than a big hype and not delivering the goods... didn't we just have a perfect demo of that back in September? So thanks for the images and the followup technical pointers...and welcome back :) Hopefully your world will be a bit saner than the last couple of months. Hey Anthony...how's the first edition coming along ???

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

Attached Link: http://store.daz3d.com/catalog/product.php?pidx=1792&paridx=151

Stormrage, the props look a lot like the "Rulers of Egypt" prop set, over at Daz3d.

~DM

Crystal Dragon :) Thank you I was wondering.. that's a cooooool set

It is Rulers of Egypt set.

Can we just create a "whiners" forum and then move all whiners and complainers and P5-haters posts to that forum? I am really, really sick of those guys. -jjsemp

Hi CrystalDragon, A few tips that will speed up FireFly rendering times and lower memory use: 1. Render Options. Uncheck Use texture filtering. Texture filtering reduces texture antialiasing but because summed area tables are used with texture filtering, memory use can increase up to four times. When I rendered the UD Hydra figure which uses a 5000x5000 hi res texture, my system was swapping VM like crazy. I recommend not to use texture filtering on scenes that have high res textures. I rarely use that option any more. I think Larry turned it off on default settings now. 2. Render Options. Bucket size. What is your bucket size set at? The 'bucket' size is the size of the square that draws during render. The larger the square is, the more memory it requires, but in some cases will speed up the render time. I did get a render to stop when my bucket size was set to 76 (which takes up more system resources)and did a test at 6000x6000 72 dpi. After that I set my bucket size back to 32. 6000x6000 was too much for my system to handle. I recommend leaving the bucket size to 32 or marginally higher. For more information on this please refer to my post here: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12440&Form.ShowMessage=959059&Reply=960669#11 Here a portion of the FF render at 1200 by 900, 300 dpi 3. You may need to increase your virtual memory settings. I've been able to render out my UD Hydra test scene 3000 by 2250 at 72 dpi and 1200 by 900 at 300 dpi. My system chunked away but I was able to render out the scenes. Again, turning off Use texture filtering dramatically helps reduce memory swapping. 4. Delete temporary files. An issue in a previous beta Service Release caused Poser to not delete certain temporary files. This issue has been resolved in Service Release 2.1 for Poser 5 (SR-2.1). There were two separate issues: - In SR2.1 engineering fixed a PBxxx.tmp file problem. It was a simple missing call to delete the PBxxx temp files. If you have residual PBxxx.tmp files, please go to the Windows/TEMP folder or Documents or SettingsUsernameLocal SettingsTemp folder and delete all of the PBxxx.tmp files. - Shadow map .tmp files. What will happen now is Shadow map .tmp files will be temporarily stored in the root of the Poser 5 folder during a FireFly render. Once a single scene or movie render is completed, they will be removed. The files will also be removed if the render is canceled by the user or if the render fails. Please reference the SR2.1 read me on this issue. Hopes this helps, -DefaultGuy

"Let the rebels begin and Let the fires be started - We're dancing for the restless and the broken-hearted... " - Jim Steinman. Heh. We could create a droolers forum also for the opposing half. Just to be even up. I still don't particularly care what you're sick of.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

For example of "whining" see below. "Can we just create a "whiners" forum and then move all whiners and complainers and P5-haters posts to that forum? I am really, really sick of those guys. -jjsemp "

**wanders around forum with large card banner"" Reinstate C&D Reinstate C&D Reinstate C&D Reinstate C&D Reinstate C&D Reinstate C&D Sorry, the firemen are on strike here and I'm getting into the swing of it. :)

Hey, thanks DG. I think I'm just gona play around a bit and see if I can't come up with some good render settings. I went a little overboard on the last image I tried. Forgot I read through the RDNA forum, and played around with the precedural skins with the figures. to top it off, I did have the texture filter checked. Doh~!
So, the image was attempting to render @ 3300 x 2500 x 300dpi with a pixel precision of 6, a bucket size of 24, raytracing on, displacement maps on (and in use)... Looking back on it, I can't believe I thought it might render.

As far as other settings, the VM is about as optimized as it's going to get (win2k, manually set VM | 512 start, 3 gig max). There's also a gig of Ram in this machine, so I'm not worried about memory...

Thanks again for the tips!

~DM

I agree with Ironbear- this is advertising. It is saying, here's an image I made with Product X. Don't forget, it's on sale for a special low price of $319.00. (Okay, the message doesn't actually give a price or a link, but still.) If Marketplace merchants can't post images on how to use their own products, why can CL? Ah, that's right- they're a paid sponsor of this site... let's see more ads, um, I mean, "useful images". {And? Isn't showing us what Poser 5 can do helping us to learn? } How is showing an image "helping"? I would like to know: 1) How long did it take to set up the objects for this image? 2) What Firefly settings were used? 3) How long did it take to render the image? 4) What version of Poser 5 was used? Somehow, I doubt that the buggy, "public" version of P5 was used. I have the feeling that, like the "California Dreaming" images, this was made with a "development" version of Poser on a development PC that is virtually crash-proof... and one that none of us will realistically be using. Oh, wait, there are the answers... deep in the thread and many messages AFTER the posting of the image. I probably would have "learned" a lot more if this information had been posted WITH the images. Yes, it's nice that we're seeing this images, but the argument can be made for "If you have time to make images, you have time to fix the program." Are all the bugs fixed? Or is it time to announce a new feature?

