I checked out the poser hot 20's today and seen 2 new pieces that weren't on there yesterday. The odd thing is that one of the images was a couple weeks old and suddenly they have about the same amount of votes, next to each other by the same artist. I don't understand how all these people could suddenly vote for an image that is a couple weeks old at the same time. Not taking anything away from the people that post the image, but it's just kinda odd. Has anyone thought that maybe people are using alternate accounts and voting for themselves?? I know that something to that effect happened with the halloween contest..

Don't let it bother you Karma...there are far more important things to worry about in this World :o) Cheers

 

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How you could acert such a silly notion. only real, true and correct art makes the poser top 20, and only the best make the grade. remember this is a community and a community never does anything as under handed as to have multiple accounts or IM spammings begging for votes, or chat spamming or begging for votes there. here real art is judged solely on it's merit. This is the 21st century and tammany hall is a long time ago. now there is fredome and equality amounst peers of all ages and ehtinstity. Here the real serious art is lifted to to the next paradyne of greatness. Now... that being said, cheers has the best plan about the top20.

lol! I guess you didn't read the post about people cheating in the halloween contest by voting for their own images! I'm sure if those people cheated for a contest, they wouldn't give it a second thought about clicking on the button voting for the hot 20.

The Poser hot 20 is a joke. Don't go there or look or you will be disappointed. It has nothing to do with exceptional art, just how many people can clone accounts and persuade friends to vote for them.

Cheers is right. The #1 image has 39 votes, and there are a lot more Poser artists here than 39. Obviously most people do not take the time to vote or forget to vote, so IMO, it is not an accurate sampling.

The old method used the number of viewings during the period. IMHO, it was at least closer than the current method. At least it showed what was the most interesting to people, even if some of the images were not the best.

I guess it depends on your definition of "Hot". It would be interesting to have a "20 most viewed" and a "20 most voted" catgegory instead of a "Hot 20" category.

I gotta agree with Hisminky on this one. The true purpose of the top 20 has been utterly destroyed and so should the top 20 in my opinion.

You can't vote for your own unless you create a clone to vote. That would be pretty noticable I would think.

Hot 20 isn't regulated in any way so if a group wants to go and vote each others images in the only way to combat that is to get more active in voting. We can't not vote and then bitch about whats there.

...... Kendra

That may be so, Kendra. However, you only get ONE vote, how does one compete(ethically) with only one vote in 2 weeks? Additonally, there should be a ONE image limit to the hot 20. Eh, nevermind. I'm not interested in the Hot 20 and neither is management or they would have fixed it by now.

If you look at the "most viewed" list of the Poser gallery, it's pretty much the same kind of stuff that gets into the Hot 20...I think having the most viewed in two weeks would amount to the same thing as what gets voted into the Hot 20 and for the same reason...people would get their friends to look in and it is hard for someone without a club (of people) to break through. And the majority of people who bother to view and vote seem interested in amazingly identical figures. I think what Stormrage and Lyrra are doing is more interesting...they post the top ten of graphics they find of interest. I did the same thing this morning, which was ignored but at least I tried to highlight graphics I thought were different from the images we see on the Hot 20. I wish more people would do that so we could discover graphics that get buried in the flood of postings. My main complaint about the Hot 20 is that the best way to get in there seems to be to copy one that has already been there, so you end up with multiples of very similar looking images even when they are by different artists. There are exceptions, but they certainly are few and far between. There's no point actually in putting much emphasis on either views or hits. If you are doing graphics to get the attention of other people, then you know what you have to do to get the hits. If you are doing graphics for personal satisfaction, and you would like to share it, then post it on the forums. Of course you take the chance someone will flame you for that for no good reason than they have an agenda point they want to make this week, but at least you have some chance of getting viewed. If that's important to you. And it's not very important in the big scheme of things.

if you are talking about the 2 from RNKarenER...yup...she's got her graphics list groupies voting for her, once again. and...while we are on the subject of graphics lists...how many of you want your pics to be "tubed" in psp, and distributed as freeware on the web...gifs...common domain? i thought so. it's a damned shame that folks like that can get by with soiling our site. but, they do. all i can say is this: the hot 20, if even a popularity contest, is a bit of a contest, after all. i've actually made it a few times...but, that was back a couple of years ago, when, the competition meant something. now, i don't even bother to render for the poser gallery. why should i? folks who cheat tarnish the whole deal, and, make it worthless, in my eyes. i wish the admins would address this. because some of them not only cheat in making the 20, but belong to groups who slice up images made by others...make them transparent...and freely trade them, as if they were their own. and, yeah, if they are posting here, THEY KNOW that that is copyright infringement. now, i just won last month's rhino challenge. i made the rhino hall of fame with my model...you go girl!!! AND, i was the first female to ever win that...most likely, in the modelling forums, a female has not won before, period. that challenge was really important to me. soooo...did i contact all the folks i know at renderosity to vote for me? i could have. it would have been in the "rules". nope. why? because it would not have been fair. i wanted to "win". but, i wanted to be judged by folks who knew a bit about what they were voting for. otherwise, i would not felt like a winner, at all. only a cheater.

