Hello, I know people get so excited being able to impress people with their latest and greatest but come'on we all know better now. Especially seasons users like this one. Even some of the big texture names used to pain over Vicki maps but after all these years it gets a bit old. I know it seems silly to some but look at those download numbers. Daz is trying to make money off their maps too. :( Stuff like this at these quantities weekly is very damaging. I know we are all friends but can't people see that products will either just go up in price or we will stop bothering with variation products completely. sigh. If you know people doing this stuff I plead with you to tell them, as a firend, to knock it off. Or let us know and we will do it. We have to work together. Can the textures in this persons's Freestuff contributions please be removed. These are just two obvious samples from their maps and ours. Thanks and regards, Anton PS: Still no responses from Site management about clearer text in Freestuff. Been several months now we have been asking. I personally am still willing to help write the text if someone would please at least try to help.

PS: Even though this person's maps are blurred and heavily modified, you have to start from scratch. They can't use Daz maps as a base. Does that sound crazy? Forgive the usual typos. :)

I am assuming you contacted this person BEFORE you made it a public issue to ask him/her to remove it, but got no response...right?

No i didn't. And don't plan to either. People need to see there is a problem. I have have no interest in explaining something to someone who already knows better. :) The link is here. We'll handle the website though.

Very serious indeed. If this textures (base) was $10 (not unresonable) it would be according to the number of downloads $14,280 in lost revenue for Daz. Sometimes I don't think people really fathom that 1)it's illegal and a crime, and 2)just how much they are hurting content creators. I deleted the file off my HD. Thanks for pointing it out, I wouldn't have noticed that it was a Daz derived texture.

Anton, I understand what you are saying. I abhor ripoffs. And warez. And if I ever produced anything, I'd probably feel quite a bit of anger if it got "ripped" and distributed free. I must confess I downloaded this freebie. Actually, the texture was of secondary interest to me (though I like the freckles). The morph was what attracted me the most. As an unknowing user or Poser, I didn't know I was doing wrong. It just looked good to me and was free. But considering my position on stuff like this, I have a dilemma. I would still like to use this freebie (sometime) but I don't want to step on DAZ's toes. So, if I purchased V3 and the high-res textures from DAZ when they were first released, wouldn't it be OK for me to use this person's texture since DAZ has already gotten a sale from me? (I hope this is not a stupid question 'cause I don't want to "steal" and I don't think I would be). Please let me know.

This has been taken to IM. Please don't let this thread degenerate into a slanging match. Thanks, Kev.

Well, I HOPE I wasn't "slanging". Just trying to understand if I am doing wrong by using the freebie above since I purchased the V3 DAZ textures for V3 some time back. I'm just trying to find out if I would be doing something wrong and if so, what.

Chuck, I'm sure you can understand that we can't say that the use of any warez product is something we are comfortable with. I'll leave that up to you to decide. Kev, What is "slanging"? "Slinging"? Not sure. Anyway. Their sample is on the left. Ours is on the right. The V3 maps were cloned onto Snowsultan's template and blended into new sections. The clones areas were tone shifted and blurred to match the new areas. These are just a few of many regions. Worst part is that it says right on the maps you cannot change and distribute them.

And, I agree with that, Anton. Fully. I guess the problem is that people could buy V3 and then get this download and not have to buy the textures for her. It would upset me, too, if I was DAZ. But since I already purchased the textures from DAZ, I haven't cheated them, so to speak. "Worst part is that it says right on the maps you cannot change and distribute them" So, if I wanted to, could I change the textures for my personal use? IF the answer is yes, then could I have a friend come to my PC and "paint" over the textures for me to use since I'm a texture idiot? Not for distribution, mind you. Just for me. (the quote above is a bit ambiguous to me...does it mean that the textures can't be changed AND distributed? Or does it mean the textures can be changed so long as I don't distribute them?) Thanks again, Anton.

No Chuck, you weren't 'slanging' ;) It was just a pre-emptive comment since these types of thread can sometimes go nasty. 'Slanging match'. Just a British colloquialism for an argument. Kev.

