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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2025 Jan 12 9:36 pm)
Subject: Any demand??
Your car looks cool. I have a question, though, and don't get offended. You don't mention the word "DeLorean" in your store (or your readme file), but the car has a "DMC" logo on it. Do you need permission from the DeLorean Corp. to sell this model or is it "different enough" that you don't need permission? I'm not trying to accuse anyone of anything, but the answer would help any future car makers.
I dont understand some of it....my DMC logo is different, slightly...however, I use the Mercedez logo, and other folks who have cars use the respective logo, insignia, etc... I dont use the name because there is question as to wether it is copyrighted...although from what I've found at tess, it is only trademarked with reguard to automotive (and perfume), but no mention of digital products.
So, does that mean we can make ditigal versions of our favorite cars (or vehicles), remove the logos and sell them, without the need for premission? Or, since you made the model from scratch, does that make it yours to sell? We know it's wrong to sell an R2-D2 or Enterprise model, but it's okay to make a car? All of the above have very distintive shapes and there is no way an "average" person would be able to tell your "original" version from the "real" version. I don't know- all of these digital model copyright issues start to confuse me.
You can't copyright a single word, except as to use that word as an original concept in a literary work. Thus the Tolkein Estate has a copyright on the Ents and Hobbits, and TSR had to rename then Halflings and Treants for D&D. As for the trademark, no one has a trademark on digital models of cars for 'Delorean' or 'DMC', which means that lwanmtr actually owns the trademark on such, although unregistered as such. If lwanmtr wanted to be really picky, (s)he could insist that no one else may use the logo on their automobiles and be perfectly within his(er) rights. As to the model's look itself, it's not a patent violation because it doesn't run, and it's not copyrightable because it's not considered a creative work, but a mechanical one --the design may be covered as an Artistic Patent, but that's not relevant because, again, the model doesn't do what a car does, which means the apatent isn't violated. R2-D2 can be copyrighted as a character because it's part of an expressive work created by Lucas. On that point, note that I only give away free lightsabres but Clint (as HawkinZ Graphics) sells his Lazer Blade. R2-D2 is also trademarked, but a trademark, as the term's name implies, must apply to a specific trade. In other words, if LucasArts/Hasbro has no specific Trademark on the term 'R2-D2' as regards 3-D models, I could certainly make a DeLorean model and sell it as an 'R2-D2 Sports Coupe' but I couldn't us R2-D2, the robot's, likeness, because he's part of a copyrighted work. Did that make any sense? Recap: a Trademark (TM, (R)) protects the use of a name associated with a particular trade, that is, a particular type of product. a Service Mark (SM, (R)) protects the use of a name associated with a particular service, and is legally identical to a trademark. a Registered Trademark simply means that the government has done a search to make sure no one else is using it already, you've paid your $350, and you then legally get to put the (R) on it rather than a TM or SM. The US Patent and Trademark ofice also recognises registered trademarks from other countries, though with less importance usually. It ignores unregistered trademarks from other countries. Examples include Disney (movies and loads of other things), Time Warner (books, television, and loads of other stuff), Dungeons & Dragons (role-playing games, books, movies, toys), and Star Wars (movies, toys, bedclothes, clothing, and about everything else under the twin suns of Tattooine or anywhere else), DeLorean (motorcars, and fragrances apparntly) a Patent prevents someone from making and selling the same device or process that you have patented. It doesn't prevent someone from using it themselves, merely from selling it. It also has to be a distinctively original idea. That's why Amazon's patent on 'one-click purchasing' was a joke (and overturned). A device means anything you can use, eat, whatever, but not something you read or go to the theatre to see. You can patent a TV set, and you can copyright a sitcom, but you can't copyright a TV set. Examples include the Suck-n-Cut (Ronco), Everlasting Gobstopper4 (wonka confections), toy Lightsabers [sic] (Hasbro), and the Sears Tower (dunno, but it's not Sears). Artistic patents protect the design and appearance of a functional device from being co-opted by other functional devices of the same sort. Examples include Toblerone (Swiss