I guess I should elaborate on why I'm not interested. I pulled my galleries here for 2 reasons. 1) an earlier thread that was identical to this one, in which the person who was the subject of spamming the hot 20 had one of her thugs/friends/cronies spam my galleries. Normally I ignore such nastiness and would have until reason 2) I submitted to a publisher. The images he chose got fewer than 100 hits. That in inself was a revelation, but moreso the REASON he gave me. "Images XX and XX and XX while nice, are a bit too stereotypical T&A. for our readership" Wow, so I had been busting my BEHIND to be good enough for this place, only to discover that what the Hot 20 deems as fantastic is only soft porn that no PUBLISHER would touch? Revelation time. Apparently the Semi clad Vicki in a temple/where-ever with that come hither/vacant/my underwear is too tight expression is only fit for THIS forum. No one else wants it, at least not the people who have checkbooks and are WILLING to pay for images. Sure, if this is a hobby for you, then go right ahead and conform to the image style that is promoted here, there isn't anything WRONG with that. However, if you have it in your head that you want to be a professional illustrator one day, then run VERY FAR and VERY FAST from the stereotypical image of Vicky

...I think having the most viewed in two weeks would amount to the same thing as what gets voted into the Hot 20 and for the same reason...people would get their friends to look in and it is hard for someone without a club (of people) to break through. dialyn...you make sense. back in the old days, when i first came here...i made the hot 20 with my FIRST post. and, i knew no one. and, i asked no one to vote for me. folks get mad at me for taking my "old-line" viewpoint on how things "should" be. but, a couple of years ago, this place was much better. now, the galleries...especially the poser gallery is completely overridden by folks with friends who comment...and, doh...vote. i don't post there, anymore. many of the others who were good, and are just lurking now, do not either. r'osity's loss. for every RNKarenER they have gained, they have lost a LadyLight.

What protects the graphics on the Rhino or Bryce or any of the other galleries from being snagged just like the graphics from the Poser gallery are snagged? Absolutely nothing, and I'd wage each of the galleries is being cruised by statinary makers and tube makers and the rest for graphic possibilities ... for webpages, to be used in email, to be duplicated onto greeting cards and coffee cups. That is true of any graphic posted anywhere on the Internet, including personal websites. It's not unique or limited to the Poser gallery by any means. Unfortunately, if you look at how many people belong to Renderosity and how many bother to vote or even view, the latter are in the minority. But that's life in today's society.

Alas, Poppie. Change is inevitable, but it is not always inevitably good. :( It is sad that copies get more recognition than originals, but that may have as much to do with the quality of the audience as it does the quality of the artists.

What protects the graphics on the Rhino or Bryce or any of the other galleries from being snagged just like the graphics from the Poser gallery are snagged? i posted a pic of my last month's challenge, a sled....when it was a w.i.p. and, yes, i did plan on selling it. well, daz came out with a quick looking knock off 2 days after i won. modellers can just, basically, trace the outline of your model, if they see it...and make a quick knock off. now, i am not saying that i am sure this is the case with the daz sled....however, those runners sure fit. and, i requested some screen shots...heck...i'd love some screen shots of the wireframe for comparison. i got an email from the daz broker...that no one could reasonably mistake the two. however, i did...they were so similar it made my head want to explode. geeze, lots of stress. you say you do this as a HOBBY....man, it seems like liontaming would be more fun.

Poppi....gads, I can understand why you feel stressed. It's different for me...I'm basically just using other people's stuff to make mine (I'm only one step up from snagging in that at least I buy or have permission to use it) but you've got more invested in this since you're modeling and hoping to sell what you model. That's a lot of work and effort going into your creations. This stealing situation seems to be everywhere. There is a posting at the OT Forum about free stuff being taken from here and being sold on another site. I don't know where it all ends...I guess greed overcomes respect for the rights of other people. I don't understand the mentality myself....not the way I was brought up. :(

dialyn: I for one didn't ignore your post of images you found worthy. I appreciated it, and hope you'll continue when the fancy strikes you. I simply didn't feel moved to comment, that's all. I like that personal approach. It's cool, more interesting than the "who got how many votes" approach. It seems to me that "most viewed" is as meaningless as anything else, for the same old issues: Thumbnails are what encourage people to view full images. If lots of viewings are what you want, make sure your thumbnail is a closeup of a woman's breasts. While I like breasts and am not against erotica, I find this practice to be tacky, tacky. Regardless, it appears to come with this territory, and certainly increases views. Does that have anything to do with artistic merit? Sometimes, maybe, but in general, no. Even though I'm becoming as cynical as some in this thread regarding the Hot20, I still vote for images that I think deserve special recognition. Only one that I can remember made it, a brilliant, funny render of the DragonFolk playing cards by Tony S (whom I think goes by BigT here at Rosity.) I vote on what moves me. I wish that's how everyone voted so that the Hot20 could have a bit more integrity. As it stands, it's a mixture of very well done images and a silly popularity poll. I don't really see any way out of this unless there's a sea change of ethics in the Poser world. In the meantime, maybe we should view it with amusement and focus on things that matter more. As regards the person who keeps getting criticized, I dunno. I try to compliment her work now and then, in the spirit of encouraging a fellow newbie, but it's just so obvious that she has a clique of fans who will vote for her images en masse regardless of any significant consideration. But so long as they aren't a flurry of clone accounts, what can be done? Nothing, so far as I can see. Last time this subject came up she refused to consider the frustrations respectfully. Poppi, with all due respect for your skills, I'm certain that DAZ didn't rip off your idea. Several people have released sleigh models recently ... it's hardly an original motif (sleighs in general, that is, especially at Yule time.) Don't stress out ... go ahead and put your sleigh up for sale! You just might get some good sales, especially if it's less expensive than DAZ' model.

Trends. One week someone releases a cowboy. Next week, there are four. A Greek theme. Next week, five or more. Sleds ... well, you see that one. Spies and assassins -- check. Cyberpunk -- check. Wings and faeries -- check. It almost makes the paranoia exhibited by banning merchants from the private merchant forum look legitimate. I won't even touch the Hot 20 issue. After the last round of "discussion" over it ... Nope. Just not gonna do it.

