Attached Link: same ol' link as last time i posted

I don't want to offend anyone, and what I am about to say certainly does *not* apply to many of the artists represented here on renderosity, but I'm wondering ... As cool as Poser is, it seems to me that most of the Poser-assisted artwork I've seen around the web is not really what I'd call 'professional grade.' Of course I realize such judgments are all very subjective, and there is great room for disagreement about what looks professional and what doesn't, but the figures often tend to look plastic to me, and stiff, and so forth. Frankly, an awlfully lot of this artwork would benefit enormously if the artists had the patience to do some significant postwork in PhotoShop or some similar program, and even some of the best of it could benefit by just a little more postwork. One of the things I am wondering, then, is how many actually use Poser professionally (i.e., doing illustration for which you are paid) and frequently? And do you generally find that significant postwork is needed to get truly professional grade results? I am thinking I will probably use Poser in my work, but I am also beginning to think it may serve me better to think of a rendering as a very high quality 'layout' rather than as a final product, i.e., I am thinking that to get truly professional results I am probably going to, typically, still have to put in a few to several hours of postwork. Am I right? Are my standards too high (doubtful), or is my understanding of what is truly possible with Poser (given adequate work and study) simply too low? I'm very much a newbie with Poser, so please keep that in mind. And, again, there is some very fine work posted here at renderosity, so please don't think my aim is to bash any of the artists represented here. Thanks in advance for the feedback.

Poser is aimed mostly at the hobbyist market, so you won't see a high percentage of professional level renders. People can afford to use Poser to play around. Compare that to Maya - most people can't afford $2000 or $6000 for play, so you'll see a lot more professional level work as most of those who can afford Maya are bloody well going to use it professionally. There are at least a few here who can get professional results with little to no postwork in Poser. I know of several people here who use Poser professionally, though I couldn't tell you if they used postwork or not. The important thing is to get the results you need, and to hell with the postwork/no postwork debate. In the end, it's the results that matter. Cheers!

well if you're seeing "unprofessional" quality works,remember that most of it is not done by professionals! poser is a tool,and like any tool it's the person using it more than the tool itself that will determine the outcome...poser has limitations to be sure,but i've also seen some stunning work come out of it...i would venture to say that "most" of the people using poser are not really reaching it's limitations in all areas...most poser users wouldn't produce any better works with a highend program either...there are no magic "make it look awesome" buttons in ANY graphics proram...the more exensive programs actually require more skill than poser does to get similar results!

The renderer in P4 is not as good as the one in P5, which is not as good as ones in other high end packages. But "pro" work can mean a lot of things. Who is your market, and what style are they looking for? Are you trying to save money/time from hiring a photographer or drawing an illustration by hand? Many people use high end renderers, but still pose the models using Poser. You'll see a lot of people here using 3DS, Maya, or Lightwave, but also using poser to control scenes. Depending on what you want to do, Poser may not be enough to do it all.

There's a LOT of professional level poser art. Having said this, I haven't seen many used professionally in advertising. Most of the ones I've actually seen in ad's are pretty lame compared to the stuff here. A lot of us use Poser to get the figures build and texturized, but use Vue or Bryce for the final renders, and then do a ton of postwork in Paintshop or Photoshop to finish it out. Poser is a great tool, especially in conjunction with other tools. Of course, the definition of "professional" is if you get paid for it. My art is by no means great and it doesn't compare to most of the good stuff here, but my clients like it enough to give me money or beer. I admit to getting a lot more beer for my work thank money (grin).

hehe * Burp * well i use it only as one of many tools. Like a saw or a drill. I intermix 2d and 3d and make money off of it in one way or another outside of work like pdxjims . I am also a graphic artist and use it in that capasity at work for advertisements but they are very simple things . Nothing worth braging about. But i give them what they want and save the better stuff for after work.

