Maybe it's time for you and the admin staff to step forward and allay the fears of all us wild-eyed conspiracy theorists. If you've been following the several AOY threads (and I'm guessing you have), you know that a number of us customer-members are concerned about the apparent "fixing" of the AOY competition--first it's a public poll, then Big Scary Freak Legume pulls to within a percentage point or two of the lead, and then suddenly the poll disappears. Your explanation? "Sorry. We made a mistake. We never meant for the members to vote for AOY." And yet the poll and the article went up on the front page, and we were urged to vote, just as in previous years, and a number of us did vote. Now, because you didn't like the potential results, you've thrown out the voting and will, at some unspecified point, declare a winner--presumably one in keeping with R'osity's heavily postworked, product-driven corporate image. I'm just one customer-member, but this decision seems patently unfair at best (never mind the possible legal ramifications), and the official explanation is, frankly, insulting to my intelligence. It's time for you to step up to the plate and tell the truth about why the voting was halted so abruptly. It's time to offer a solution that is fair for all involved--the contestants and the voting members. And it's time to offer a sincere, prominently placed apology to Legume and ToxicAngel in particular and the customer-members in general for the ham-handed mismanagement that led to this fiasco. When I buy from the marketplace here, I'm helping to support the site--and I've always tried to embrace the probable fiction that it really is about the art, and that all who abide by the TOS are welcome here. What's most troubling about this incident is the appearance that R'osity now openly endorses a specific brand of art, and art that doesn't fit the official guidelines, that doesn't represent the site and its marketplace in a "positive" light, isn't welcome, isn't worthy of honor or recognition, should not and cannot be showcased before the world. I would hate to think that any member would be marginalized and discriminated against by mannagement because management feels that his/her work is just too difficult for public consumption. Art isn't always neat or easy or pretty or nice--as President, you have to make a decision about what kinds of art are welcome here and what kinds aren't. If you supoort the proposition that all are welcome (within the TOS), then Legume deserves full consideration for AOY, whether you personally like his work or not. As long as this matter remains unresolved, I will be a member only, not a customer. I will not support Renderosity through its marketplace. I will, in fact, take my business to your competitors. And until you address this matter, I will continue to post messages like this one in the forums--within the TOS, of course. Respectfully yours, Mosca

Just an observation. I have my opinions on this whole fiasco but I'll keep them to myself,but I did want to mention something. Now that there has been implications of legal actions being taken,it's likely that there wont be a public statement regarding this until they have contacted their lawyers,because now,anything they say,could be used against them. I know if it was at our site(from an Admin point of view),and there was legal threats,I'd be reluctant to make a statement too.. It's the weekend so I'd assume there will be no reply for at least a couple of days. Like I said,this is just a personal observation and it's intent is only to speculate why there may not be a reply yet. Tom

You may be right; it's also the weekend before Xmas and it's understandable that folks might have other, better stuff to attend to. Which is fine--just wanted to get this out there.

Oh and you forgot to congratulate toxic angle for (his/her/their/it's) AOY win :)

I hope you realize that if you do take legal action. The burden of proof is yours. If you accuse them of something with no proof in court. They can sue you for unlawful prosecution. Think with your heads. Not with your hearts.

"If you accuse them of something with no proof in court. They can sue you for unlawful prosecution." Jesus, Scott. This is just silly. The decision to investigate/prosecute/whatever or not would be up to the Tennessee A.G.'s office and the U.S. Justice Department; that's who R'osity would have to sue, assuming they had a leg to stand on. What are you trying to do, intimidate people? Shut them up?

Yes........... Now look into my eyes. You're getting sleepy.................

Whatever, Scott. It seems pretty clear that you're shilling for the admins, who are in hiding until they've had a chance to confer with Dewey, Cheatham and Howe. Am I wrong? I mean, if that's not it, what's your motivation for posting such obviously erroneous misinformation?

First of all, will someone please put up what was actually in the article that went with the poll? Because I've yet to hear any mention of prizes or how it was going to be run, just that there was a poll and they asked people to vote for who they thought should win...Was there any time limit for this poll? Did it say the poll would end at a certain time?

Thinking it did and knowing it did are two different things...

And I agree with the fact that they wouldn't say anything at this point until they consulted legal council and even then, maybe not anything. You aren't owed an explanation from a legal point of view beyond what Tim said, and they certainly won't give one if it means that it will be used against them...