candy bar with a distinctive shape -- no other candy bar can be this shape), DeLorean motorcars (the shape, regardless of what's under the hood -- no other automobile can look just like a DeLorean), and iMacs (successfully defended, which is why the eMachines eOne PC, which looks a lot like an iMac isn't available in the US). Copyright protects an original literary or artistic work from being copied, distributed, or being derived from by someone without those rights. This covers movies, TV shows, songs and books, but not cars, tanks, or retirement homes. Copyright says you can't make a movie with a droid named R2-D2 as a main character -- and even that's fuzzy, because you could, in theory, have a robot in a Star Trek episode named R2-D2, if that robot was made on Earth and named after the famous droid from the Star Wars saga, and it could even look just like him... because at that point it's not derived from Star Wars, but from pop culture. However, you couldn't get away with it in something like Farscape, which is set in a part of the galaxy far, far away, and could not conceivably derive things from Earth culture. For a closer-to-home example for me, the character 'Dodger' in the Shadowrun novels (and the earlier playtest sessions in Chicago) is derived from Oliver Twist, as is his conpaniion 'Twist'. This is expressly referred to in the books, I hear, and it was definitely said in the playtest sessions. Oliver Twist is still copyrighted, but the Dicken's estate couldn't to a thing about it if they wanted to, because even where the characters and plotline resemble the story in Oliver Twist, the story is not a derivative work. Derivative work is the fuzziest thing in here, but essentially means that the work could be used as a represenation or extension of the original work. In other words, a 'spin-off'. In the Shadowrun example above, the story could have taken place without Dickens ever having existed. The main characters would have had different names, but would have done much the same things. Oh, yeah, and just a note, because I see this goof all over the place -- it's 'Copyright' not 'Copywrite'. As in, the right to copy, which is what distributors do, not to write copy, which is what advertisers do. As a further note, it's not wrong to sell an R2-D2 or Enterprise model, but it's a civil liability to sell an R2-D2 model that is a model of the droid R2-D2 from Star Wars. It's pefectly legal and not a civil liability to sell a functional model of the Mars Land Rover, because it's a patented device, not a copyrighted character. And you could even call it R2-D2 if you wanted, provided Hasbro or LucasArts has no trademark on 3-D models named R2-D2.
Attached Link: Copyright, Trademark, and Patent from the horse's mouth
'*there is no way an "average" person would be able to tell your "original" version from the "real" version*' I'm not meaning this as a smartass remark, though it may sound that way -- it's really what the legal IP laws say, in many mre legalese words -- but there is a definite way an average person would be able to tell the model from the real car.... You can get into a DeLorean automobile and drive away if you have the keys. You can't do that with a DeLorean poser model. The USPTM office *specifically states* in an example on the difference that you can make your own description of a patented device and sell it, even if the original blueprints or written descriptions are copyrighted.
Once again..It shure would be nice to get Clint's and the others who run this place opinions...but, that was said many times in the other thread...heh. On the other hand, the way I undertand things, I could use 'DMC' as an acronym (Disturbed Model Creations), since my site is called Disturbed Pixels. As for DeLorean itself, the only references I found on TESS for copyrighted or trademarks refers not only to Delorean Motor Company, but also to some perfume producer. Yup, would be nice to get some real feedback from r'osity folks :)
Thanks for the information! {You can get into a DeLorean automobile and drive away if you have the keys. You can't do that with a DeLorean poser model.} That's actually a good way of putting it and not a "smart" answer at all). It's the difference between a real object (which runs when you put the key in) and a digital model (which "runs" when double-click it). I'm still confused about the whole "likeness" thing- if I made a starship that looked just like the Enterprise, could I sell that? Even though I may name my ship the "Enterprzse", the average person can tell what it is. It's kind of like selling artwork of Spider-Man or Batman. These characters don't exist except as artwork and everyone knows that you (the artist) didn't create the character, but you did create the art. So, do you have to get permission from Marvel or DC to sell art based on their characters' likenesses?