Thank you, xoconostle. I apologize for leaping to a conclusion about no one viewing my earlier posting. It's not really important if anyone does...it would be nice if other people shared graphics they found of interest. When someone shares a "look what I found" post, I nearly always take a look, and I do vote for what I find of personal interest. I was amazed when the cardplaying dragonfolk made it into the Hot 20 because it was also one of my favorite. The whole dragonfolk series delights me. I did want to make clear I'm not accusing Daz of stealing Poppi's sleigh. I can't determine that one way or the other...I just understand how frustrating it is to put so much time and effort into something and find a very close copy turn up somewhere else. I agree with xoconostle...finish your sleigh and offer it. This is a big community....people like a selection of models to choose from.

I guess greed overcomes respect for the rights of other people. I don't understand the mentality myself....not the way I was brought up. :( yeah, me too. but, if cheating in the gallery is acceptable...then, the moral lines are weakened, shades of grey are brought into the equation. if it is okay to get list members...tubers, of other folks creations, who don't actually participate in this site (cough, community)to vote you into the 20. and, it seems our mods/admins do not care...because, hey now...some of the list folks might buy poser, or get it at kazaa, and then, there could be more folks who want this marketplace. i did the themes on several aol lists. they just don't swap tubes of others hard work...they swap all the programs that are out there for graphics. as for renderosity's "zero tolerance" policy....welli just think that an image someone creates and, loves, and strives to do their best on deserves the same treatment as the "zero tolerance" that they would show when someone gets poser from a warez site. but, under our "zero tolerance" rules...people from swapping lists can and DO, get their little "sharing" groups to vote them into the 20. AND...if you have a list of 100 or more peeps, how hard is it to put your pennies together, and buy ONE copy of anything on any of the marketplaces, and, to share it with the group. who will then share it with their friends, who will then share it with their friends, ad infinitum?

Wow, Poppi that's a bummer. I haven't seen your sled yet. I've been staying out of the Rhino forum since I need to get a few Real World things done before getting into my Rhino which finally arrived a few days back. :)

Instead of turning this thread into a version of the last time a group began dominating the H20, how about a listing of what you look for in a Hot 20 image?
For instance, this is the last image I voted for:

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=291566&Start=1&Sectionid=1&WhatsNew=Yes

What drew me to click the thumbnail was the how realistic the face was. What prompted me to vote was the obvious time spent on the expression and lighting and the fact that it was more than yet another Victoria standing in front of a backdrop with no artistic attempt to explain why she's just standing there. (an epidemic in the gallery lately)

...... Kendra

I did a test case of a thumb the other day....this one was the first one...

This one was the second one...guess which one got more hits? Correct, the one showing just a bit of boob. I've been lucky enough to have been in the Hot 20 in the Memorial Gallery right after 9/11 for some of my work. Yes, I agree that there is some complicity in the current system.

I hear a lot of posts saying: 'why don't the admins care about this or why don't the admins do anything about that'. Probably because they don't since they got money falling in their pockets. That's the shame of it. You ask a favor and it's like pulling teeth. I guess I wish I found this site a couple years earlier. Oh well, I don't understand the need to rate and compare art in the first place. It shouldn't be turned into a competition in my opinion. Just had to get that off my chest!

I don't think the people who snag graphic are profit makers for the administration. The fact is that tracking down graphic theft and getting anything done about it is very difficult. One notable example reported on Renderosity closed the list only to have the list owner open up the list elsewhere and make it so that only her selected few could get in. How do you track their activity if you can't look at what they are doing? I would be very reluctant to blame the administrators for what members are doing to each other. You don't want to hear it but these aren't mysterious being who come into the site and steal things ... they are your run of the mill Internet users, many of who are parents, upstanding citizens, hard workers, who probably also take pencils from work, run red lights, make personal copies and faxes at work, etc..... in other words, they are you and I in other skins. And a lot of them think everything posted on the Internet is free for the taking...so they take and have no conscience about it and will, in fact, defend what they do by saying the artist should feel complimented by their interest. I'm not saying it's right. But neither is stealing pencils, running red light, or doing personal copying at work. We can focus on this until another horse dies but I think blaming the administrators is taking the responsibility away from the people who are actually doing the theft. As far as I know, when the moderators have been alerted to such activity, they have tried to notify the owners of other sites and get some of the activity to stop. It is a huge problem and no one site is going to be able to stop the activity when people with no conscience and no sense of responsibility and no respect for others insist on continuing the activity. I had to get that off my chest.

Renderosity should have a protection where you can't right-click (internet explorer), or whichever and save-images and steal them. The moderators should really try to give us a little more protection there. Plus they should have a way where people can't have clone accounts, it just makes things even more messy.

To Adress Poppi's concerns: re: "I guess greed overcomes respect for the rights of other people. I don't understand the mentality myself....not the way I was brought up. :( " I have beta tested for that particular modeller for the last 3 years.That particular modeller has extremely high values and morals and would never stoop to what you are saying he did. I doubt that particular modeller even knows you exist or even goes to the particular forum you are talking about. That Modeller started that project late october. I spent hours online going to different sleigh ride sites getting reference images for them. And if you look around, sleighs like that do not vary very much in design. What you have basically said to this effect is: if you model a mustang and then someone else models a mustang then they took yours idea. Bullshit! I find your self absorbed concerns outlandish and petty. In NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM DID THAT PARTICULAR MODELLER KNOW YOU WERE WORKING ON THAT PROJECT! And this is just my opinion here but i do not even know if that modeller knows you exist. /end rant

I wish the mods and admins would pay attention. With the Hot 20 being manipulated by the selfish few, it hurts Poser artists as a "whole". Those of us that have been fighting in the trenches to get poser art accepted as legitimate are forver having to live with; "Poser? Oh, you mean that crap at the Rendo-something site? Its just porn." It's beyond frustrating and the main reason I will not post any images here. I REFUSE to have my work associated with the dreck that is most prevalant in the galleries. I at one time I wanted my peers(meaning other poser artists) to accept me and at lease give a credible critique of my images. Now, I'd rather avoid the stereotyping that is associated with this site. I don't need the ego boost or the trolling that goes on here. Yes, I blame the admins as they are the ones who can affect change. They are the ones that are contributing to the negative assumptions of Poser and Poser artists, BECAUSE they refuse the accept that this IS the largest Poser site. It entails certain RESPONSIBILITIES to represent Poser in the BEST possbile light. Oh yes, I hold them 100% responsible.

