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Community Center F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2025 Jan 02 4:06 pm)
Subject: Update on Merchant Issues
Oh, all right! I'll bite. "-We acted hastily in the lock out of digital merchants in the merchant forum. The issue was more about conduct in the forum and we should have created a merchant code of conduct instead of removing merchants. Although it does not help the situation currently with those removed, we do offer our apologies for the implementation of this process." We jumped the gun, got mad, and threw people out. If it was you, too bad, so sad, bye bye. Sorry. "-Only digital merchants should have access to this forum. We found a bug in our programming once we made server changes and have found that shippable merchants have access as well. We will change this back and only digital merchants will have access." What's a digital merchant as opposed to a shippable merchant, and isn't a merchant a merchant? "If digital merchants are known or become known competitors, then we may ask those to sign a contract regarding this." What on earth does that mean? What kind of contract regarding what? A non-competition agreement? A non disclosure agreement of all this top secret information? What about a plain old contract like the kind people should be getting before they submit anything to sell here?
Apologies are good. Fair enforcement of these policies will be key, and though you can't bring back those that you've lost, this is definitely a positive step.
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Hmmm... interesting read and take on the situation at hand. I see an apology, which in and of itself was unexpected, however, I am wondering why [if] the fact that the result of the initial lockout was because of "conduct" then why wasn't this initially mentioned when it was first proposed? All of us, merchants removed and merchants who've stayed, were given the impression by Tim's original statement in the Merchant forum, that this was the result of [paraphrasing here so as not to have this post deleted but could post the actual quotes if permitted] being a solid business decision to keep other merchants who own outside sites from "sensitive" information that could otherwise harm the growth of the RMP and Renderosity's end line. That this whole fiasco was the result of shutting out the competition in order to maximize profits and prevent the smaller sites from obtaining any valuable date regarding Curious Labs/Egi-Sys' Content Para... [grits teeth]..dise before becoming suckered into a contract of kissing their collective butts, "provide substantial advertising for Content Paradise" and "refrain from knownly participating in conversations that could cast Curious Labs/Egi-Sys in unfavoriable light, while associated with Content Paradise". [sorry, could only grit them for so long folks]. Now... now we learn that the whole truth of the matter was the result of poor conduct taking place in the Merchant Forums? Understandable and I certainly agree with the fact that there should be a level of conduct maintained in that forum. While a merchant for Renderosity, I've seen several conversations about certain members of this site and others that had no baring whatsoever on the RMP or the function of the Online Store. I, like some other seasoned Forum-vets, avoided those conversations and threads. So, I heartily agree, a code of conduct SHOULD by all means be employed in that area, so that some of the "personal attacks" that have been occuring in there END. The fact of the matter is this, whatever the true reasons were for the decisions to oust merchants were, many of them had been [we now apparently learn] was the result of some misconduct occuring within that forum. I'd very much would like to see how merchants such as DTHUREGRIF, IRONBEAR and many others had performed misconduct within that forum to warrant their removal. Obviously, without a clear code for conduct having been previously established prior to their removal they were not and should not, for all intents and purposes, be held responsible for any conduct that could be construed as unbecoming without having those codes firmly outlined to them. So your apology should be unilateral and the reinstatement of all individuals who were removed, should they still desire to be merchants within the RMP, should be immediately reinstated and allowed access to those tools and forum with a clear and concise explanation of Renderosity's Code of Conduct and Ethics for the RMP. Furthermore, whether the merchant provides product through Renderosity's marketplace, either through digital download or through mail order, they are REGARDLESS still considered merchants. Obviously, this "new" clause may be the result on the basis that DAZ late last year, around the same time that Renderosity was preparing to "partner" with Content Paradise, was removed from the merchant forum. Folks, a merchant is a merchant is a merchant. If you sell product on Renderosity, though whatever means, you are still considered a MERCHANT on Renderosity. ALL MERCHANTS regardless of method of transaction here on Renderosity should be treated equally and fairly. Consignments given or taken based upon transactional business or through affiliations is unfair. If the store deems that product worthy for being in their store and begin transactions in the sale of those products, than that merchant should receive the same benefits that everyone else has. And until Renderosity decides to start charging or getting paid for Shelf space or higher traffic/increased advertising, everyone SHOULD be treated equally and fairly. I also think that any Code of Conduct that is to be levied on the Merchants, should also be made public in order for future Merchants to be aware of the Code of Conduct prior to submitting to the RMP. Anywhohow, that's just my thoughts on this. I'll be very interested to see how Renderosity will be able to re-install trust with the individuals that they shitcanned in an attempt to prevent "misconduct" in the Merchant's Forum and how many merchants will actually return... if any. Jack
