Does anyone else get annoyed at the use of DOF in images were it shouldn't be? To me, DOF tends to imply (as a photographer) that I didn't get the focus right. Don't get me wrong, in some circumstances I want that effect, but when half the object of interest is blurred due to DOF, it still feels wrong. I feel that while it can be a useful tool, it is necessary to use it a lot more sparingly and carefully. (My opinion and thanks for letting me rant!) Your turn...

What ticks me off is lens flares in a digital pic. I went all out as a film photographer to try and eliminate lens flares in my pics and when they did show up it was usually because of my cheap lenses.

I hate that I only vaguely understand what you photographers are talking about. I should just read a book so I can stop being confused. :) Actually, I don't mind the rants because it gives me more things to think about that will (hopefully) let me make better pictures. Lin

Personally, I don't mind if the DOF is used well. (I think we're saying the same thing here). In my photographs, sometimes I do search for out-of-focus areas. As for the lens-flare, it's really rare that I like it in digital pictures... in fact, I must say that usually is a pleasure-downer. But, also with lens flare, there's someone who uses it really well... Stefano

A lot of times I've tried to use DOF on an image and it makes everything that isn't blurred look like a toy. (I don't know, maybe it's just me.) It ends up making the whole scene look like miniatures that were set up and photographed to me. But if used correctly, it can really enhance some images. And lens flare can really make some scenes, but it should be used sparingly. Just my .02.

of course it all depends on the type of scene. A selective focus scene where you want one object to stand out obviously has a need for DOF. On the other hand, a landsacpe scene is best done with no blur whatsover. Re: Why does DOF sometikes make things look like miniatures? Well, if you take a close-up pic with a camera on a single object, you set the aperature to a low setting, which increases the blur arround foreground and background objects. But say on a medium-length scene, for example the front of your house, most likely a photographer (or an automatic camera) will use a higher aperature setting, which blurs the image less, so you can see more of the details over a greater distance (your mailbox and your house are in focus.) Now in a landscape scene, you want no blur, so you set the aperature to a very high setting which blurs the image the least and allows the most focal depth. However, doing so often means you must expose a picture for 2 minutes or more, especially at night, and that's why many people use tripods. Anyhoo..here's what that means: We are used to associating strong blur with close up objects, so in scenes that use DOF and are not close up shots, it's best to use a very low DOF setting. I am NOT saying not to use DOF. In fact, you should always use DOF, even if it;s just a bit. No matter the camera, a photo will always have a slight bur.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=208790&Start=1&Artist=catlin%5Fmc&ByArtist=Ye

I'm liable to upset the photographers here, but this is a link to one of the first images I did with Bryce and it has lens flare. Please take a look and give me your honest opinion, I still like it but I'd really like to hear what you think. I hope I can take it, so give me what you got, then I'll run and take cover. :) Cheers Catlin

I think in regard to lens flare, the effect that people really want is that of a star filter on a light source. We often tend to use a simulated lens flare which has components due to the multiple lens components individual reflections/artifacts. I would love to find a good digital equivalent of a star filter! Lin, lens flare is a lighting artifact experienced with less than great lenses. A camera lens is not a singlr optical component but a stacked series. When you shine a strong light into this set of components you get (due to refraction) secondary areas of illumination due to the individual components not all working just so together. It is NOT an indication of professionalism! This is why I suspect people would want the star filter. This usually is pattern etched single filter at the front of the lens which will flare the strong light intoo a radial star pattern. There are no other artifacts with this (when done with a good lens). DOF is Depth of Field, Due to the size of the shutter's apperature, when open, light physics dictates what range of distance from the lens is in focus. This effect can be used to isolate an object of attention from a background as a valid technique. However, for most images, where the object of interest and background are at approximately the same distances, this should not be apparent. Miden - the toy effect may be due to the loss of visual connection with the setting the object of interest is situated in. To my mind this is a prime example of the dangers associated with DOF usage. Bryce in many ways is a virtual camera (IMHO) and I tend to try and use it like one. Richard

Very good answer Madmax! Catlin, I think it works in your image because the light from such a source world cause this in almost any lens. As a simulation of a photo that is.

I took a picture with me lores dig cam today. It was too blurry and overexposed but it illustrates a 'star' effect (I'll try again tommorrow later in the day and further away from the ball.)

Attached Link: How Do You Get To Carnegie Hall?

though I would tend to agree that certain elements tend to be over-used, or not used like they should, This is a link to the first image I ever posted on renderosity... I thought it was a good image, but adding the lens flare, IMHO, made it fly. I have never been much into abstract, expressionism, cubism, etc. From the time I was small and learning how to hold a crayon, I tried to draw things like I see them. And now, though the tools have changed, I still feel the same way. If I look at a bright light, I'm going to see a flare, whether it's from the lens in my eye or a camera. Therefore, regarding both DOF and lens flares, again IMHO, if it is done properly and looks realistic then, by all means, do it. But if it's off, everyone knows it's off, and it can ruin an image rather than enhance it.

