can someone please claify this. Does Commerical normally refer to selling the product or a item that contains the product or does it refer to using the product in a rendering-art which is then sold. Thanks

I suppose that you refer to the commercial/non-commercial indicators on the free stuff? As I understand it, "commercial" applies to both the situations you describe. Getting paid for a render that includes the product is commercial use. Re-selling the actual product (or a selling a product that includes it) is not only commercial use, it is also considered copyright violation.

Have to agree with Kelderek. This refers only to the images that are created with the product. Reselling the product is a copyright violation.

As someone who offers free models for 'non-commercial use only' (not here at R'osity, tho), my "opinion" is it's definitely a copyright violation to resell the product itself, but using it for a render and selling the render only is fine. HOWEVER--that is only MY opinion. Other folks obviously feel as Kelderek does.

Best and safest bet---CONTACT THE PERSON OFFERING THE PRODUCT DIRECTLY and ASK -THEM- how they wish it handled. (sorry for the shout...)

Many people will be willing to work with you if asked politely, but get VERY cranky if you make assumptions. mytwocentsworth

I do think you have a point, Rosemaryr. There has been a lot of debate concerning the "non-commercial use only" here lately. My interpretation is the one that appears widely accepted as the intention of the "non-commercial use only" indicator for free stuff. However, from legal perspective, I find it highly unlikely that anyone can forbid someone to include an item in a picture that is rendered for commercial reasons. I see this more as respecting the wish of the artist that generously offered the product for free. It's always safe (and polite as well) to ask first.

Great. We've now got over 8000 of these notices yet can't agree on what they really mean or point to any authoritative reference. Perhaps a little standard definition somewhere in FS...

To be on the safe side, assume that "non-commercial use only" means no renders using those products may be sold. You can always contact the creator to see what arrangements can be made. You are never allowed to redistribute the item itself, especially not commercially, without the explicit permission of the creator. Since this site has members from all around the world, not all of them native English speakers, it's difficult to be sure what they understand "non-commercial" to mean. I know that Kozaburo requires permission for his items to be used in commercial renders, thus the "non-commercial" for his items. I also know that some Free Stuff creators are simply trying to make sure that the items aren't sold but don't have a problem with them in a commercial render. Sometimes the readme will clarify it. As Kelderek pointed out, it's not just a matter of what is legally enforceable, it's also a matter of ettiquette. These people are spending their time and their money (bandwidth) to create things for us to use. It's only polite to use the items as they ask. (I'll see if there's something we can do to make the upload area more clear.) Cheers!

Yes, ettiquette is very important, especially since it seems things requiring only dial twitching (such as individual face files, lights, and poses) cannot be legally restricted from use in commercial renders. Though selling or redistribution of such items is verboten.

Thanks for input. As I see there is no clear def. of commerical or none commercial use. My concern is in finished renders. Perhaps a note that or indicator that specifclly states if the item can be used in renders. Gotta share this I'm sitting in my kitchen replyng to a post (and my computer is in my office at the other end of the house) on my new view sonic Air Panel Smart Disply . coooool, now lets see how poser run on this thing

Crescent, hmmm ... we might want to put a description in the thing Everyone, this is the general use as I've seen it here: Commercial use : can be used in a render that the artist will get modey for. Cannot be resold, distributed or modified Non-commercial use: Can be used ONLY for non-profit personal use. Cannot be resold, distributed or modified Public domain : do whatever you like, sell it, render it, the artist wiaves all copyrights (very very rare) I can say that I hardly ever download anything that is marked non-commercial use. Since my images are being made to be sold, its not worth my time and bother, no matter how nice the thing might be.

Lyrra, in case you guys do decide to elaborate on the Non-Commercial/Commercial tag definition, please consider a couple of points: ( from posts by Crescent & yourself) - "non-commercial use only" means no renders using those products may be sold - Commercial use : can be used in a render that the artist will get money for Please bare in mind that works may be donated, or used for non-profit, yet revenue generating endeavors, which would clearly still be commercial applications, i.e. someone donates an image, which includes a commercially restricted gun prop, and that image is subsequently used by the NRA in a national magazine ad. I would think that seeing his work in a full page, paid ad in Sports Illustrated is probably not what the original rights-holder had in mind when he stipulated no commercial use. Perhaps a broader definition of Commercial Use, avoiding the criteria of financial gain to the artist or the elusive concept of profit altogether, along the lines of: Any transfer, distribution or publication (other than the artists personal portfolio or exhibitions) that serves to either directly or consequently generate revenue. I think that such language would exclude all the "non-profit" loopholes, yet still allow folks to show their stuff on their webpage or in the galleries. ...but then IANAL either :-)

Hate to muddy the waters but here are clips from a few freebie non-commercial use only Even those that post seem to differ in what they mean - some imply renders are acceptable. Implies repackaging and resale of the zip or files contained within is prohibited >At no time and for Under No Condition may any part of this zip file be use in another commercial package with out my written permission Implies one can not resell the textures or bmp. but not the resulting work >All Textures and bmp files sent with this package are subject to copy write and may not be reproduced or distributed with any other product with out written permission. This says do what you want with it. > Usage: It would hardly be fair to limit usage of a file which was simply a modified one that someone else kindly let me use, so do what you like with it! I would greatly appreciate it if you could email me images made with this or any modifications made to it. This states clearly what the designer means and leaves no room for misunderstanding > This version of my free xxxxxxx has been designed for DAZ's Victoria 2. You may use this products for all your personal images. For commercial images, you'll need permission from xxxxxx (the copyright holders of xxxxx) you may not re-sell or re-distribute this mesh package whether in whole or in part. Four different freebies four different views - two vague- two clear yet at opposite ends So if the Artist don't agree on the meaning of non-commercial It makes it difficult for those who download such items to determine the meaning.

Which brings us back to:
When you have a question, ask the person --directly-- exactly what they mean. A polite inquiry shows you are interested in following the groundrules, and want to co-operate. Better to get the rules firsthand from the source involved, than to guess about it based on "Well, I think that..." or "Most people say..."

It's those people with no intention of co-operating with the providers of downloads, who plan to use stuff any way they choose regardless of posted statements, that cause 99% of problems. And no amount of copywrite protection statements will stop ever -them-.

[hops down from soapbox, gestures for next Speaker]

Granted - The question was never about what the artist intended but what was the meaning here.

Granted - The question was never about what the artist intended but what was the meaning here.