Yeah you can change stuff for your own use. That is fine. Making freebies or products for people other than yourself is not allowed. It seems to be the need to share that is causing the problems. This is what is said on the maps. It means that textures for sale or as freebies must not include any part of any daz texture, transmap, or bumpmap... no teeth, no ears, no figernails, ahnd, feet, lashes, lips, etc. Hope that helps, Anton

Yes, Anton, that helps a lot. DAZ has VERY fair prices and no one needs to cheat them out of sales. (and that doesn't even take into account their astounding service record). Tks again!

Kev here is the other sample you wanted. this time a section from the transmap. CLoned, blurred and added to. Theirs on the left. Vicki's on the right.

I hesitated to answer. My English is too poor to enter in discussed.... I don't have an excuse, it is true that I wanted to go too quickly in work. I had the departure makes this texture for my personal use. I added this texture has the morphs that I knew successful, and I didn't think anymore that some parts of this texture I didn't belong. I know the importance of them (c). People will be able to testify that I attached a lot of importance there always. I committed a mistake. It won't have some anymore, I stop. I quite find the reaction of Anton legitimate. I deplore merely that it is made in public. I thank all people who showed me the sympathy during these three years. valentin

I really this it is deplorable of Anton to come charging in here, accusing Valentin in the manner he did. There is a contact email; this could have been easily settled privately and with no embarrassment. Anton, you are correct in defending Daz but have the decency to consider feelings once in awhile. Valentin, your work is marvellous...please reopen your site. :) Irene

I have agree.. since there is now a Moderator for the Freestuff area. That is the correct channel, not calling a witchhunt in the Poser Forum. I dont' care who Anton works for, or who he thinks he is. there are correct channels. Your actions Anton, instead of defending your / Daz's postion, infact drag mud onto Daz's reputation.

I disagree. I can see both side's points but I really don't agree that Anton is dragging mud onto Daz's reputation. The fact is - things like this happen too often and it seems there are lots of people who just don't UNDERSTAND that it's not allowed to do stuff like that. Sometimes people need a reminder. But then again that's just me. I do believe it was a mistake on Valentin's part but I also understand Anton. Let's just move on, shall we?

Anton, I understand your increasing frustration, but I think you should follow the chain of command like the rest of us. It builds your case better. More on the general problem of this occuring again and again, on the upload page, this is what it says for copyright. "Copyright: For Poser/DAZ related products, please read the copyright guidelines before uploading." That's all, just one sentence and a link. Yes, the link has the full copyright page and people SHOULD read it before posting their first freebie. People should also drive the speed limit, and they don't. Every link that has to be clicked to get to information loses a significant portion of your readers. Would it really be that hard to add "All items must be 100% your original work or have the original creator's permission"? We're just talking a little butt coverage here. Repeatedly this problem has come up, and repeated Renderosity has not done anything to pre-empt it, not even adding a simple statement. This would not look good in a court of law.

Nuff said - how about calling it quits!

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12357&Form.ShowMessage=1179059

posted at the link above... tammymc on 4/3/03 13:46 : "Coming sometime next week, we will be changing the way the freestuff areas works and will be implementing an approval process for freestuff uploads. " hope that helps...

Anton, are you an official spokesman for DAZ? Are you autorized by DAZ to conduct business in this manner? You really are not doing DAZ any favors. OK, piracy is wrong, and I don't buy the creator's "excuse." People should know better. But Anton, you should know the correct way to handle such matters. If you're not authorized to speak for DAZ, then keep quiet.

DAZ has told the stores and the community for years that members, even merchants were painting over their textures and distributing them for free or selling them commercially.

While I can see Anton's point, it may have been better to just say, "Just to advise everyone that this is a copy of one of our existing textures and we've requested its removal." No moralizing or finger-pointing; leave that for the mods. We all know the problem, and it looks like it's happening less and less frequently because we all know the seriousness of it. Just mentioning it will make the work suspect enough that people will avoid it like the plague.

Just a thought here.
If someone has heavily modified a texture made by Daz or other merchants and feels the need to distribute this as part of a package could it be done using photoshop layers ?
If the original texture layer was removed prior to redistribution then only the changes are shared and the recipient would then need the original texture to get the desired result.
The beauty of this would be that the changes could be used with different base textures to get a variety of final textures.

