_dodger - Perhaps a better question would be 'How many of you are using ZoneAlarm, and what's your excuse?' Huh? Is it unethical to go to Border's or Barnes and Noble, sit down in one of their arm chairs, and read a book or magazine with no intention to buy it? Is it ethical for someone to rip their old vinyl LPs to their hard drive? No MP3s here, either. jon

#4 - Teachers can get a discount on Rhino too (Hell, I did), and it doesn't matter to the academic reseller if the software is part of any curriculum or not (though the folks who made Rhino was cool enough to send along a very nice curriculum breakdown of their product, enough so that teaching it as a side class wouldn't be a half-bad proposition.) #6 - Rhino's academic licensing allows for commercial use of Rhino, though not all proggies allow this (3DS Max ferinstance does not.) Therefore, this is not an ethical question as much as it is a legal question... if you use an academic copy of 3DS Max for commercial use, you've violated the licensing agreement, pure and simple. Discreet can revoke your license the moment you sell something made with the academic copy of 3DS Max. This is because you have to agree to those terms before buying the software. Zone alarm? Whazzat? I use Linux w/ iptables, portsentry, and a whole host of GPL proggies as a firewall. If I own a legal copy of any form of music (vinyl, CD, whatever), I can rip whatever I wish onto my hard drive; as long as I don't distribute the results, the RIAA can kiss my dufflebag for all I care. /P

err, "agree to those terms before installing the software." My Bad. /P

Pengy, ripping music from vinyl and CDs for home use is perfectly legal. The Home Recording Act of (I forget the year) established this. For backup and personal use, I believe. ZA makes a free download as far as I know, but I use Black Ice which really has to do nothing because I sit behind NAT off my router. I have MP3's on my HD, but they were free downloads at various "loop" sites for Flash imbedding.

okay...been thinking a bit about this whole thread....i said that all of the above were "unethical". (yeah, and, i was taught by nuns during my real formative years.) i'm gonna jump one ahead on this thread, and, ask...."so, in your real life....which of you do anything unethical"? have any of you jumped the line in a store when it is crowded? have any of you cut someone off in traffic, and, then, given them the finger? have any of you paid only the REGULATED charges on your phone bill, and let the unregulated, which you can't be "shut off" for, just ride and ride into credit hell? have any of you knowingly ever bounced a check? have any of you taken and eaten candy from the bulk bin while shopping at a store? have any of you EVER used cable from a neighbor's connection...splitting the bill, perhaps. this unethical list could go on and on...steal an idea from an acquaintance, and, market it as your own? well, have ya???

Honestly, I am a student and have purchased numerous student packages of software. None of them state in the EULA that you must stop using them after you graduate, nor do they limit your use of said product. Most of them are upgradable in the future and all of them come with full company support. The only difference between the full version and my academic versions on 95% of what I've purchaced is pricing. Most of the companies put out student and academic versions of software at a discounted price for 2 reasons. #1 - they know us students are poor. Piss broke honestly, but they also know we use their software on a daily basis in classes and can accomplish a lot more if we have the software on our machines. So they give us a break. Some small some large..but a break none the less #2 - Once we're in the field of choice (for me Graphic Design) we may be able to pick what software the place we work for buys. IF they give us deals on the software and we use it enough we get used to it. If we're suggesting software to companies we suggest what we're comfortable with and that company buys multi-user licences profiting said software company a great deal. Makes perfect business sense doesn't it? (thought so) So am I going to continue using my student software till I have a job and can afford to upgrade...HELL YES I am. Is it unethical? Hell no, I paid for it to begin with and all good things must be upgraded eventually. And I plan to do it whenever I get a good job to pay good money for good programs. As per, not a student and getting student discounts - Now that all depends. My school was/is in the middle of a huge deal with a major design software company and 2 of my friends graduated in December (but won't ahve the actual ceremony until May) if the deal goes through before May...They already have deals worked out to be able to pick up the software at the discounted price. And I believe that's ethical because they ended up being in the right place at the wrong time and the deal was already in the works while they were still active in classes. As for myself, I graduate in May so if the deal comes through before then, I'm lucky. LOL But I don't think it's right for Joe Blow who's been out of college for 20+ years to get a student discount when he can't even remember what a classroom looked like. Just my 2 cents though

okay...another thought...this one more on the subject of actual warez... john is 16 years old. all his life he has been driven by the need to create. he works 18 hours a week at burger king, and goes to highschool. his parents are lower middle class. he puts together a computer from leftovers from kids he is friends with in school. they turn him on to their high end software packages, and, johnny sets down to play. johnny has an awesome talent in all aspects of the cgi field. he takes to modelling like a duck to water, and lets all who view his models know what program he used to create them. he's an ace at uvmapping, and texturing...once again...he declares the tools of his trade...although, they are purloined. folks all over love what johnny has created. they want to make it, too. soooo, they buy the same software johnny uses. and, they try and try. then, they buy even more of the software that johnny has been using. and, they tell all their friends how cool that software is. in the meantime...johnny's mom smells pot in his room. she is up to her last straw with him smoking "the devil weed" in his room. she calls the cops. johnny gets raided for "what's that funny smell?". a rookie cop spots his computer, and, hoping for a kiddie porn bust, so early in his career...orders it confiscated. in custody, the computer yields the many secrets of johnny's warez activity. he goes to jail. his friends, more well to do get chastised, and, have a mark on their "permanent records", that will be deleted when they turn 18. is this ethical?

I asked the vinyl to hard drive question in close proximity to my MP3 claim as sort of a rhetorical couplet. It seems to me that some folks assume certain activity automatically bad. Having MP3s on your hard drive for example. (or using ZoneAlarm???) Obviously, that is not the case. There are many legitimate reasons to have MP3s and having them does not cast anyone in any particular light. And folks should not have to explain themselves for it, either. I haven't yet, but plan to rip all my LPs to CD. It's not illegal and it's not unethical. Ethics - 1 plural but singular or plural in construction : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation 2 a : a set of moral principles or values b : a theory or system of moral values c plural but singular or plural in construction : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group d : a guiding philosophy From - http://www.miriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary Since ethics are a set of moral principles or values they are by definition subjective, and arrived at by societal consensus. But what society gets to dictate their set of moral principals and values on another? Is it unethical for a government in Africa to OK the use of generic drugs to combat AIDS when a third of their population is dying of the disease and cannot afford to buy the patented name brands? Or is it more unethical for the Pharmaceuticals to sue the that government to try to prevent them from doing so? When that debate started the view quickly shifted from what was ethical and unethical as to patent enforcement. Why? Because ethics are built from societal consensus, and the consensus of society is subject to change. So these ethics arguments will never be settled. jon

If you had any clue about how many software companies have unlicensed, illegal, multiple installations of code compiling programs on computers all over their place, you wouldn't even bother engaging in a thread like this. How do you think the BSA keeps solvent? (hint - www.bsa.org is not the Boy Scouts.) OTOH, simple hypocrisy (or rather, "everybody does it") isn't an excuse for unethical activity, now is it? /P

If you had any clue about how many software companies have unlicensed, illegal, multiple installations of code compiling programs on computers all over their place, you wouldn't even bother engaging in a thread like this. A lot of the software you legally purchased, was created throug illegal means. That means some of the software you BOUGHT, is illegal too!! EVERYONE is a hypocrate. Get over it.

Penguinisto: Oops... Deleted and reposted to add somthing, and your post ended up on top of mine. OTOH, I didn't delete anything mentioning "("everybody does it") as "an excuse for unethical activity". I said nothing of the sort.

to Poppi.... none of it was ethical...other than the cops arresting the kid....the well to doers sshould have gotten the same medicine...perhaps they were'nt caught smnoking pot though to sweeten the look.... to everyone---as I stated way up the ladder, and now its mentioned couple of posts up from this....most people have no clue what ethics is anymore...let alone the fact laws are made to be obeyed, and rules are made to be followed, whether we think we're above them or not. What's troubling, this unethical, dishonest behavior is condoned from the top dog all the way down...and done from the top dog all the way down...hypocrisy is rampant...

Ethical behavior and lawful behavior are becoming more and more, um, mutually exclusive? As I tell my kids, "Do the Right Thing, and if possible obey the law".

Dispite whom the great monarchs, and most successfull politicians of the past have been, it is imminantly evident that the future of technological development, expecially in the 3D Communities abroad, rests, for us, in its own premise/foundation. The broadband p2p power of today provides a pooling of knowledge never before experienced nor planed upon, especially with presence of the freeware search engines available across the net, like KazAa...This will undoubtedly spark the next generation of software applications. The researchers of today would be all the wiser to begin developing thier goods for this intelligence ASAP. Granted this preludes to a utopian fantasy, but then what are we asking for? Not only are more and more MBs of 3D resinating everyday, but 9/10s of that are actually of a fantasy like nature. Think of how many Knights, Wizards, and Dragons you see in the 3D Communities...You can come to this to or fro your dreams! I belive it a shameless pity when people impose useage limitations! I see how the utilites' need to be cared for every month, but beyond that I just do'nt see a need to lay any restrictions on the cutting edge of technology in the world today...This PC right here in this apartment I'm building in my Mother's basement! = )

have any of you jumped the line in a store when it is crowded? I never jump queue. I don't go into the 12 items of fewer line when I have 13 items. I don't consider it unethical to count a bunch of grapes as one item, though B^) I perosnally think that a lot of ethics wouldn't even be necessary to consider if people would just be more polite. have any of you cut someone off in traffic, and, then, given them the finger? Don't drive, but no, I never did that when I did drive. We have a name for people who do that around here. We call them 'Jersey Drivers' have any of you paid only the REGULATED charges on your phone bill, and let the unregulated, which you can't be "shut off" for, just ride and ride into credit hell? Nope. When I don't pay the phone bill, I don't pay the whole damned thing. And that's only recently, when MCI failed to charge me correctly and I refuse to pay the incorrect charged and they refuse to admit they screwed up, because, of course, big companies never screw up. I have a tiny amount of long-term damage to some of my credit from when I lived in a co-rental apartment when I was in University. That's where one four-bedroom is leased to four different people who don't necessarily know one another. Well, I had some of the bills in my name, and one of the other tenants abused my dog and left town with a bunch of high phone bills in my name. I won't ever pay them those other people's bills. I just wish they'd get the clue. have any of you knowingly ever bounced a check? No, but I actually got arrested in Indiana for accidentally bouncing one. Never ever ever go to Indiana. They are looney there. It's illegal to walk funny. have any of you taken and eaten candy from the bulk bin while shopping at a store? No, that would be stealing! Seriously, I never would. I have stuck my hand down in a bin of nuts, though. But I didn't take any. have any of you EVER used cable from a neighbor's connection...splitting the bill, perhaps Nuh-uh. No kidding. But I won't get on anyone else's case about it either. If it's gonna get them karma, it's gonna get them karma. It's not my job to enforce the laws of action/reaction. It'll happen on its own, and the reaction will tell. BTW, despite the fact that I'm a witch, I don't take the 'returns three times' thing literally. Actually, I consider it to be an even reaction in purely Newtonian fashion. It just seems three times worse when it happens to you. However, if anything truly does count as straight out objectively unethical, I'd have to say that thing is Spam. It violates theft, destruction of usefulness, and politeness rules. I think it should bear the death penalty.

And most people proclaiming to be the epitome of ethics regarding software and online activity cheat on their taxes and wouldn't think of bringing an error in their favor to the notice of a store clerk. - what's the point? People can act as superior as they want in a thread when the fact is, their "ethics" are no better in other areas of life.