It depends whether or not a profesional is doing it I suppose. So I guess if it is bautiful then the person is a professional. Or if the person is a professional then the image is beautiful 'course mabey a professional image may not be beautiful and beautiful people might not professional. But what about unprofessional beautufl people making professional work? That is a tough one. I personally prefer beautifully professional images from non-professional artist...whether or not they are beautiful. My favorite grade was the 7th. Alot of fun that was for sure and my teacher was really beautiful..in a professional way of course. Anton

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=268159&Start=19&Artist=Archangel%5FGabriel&ByArtist=

Poser, 3DS MAX, Lightwave, Maya, Softimage, Rhino, they all depend on the user.

Yes, Poser is used by the 'masses' since it is affordable, the learning curve is pretty shallow and generally it's user friendly. By its very nature it can churn out human figures fast. With a wide spectrum of people using it, you're gonna get a wide swath of quality.

I use it professionally, the attached image is a Poser figure, Post painted in photoshop, like everything I do. It's now owned by Lucasfilm LTD. Hence the disclaimer underneath the image.

It's all in the hands of the user. Generally I suck, most of what I do is fluff at best, but occationally as in JEDI, I get something right.

There are very cool Poser artists out there, Will Kramer, Cris Palimino, David Ho and Martin Murphy to name a few. It's just a matter of doing.

The other main reason they look plasic & unprofessional is they use stock non-textured Poser figures. Not the ones, (esp. the Photo Realistic ones) from ppl like Blackheated, Kiera, Magnet, Dalinise & the like. Yes, I believe postwork does help & I do postwork, sometimes hours upon hours ... I think I'm guilty of maybe not doing enough :o( My 5 cents, Thomas

Okay. So I think the gist is that a lot of folks using Poser are just playing around, but someone with some brains and talent, and time and stamina, can get serious results, without too much postwork, if he or she is dedicated enough. Is that the consensus?

yep... is My assessment, I try hard to get quality renders.... & scrap a hell of alot more than I post... LMAO :o) Thomas

I've also seen Poser figures used a lot in infographics for magazines like Time and Men's Health, and in an illustration in a recent Reader's Digest. That's certainly professional work, though with different artistic goals. When Poser first came out, it was primarily intended as a layout or reference tool. Now it's capable of much, much more, but you still need talent and effort to make Good Art.

Also, take a look at the most recent Nancy Drew games from Her Interactive. They use a lot of poser models in their games, and very nicely done, too.

"One of the things I am wondering, then, is how many actually use Poser professionally (i.e., doing illustration for which you are paid) and frequently? " Semi-Pro. I do use it as a tool in illustration work I'm paid for, but I fall out of your criteria on the "and frequently" part. I haven't been a full time working professional graphics artist since 1992-93 or so. Since then, I do the occassional job for clients, when it's something I'm interested in. hence the "semi-pro". Techically, if you get paid, you're a professional. However, poser is a tool that I use, but it's a, not the only tool. The full suite of tools I use for illustration and ad design run the gamut from Studio VIZ, Bryce, TurboCAD Professional, Rhino, Illustrator [for layout design and shape design], Painter 5 and Photoshop for text, layering and effects, and for image compositing. There isn't any single tool in that collection that's "most important", except maybe Photoshop... they're ALL important because each of those does something very well that's critical to the end result: the final image. And every single phase from layout to set design to typography is part of the whole. None of it stands alone or can feasibly be done in a single app [by me anyway].

It also depends on your definition of "professional". For example, I've seen free props and add-ons for Poser that are absolutely superb, while there's some for sale that are complete crap. However, the ones for sale are technically "professional", since the artist is getting paid for them. Now I primarily use Poser for playing around, since I'm no professional artist- I work in the software industry; however, I know a bit about that industry, and in that alone I can see several applications for Poser. It exports good FMVs, and if you've got a machine that's powerful enough to use the extras in Poser 5, you can easily use it to make high-quality cut scenes for video games. (I've seen video game cut-scenes that look much worse than some of the animations I made just playing around.) Also, character modelling is done in two steps- figure creation, then animation. While Poser can't do the modelling, it can set up the figure, and I know its easier to animate figures in Poser than in some modelling programs like 3DSMax. Once you've animated it, you can export every frame as an object file, and you've got a neat new character model for Quake or Unreal.