Attached Link: vicky texture development pack

For future reference there is a texture development pack for people to use instead of daz's maps over at poser pro's. You can use it to paint on and sell and such. I don't want to be accused of advertising here but this would solve the problem.

Having fought to protect my own textures and those of Stefy from this sort of problem numerous times (accidental or deliberate), I agree with Anton. Every download of this texture is a potential loss for DAZ, and I can understand why he wants this dealt with as quickly as possible. It doesn't sound like Valentin meant to break any rules though, and I hope he continues to be a part of this community. Anyway, thanks for letting us know. Take care. SnowS

well I have seen anton go off a time or two in this forum and I have to say that this time he was clear and forthright and didn't send any wild acusationd flying, so why not give him a break guys. I think 1400 downloads of a product that is in no doubt a copyrite infringement, certainly needs to be pointed out to the poser community in general. quietly deleating it would serve no purpose other then to give the message that you can get away with it... for a while. just my 2c Will Dupr

and if any of us made this kind of post we would be told to use the proper channels. One rule for all. Simple ain't it?

What a terrible thing. Rip-off artists, DAZ, being ripped off. I won't be able to sleep tonight, I'm so upset over this.

I second PeterWahoo. M. KIESEL, you really should have two nicks, as we never know if you are speaking for yourself or for DAZ. If you speak for yourself, I just would say that to point someone (like you are used to do) without any contact before just show a lack of courtesy which is normally banned in the forums. As the moderators have not locked this thread, I supposed it's not the case and that it's DAZ who is speaking. They have surely as a sponsor and as a company some rights that current members don't have. So I don't speak anymore here to M. KIESEL and my further purpose is for DAZ. A lot of companies fight against imitation, copy, piracy. They succeed much better if they respect laws, but also the regard deserved by everyone (especially their customers). I know that it's a never ending struggle, and to explain hundred times the same things can be sometimes irritating. But to use an "internet lynching" in these conditions, with people who are not really representative of your fight, will only damage your image. The purpose is right, the manner is bad. I have a hight image of DAZ. I am sorry to have to say that it has been for me a little degraded today. Serge

It should have been removed but I disagree that people should automatically "know better". There are your repeat infringers who are obvious but there is also the possibility that the person has been told that a significant change is all that is needed. In my years online with digital art, I've run into quite a number who truely believe this to be true.

"Kyle Poll, WSUSA vice president, headed up a campus marketing venture of "Supa Fan" t-shirts, which uses an alteration of D.C. Comics Superman trademark. D.C. Comics could not be reached for comment on this issue. Intermountain T-shirt's Brian Bartholomew, who produces the t-shirts for sale at WSU, said, "A certain percentage of the image has been changed and that makes it legal."

And another misleading article: http://www.allworth.com/Articles/article10.htm

Now most of us here know this isn't the case but not everyone does. Those that don't, have the right to be notified in private. It's the repeat infringers who should be served notice in public. Just like if you have a problem with a merchant. Have the decency to take it up in private and if you don't get a fix, then perhaps is the time to make the issue public.

Perhaps the practice of informing the member personally and directly first to determine purposeful infringement or honest mistake, then making a fair statement in the correct forum informing people that an error has occured and the use of the file is an infringement. If it can be done without a public lynching mentality, perhaps by a mod where the thread could be locked right away. This would protect an honest person making an honest mistake from the public slander based not on that persons knowledge or lack of, but on what we assume they "should know".

Since Caleb is the new mod for freestuff, perhaps this is a good time for an actual policy regarding freestuff infringements. So this is a request to the Administrators and Caleb.

Many have been angered by the public lynchings, and when someone insists they really weren't aware their actions were copyright infringements, the lynching begins all over again and the member is not believed. As someone who learned pretty quickly years ago that paintshop pro "tubes" were mostly copyright infringements, I can understand that someone new might not be fully aware of the laws of copyright.

So, how about something like I suggested in my post above? Infringements reported to a Mod who takes down the file in question and contacts the infringer. There he/she can learn the actual intent of the person, perhaps maintain a record of the infringement for future purposes and then inform the public in a locked thread that such-and-such file contains copyrighted elements and should be deleted if downloaded.

