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Lights and Shadows - A Study with FireFlies

Critique Work In Progress posted on Nov 14, 2009
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Description


This is sort of a follow-up on the discussion on the Poser Forum thread: Question for the staff about "Advisory". In that thread I suggested that we could use this gallery as a tool to share and critique and learn from each other. So, I thought I set the ball rolling with this image. Lots to say about it. It's like what I say about where I used to live: it's a great place to be *from*. This is a good place to start because there are so many areas that I need to get a grip on, particularly lighting. First, some stats. Program... Poser 7, SR3 Render engine... FireFly, manual settings: -- Cast Shadows, Raytracing, Smooth Polygons and Use Displacement Maps ticked -- Raytrace bounces: 2 -- Irradiance caching: 20 -- Pixel Samples: 5 -- Min Shading Rate: 0.75 -- Max bucket size: 32 -- Min Displ bounds: 0.008 -- Post filter type: sync Everything else is at default Lights... 4 lights: -- Point Shadow: 1.000 Map Size: 1024 R: .996, G: .996, B: .754 Intensity: 52% xR: -4, yR: -2, zR: 1 Scale: 100% xT: -145, yT: 235, zT: 3240 Shadows: RT, SBRadius: 6.0, SMBias: 1, AO on: .7 -- Infinite Shadow: 1.000 Map Size: 2048 R: .996, G: .996, B: .754 Intensity: 52% xR: -4, yR: -2, zR: 1 Scale: 55% Shadows: DM, SBRadius: 2.0, SMBias: 1, AO on: .7 -- Infinite Shadow: 1.000 Map Size: 512 R: 1, G: 1, B: 1 Intensity: 55% xR: -19, yR: -35, zR: 7 Scale: 55% Shadows: RT, SBRadius: 2.6, SMBias: .2, AO off -- IBL Shadow: 1.000 Map Size: 128 R: 1, G: 1, B: 1 Intensity: 35% xR: -111, yR: 39, zR: 342 Scale: 55% Shadows: None Character(s)... my Charlotte for V4.2, available here in the freebie section, with a new skin shader I've been playing with in Matmatic with the help of Bagginsbill. Props... Hair: Neftis' Coiffure Celeste, available at Daz [http://www.daz3d.com/i/3d-models/-/coiffure-celeste-hairstyl?item=6372&_m=d] -- Added Bantha's GC shader to all materials Pretty3D's Boots, Jeans and Belt from Be Relax!, available here [http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=71845] -- Added Bantha's GC shader to all materials except metal on the Belt Hongu's Cowgirl Jacket, available here [http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=66380] -- Added Bantha's GC shader to all materials except on the Button Terradome, by Colm and Traveler, available at RuntimeDNA [http://www.runtimedna.com/Runtime-DNA-s-TerraDome.html] -- This was a hard one... wasn't sure where to plug in GC, since there was a fairly elaborate shader plugged into the Alt_Spec channel, so I kinda left the zones alone. I did add GC code to the Skydome - that was more straightforward. Charlotte's pose is mine (whoop-dee-doo, right?). Render time was about 1 hour, 10 minutes. Post work: added a black background because zone 2 and 3 had a gap, which I just painted black for now. I'm going to put BB's water shader on the ground and see how that looks. Feel free to leave *constructive* comments, any and all welcome. [2] Hair-do re-done.

Comments (18)


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mariogiannecchini

1:54AM | Sat, 14 November 2009

Non sono in grado di capire i dati immessi ( sono solo fotografo ) ma mi piace molto questa immagine per l'illuminazione sulla modella . Are not able to understand the data entered (only photographer) but I really like this picture for the lighting on the model.

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NoelCan

2:27AM | Sat, 14 November 2009

I like the lighting, skin texture (and others) are You using RDNA's TerraDome? The hair is impressive. And the lighting is far better than I have achieved (so far).. I really do hope that Your experiment comes to life.. A place where "artists" can go for genuine critical comment..