"I guess greed overcomes respect for the rights of other people. I don't understand the mentality myself....not the way I was brought up. :( That being me that was quoted. And I wasn't referring to Poppi's issue with the Daz sleigh with that quote. I was referring to someone taking stuff from the freebies here and selling it on another site. I really apologize for the poor phrasing of my original message. I should have addressed Poppi's concerns with Daz separately from the statement about the real theft of free stuff. But I didn't. And now I'm going to have to live with the results. Apologies yet again.

Hot20 - ho hum. People cheated with the most views; people cheat with the most votes. There are pathetic people out there. I value the critiques I get with my pictures and my writing, anything that helps me improve. Everything else is meaningless. Boobs = hits. No big suprise either. (Well, sometimes how big they are is a surprise, but I'm fairly immune to seeing watermelons nowadays.) Sleds created in December, not a big surprise. I think the DAZ sled looks like the one I used in a Christmas card last year. The style is classic. As for the mods not caring about the image stealers, I take some offense to that. I spent a chunk of my Thanksgiving weekend investigating the incredimail deal and what could be done about it instead of focusing on my writing. The problem is, there's only so much that can be done. It's off-site. It's like blaming the NYC police for a crime commited in Boston by a NYC resident. There's only so much we can do. Please give us some concrete suggestions on how we can better protect people's images and we'll be glad to help. Poppi - congrats on your Rhino challenge win, but you're not the first female to win a Rhino challenge here. You're likely the first one to win in a long time, but not the first female winner.

Hisminky- i removed my gallery for the same reason. I had a gallery here at one time because i did not have my own web site. I was asked by more than a few clients why i was posting my work at a soft porn site. I now have my own web site for my stuff.

er dialyn i owe you the apology- i read fast and tend to blur the names together- i still stand behind my statement about that particular modeller tho and will defend them to the gates of hell and back.

Okay, one last clarification for the road and then I'm going to bed. I don't hold the administrators responsible for the actions of the snaggers. That's what I was referring to. Snagging...stealing graphics. But, on second thought, actually, I can't see how you can hold them responsible for what people choose to post. The only way they could be responsibile for that is if they filtered each posting and made an evaluation of its artistic merit. And I bet most of us would really hate that. We are the ones who are posting (those who aren't too good for the galleries) and we are the ones who are viewing. That's not the administrators' fault if the majority of those who vote and view have "bad" taste (an evaluation that is subjective at best). It's our fault if we aren't eeking out the best of the galleries and viewing and voting for them, and encouraging the best out of others on the site. That's it for me. It's my responsibility for getting stuck in one of these endless threads again. I apologize to all of you taking up bandwith beating up this dead horse. Good night all. Hope you have pleasent dreams. Don't dream of mice, which is what I've started doing.

Cheryle....not a problem. I wasn't very clear. That's the problem with threads. Typing and reading fast both result in misunderstandings. I've been there many times.

seeking out....not eeking. Blame that typo on the mice squeaking through my dreams. That definitely is it for me. ;(

I can hold them responsible for allowing the Hot 20 joke to continue. If they TRULY wanted to promote Poser as a legitimate tool "and Poser Artists" as legitimage ARTISTS, they would improve the reputation that they are allowing to continue. Change the Hot 20 or get rid of it. How about allowing ONE image per artist per period? How about a buttom that says "I disagree, this image is NOT HOT 20" Have THAT button subtract from the votes. Have the Hot 20 for ONE rotation only, meaning if the image has ALREADY been in the hot 20, then it doesnt qualify for ANY MORE hot 20 galleries. Good grief, there are a lot of ways to clean it up.

if you are talking about the 2 from RNKarenER...yup...she's got her graphics list groupies voting for her, once again. and...while we are on the subject of graphics lists...how many of you want your pics to be "tubed" in psp, and distributed as freeware on the web...gifs...common domain? i thought so. As for my graphics list, I dont have one. As for the hot 20, either vote or stop complaining. Personal attacks on others are both unprofessional and are hurtful. Enough said.Most of the time folks here are very nice and helpful, but then there are those who are not happy unless they can complain about someone else. Just so you know Poopie~I havent had a graphics list for some time, and I would hope friends voted for my images, I cant image my enemies would.... DUH LMAO

Personal attacks on others are both unprofessional and are hurtful. << So you're immune from that? Or wasn't that an intentional misspelling of her name?

yup, it was a mis-spell

Well, I finally looked at the top 20. Not as bad as I thought, not as good oviously as it should be-- I do vote every night-- I only saw one pic I would have voted on tonight and that was Vali's dying priestess. Not even Toxic Angel's was up to his terribly high standard. But, I don't see it hurts Poser at all. It hurts the people who are voted in without merit, they lose the edge to create. Certainly doesn't hurt the ones not voted in-- is this a place you want to be compared to, doubt it. Kind of a ghetto of unmessed hair and ladies without souls behind their expressionless eyes. Pity the place, but don't envy it. There's no There there. Emily with apologies to Gertrude Stein.