ShadowWind

You've got a point there. What they should do and what they end up doing probably won't be the same thing.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/index.ez?viewLink=391

True, true. As far as I know, the poll did have a prize attached to it (they have in all years up to now, and this year probably wasn't any different.) I myself have cautioned people in other forums not to rush off and file legal complaints until/unless they are willing to sign an affadavit and provide evidence (apparently, Legume et al may have done just that... I do not know.) I do however want to state exactly, with as neutral a POV as possible, what I'm seeing here: First off is credibility troubles - if you have a public vote, then jerk the voting process with some strange explanation and a definate change of procedure from previous contests, then your credibility is going to be called into question... this is natural. Second off, this isn't the first time a contest for prizes on Renderosity has ended under suspicious circumstances. I can count two other contests that have ended under suspicion. The first of those two (which a member, "x2000" actually got banned for mentioning today) involved an Emoticon contest for the OT forum. While there is no need to go into the grisly details, a moderator entered and won a contest she ran. To her (legal) credit, she refused the prize, but the incident nor the fact was ever made public... until a disgruntled moderator posted a screenshot copy of the whole story. x2000 mentioned the contest and its results this morning, and got henceforth got banned because of it, which only adds to the suspicions surrounding it. That screenshot alone is evidence enough to initiate a legal investigation, and there are a lot of folks now who possess this image. However, since the parties involved did not actually claim the prize, the penalties would be minor... a fine at the most. Second off, there was a contest in the 2d forum, in which the 2nd place winner was refused a prize she was originally told she could choose from as 2nd place winner, mostly becuase she had a Macintosh and couldn't use the cheaper Windows-based software prizes. There was a great big stink raised, and eventually, the folks who ran the contest ave her the prize she originally chose. This is not enough to prosecute, but it does compound the credibility problem. Now, we have this current AOY problem. I strongly assume there were prizes attached, as there were prizes attached in previous years. However, since I cannot confirm it, I honestly cannot tell for sure, though anyone with a screenshot could tell you. If complaints do get filed, it will be up to the Att'y general, or the US Postal Service, to determine the course of action. If there is evidence present, and the AOY was indeed a contest for prizes, there will likely be a prosecution involved. However, I cannot speak for either office, so I cannot say for sure. OTOH, as a business, if I were R'osity I certainly wouldn't want even the slightest hint of those risks gathering at my door. Also, there is a factor that hasn't been considered: If Renderosity's credibility is called into question, then those folks supplying the prizes, like Curious Labs, DAZ, Eovia, E-On Software, etc etc... those businesses will likely back away from supplying freebie prizes in the future. CL and R'osity are rather symbiotic, so I suspect that CL would be the last to back away, but there is a point where even they could concievably call it too risky to their reputation. "You aren't owed an explanation from a legal point of view beyond what Tim said, and they certainly won't give one if it means that it will be used against them..." Indeed - but if they're already running for legal cover, then perhaps they should also be considering what to do about the result, before word of it spreads too far and damages their reputation. This post isn't, as many of the site's defenders have assumed, a "slam" on Renderosity. It is merely a statement of one person's observations. However, these observations are offered as a wake-up call of sorts, to help Renderosity appreciate the mess they are hurtling headlong into, in the hopes that they will stop, sit back, and reconsider their course of action, both now and in the future. /P

There was also the controversy surrounding last years AOY, there was the controversy with the tie for the logo contest,... shrug Really- in all seriousness- Rosity needs to Just STOP having contests.

Cheryle and I may have other differences in this whole mess, I agree with that. Rosity should get rid of contests. They only lead to trouble (and which is why I don't generally participate in them).

The link you gave me Cheryle, though only says that there will be prizes for an AoY. It does not explain how, why or where such an event would be decided. I assume the screen that was taken down could give more insight into this, but no one has wanted to post it. Maybe because it would mean getting banned, not sure. So far though I can't assume, just because previous years had so and so, that this is the case this year without some sort of verification that such a claim was made.

Why is it that no one who voted can answer these simple questions? After all, if there is some legal action, these are important tidbits that show proof of such fraud. What were the prizes? What was the date that the poll ended? Stuff like that. Otherwise, everyone is just barking at a ghost in the tree...