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efron_241

6:16AM | Sat, 14 November 2009

wonderful lady in long jeans

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RobynsVeil

6:39AM | Sat, 14 November 2009

Not sure if I can leave a comment on my own page but here goes: This was rendered in Poser 7. This is very much a WIP, and as such should be a target for discussion rather than a finished piece of artwork. Lights and shadows: tried something a bit different, here. You will notice that the point and infinite lights are in exactly the same virtual place. This is by design. I was going to modulate the harshness of ray-traced shadows with the softness of depth-mapped ones emanating from the same point in space. Except: depth-mapped shadows cannot be done with a point-light (which was my original light) so I had to go with an infinite light. Now, if this is rubbish, would someone PLEASE tell me my solution is a bogus one and tell me a better way to approach this. I came up with this notion based on a dead-end thread and thought I'd try it.

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P3Design

7:05AM | Sat, 14 November 2009

I love that lights you've used, it gives a nice shade.

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SpookieLilOne

10:56AM | Sat, 14 November 2009

Wow Robyns she is amazing :)

Northlandsplasher08

10:56AM | Sat, 14 November 2009

I like the setup for this image and I understand how frustrating getting your lighting set to look right. I use DAZ/studio so I'm not sure exactly how it would work in poser, but in the past I've used fill lights at a right angle to the "shadow" light to soften the effect along with the shadow softness setting that is available through studio lighting controls. I'm sure that you could get a similar effect in poser with time and trials (heh yeah more work). I wish you best of luck and feel free to drop me a note if I haven't made myself clear to you and I will be happy to attempt to clarify myself.

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santicor

12:51PM | Sat, 14 November 2009

The fit of the clothing - all pieces- could not be more perfect. The pose is fantastically realistic - these factors make the subject very real and very HOT. I dont understand exactly what the sun lightsource is in this composition when i look at her face. I also would think that although it is a subdued washed out gray day up there in the sky, her skin would prob have bit more color/vibrance being that she is outdoors.

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xpersona

4:49PM | Sat, 14 November 2009

Very beautiful and interesting work. Congratulations for the author.

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RobynsVeil

5:06PM | Sat, 14 November 2009

Thanks to all... :) @ Santicor: For the jeans I actually stripped off the added morphs Pretty3D put in, then added Charlotte-specific morphs with Dimension3D's Morphing Clothes. Voila, perfect fit. I do try the existing morphs first, and if they work, then good, otherwise it's nice to have Morphing Clothes... really good investment (shameless plug for D3D, wasn't that??) The light source is my biggest challenge. There was some mention of adjusting the shadow-cam in order to make shadows work properly on the Poser forum, but I don't think I have it down quite yet... need to play a bit with that. Her eyes do reflect the "sunlight" but it could be the DM infinite light is obliterating the effect of the pointlight. Might have a play with changing intensities, scale (does that really do anything??)... drop me a sitemail if you have any ideas or further comments... and THANK YOU to all who have commented.

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EnaR

3:58PM | Sun, 15 November 2009

Beautiful render, - I just love the pose and expression ;o)))))))))))

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callad

11:57AM | Mon, 16 November 2009

Well hon, you have got me reading for the past 20 minutes or so.. :) I applaude your effort to give ALL info about the setting you used for the image, but must admit (since I do not have Poser) most of it is mumbo jumbo to me.. (That's french for: "...I haven't got a single CLUE wot you are talking about...") As for the realism thread; I stopped uploading images in the realism section, since when I did, after a few months or so, I always though: "..auch, did I upload that one in the realism section??.." Felt like ducking and running then.. I have uploaded only one image that 'holds a promise for the future' in the realism department.. 'Early Morning Light'.. But then I can burn that one to ground when I tell you were all the flaws are.. :) Realism in my images IS a goal I am striving for though the tool I use isn't suited for doing it properly. (Check back in my gallery in about 15 years or so, maybe I figgered it out then :) Having said that I also think realism ALONE isn't enough.. The image presented MUST have that 'lil' extra' that makes it worth viewing, so there we agree :) Now back to your image, the reason I clicked the e-bot in the first place.. smiles What I like about it is the character, her pose and her clothing. Now the BG I am not too fond of to tell you the truth.. The fact the image has no DOF (except the sky) takes away the focus of your lovely girl. To reduce that I would have cropped the image severely to keep the focus on her. ~That~ or, I would tried to give the BG some DOF. The rocks in the BG could be rendered seperately and then with a blurr in a postwork program you could do that easily, unless you wanted to have a pure render without postwork, that is.. For a nature scene the grass is too perfect. A possible solution could be to use a different texture on the plane. Also a non-flat plane would help, maybe a -ground- exported as obj from Bryce or another app that is able to deal with large terrain objects. As far as the lighting goes I have little to offer you in the Poser department cuz, as said, I do not have that app. I can only tell you what I would have done in DS. To give the image a more dynamic feel I would have placed a tree (not in sight of the camera) to get some shadowplay in the scene. Finally I see a hair-poke-through on her blouse (correct me if I am wrong..) Tsssk Robyn! That's a no-no and you know that.. Okies, now you can shoot me.. :P Charley :)