That's where Copyright comes in. Copyright covers works of art, poetry, literature, and music. Comics are works of art and literature all in one and thus protected from anyone else selling (but not doing) art derived from them unless it's done within fair use. The only extended derivation allowed in fair use is Parody (amounts are limited in personal use, educatinal, and fair comment usages). So no, you couldn't sell a model of the Enterprise. You could sell a model of a Starship that looks similar to the Enterprise and get away with it, particularly if you claimed that it was NOT the Enterprise, but it couldn't be an exact copy. That's my ClintH can sell his Lazer Blades but I'd be in very shaky ground were I to sell my Obi Wan Kenobi lightsabre, even if I called it Ben Cennoby's Lazer Sword, because it's too identical to the one in the movie and thus a copyright violation. On the other hand, I could theoretically create a character that looked like a cross between Darth Maul and Pinhead with that lightsabre and call it Obi Wan Cenobyte -- because by crossing the two in an amusing way it falls under the heading of parody and becomes okay -- in other words, IP laws protect original works of art from being copied, but they do not protect them from being made fun of. Two examples on the Star Trek front. I 1990, I think it was, J Michael Straczynski pitched an idea for a Star Trek spinoff series to Paramount where the action all took place on an ambassadorial space station. Paramound rejected it, because Roddenberry said it was too dark. JMS brought it to Fox and renamed the races and changed soem of the back story and details of those races. Romulans got weird haircuts and fangs, lost the pointy ears. Cardassians became lizardlike. Vulcans got a bone on their heads, lost the ears, and the backstory was changed to make it them, rather then Klingons, that humans were fighting with. Betazoids became psychic humans. A pilot was made and the world saw Babylon 5 for the first time. Paramount saw it too, and raced to get Deep Space Nine out a year before B5, despite the fact that it was largely derived from JMS's creation. B5 came out a year after DS9 and lots of people thought it was a ripoff of DS9, until the truth of the thng came out and half the people found out that it was actually the other way around. Who ripped off who? What's a derivative work of what? Who can sue who? Nobody, so nobody did. B5 was derived from the Star Trek universe, but was changed enough it wasn't the Star Trek universe. DS9 was derived from B5, but was still in the Star Trek universe, and so wasn't at risk either. Another example. In 2000 a movie came out that was basically about what might happen if William Shatner and company were recruited by real-life Vulcans to defend against their Klingon enemy. The ship was really close in look/feel to the Enterprise. The movie was really big, too. It was called GalaxyQuest. But it was a parody -- jokes on Star Trek abounded throughout it -- and as a result, even if Paramount wanted to assult it legally, they couldn't. The reason the Protector wasn't exactly the Enterprise and the Nebulisers weren't exactly Phasers and so on was probably because the company didn't wan to deal witht he headache of proving the movie was pardoty in a court of law if pressed, and so they could have more fun with the design.
Hehe. I came up with that one on the fly, too. For a recap:
Lambourgini Countach IP protections: - Utility Patent: Yes, prevents people from making a car that works exactly like a Lamborgini Countach
- Design Patent: Yes, perevents people from making a car that looks exactly like a Lamborghini Countach
- Botanical Patent: No, it's not a plant
- Trademark: Yes, Prevents anyone from selling another kind of car as a Lambourgini Countach
- Addtional trademarks: Probably, for things like T-Shirts, Calendars, Posters, Toys - this only prevents people from calling it a Lamourgini brand poster, not a poster of a Lambourgini
- Copyright: Maybe sort of -- the blueprints for the Lambourgini Countach may be copyrighted, but that doesn't stop anyone from making their own blueprints from one or sculptures of one and so on.
USS Enterprise IP rotections: - Utility Patent: No, because it's not a real spaceship and it doesn't work
- Design Patent: Yes, some -- For toys and such, no one can make a toy that looks exactly like the USS Enterprise
- Botanical Patent: No, it's not a plant
- Trademark: Yes, Prevents anyone from selling another TV show using a spaceship called the USS Enterprise
- Additional trademarks: Of course, for things like toys, clothing, books, and so on
- Copyright: Definitely, the entire Star Trek saga is copyrighted by Paramount and you cannot do creative works based on Star Trek. But you can do ones similar, as long as they are not spinoffs.