Shadow- i am still going thru my cache looking for it- i know i was there on the 18th looking at it, but my cache is so full- i scroll half way down and explorer crashes. I am not sure the prises were even announced- you know my schedule is sporatic. I could have missed it. If i can get explorer to work- i can dig something up for you.

Like I said - the legal issue isn't in my purview, and I've made no accusations in that direction. OTOH, there is a great big credibility issue on Renderosity's part that is being studiously ignored. Would you consider it to be fruitless to call Renderosity's attention to it? /P

that should read: "I've made no accusation WRT the AOY in that purview..." sicne there is eviddence of the other two contests as listed earlier. My bad.

"OTOH, there is a great big credibility issue on Renderosity's part that is being studiously ignored. Would you consider it to be fruitless to call Renderosity's attention to it?" Well, so far the answer would have to be yes.

'The Artist of the Year contest is for members to vote for their favorite artist unless that artist may take our prize and hit us over the head with it (Legume).' Lolololol.......

Just out of curiosity....How long was this poll to vote up before it was pulled and announced as a mistake?

3 days -

To all members, I have been out of town since friday evening, so that is why I am responding late. The AOY was all my fault. Our process for the AOY is for admins and mods to vote on the AOMs of the year. This is how we did it last year and was suppose to do it this year. I told one of our new admin incorrectly and did not realize it until friday - 2 days after the voting had started. This is no other admins fault except for mine. I will make no excuses other than to give an apology.

Last year it was open to member vote. Trevor was winning, then there was some sort of discrepancy about the voting. The votes were redistributed. But it was voted for on the members.

Yes, that is correct. Once we found the decrepancy, we changed the process to mods and admins voting for the AOY to decrease any tampering of the process. I messed it up. tammy

Tammy, got some questions for ya. If the contest of AOY isn't to have any Community interaction, why bother have it or make such a big deal out of it? How is it considered condusive to run a "closed contest" where admins and mods, the very people who run the site, to choose a prestigious title or role for an artist out of thousands? How can it even be considered "Fair" when the votes from the establishment who run this site can be, or are, influenced or swayed by an artist's interaction within the site. Considering that this site a hosted for a Community of Artists, why aren't the artists and membership allowed to choose the person who should be awarded the title? Who better to judge a person deemable to receive the award than one's peers? Why not only use the admins or mods to keep the contest "FAIR" and in reserve only when there is a tie breaker that needs be made. One would almost think that the PTB doesn't feel that the Community that this site serves is worthy of choosing the person they'd like to see esteemed, or considers our (the Community's) voice worthy of deciding who should receive the award. You have a system, where artists can upload their artwork to the galleries. To share with other artists and get feedback for that artwork. In the process, other artists vote on that artwork, awarding each artist with valued opinions and, through that rating system, artists are esteemed by the tally of ratings and placed into the HOT 20. Once there, the Community chooses who of that HOT 20 is to be Artist of the Month, right up to the end of the year... but when it comes to Artist of the Year, the time when ALL of the artists are to vote on the top artist of the year, you remove our voice, our ability to decide... Tell me, who better to decide who should receive an esteemed title... the Community of Artists or the people who run the site? You say you changed the process to mods and admins voiting for the AOY to decrease tampering... (yeah like that decreases the chance of that). Then why have the contest? If the people's voice isn't important enough to find effective ways in which they can present that voice (either through additional programming or additional ways), why even have the contest? You devalue the roll and title of Artist of the Year. If it was me, I'd tell you to keep your damn crown. If I am not judged by my peers, then it isn't worth it. Jack

We have yet to come up with a perfect system for AOM and AOY. The members vote for AOM and therefore do have the overall input in who makes it to the AOY. We have tried different methods over the last 2 years and this current one seems to be the most fair that we have found. We are always interested in how we could make it a better, fair system. If you have input on the process, I would be interested in sharing it with the team. thanks tammy

"Your suggestions have been taken on board, Mr. Stibbons, and will be thrown over the side as soon as we leave port." -Terry Pratchett