It certainly seems fair to the first time offenders who might truely not know and would keep the mob mentality threads to a minimum.

Has the "offender"'s site been taken down altogther? I hope not, because there was some great stuff there aside from this.

Perhaps there should be a button on the freestuff page that sends an IM to any active Mod regarding suspected infringements, and if they don't respond within a set period moves on the next active mod and so on, guaranteeing a quick response. They'd then be able to delete obvious infringements, suspend those requiring investigation and dismiss mischievous claims (of which there would no doubt be some). The best time to make a public announcement is after the leak has been plugged, so that those of us who have downloaded can delete (assuming we're virtuous).

Cross-posted with Kendra.

Speaking of the textures - is Natalie Abramov a "real" person? I've been to a fan site and all of her photographs look like high quality renders. (Especially the one featuring her and the people at DAZ.)

If this was handeled privately as so many suggest how exactly is DAZ/Anton supposed to let 1400 people who downloaded it know that they are using a texture that was wrongfully created? Sorry guys but this type of thing only turns into a lynching when everyone else tries to defend one side or the other. Presenting the evidence publically isn't the problem, the hysterical reactions to it is...

No one can argue that Anton (and DAZ) had a legitimate grievance in this situation, but I don't agree with the idea that a long-term, contributing forum member who's never broken copyright rules before, and who may have done so this time mistakenly and not intentionally, should be hauled over the coals in just the same way as every warez kiddie who puts the original V3 High Res maps on Kazaa for his pals to download. Valentin has acknowledged his misuse of the V3 map, withdrawn the Joelle item and apologized sincerely. All of that could have been accomplished without humiliating him publically. Without a doubt DAZ was the injured party here, but these bloodthirsty, zero-tolerance public floggings are costing the company a lot of my good opinion, for what that's worth.

Man people just love to jump on Anton. If you were one of the people that downloaded this freebie, as was I, you have pirated, illegal, copyright infringed textures. If you use them then your using stolen goods. If this had been posted in IM, or email I would not have been informed, and I would have still had the files. Anton NEEDED to post a messege to inform people, and he did that, and I for one hope that it never happens again, but should it, I hope he chooses the same exact manner to inform. Ignorance of copyrights does not justify violating them in a court of law. Copyright infringement is a serious thing and can be very costly in penalties and even time in jail. Any theft more than a certain monitary amount is a Felony. People need to be aware, and it is a big issue. someone else can have the soapbox, I'm off and out of it.

I still do not agree that you have "stolen" anything IF you OWN the ORIGINAL high rez textures too. No doubt that Daz has been hit by a copyright violation here, but I don't like the way it is handled.

Valentin has added some of my favorite items to the R'osity community. I think, it should have been handled privately, to get the other side of the situation, instead of leaping at the jugular vein. If you know that Valentin knows better, perhaps you should have asked him/her(?) what happened this time. As far as I know, this is the first and only time Valentin's item was in question, and now we've probably lost another in the dwindling resources people have for LEGITIMATE and excellent quality free stuff. Any time I've been on the site, he/she (?) always gives full credit to others, and has, as far as I know, not stolen anything from anyone. I think, in this case, it was undeservedly harsh treatment to lambaste Valentin, for a mistake in judgement.

?? You know what Kills me? Is that if this were NOT made public folks would just continue on doing this and by the time anyone took notice there would be a bazillion downloads with no need for anyone to then buy the product from Daz.. then Daz would have to increase the price on the product a huge amount just in hopes that they can make their margin before someone offered it for free. In the end this is the type of thing that could cost me and every one of you time or money .. Time because if this continues why should Daz bother to even offer maps for sale? (They take a huge amount of money to create .. they have to pay for the model .. the photography and so on.) If they decide to not include them in the future that means I have to take the time to create my own (and you want to bet they will not be as good). Or like I said they could increase the price trying to make the margin fast, costing me money. I hate to see anyone made uncomfortable .. but if this person has been a long time forum member they should have known this was not alright to do no? An apology is nice and I am glad it was made .. but I still think these thing need to be handled in public If for no other reason than to try to stop the flood of download immediately and let folks that have downloaded the item know that it is not okay to use the map.

I asked, politely, near the top of this thread not to turn this into a slanging match and what happens?