As for the hot 20, either vote or stop complaining<< Actually, I do vote, so I have a right to complain. >>Most of the time folks here are very nice and helpful<< Yes, and those of us that tried to help, were in turn, trolled. Makes you wnder why most of us have stopped helping, doesn't it? >>I would hope friends voted for my images, I cant image my enemies would<< But that should be your goal, no? If your images are so good that your enemies are impressed, then you have accomplished something. I've looked at your images Karen, and you are improving. Hopefully one day all the suggestions I offered will make sense to you.

Thank you Hisminky, I am learning.Have a nice holiday

"How about a buttom that says "I disagree, this image is NOT HOT 20"
Have THAT button subtract from the votes."

Ooh I like that idea. I would have used it at least twice today. :) Unfortunately, until people realize the hot 20 is for good hard work and not friends it's rather worthless anymore.

...... Kendra

My goodness. Does stuff like this actually happen here? People can be so competitive, but why? I thought this was a forum full of artists, not a football game site or wrestling arena or even worse, gladiator combat. Artists generally do get along and respect one another from what I have known in the business and hobby side of the artistic world. If anything, a community forum such as this should be a team effort by the members that frequent here, not one of casino tactics or mob mentality. This place should be bound by the support and compassions of inspirations grown, learned, created and shared here. I had no idea artists could be so petty and devious towards each other, not when they thrive on so much creative caring. This all seems so cheesy.

I am with you Billy!

Billy, the pettiness started only recently, like within the last year or so. At least overtly at any rate. Unfortunately Renderosity has been overrun with a herd of "Me First" people that are bent on ruining what was built out of love for a particular idea, and that is promoting Poser. The newcomers have no idea about the time those of us "oldies" spent trying to make Poser an acceptable tool in the graphics industry. They don't care, either. They just want to make pretty pictures and have their friends oooh and ahhhh over them. Which is fine most of the time as Poser was originally a hobbyist program. Poser has grown beyond a mere hobbyist tool(who can remember using Poser 1 or 2? I can.) When the only models were the ones supplied? We have a huge respository of models and clothes now that far exceed even the programmers vision of Poser. Its TIME Poser was accepted as a professional tool. Karen, no offense, but you haven't got a CLUE about what I am saying. All you have ever been concerned with is what you can get out of it. My agenda is MUCH different. I want to be able to submit my images to Publishers and not have them point out with MUCH hostility that Poser is PORNOGRAPHY. Even if the image is a set of fully clothed models. That is the impressions that PUBLISHERS have are GARNERED from this site. I wish, nay BEG the Admins to do SOMETHING about the HOT 20, so that WHEN these publishers point out that Poser is just for PORNOGRAPHY and POOR QUALITY images, I can refute that and PROVE it is a legitamate TOOL. This Community should NOT be about the least common denominator, but rather it should set the STANDARD about Poser being a fantastic TOOL for graphic artists to use.

I have never seen any of your poser art Hisminky, so I cant comment. But the HOT 20 does need to go, or at least re-vamped. I do think that this forum should be a place of support and help and not a constant bitch session. It is un-productive and silly.If you want poser art to be taken seriously , then it needs to start here with acting serious and not petty, back biting. I welcome any helpful comments, always have and will. Good night

dialyn: I also took a look at your list. I like that idea a lot more than any form of competition. Competition, inevitably becomes politics. Sorry I didn't comment on your choices. Didn't feel it was necessary.. will do so next time. Till then thanks. I rarely comment in galleries. I don't remember ever voting for any image. That's not what they're there for, that's not for me, anyways. When I do comment, it's worth it. I say re-integrate the galleries, to hell with the purists and the politics and let's have a visual feast. Well put Billy. Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Actually, this relative newbie has observed, time and again in recent months, that it's frequently "old timers" who bitch and moan and attack and drag this place down the most. And then there are the upbeat, altruistic ones... I suppose Poser enables cheap homemade pornography. So does the existence of the pencil. Someone ought to do something about that! :-) The fact that this is a rapidly growing free site with minimal TOS restricting content means that the least common denominator will always exist. Perhaps it exists so that those who strive to improve, find insight, create beauty, achieve skills, build portfolios and enjoy Poser will have something to rise above. I deplore the attacks on the admins. It's not their fault that scoundrals exist. Renderosity is under absolutely no obligation to host our images. It's a generous courtesy which is administered very well in my not so humble opinion. I laugh at graphics professionals who scorn Poser, just as I laugh at artists who refuse to paint with acrylics because they're plastic. Media are a means to an end. Poser is what we make it as individuals. The watermelons next door don't spoil my melting watches. :-) Just a few thoughts in response to this overheated thread...

Billy: You've never been to an "art school", have you? There's more backbiting there than at a law school or a theatre troupe. On the one hand, there's a good side... "By gawd, I'm going to make this next piece perfect, so that it stands out head and shoulder's over Billy Bob's work!" On the other hand, there's the more visible, and unfortunately more common, bad side... "Billy Bob is popular, and a good artist... so I'll come up with some cheap and easy thing to do to steal his thunder... like upstaging him in the second act, or tossing fecal matter onto a two hundred year old pewter plate and call it 'Corporate America'..." I, for one, take a third option. "I'm not the best, but I'm improving as time goes on...I think I'll have fun with my art, and make pictures that amuse me and maybe get a chuckle. An occasional pinup is fine, but gimme the gags any day."

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

What is all this fuss over? And why is this forum not being used constructively? This looks like childess attacks which make you no better then the ones you accuse of wrong doing! GROW UP Poppi and the rest of you who make fun and degrade this site. This site doesnt have to post your art! And I can go to the bathroom to read crap! Support your administrators!

Katrina... calm down. It's okay. And there is a valid complaint here. While I do not agree with some of the points raised, I, myself, have absolutely no respect for the Hot 20.