In all honesty, perhaps the vote should've been left alone this go 'round. Mistake or no mistake, there is a credibility issue here. Current crisis aside, if you're going to vote on it internally, then perhaps members at random could be chosen? I don't see how it could be more fair than this: Each member gets only one vote (and to cross-check, each IP address gets only one vote), but no member with less than 30 days of membership will be allowed to vote. This prevents instant clone accounts to vote with, and existing clones from one IP. There are also lists of known open proxies (they ain't hard to find) whose IP address blocks you can incorporate entirely into a "no-vote" list as well. It can even be done in CIDR notation to save you a few lines of typing. In either case, it will take some work to do, but if you are interested in making for a fair system, that would be one way to do it. However, since you'd already opened the doors to public voting, then perhaps you should let the vote run its course. /P

And risk having Legume win? Please. sigh

It's a risk they'll have to take. I honestly don't understand why someone up in PTB-land has their panties in a wad over Legume myself... he may not be a top-flight artist technically (shit, neither am I for that matter), but at least he makes you think, which is a lot more than I can say about 98% of the other artwork around here (including my own.) Next time, with the system I described, it won't matter how many folks come out of Usenet to vote... if the accounts are less than 30 days old, it'll require a lot more timing, and by then, if someone's been a member for more than a month, then they're members who deserve the same voting rights that the rest of us have. But, in the meanwhile - credibility is credibility. /P

/P's suggestions about trying to "lock down" the voting are pudent. So I will not reiterate them. It appears that the voting goes: Galleries -> Hot20 -> AOM -> AOY; with the H20 and AOM decided by the members, correct? If this is the case, why not have AOY be decided by a cumulative annual total of the AOM votes with the PTB stepping in only when there is a tie? All this would take is a database backend or other accounting-type setup to add up the individual AOM votes for an entire year and, based upon the number of votes for any given artist, the one who has had the most AOM votes in the year wins AOY. It seems to me that this would be a fair methodology of determining an AOY recipient by the members without the potential for abuse nor allowing the bias of the site/PTB to affect the outcome; unless the rare chance that two artists receive the exact same amount of AOM votes in any given year.

Attached Link: Proposed Changes to AOY voting

"If this is the case, why not have AOY be decided by a cumulative annual total of the AOM votes with the PTB stepping in only when there is a tie?"

The problem with this is the larger galleries (poser, etc) will likely have more votes. If someone isn't familiar with Rhino or modeling programs or Terregen for example, they are less likely to vote while Poser has the largest audience and will have considerably more votes.

The AOM could still be by forum, each month with a diff forum

Thank you for replying Tammy, I posted my thoughts on how it can be done in the new thread from Cyberstretch (link provided previously). Thanks for your attention. Jack

Same problem. More in the poser forum than anywhere else.

< rant >
I think it's sad that the members here simply can't be trusted to NOT create clones to vote. AOY should be voted on just like AOM. People should have the morals to stick by their posts and votes with their one and only screen name and not create clones to vote, argue or cause problems. Just like admins need to admit to mistakes and stop banning everyone who brings them up. In this, everyone needs to be told to just grow up.

< /rant >

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=1016109

i had a thought about this thing- went to go look up the pertinant thread- and just noticed your posts ;P made me laugh and uh i forgot what i was thinking about. DAMN YOU! ;D LOL Merry Christmas

I posted an agreement with Mosca and my thoughts on how the voting was either rigged or disregarded and hence, I stopped voting. I believe someone deleted that. I will state it a bit clearer... I will not vote on anything here at any time because the vote does not count for any purpose. What I will do in the future is reccomend that anyone that wishes to express a dissenting opinion with renderosity, do it with their money as Mosca suggested... just vote with the no sale sign folks.

So let me get this straight: Admins nominate for AOM. Members vote for AOM. At the end of the year, one of the 12 AOMs is selected by the admins as AOY. Right? Which means there's no avenue to AOY that doesn't go through the admin staff--only a R'osity-approved candidate can win this so-called honor. And the rules have been changed, both for AOM and AOY selection, to prevent the Legume phenomenon from ever, ever happening again--I don't hear anyone from the admin staff addressing/arguing that. So, apology or not, Legume (and anyone else the admins don't like) can be excluded from winning any prize or receiving any honor the site offers? Then the competitions are unfair, incestuous and meaninglesss--window-dressing only. I can't support a site that operates that way. Fair is fair, and this ain't it.

I agree... it's like saying, Germans can't vote, or Southern Baptists, or left-handed people... Where does it stop??

If some are complacent and apathetic, then who knows? People complain because they care. Friends point out problems and try to help. Enemies sit back and watch another one bite the dust.