How? The same way some of us learn by looking at each others pictures. Not all of us need a Poser 5 for Dummies hand book. Think of pictures as "Motivational learning tools".

Hi CrystalDragon, You're welcome and I hope these posts helped you out this weekend. -Brian

Thanks Brian.

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

JohnRender wrote:

"I agree with Ironbear- this is advertising. It is saying, here's an image I made with Product X. Don't forget, it's on sale for a special low price of $319.00. (Okay, the message doesn't actually give a price or a link, but still.)"

That's the funniest thing I've read in a while. Thanks :-)

-Jeff

120 replies... A flame war... Wow All I wanted to do was show off two pictures showing the results one could get in pretty short order. I've worked my rear end off on Poser and I'm damned proud of it. Please forgive me for wanting to show off the fruits of my labor and that of my coworkers and accept my humble apology. This will be my final post to any Poser forum regarding anything at all having to do with Poser. This is my personal decision, which is both non-negotiable and in no way intended to convey any public or private opinion held by my employer or any of my coworkers. Anthony H.

Isn't it nice that the flamesters always get the bigger vote around here....they get to chase people off the forums and the rest of us are helpless to do anything but watch. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to post here. I'm just sorry to see that people are permanently discouraged from sharing. Thanks very much from those of us who really were interested. And what did all that accomplish? I guess someone somewhere must feel like hot stuff now. It's having a chilling effect on me.

"This will be my final post to any Poser forum regarding anything at all having to do with Poser. This is my personal decision, which is both non-negotiable and in no way intended to convey any public or private opinion held by my employer or any of my coworkers." hmm, hope that cyberstretch can sleep at nights, knowing his mouth just cost the community a long time member.

you know something? Anthony may be connected to CL.. He may even be part of the programming team. But he is and has been a member here at Rosity for a good long time. He has contributed to the poser community by giving away freestuff. He has done renders and showed them off before. Yet now because of some people's dislike of the issues concerning Poser 5 and it's release and such (and I won't say that these aren't warranted) there is absolutely no need to jump on Anthony. This post was not and advertisement for Poser 5. A commercial advert includes price, location and specifics. This was a post by a long time member. If I had posted a thread with this title NOONE Would have bitched and moaned and complained and blasted me because of it because I have no connection to CL besides adding content to P4 and P5. It is one thing to go after the company because you are disatisfied. It is another to go after the people who work there. Anthony does not make company policy. Anthony is a member here, and he just happens to work for CL. Some people need to back off.

DefaultGuy, Please walk, no run across the office (even if it's actually miles away), and bring Anthony back. He might kick and scream but drag him back (get Kupa's help if necessary). Put him back in front of the computer and cuff him to his chair until he changes his mind. Once he's done that please give him a skin-toughening lesson. He's a valuable member of my (I can't speak for the entire) Poser community. I have learned from and enjoyed his posts and I can't afford to lose such a valuable member because he feels forced to act selfishly during this holiday season.

Attached Link: http://www.old-hickory.demon.co.uk/tonight.htm

Bear, "Tonight is what it means to be young, Before you know it, it's gone" Classic movie, Jim Steinman, Ry Cooder and the Blasters, wonderfull. later jb

Once again the FACISTS win. Sickening.

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Thank you Anthony and Brian for posting these helpful facts about P5, They will help all the P5 users get more out of P5 and have a beffet understanding of the tools. Spike

You can't call it work if you love it... Zen Tambour

 

"Once again the FACISTS win. Sickening." IMHO noone won anything. I see things taken way out of porportion. One person makes an observation that was in essence directed at site policy, then wham several people jump down his throat and the real flaming starts. Anyonyone can make a choice on how to respond to any comment posted by anyone else. That's your freedom. But when it turns into a personal or collective attack that is an entirely different matter.

All, I am the one to blame for Anthony's decision to leave this forum permanentely. On Saturday, I created these test scenes in response to a user having problems setting up his rendering options for FireFly. Late Saturday night, Anthony asked me if I could post the first scene and I said sure. He also asked Joe Grover if he could post his test scene with the Elephant. I sincerely didn't think posting these images would cause so much controversy and Anthony's decision to leave. I can not ask him to reconsider. He is a dignified person and friend who I dare not question his decision nor reason for doing so. But please accept my apologies for ever letting him post. I accept all the blame. No one else. Thanks for you continued support and please be well, -Brian

That's very gracious of you, Brian, but it isn't your fault. Anthony did what he felt was right, and that's his responsibility. And I am sure that the people who attacked him thought they were doing the right thing. I'm just sorry that he weighted their words more heavily than those of us who enjoyed viewing the renderings and have valued the information provided by both of you. We aren't all against Curious Labs. I've finally got to the point where I can render with Firefly and any information that provides clues to how to make the software work better is valuable to me. What's really sad is much of the negative views about Poser 5 apparently come from people who don't have the software and haven't used it. It is one thing to be unhappy about how the product was marketed and sold...but why drive away the people who can help us owners use the product? Makes no sense to me. But I'm apparently too old to understand what's going on here.

Brian, What you posted here is fine and welcome here at Renderosity and in this forum. If some members want to read into the rules something that is not there, that's up to them. To all members: This type of flame war will no longer be welcome here. We will be handing out warnings/bannings to anyone that wants to keep going down this road. Spike

You can't call it work if you love it... Zen Tambour