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

i have just one question for everyone here. ANd I want you to all stop and think about it and give me a clear answer Why is the HOT 20 so important? Do you really and honestly think some one who is coming here to find the next and greatest artist is looking only at the HOT 20 and nothing else? Answer me that.

I dont! I give a hoot about the hot 20. I like the art. the pure beauty of it, The hot 20 can be just a popularity contest. I get such pleasure in visiting galleries of the artists who pour there soul into this.

Yannow... I think I've looked at the "Hot 20" all of ten or twelve times in the past year? So, from my point of view, Stormrage, it's NOT so important. The Freestuff section and the galleries themselves are far more important than the "Popular 20"

Remember, kids! Napalm is Nature's Toothpaste!

CryptoPooka: "Trends. (...) Spies and assassins -- check." I feel a need to react: I can assure you that my assassin is in no way connected to any trend. First, it started as something else, as is usually the case with my pictures. Second, I generally don't cruise galleries and I don't know what's in them. I'm on a modem and downloading great number of big pictures is a pain. Third, I did a search in the galleries to see all the assasins, and after a couple of pages, I see mine is different. It's a male, kinda. Fourth, it's also different in being in Bryce gallery ... well, I'm not certain whether to post the link, but here it is anyway: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=278129 Everybody, feel free not to view it, if you think this is blatant self-promotion. Finally, I may be jumping at shadows. If I am, I apologise. Karma: "Renderosity should have a protection where you can't right-click (internet explorer), or whichever and save-images and steal them." The ONLY way to protect your picture is not to put it on the Web. (Or put a great big watermark all over your picture, but noone would be able to see it then.) Once it's displayed in somebody's browser, it's impossible to prevent anything.

-- erlik

Same old rehash except for one brilliantly bizarre note, Hisminky blaming the Renderosity admins for his/her not getting published. Now, I'm waiting for Al Gore to blame his election loss on Tipper's hairdresser. If a publisher is going to dismiss someone's work based on the tools used to create it then or what other people have done with that tool, then blame that person for being narrow minded, ignorant or just plain stupid. If anyone has the main responsibility for promoting Poser, it's Curious Labs. That's why they have galleries displaying what they consider some of the best art created with the program. Of course, they do have at least one naked lady in there so perhaps they too fail to realize the heavy burden of their responsibility.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

just posting to uncheck the damn ebot spam thing thing.

I've found a simple solution to getting illustrations published that were done in poser and vue. Don't tell the publisher how you did it until they have accepted the work. I've been asked what medium I'm using, had pieces mistaken for airbrush work and had one editor convinced I was telling him fibs when I said that it was entirely CG without any post production. I'm not even using custom models most of the time. Just the Daz figures, hair and cloathing with a few props and scenery I've built myself. I tend to tweak the textures which helps to give them an original look. I do spend quite a lot of time making each figure look like an individual so they don't suffer from looking like the same old Mike and Victoria models straight off the CD.

impworks | vue news blog | twitter | pinterest

Well there you go, after all these years I thought that art was about expressing ones self, and not about getting to the top, or moaning about who was at the top of a "hit parade". Geez, the "Hot 20" means absolutly nothing, people! As I said before there are more important things to worry about. If a piece of art impresses me, I will always take the time to send a personal email to the artist...that alone should mean more to an artist than a "Hot 20". Can you imagine going to the Tate Gallery, and having a wall showing the top 20 paintings for that week...NO! Enough said ;o) Cheers

 

Website: The 3D Scene - Returning Soon!

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--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

Same old rehash except for one brilliantly bizarre note, Hisminky blaming the Renderosity admins for his/her not getting published.<< Either you misread my posts or you deliberately interpreted them wrong just to sound quasi-informed. I've BEEN published, and been paid for it as well. As far calling the person who writes my paycheck as being stupid for thinking Poser is a program to create porn, exactly where are they to get a clue otherwise, as this is the largest Poser site on the web?

"Can you imagine going to the Tate Gallery, and having a wall showing the top 20 paintings for that week...NO!" That would be pretty hilarious though. :)

I do feel pretty sorry for people who need to have friends vote for their image. Sad to see that they need that kind of self-assurance. And yes, the poser hot 20 is corrupt, it should be removed.

I guess I'm the only one not bothered by the idea of friends voting. That's what friends do, and I don't think anything would eliminate that. It's not as if we have many people who are trained art critics on the lists so I'm not sure I distrust the opinions of my friends anymore than I would distrust the opinions of strangers. I invite my friends to view my graphics....they aren't members so they can't vote (nor would I ask them to) but I do like to share what small accomplishments and progress I have. That's just natural, and natural for friends to vote for friends. Not horrific. Not the collapase of the universe. Natural. The Hot 20 just isn't that important. If someone feels compelled to do something that gets them on the list, then let them have their fun. It's meaningless and hurts no one. Is it corrupt? Well, no more so than anything else that encourages random voting. No one has to post in the galleries. I just don't get the point of people telling us over and over again that they don't (especially when they make a point of telling us their art is too good for the likes of us....that really is unnecessarily insulting). If you post anywhere on the Internet, you take the risk of getting ripped off (whether or not it is your own website, whether or not you have right click disabled, whether or not you splash watermarks and copyright notices all over the graphics). The Internet is not a civilized place. Since it goes out to the entire world, policing is a very difficult thing. I don't have a great solution, obviously...it's just something we all have to be aware of.

well, what i'm getting at is that it's ok for friends to vote for your image.. if they truely think it deserves it. Not telling a friend they have to vote for an image or just out of courtesy. It should come from the heart of what you think is good, not by someone telling you to vote. Images should be quality NOT quantity! Putting out 3 images per day would be quite difficult if it were to have quality. Instead there are people who are just cranking out images left and right, a figure standing in front of a backdrop staring into space like a vegtable. I personaly think an image should come from the heart and that you try to put all your effort in it. It's not a contest on how many you can post per day or how many views you get.. Really it should be for your own personal satisfaction, but originality is quite lacking these days...