Both lens-flares and DOF can add karakter(sp?) to a scene. You have to use them correctly and with a well codinated strategy, just throwing the effects in to say you used them usually is not going to add to the image. What I miss in bryce is specular blooming and the star-effect that bikermouse illustrated. You can get great effects with them, but adding them in postwork doesn't allow for correct interaction between the light and the rest of the scene. But then again, not even the most professional renderers fully support this yet (okay, one or 2 maybe, but that's it). It's a new upcomming technology to render these things. use them correctly and they're powerfull.

if anyone knows of a good effect plugin to do star effects in postwork (i.e. with PS or PP) let me know!

Incarnadine, Try flaming pears Solar cell for flares and that kind of stuff. I also have a freebee set with some flares at a 2Kx2K res. It's in freestuff.

Try Knoll Light Factory - has oodles and oodles of editable and customizable flares! Here is a quick sample pic.

The light factory is a bit on the expensive side for a bunch of plugins. Isn't there anything else a little bit cheaper or that can at least be tried as a demo first? Catlin

I'll look into those - thanks!!

KPT6 includes a nice lens flare effect, but I have no clue where you can get it these days.

catlin mc, Solar cell has a 30-day free downloadable demo. I've played with it and it's worth the download. Just load the plugin into Photoshop or UFX (probably works in PSP too) and it should work fine.

Yep, Solar Cell is the right choice, IMO. It's cheap, has a 30 day evaluation and works both in PS and PSP as a plug-in.

Ok I've got Solar cell so how do I use it to get this sort of effect on a light source? Thanx 8)

You have to load the plug-in in PSP or Photoshop. I used it in UFX, because I don't know how to import it into PSP. If you can make a screenshot of the interface I can probably remember most of the settings. My demo version is expired, so I can't make a screenshot myself. I know I used it to make a flare against a black background and then add the flare-image as a new layer in screenmode. I used to combine several flares sometimes to get more complex results.

Here's a picture for you rayrax, is this what you are talking about?

rayrax = rayraz the lights are so bright I can't see to type properly

The sun settings: Radius = disksize Cold/hot = the type of light the star gives. hot stars give more blue light and cold ones more red light. (I hope this is what the slider does, I'm not sure) Swirl count = the amount of swirls on the surfase of the sun. These swirls are only visible when you choose the right type of sundisk. (you can set the sundisk by clicking on the square with the yellow circle in it. the square is located above the text vortices) Swirlsize = The size of the swirls that can be seen on the surface of the sun. Smear = you can set how sharp or washed/smeared out the features on the sundisk appear. Detail: This controls the amount of details on the sun-disk. Higher detail is not always better. This setting is really something to just fiddle with and see what looks best.

The Flares settings: Flares are streams of particles blown off the suns surface. So this is not an optical lens effect yet. you can use these to create pulsars, supernovas, and those little red glowy flames you can see near the edge of the moon during a solar eclipse. But it can also just create a nice stylish flare. Count = number of flares. higer number means more streams of particles. Radius = the reach of the particle streams. The higher the radius the further away from the sun-disk the flares reach. Width = The width of the particle streams. Detail = The amount of details. More details can also mean a softer look of the flares (if I remember correctly. this could also be the other way around) Brightness = overall brightness of the flares. The circle at the right: the little blue dot defines where the flares are. The closer the dot is to the center of the sphere the broader spread are the particle streams. Moving the blue dot outwards creates more flares at the side the dot is pointing at and less at the other sides.

The Spikes settings: This is an optical effect. It creates the rays of light you see when you take a picture of a bright object. Count = number of rays. radius = the reach of the rays. (of far away from the sundisk do the lightrays go untill they're washed out) Width = the width of the lightrays. Gamma = a bit like the falloff of the rays. The more gama the more intense the rays look. Diffraction = Banding you sometimes see on lightrays because of diffraction created by the lens. A bit like the rainbow-effect, but then inside the lightrays instead of in he sky. Detail = amount of details. works the same as the other detail settings previously mentioned.

The Halo settings: The halo is the alround glow the star creates. Radius = how far does the Halo reach. Brightness = how bright is the Halo.

Oops, Forgot the circle next to the spikes.. This one works the same as the circle for the flares.

The Bow settings: The bow is a like a rainbow that goes all round in a circle around the sun. Radius = this controls how far away from the sun the bow apears. Width = this controls how wide should the bow-effect be. Brightness = Overall brightness of the bow. Smear = this controls how blurred/smeared/washed out the bow is.

Other settings: Color-pickers: the little colored squares next to the sliders. These control the color of different parts of the flares such as spikes and halo. Master brightness: overall brightness of the whole flare. vortices & monopoles: I forgot what these do. The square with the marble at the bottom right controls the way in wich the flare gets placed in the image (a bit like layer modes in photoshop) The buttons at the bottom from left to right: Randomize, ?, load flare settings, save flaresettings, undo, cancel, register solar cell, ok. The preview window speaks for itself.

Thanks Rayraz this is sooooo good. I haven't seen such detailed discriptions of FlamingPear plugins like this anywhere else. You are my hero.............:} Catlin