Yeah. What EsnRedshirt hit on is the intrinsic difference between "professional", and "professionalism". One's a function of doing a job for income, the other's an attitude and a quality of... craftsmanship, for lack of a better word. You can qualify as a professional by virtue of getting paid for work, and yet lack professionalism in your presentation and output.

I agree 100% with you & EsnRedshirt Ironbear, I'd rather sell something in the MP I'm comfortable with, & fairly good at, that release something 1/2 ass. Altho, not everyone sees things that way. Thomas

If you dont expect too much from any version of poser then you wont be disappointed its a good tool to help you lay out a scene but even the best figures (And programs) need post work if you want true quality in an image. 3D is great but its no substitute for live models and a studio. It can come close though... I guess it depends on what you want

If you know how to work with Poser's limitations, you can get some great stylistic pieces out of this thing. But it's like everything else: you have to dedicate time and patience to learning it properly before you can call yourself a "professional". Just because you get paid for something does not, trust me, make you a pro.

WAIT! Don't anyone apologize for any use of Poser nor give 'excuses'. Many seem to be on the defensive here. don't be. Troll questions like this should be ignored. ::grumble:: Or not taken seriously anyway. ::waving to Anton:: That said, I will say this. I am MORE tired of the Photoshop over-worked airbrush-style postwork than I am of NVIATWAS pictures. Harumph Where'd that pesky mouse go now.

who cares if it looks good to anyone else? Nothing I've done so far could ever be called professional & I make no apologies for it either. I'm not a professional I just want to make the pictures I see in my head & have fun doing it.

With respect to the "professional quality" category... have you ever seen medical advertising? Anyone here could do better (asleep) than the printed advertisements used by the pharmaceutical industry...(btw these are done by "professionals" who get paid for them...and they're so bad that you'll laugh your ass off looking at them). One NVIATWAS would set the industry afire!

No...but then neither are "most" Max, Maya, LW...the difference is poser users are a very sociable lot that like to show our images to each other without the worry of "oooh shall i i'm just a begginer" because we all where once and hopefully we won't forget it....Steve

I use Poser to do erotic art' for money, so I guess that makes me aprofessional' user. I do 3-4 pics a week under the name of Lilith, for a porn site in Europe. I guess I do good enough for them one of their preview pages features my work. I looked at the image on your linked page and Poser is definitly capable of that kind of quality without any post work. The quality of Poser renders depends on the quality of the models and textures you use, and in my opinion the plastic look of the figures is cured by lighting more than anything. The most post work I do is to clean up the joints on the models, sometimes I spend an hour doing post work on one, but mostly I just adjust the brightness,contrast,saturation,soften backgrounds.and maybe add a little noise. Check out `Hanging Around' in my gallery that is an unfinished version of one I got paid for.

Poser 5's got a "skin node" for diffuse lighting in the materials room that does absolute wonders for curing the "plastic" look.

Spit -- I don't think it was a troll question... the original post was too polite, and rdf at least seemed like he/she was taking the time to try and word it in a non-inflammatory way. I read it as a serious question, not the "You Poser people are Poseur Artists" type of thing we have seen before... But that's just the way I read it :-)

Well, I postwork most of what I do to death (except Product Showcase stuff and things promoting my stuff). I'm not ashamed of using all my tools, Spit, and I'm not going to be. Sometimes I even print things out and postwork them on paper or illustration board. Does that count as overworked?

Didn't seem like a troll to me either. Just a serious question from a working artist. my answer : Poser is a tool. You get out what you're willing to put in. Postwork, even just to tighten the contrast, is essential. There are several artists who use Poser models (rendered in other packages, and heavily postworked) for book covers, posters and other 'high end' applications. Thing is, at that point you can't tell they came from poser.

Does this count as professional quality? I suppose if you use the 'if you get paid to do art, your a professional, so all your art is professional art' argument, I fit the bill. I did several pieces in the early 90s for Shadowrun from FASA games. So on that face of things, this is professional. This is Poser.

This is poser, too. Rather than postworking it in Photoshop, I postworked it on Watercolour paper with blue watercolours. The gun was a cylinder.