Right. Renderosity doesn't allow you to use a trademark for something that looks like what's trademarked. Patent protections are not considered, as far as I know (the Product Guidelines restrict Trademark and Copyright, but say nothing about Patents). Theoretically if someone patented an algorithm you could not use that in a software product, but that's not Renderosity's rules, it's the law's. DAZ just follows the law as far as I know, which is really a better choice for marketing purposes. One of the things about all this stuff is that electronic stuff is kind of fuzzy between copyright and patent. Realistically, most software should fall under Design and Utility patents, but in practice it's usually Copyright laws that have been used in court cases so far. Not always, but usually. For instance a mesh is protected by copyright, and considered basically literary works. Realistically, a mesh should be covered by design patent. That would protect someone from making an identical rendering mesh whether the vertices matched or not. As it is, nothing prevents you from 'tracing' Michael using a different mesh because the file information is different, despite how it renders.
Wow- more great information. So, I can make a plant and call it the Enterprise and Paramount will leave me alone? Cool. The other question is how close is too close? Obviously, in the case of B5 and GalaxyQuest, the producers changed a LOT so they could avoid the issue. But, if you made "Obi-1 Lightsaber" (spelled differently) and the model had two buttons (instead of one) and with a dark blue (instead of light blue) color, would that be enough? And your example about the Michael mesh forgets one thing- if the Poser community even suspects that you used a Mike mesh for your model, then you'll be defending yourself until the cows come home. You'll be flamed and your product would be probably be suspended until everything was cleared up. In other words, if you're going to copy a model (or use a model as a template), don't use a DAZ model!
Just as a note, 'lightsaber' is the spelling LucasArts uses for a lightsabre. 'Lightsabre' is the spelling I use, only because I'm a huge proponent of the Queen's English. If you notice, when I quote anything about a lightsabre, I'll spell it the way it was spelled, which almost always means I'll add a [sic] after the American spelling. You can make a TV set and call it the Enterprise and it's okay. Patent laws don't protect the name at all. If you grow a plant that looks just like the Star Trek USS Enterprise, it's okay too. I think you cannot make a real spacecraft called the Enterprise, because I believe that NASA actually owns that trademark for spacecraft. Back in the late 70s they actually made a spacecraft called the Enterprise. It was the first space shuttle. Unfortunately, it never made it to launch because of design flaws, thus the Columbia became the first Space Shuttle, but the Enterprise was the first working draft. However, since NASA is a US government agency, I'm not sure how much claim they have on such things. Galaxy Quest didn't have to change as much as they did. They did it for two reasons: 1 - to avoid Paramount even trying anything, thus saving them the headache, and 2 - to have more fun with it and be more creative. On Renderosity, you can get away with This close. That's Clint's hisself's. In Free Stuff you can get away with a heap more, for two reasons: 1) derivative works are usually okay if they're not-for-profit. This is called 'fan art'. Generally if an author hasn't said fan art isn't okay, it's considered okay. Fan Art is not a legal term, but it's a commonly held societal convention and as such it does have some legal basis and will usually be considered by a judge. 2) If there's no profit made directly from something, you can't be sued for royalties, and thus most companies won't bother unless your work in some way disgraces their work. If LucasArts wanted they could send me a cease and desist notice and almost all of my Star Wars free stuff would come down (and I'd replace it quickly with deliberate not-quites). They won't, I'm pretty sure, because LucasArts has officially sanctioned the making of SW fanfics including farn art and movies and things to help the making of movies, as long as they don't charge a profit. Well, my SW props can help to make animated movies. As to the Michael thing, yes, it would cause an uproar. But I'd be completely within my legal rights and the Product Submission Guidelines, too. However, it's also important that I could not call it the Millenium Man or Michael because those are DAZ Trademarked terms for their figure (and it's an applicable Trademark, because it's the same kind of product). 'Mikey' on the other hand, well, that might be fair game B^)
Oh, and it would also be okay to create and sell Mike morphs for Dork, and even a 'Like Mike' CR2, morph set, and so on for Dork including an OBJaction target that slices him up to have buttocks and the Millenium-style chest slicing. I'm kinda wondering why no one has done that -- 'Like Mike' would be a damned amusing name for a Dork character and remap set.
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ok, I've been slaving torturous hours on a new version of my Delorean (see my store) and am just wondering if there is a real demand? I can't give any details yet (gonna keep it secret 'till i release it), but it will have much more than the current version, and have a higher poly count also.