When I go to a real art gallery I don't vote for art pieces, no thumbs up or down. To vote is to compare and something's always lost in the comparison. I try to become the work, to feel what the artist was feeling, to hear the sound of the brushes on the canvas, to breathe in the dust of the sculpted stones. It's a privilege for me to vieuw a work of art, not the other way around. If you speak to me with respect you may get my attention, if not, you won't. Hot 20 or not. Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

It's all a matter of taste. There are people who really like to create and stare at the staring figures. I don't know why, but they do. And I am not sure I'm the one to criticize them. The best advice anyone gave here was to ignore the voting, ignore the hits, and do what you most want to do without letting the popularity contest get to you. Frankly I can spend hours and hours on a single graphic and still have it come out looking like amateur night in the Poser lounge. I just don't have the ability of other people here. Speed doesn't mean lack of ability. Spending time on a graphic doesn't necessarily result in quality. It's just different levels of skill for different people. We have to accept that people with wildly different interests and abilities are trying to coexist in the same gallery, and the result is going to be a little chaotic. But there are some very interesting graphics being posted. Sort through the identical pictures and you can find some thoughtful creations. That's what I wish we would focus on. The Vickys in the Temple get all the advertising. Why not do more promoting of the original spirits on the galleries?

Dialyn, When I meant quality, it should be an image that you want to create. Not just putting images out to get views or what is popular i.e. naked vicki's (i'm not trashing nudity, but really it should be something tasteful in my opinion, not soft porn). I understand that renderosity hosts a wide range or artists, postwork shouldn't be everything. Postwork isn't the quality I was talking about. (Heavily postworked poser images should be in mixed medium anyways!) It should be an image that comes from you and your feelings. But somehow it seems like the artists that constantly post images each day, nonetheless 2-3 PER day usually make images that I often dislike (i.e. female standing about with no expression or reason to be standing there). But that is my opinion. Anyhow, you're right, the best advice that came out of this string is to "ignore the voting, ignore the hits, and do what you most want to do without letting the popularity contest get to you."

Karma, I agree with many of your points....though I probably feel less strongly about postwork than most people. I'm not a purist about such things, but that's just me. I've looked at your gallery and you obviously put a lot of thought and heart into your graphics...I wish everyone did the same. All I can say is that if people paid more attention to the carefully crafted and created graphics, then we might see more people inclined to put more time and energy into each graphic. Maybe if no other good comes from this thread, some people will be inclined to check out your gallery and discover the treasures there. I know that wasn't your intent but it would be a good investment of their viewing time. :)

I almost missed your response between all of the hair-pulling and name-calling. I'm going to have to be embarassed here and admit that I have no idea who you are, Erlik. But I'm a good girl and just looked you up. I think we got our wires crossed somewhere before you started defending yourself. I wasn't talking about gallery image trends at all, but the similarities in goods that show up in cycles (a segue from dialyn and Poppi's earlier posts about the sled). You're jumping at shadows. ;) As to the rest of your post about trying to protect images on the web ... ugh, I have to agree with you. The only "safe and sure" method is not to show it to anyone. I'm starting to think that use of the internet should hinge upon a mandatory study volume when you first hook up your new computer, with a test afterwards and you have to pass to get anything other than the most basic connection required to send the test and registering your software and system. And a mandatory psych exam while we're at it. Jeeze, people, switch to decaf already.

Absolutely no need to be embarassed. I usually hang out over in Bryce forum and started coming here only since I got Poser 5. Sorry for misunderstanding you. BTW, are you talking about an Internet driving exam? If so, I'm all for it and been advocating it for some time. :-) Anyway, I'm going to jump into the fray: Dialyn: "Speed doesn't mean lack of ability. Spending time on a graphic doesn't necessarily result in quality. It's just different levels of skill for different people." Speed doesn't have to mean lack of ability and can mean a higher level of skill. But I know several artists/illustrators/animators in RL. None of them creates three good finished images in one day. Yes, of course, it can happen they were working on a couple of images and the end of work coincided, but it's an exception, not a rule.

-- erlik

did i notice? no, i have a life ;) okay, not MUCH of a life, but more of one than to bother worrying about the top 20 and who votes for what.

"Yes, of course, it can happen they were working on a couple of images and the end of work coincided, but it's an exception, not a rule. " Heh, this is what caught me recently. I had a project tossed my way, and money is money. I put aside several pieces I'd been working on in favour of cash. When the project was done, I had two or three "near" finished images that I'd been doodling on in rare free time when I needed to unwind. Sudden flurry of Pooka postings, followed by the usual gap. But 3 every single day? Gack. They must have at least 8 hands and as many computers. I'm jealous. :)

Well, if they are doing 3 very fine graphics a day, then they aren't doing anything else. Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that I could work on a graphic for a month and not necessarily have anything wonderful to show for the time invested in it. While three a day may seem too many for doing quality work, for some of us even one a day would not result in improvement. Does that make sense? And I'm not speaking of anyone but myself when I write that. I am so plateaued that if I only posted once a month, it would be too many for someone looking for improvement. I'm just saying that time spent does not automatically result in quality work. That's all.