And this one is Poser, too, postworked in Photoshop.

And more proof. In closing, I think that most aren't but it's certainly possible. Art skills help.

This message goes before the other and originally said 'And here's some proof' but I forgot to hit the nudity button so I deleted it and am reposting it.

The one in post 32 I like, _Dodger, but then again, B&W illustration has always been a favorite of mine.

I like your postwork very much, Dodger. That's not what I was referring to.

IB, thanks. Spit: what'd you mean then? I'm confused.

No. I am not a Troll, nor was it a Troll question. As someone who has hardly used Poser, and never professionally, I am wondering about various things and was simply posing a question, obviously not in the very best way, but it was certainly not intended to imply anyone using Poser is not a real artist. Nor did I have any particular definition of 'professional' in mind other than the subjective one that each one of us has. Art is by its nature in the eye of the beholder, and there are different kinds of artists, after all. Who am I to imply anyone who uses any particular tool is or is not an artist? I can say I like it, or I don't, or I think it looks professional, or I think it does not, but I cannot, and did not intend to, impugn anyone's qualifications as an artist. Frankly, as a newbie who only stumbled across renderosity a few weeks ago and who has not stayed up with what Poser is now capable of, I have been absolutely 'blown away' by the quality of some of the images done with recent versions of Poser, many of them posted here on Renderosity -- which is why I finally went out and upgraded form version 2 to 5. (Please note that I still consider myself a Poser newbie as I was disappointed in and never used version 2.) My question was a sincere one from someone who is now hoping to use Poser in my own work, but who has also noticed the tremendous variation in quality being achieved by various artists, and who is uncertain of how much is truly possible without serious postwork. For whoever said to leave the postwork, no-postwork debate behind and that it is simply the end result that matters ('Crescent,' I believe), I respect the sentiment, but I think the debate is more than academic. If it is possible to get professional results with Poser without much postwork, i.e., to spend many extra hours studying and experimenting with Poser, then it would follow that that would be a more productive application of one's time and energy than to spend several hours on postwork (that otherwise might have been avoided) with each and every image one creates. On the other hand, if it is unrealistic to expect consistent and desirable results without significant postwork, then there must be a point at which one will be considerably better off accepting Poser's limitations and simply planning on some less than minimal postwork each and every time. So if I offended anyone, it was not intended. I would not myself be considering Poser as seriously as I am if I did not consider it a worthwhile tool. I'm just 'feeling things out' so to speak, trying to get a sense from other more experienced Poser artists what is and is not possible with and without postwork (and how much), not because I think one methodology is superior to another in regard to the end result but because, as a Poser newbie trying to 'come up to speed,' I'd like to get a sense of how best to allocate my time.

No worries, RDF. I didn't consider it a troll question. Depending on what you mean to do, Poser can be the means to an end or the end in itself. Depending on what you need to do, you may be able to do it with Poser alone, you may need Postwork, or the render may simply be a working sketch. I recommend you spend the time to get to know the tool as thoroughly as you can. If you were going to do airbrush art, I'd recommend that you learn all the ways to use your airbrush, how to take it apart and put it together, frisking techniques, and so on. If you were going to be a tattoo artist, I'd recommend you learn all you could about your gun, how to take it apart, put it back together, clean it, tweak it, how and why it works, and of course shading techniques, the aging effects of inks, bleeding control techniques, and everything. You'll never hurt yourself by learning everything you can about the tools you use, and if you use them seriously, you'll excel. Even if you postwork the images.

I didn't either, that's why I tried to give it as serious and as reasponed a reply as I could. My response was from the perspective that I've never been a purist. Even when I did 2D illustration, I always did multimedia - blending tech pen, airbrush, paint marker and others together for the final image. I look at CG the same way: a blending of tools to get the final result, whatever it is. Important thing is to identify the target market your selling to, and then make sure that the blend of those tools works for what that client needs. Animation or gaming art will have different requirements than advertising illustration or book cover illustration. No one set of technique and blend of tools will do everything, so this isn't a "yes or no" question.