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RobynsVeil

4:20PM | Mon, 16 November 2009

Quite the contrary, Charley, you get a bit HUG from me, dear... and thank you! This is what I'm after. This image is deliberately an unfinished work. Now, I realise I'm breaking all sorts of rules posting something unfinished (heck, this is only just roughed-in!) but oh well... I can turn your views on what I omitted doing into what I need to consider doing next and have a go. You notice at the bottom of all the dialogue is a link to another image (detail) which is the continuation of that scene's development. I'm slowly learning about all the different ways to render images - things I hadn't even thought about or understood until now (thank you Lisa Richie!!) - but I'm also becoming aware that artwork involves more than just placing a figure amongst props and rendering: intent to "say something" with your image helps. DOF... I'll need to figure out how that's done in Poser. I agree: the distant detail is too crisp to be believable. Oh, and in that image at the bottom of that page, I did fix the poke-through. How embarrassing! That I should have seen and fixed before submitting... :P

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kobaltkween

3:48PM | Tue, 17 November 2009

this is a cool idea. there's a WIP gallery, too, just to let you know. so to begin with the lighting, it seems off from the background photo, and the background photo seems affected by it. the sky and clouds seem uniformly darkened. also the clouds show a light coming from high, i think the front, and (our) left. the shadow streaming away from her and the lighting on her breast shows a light that seems too low. the other technical difficulty the background creates is a shadow from the clouds. they definitely should darken the ground behind her. i'm really not sure how you could mimic the appropriate change in directional and therefore ambient light. this type of scene is why i'd like to get Vue. a bigger differential in lighting (unblocked sunlight on her, clouded behind) would give her more emphasis. she doesn't quite need it, because the background is too plain to distract, but it's also too plain to interest. the composition needs more elements, and i think that should come before lighting decisions. especially since this is currently a "girl standing there" image, as i like to call them. i can say 90% of pro CG work falls into the "(fill in the blank) standing there" classification (and there are only a few things to fill in that blank- male humanoid, female humanoid, monster, and robot pretty much covers it). so it's not what most seem to view as a failing. and i've certainly fallen into that more than i like. but i think works are better with some sort of story, or some sort of mood and meaning to the pose rather than just "look at me." simple portraits are great, but they should have something individual about them. a more active or emotive pose and expression would help. i'd especially focus on the hands and hips. i like the fall of her hair and the set of her shoulders, even if they are fairly typical. i think it's partly because the hair makes the best diagonal in the piece, and strong diagonals always make your composition more active. also, you might want to try to use the figure to split the scene into one third/two thirds, rather than half and half. i like the top, but the material seems to be trying to mimic satin. for one, that's just very, very hard to do realistically. i don't know if i've ever seen satin successfully rendered. i think it's because satin is rather unreal in reality. also, satin doesn't match the lower half of her outfit. it also stands out in an otherwise natural palette. i think it would be fine to keep the pink satin top (with some improved satin materials, if you make it more clear visually why it's so different and what that means. like something to show that the denim and leather show her capabilities and practicality (ignoring the stiletto heels), and then something to emphasize the more playful and girlish aspects of the pink satin. oh, and bagginsbill always told me that blurred raytraced shadows in P7 worked great. you shouldn't need multiple lights. even if you find the blurring grainy, iirc, there's a Python interface to the shadow sampling. i think you've got a very solid start, and it will be interesting to see where you go from here. in general, the more you think of everything as one piece, where everything needs to fit together (either contrasting or complementing), the better the finished product is.

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lior

8:22PM | Sun, 20 December 2009

Excellent lights settings!

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kasalin

12:43AM | Mon, 25 January 2010

Cool and fantastic image. Excellent work !!! Hugs Karin :)

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mistressotdark

1:32PM | Mon, 01 March 2010

she looks cool :D

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AnnieD

9:28PM | Mon, 06 December 2010

Lovely!


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