well....having your friends voting you into the hot 20 is a "grey" area, at best. TROLLING ANOTHER'S GALLERY, AND BRINGING DOWN THEIR RANKINGS IS YET ANOTHER. That is what happened to me, today, while I was at work. I certainly hope that the admins fix it, quickly. i even got a "heads up" nastygram, informing me...or, rather alerting me that something could be horribly wrong. NOW you see the calibar of the person we're dealing with here? here's the little "heads up" nasty gram...and, yup.....she must have gone through and given my pics the most stinko rating you can find cause some of them went down 2 levels. Subject: up yours Instant Message from RNKarenER: thanks Miss Honorable, I needed a good laugh~~after I saw your gallery I had a real snicker! Have fun trolling, but you wont bother me in the least (Sent 12/9 08:38) [Reply] [Reply & Delete] [Reply & Archive] [Archive] [Delete]

Karma "Renderosity should have a protection where you can't right-click (internet explorer), or whichever and save-images and steal them. The moderators should really try to give us a little more protection there." no right click is a javascript, and can be circumvented by not having javascript enabled on your browser. a nocache header for ALL of Renderosity would solve the using the cached image files. I know that Boris and Julie have a good system, if you right click it will allow it, but you get a heavy watermarked image. I think that is done with a redirect. both of these are SERVER configurations, not scripting. the nocache can be scripted into the headers for every page on a site. ( look at how much work that would be ) hmmm....if the upload script was to make a "thumbnail" and store that for display, with no cache activated, and at the same time "watermark" the image with the Artist's name, that is what people would get when right clicking and saving as... ~wandering off thinking about how that would have to be coded...~

Poppi, Something similar happened to me today too, except I didn't recieve an IM like you. I checked in on one of my images and it had dropped 2 rankings too. And guess who left a comment? Yup, RNKarenER. She left an alright comment, but I'm pretty sure that she gave me the worst ranking availible to drop my image. I thought she wrote something to this effect "Personal attacks on others are both unprofessional and are hurtful." Who's the immature one here??

i notified jeffh about this. it is just for her to do stuff like that...i just got an im from yet ANOTHER member who actually pulled their gallery...and, miz karen did the same to her. what a piece of work. i think you should be sure and let a mod know about what happened...you can link to this thread, if you like...and they will see you aren't the only one...i wrote to jeffh about this. it is definitely against the tos...no grey area, this time.

Hmmmmm, seems to me these personal attacks are getting out of hand. Ladies, calm down. as a member of renderosity I sit and watch this go on and have to think " are these professionals" Just a thought as a fan.

Posting to remove the e-bot notification.

Trolling, what a weird term. So in other words if someone actually has a comment that may be anything other than beautiful and lovely they are condsidered a troller? Trolls are such ugly creatures, I wonder how this came about? Wonder why they did not call this a goblin or gremlin? Why do people not want to be told how to improve their images? And then they call names like troll and spite those that may offer some advice by getting them back which would then make them a troll too? I don't understand. I looked at the top twenty and cannot understand myself why so many images are similar. Some are absolutely great, others are so, so, and it is the fact some are not at all the best they probably could be that I wonder about. Should these not be the best they can be? I am not an artist myself so I may be flamed for this because I have no work to share. I just happen to enjoy art galleries and art forums and like looking at the visuals they offer on display. If a non artist like me can see mistakes or art that is not better than many in the gallery that perhaps should be on the top twenty instead, then maybe there is a problem? Does anyone else feel this way too? Will I also be a troll now for saying this? I hope not.

You're not a troll if you comment on someone else's graphic. You're a troll if you make personal attacks or maliciously spam another artist ... if you are not making constructive criticism but harrassing another individual. At least that's my take on it. Nothing you have said would qualify. Generally, but not always, people who open their artwork for comments are hoping to learn what you like and what might be done to improve their graphics.

Hisminky, whatever dude. I did get that you've been published. Good for you. I stand by the assertion that anyone who would look at your work and then say, in effect, "OK but I've looked at Renderosity so this is porn," ain't right bright. Where else should they look? I did a Google search on 'Poser.' Curius Labs, Inc. is the first listing. Renderosity isn't even on the first page of results.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Hisminky, whatever dude<< Last time I checked, I was a girl.

I am fast losing respect and patience with people who ooh and aah over EVERY render, no matter how good or bad. If they do that (and I am not nec. referring to Karen's pictures), how seriously can I take them on feedback on mine... it's always the same gushing? And now comes the usual shit of "Turn comments off", riiiiiight... which I would if it wasn't for the few REALLY constructive remarks. Now, tell me, what is Hot20 about YET another dull-skinned space-chick staring right at you with crossed eyes???

L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.

BillyJ, I offer the following definition of the terms 'troll' & 'trolling' which has been posted & reposted across usenet for at least a few years... 1. v.,n. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also YHBT. 2. n. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll." Compare kook. 3. n. [Berkeley] Computer lab monitor. A popular campus job for CS students. Duties include helping newbies and ensuring that lab policies are followed. Probably so-called because it involves lurking in dark cavelike corners. Some people claim that the troll (sense 1) is properly a narrower category than flame bait, that a troll is categorized by containing some assertion that is wrong but not overtly controversial. See also Troll-O-Meter. The use of `troll' in either sense is a live metaphor that readily produces elaborations and combining forms. For example, one not infrequently sees the warning "Do not feed the troll" as part of a followup to troll postings.

Attached Link: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/The-Jargon-Lexicon.html

my apologies I forgot to include the link to visit if you want to look up any of the more popular 'terms of endearment' present on the net :-)

Thank you cooler. I am now a troll expert thanks to you. I believe I have met quite a few trolls, and still know some. Now I know what to watch out for and no more bad dates.

Hisminky, sorry madame. BTW, making money from your work is indeed admirable. It may take a bit of time but poser (and Daz) will garner a larger market, tarining, marketing, print, video the internet... It'll be more dificult (and poorer business sense) to dismiss the tools or stereotype their uses. Good luck!

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken