I had made a comment that my past attempts with using subdivision surfaces proved futile and I could not see it as very useful. On the TSML somone posted a link to an SS toilet they had made. The image was of the finished product as well as a partially obscured control mesh. So, I began to try and emulate what had been done. Along the way, I decided I wanted more detail. Such as the rim that is commonly seen on the toilet bowl. The image I came up with looks surprisingly good despite it being loaded with errors. No toilet that I have ever seen has a base that is basically two sections. I know that the cause is the face that divieds the wide front base from the narrower reasr base. But when I delete that face the whole model goes haywire. I first started with a cube, working from the front I added two vertical vertices and then selected that face to extrude it. I then built the rear with another cube and just boolean unioned the two together. Should I not have done that? Now, Who do I get the rim of the bowl to be more squared off on the top and sides without making the bowl look squarish? Should I just add more steps to the shape of the bowl? BTW, the rim was made sperately from a cubw hollowed out and then unioned to the bowl. This is pretty much my first real model done on my own. Not counting hollowed out cylinders and cubes used on buildings. OK, with help from the original reference image. Pete J.