Attached Link: http://www.animotions.com
"-We acted hastily in the lock out of digital merchants in the merchant forum. The issue was more about conduct in the forum and we should have created a merchant code of conduct instead of removing merchants. Although it does not help the situation currently with those removed, we do offer our apologies for the implementation of this process." I would really like an explanation of exactly what in my merchants forum conduct warranted this act. The implication (here for the public to see) is that my conduct was in some manner unprofessional or disruptive. I can't speak for the other locked out merchants, but I truly resent that implication. No warnings were ever issued. No "code" beyond the normal TOS was ever stated. What provision in the new "code of conduct" you speak of did I violate before it was ever instituted? What could Bill Bay possibly have done. I don't believe he ever even posted in that forum? What did LadySilverMage do? "If digital merchants are known or become known competitors, then we may ask those to sign a contract regarding this." And why should competing merchants be singled out to sign a special "contract"? Shouldn't the code apply equally to all merchants? Shouldn't the contract be signed by everyone? And Jack makes a good point. This Code of Conduct should be made public so that potential vendors can read and understand it before making the decision to sell at RMP. Also, not quite sure I understand why only digital merchants are allowed into the merchants forum. Vendors of shippable products are merchants as well and could benefit from the forum as much as digital merchants. I do thank you for taking the time to look at your policies, but I still have grave reservations about the way this was/is being handled.
The long-term mishandling of this and many other issues at this site is a matter of both public record and widespread community knowledge. Bondware, Inc. chose, at the time of the public outcry against these policies, not to respond in a manner that would have led to a resolution through rational debate. Subsequently, a fair amount of vendors, artists, and members have moved on. That was several months ago. As well intentioned as the original post may have been, this seems like a case of slamming the barn door after the horse has fled, found other pastures, a warm place to sleep, and other horses to socialize with. All this, of course, is IMHO.
{Folks, a merchant is a merchant is a merchant.} Yes, but some merchants are more equal than others. Do people really think the bannings (or whatever else) would happen to the top 25 merchants? If, for example, Dark Whisper (with his hot V2/V3 Converter program) ran a brokering site, would the PTB cut off his access and risk him pulling his store? Somehow, I don't think so. What about StefyZZ (with her always best-selling Asia and Yuma textures)? I don't think so. And what about the companies that sell their products here- Curious Labs, eon (makers of Vue), DAZ, and so on? Do they have access to the Merchants Forum? And when you get to be a really, really big merchant, more rules get bent for you. Yes, I'm talking about Curious Labs... are they a merchant (because P5 is sold here) or a sponsor/ partner of the site? You would think that, since they sell their product here, that they would be considered a "merchant" like everyone else. But, since they're also a sponsor and "partner" of the site, they don't have to play by the same rules: post an ad in the Poser Fourm? Merchants- no. Curious Labs- okay. Have a beta forum for your software? Merchants- no. Curious Labs- okay. So, the moral is: make a product that will be a best-seller and you won't get "banned". Show them that your product will bring in thousands of dollars a month. Become a sponsor of the site and you'll get your own forum for testing your products.
Shippable merchants should not have access to the merchant forum and we will correct it this week. Shippable merchants are software companies and those choosing only to sell products that get shipped. Here is my perception regarding Jack's post. There was actually both sides of the coin happening...the discussion was conduct and owning a store. The decision was made that if you were an owner of a store, then you probably should not have access to this forum for all the reasons mentioned earlier...confidential information, competition, etc. It was implemented hastily without looking at all sides. If you were removed from the forum, it was most likely because you were an owner/manager of an online store. I think with the continued discussions and the incident with Ironbear..we stepped back and listened. I had some private communications with Ironbear as well which I could not give him -what I considered a reasonable explanation. He and many of you were removed because of participating in another online store. This team did not like where this was heading. It did not feel right. So - we backed up and took a hard look. I think we wanted to have a merchant forum where we could talk openly about upcoming features without other sites knowing in advance but we really know that that information probably will circulate. I think more than anything we were reacting to fears. We had good intentions just the wrong actions. When we really looked at the core of these issues, it was more about owners and their potential conduct...not admins or managers of other sites but owners of others sites and misusing our marketplace, tools, and communications for their own benefits. Those merchants removed were removed for the wrong reasons. We made a mistake and trying to correct it. We appreciate all members giving their feedback. It made a difference. thanks tammy
"When we really looked at the core of these issues, it was more about owners and their potential conduct...not admins or managers of other sites but owners of others sites and misusing our marketplace, tools, and communications for their own benefits."
This reeks of paranoia and seems to indicate that "if we [R'osity] think that you may potentially damage our MarketPlace, we reserve the right to pre-emptively remove your access to merchant-related tools at our discretion; whether you pose a 'real' threat or not".
So, yet again, it seems to imply a more subjective enforcement of policy rather than an objective enforcement of policy.
IMHO, if I were a merchant getting ready to sell here, I would think long and hard over whether it was really worth it to compromise yourself in favor of R'osity's subjective policy enforcement; especially given the duality of the "Digital" vs "Shipable" merchant status and the arbitrary contract(s) that must be signed if/when R'osity feels you are becoming a "threat".
IMHO the only reason this thread was started is that the economic ramifications of that original Forum decision are starting to be felt. I'll say it again: Renderosity has a long and well-established history of NOT ENFORCING POLICIES EVENLY. Members have complained about this FOR TWO YEARS. When the decision to lock selected people out of the Forum came, NO ONE WAS SURPRISED. To wit, THIS THREAD IS POINTLESS. Nothing, and I do mean NOTHING, will change here. Tammy, you can explain yourself ad infinitum, but the effect this will have at this point will be so negligible that the post may as well not have been made at all. That the admin of this site has been so unresponsive to people's complaints regarding specific issues (such as application of the TOS based on who you are or what you mean to this site) for such a long time is the message that most users have come to accept that ambivalence as the actual message. There is a perception among some that the admin is callous, and that perception is borne of experience. Sure, this site has a six digit membership... so what? I don't see evidence of any kind of "community", the merchants I know have become so mistrustful that they've left, and many other people I know refrain from posting because they feel it's a sheer waste of time. Change your Merchants Forum all you want.... it's not the problem, it's just a symptom of the problem... and I think most people know that. IMHO, of course.
Why would that be an issue to you, Jeff? What does that have to do with the content of this thread? Or are you simply trying to derail this thread because it's not going the way it was hoped it would go? So please.... explain to me why my identity is even an issue here, when the focus of complaints centers around this site's uneven enforcement of its policies?
I suppose it's no issue to the content of this thread.
I just find it amazing that people go out of their way to have their membership removed from here and leave "never to return" only to sign back in under a new name the same day they "leave".
Maybe it's just a matter of perspective on what people say and why.
-Jeff
"I suppose it's no issue to the content of this thread. " Then why post anything at all? If I were you, I'd be more concerned about how the site I work for is perceived than what individual members are doing when they're not violating the TOS. Right, Jeff? Or would you like me to repost an incident of when you attacked me in early 2000 o5r 2001 (since you obviously know who I am), thereby violating the TOS, and at that time others noted that no action was brought against you. Would you like that, Jeff? Because it would go a long way towards supporting the claims that I and others are voicing regarding Renderosity's uneven application of its TOS, and would lend credence to the "perspective" of the conduct that the admin have shown. Your call. I'd be happy to oblige.
Illusions, ask yourself why a Renderosity admin started this derailment in the first place, and what HIS agenda might be.... and how his posting here might support the basic premise that Renderosity's application of rules is and always has been uneven... which goes to the heart of the Merchant Forum issue. Think about it.
Jeff, use the IM's, that's what they're there for, jeez. ;) "Shippable merchants should not have access to the merchant forum and we will correct it this week." Whynot? The delivery method of someone's products has jack (Sorry, Jack) to do with their current or potential integrity as far as betraying site secrets or behaving themselves in the merchant's forum. Plus, it's obvious from experience that several people were not lacking in integrity or honesty- Lady Silver Mage, for one. To vaguely imply otherwise is irresponsible at best, and slanderous at worst. There was actually both sides of the coin happening...the discussion.." In the mod forum or with the actual merchants? "... was conduct and owning a store." Two seperate topics, right? "The decision was made that if you were an owner of a store, then you probably should not have access to this forum for all the reasons mentioned earlier...confidential information, competition, etc." Great. Just come right out and say you will tolerate no competiton on site and will do whatever it takes to elimenate competitors. Just be honest about it, for godssake. "It was implemented hastily without looking at all sides." Usually when people admit a mistake, it's because they are trying to correct it. "If you were removed from the forum, it was most likely because you were an owner/manager of an online store." Again, vague accusation with the potential to be interpreted as slander and charachter defamation. "I think more than anything we were reacting to fears. We had good intentions just the wrong actions." So did a lot of former business owners flipping burgers. If you want peopel to trust and believe in this place, do sometthong that proves you deserve it. I haven't seen anything lately. "When we really looked at the core of these issues, it was more about owners and their potential conduct...not admins or managers of other sites but owners of others sites and misusing our marketplace, tools, and communications for their own benefits." I'll remember that, and so will others. If you even think of touching admins or managers of other sites who are not owners, prepare to get hit. (This is assuming that all the merchants removed were site owners.) "Those merchants removed were removed for the wrong reasons. We made a mistake and trying to correct it." Prove it. If it's a mistake, undo it. Otherwise, quit blowing hot air. "We appreciate all members giving their input has made a difference." We'll see. I don't know why I post in this, other than the fact that I hate to see people get manipulated over and over. Besides, there's the fascination of a train wreck. Also, if you actually listen to what I and others are saying, you'd realise that i's the ones you call enemy who give teh best advice. If you want to have a successful business, do the following- 1. Be upfront 2. Be accountable 3. Say what you mean and mean what you say. ....it's a good start.
I like to sit back and watch how some members just like to bitch about anything that comes up. The PTB screws up, Ya bitch! They try to tell ya why, Ya bitch! They fix it, Ya bitch! Seems to me that they can't win no matter what they do. How many members in this thread are merchants? If your not one, it's not your battle! Move on to something that is. Heres a thought, If a merchant left and went to another site, go find them....Duh!
Nematode: *"Illusions, ask yourself why a Renderosity admin started this derailment in the first place, and what HIS agenda might be.... and how his posting here might support the basic premise that Renderosity's application of rules is and always has been uneven... which goes to the heart of the Merchant Forum issue.
Think about it."*
I don't have to...I've seen JeffH in action before and I have a fair idea of his agenda. Don't much like how he treats people or reacts to them. But I must admit, I did silently ask myself what agenda someone who has been a member for such a short time, who has no freestuff, no tutorials, no gallery, no merchandise, and only 3 minor posts in the Poser forum, might have by posting those comments in this thread. Funny how you've been a member under this nick less such a short time yet you know so much and have such a bitter viewpoint. Why hide who you really are, unless you're afraid you'll lose credibility.
Think about it.
"How many members in this thread are merchants? If your not one, it's not your battle! Move on to something that is." HAR... that is so rich coming from a nobody who has no store, no gallery, no name here himself and just comes in to bitch! Take your own advice and move on, then.
L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.
Ok, this thread has gotten to the point where member are slinging shit.. It over now.
You can't call it work if you love
it... Zen
Tambour
The only way to resolve issues is to work through them. The best way to do this is through e-mail. Many merchants were working with us via e-mail to get this issue resolved.. If you still have issues with this, please take it to e-mail Thanks Spike admin@renderosity.com
You can't call it work if you love
it... Zen
Tambour
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I want to thank all members and merchants for your feedback on this issue. We have spent many many admin communications on these issues. We are currently communicating with our merchants on both the issue of merchant forum and the product upload forms. Our new policy for upload form changes is to give merchants 7 days notice before making live. We are in this process now and will be making the final changes next monday. Since you have been a pivotal voice, we wanted to include you in the decisions. Regarding the Merchant Forum -We acted hastily in the lock out of digital merchants in the merchant forum. The issue was more about conduct in the forum and we should have created a merchant code of conduct instead of removing merchants. Although it does not help the situation currently with those removed, we do offer our apologies for the implementation of this process. -Only digital merchants should have access to this forum. We found a bug in our programming once we made server changes and have found that shippable merchants have access as well. We will change this back and only digital merchants will have access. -All digital merchants will have access to the merchant forum. However, the merchant forum is a service that Renderosity provides to digital merchants. We have created a code of conduct that we expect all merchants to abide by in order to retain privileges to this forum. If digital merchants are known or become known competitors, then we may ask those to sign a contract regarding this. We are currently sharing these details with merchants now and will be live on Monday. Regarding the Upload Form We have made some changes to the Digital and Shippable upload page. This is currently being shared with merchants and will become live next Monday. We appreciate all the feedback that we received and thanks for working with us on this issue. thanks tammy