wow this one really looks great my friend. You really made the smoke appear very realistic as well as distant. Glad to see people keep goin and goin on their pics to make them better and better. Looking forward to seeing the next pic!

Looks cool. Gotta be proud of the troops who are underpaid and underappreciated by our very own congress and senate who elevate themselves above the men and women in uniform.

It really gets me how the Iraqi people are beginning to get the message that we are there to liberate them from decades of dictatorship and repression. I love it when they come out of there homes and smile and wave to our troops. For once I think we are doing something good in this world. The Bryster (A Brit)

Great job on the pic BTW..........;-) The Bryser

The Iraqi man who found the US female POW in the hospital when visiting his wife, and reported this to the military should be given a medal for risking his life to let the truth be known. There are hero's on all sides in this war from the allies to the Iraqi citizens, who have risked so much to achieve freedom. Catlin

They risked so much to achieve freedom and had to fight against 12 years of inhuman blockade which only strenghtened the force of their dictator Saddam Hussein while costing the lives of so many poor people. As most of you prolly already know, I'm completely against this war. Thus said, the image is really powerful, and very well done, specially the smoke on the left. A big improvement from the first posting. It really gives the idea of a distant fight, also the sky adds a lot to the overall atmosphere. I don't like the title but, hey, this is way personal, so don't mind me at all :) And I strongly hope and wish your brother will return home soon and safe. Stefano

Stephano I didn't agree with this war when it started and still wish a good result could have been achieved by the UN. But Saddam has to go in order to release the people of Iraq from the brutal regime that has gripped the country for too many years. Since we are now at war, I still do not agree with it but I hope that the allies will succeed and that freedom will come to a people who desperately need it. We are all pretty safe and sound in our respective western countries and have no idea of what it must be like to live with the threats imposed by such a regime and I think that if this action had not been taken then many more innocent Iraqi civilians would have died at the hand of their ruler. A friend of mine who comes from Iraq told me that he agrees with the war because he has seen first hand the death and destruction of the Hussain government and believes that this is the only way to resolve the hell that has existed in Iraq for so long. So in my opinion, if an ex Iraqi citizen can have faith in what the troops are doing then perhaps we should too. Please do not take offence at my words Stefano, this war has hightened emotions on all sides and I don't think anyone knows the right move to make but whatever happens there will always be disagreement and I hope we can all still be friends no matter what we believe to be right. Catlin

Absolutely no offence taken, Catlin! I surely agree that Saddam Hussein's dictatorship hasn't done any good to Iraqi people. I would be completely blind and downright stupid if I said the contrary. I was only saying that the blockade has killed the most feeble part of the population and you know that when people is in strong distress, is more apt to allow a dictator to maintain and strenghten his power. On my part, I have Iraqi friends that live in Italy and are here because they hate Hussein's regime and escaped from the cruelties of it, but that feel deeply offended by this invasion. So, maybe the matter is more complex than this. For sure I believe that freedom can't come by way of 18 days of air-bombing a six million metropolis, and that "humanitarian war" is an oxymoron. I agree with you: no one knows the right move to make after this started, myself included. And of course we can all still be friends. I don't see a single reason not to be. We're not throwing insults at each other, here, and I think we all agree that the loss of human lives is the most important thing of all. I know that many people here have relatives or friends who're fighting right now, and my thoughts are with them. Maybe this is not the right place to discuss such things, even if I feel that an artists' community is the right place. Let's see what the others Bryce Forum people think about it: if you think we should take this discussion somewhere else, I'd be glad to behave accordingly and to continue it privately. But maybe, in doing so, we'll lose a precious opportunity to reason and discuss among sensitive persons (because I firmly believe that sensitivity is the key when you do art of any form, hobbyist or professional doesn't matter). Stefano

nice pic. the distant smoke needs some work... maybe try it with post production and see if it's more believeable. it captures a mood well. i'm currently writing from a dusty tent in the middle east. thought i'd drop in my .02. we have to do something about saddam now, because if we don't, then we're leaving it for our sons and daughters. i can't imagine doing that. it's not even an option. soon as i get home i hope to come here more often. see you all around. ren

Unfortuantely war is the only thing Saddam understands. He is a "man" (and I use that term loosely) of violence who gets off on torture. UN sactions and diplomacy would never work on him, we tried for over twelve years and what did it get? Him continously stalling so he could continue to rebuild his army and weapons. He say one thing and be doing the opposite with the other hand. The Iraqi people had no chance to overthrow him on their own. They tried back on 91' when they thought that they would get help from the USA but because of political manuevering by the UN and the rest of the world we backed down and Saddam slaughtered all disidents. So now we are there to stay until the job is done right this time. It's not like we are laying waste to the whole city/country, we are doing our damndest to prevent that and just hit military targets. This is why this war will cost a lot because of all the precision weapons we are using which are very expensive. The cilvilian casualties that have occured are mostly due to Saddam purposedly putting them in harms way and having his fanatics hold families hostage and sending the others on suicide runs to kill a few soldiers. The ones injured within the city itself are mostly due to Iraq's own AA weapons that missed our aircraft falling back into the city. War is hell and never anything to look forward too, unfortunately sometimes it's a neccessary evil to get rid and a bigger evil. IOW it's the lesser of two evils. May our troops come home safely and the people of Iraq enjoy a new life of freedom free from the terror of a tyrant and murderer. Great render, just one minor detail. Based on the flag and the smoke in the far background you have suggested a fairly strong wind. The smoke from the near building should be stung out in the direction of the wind as well. :)

Aldaron, problem is that "he say one thing and be doing the opposite with the other hand" it's simply not true. No, please, make that "not proven" (you know, I don't trust by far Saddam Hussein's word, but the same is for Bush's and Blair's. The difference is that Bush and Blair said what the UN has proven to be lies). Colin Powell and the Brit person (don't remember the name right now) did a real poor apparition at the U.N., with Blix (the chief of the inspectors) telling them they were altering the truth in front of the whole world. Then you say "It's not like we're laying waste to the whole city country". Let's get this straight, please. It could be seen as a necessary evil (not by me, but it could be by someone else), but it's very hard to believe (ok, let's say it's unbelievable) that 18 days of massive bombing on a metropolis are not assimilable under the concept of "laying waste". It is laying waste. To the country, the buildings and the population. I would like to know how much military targets are still up after 18 days of an average (CNN source) of 2,000 bombs per night. So, please, let's get rid of this "precision weapons" matter. The same I would like about "the civilian casualties are mostly due to Saddam". Let's not joke about it, please. I mean, you say that you see this war as a necessary evil, and you're completely entitled to this opinion. But you simply have to confront the fact, sad and in many ways horrible, that the attackers are killing hundreds and hundreds of the same people they pretend to be protecting and/or liberating. Saddam's not Hitler. He's an asshole, a mean asshole, a ferocious dictator like there are, unluckily, lots and lots in the world (and lots of them are where they are because of US covert or sometimes blatant support). The UN sanctions resulted in lots and lots of poor people dying. And in the further rising of the power of Saddam Hussein. He has no WMDs, you're almost in Baghdad and didn't find anything of such. The UN inspectors were saying that they didn't find any evidence of WMDs. So, let's say that I don't like US because I think (it's an example, not what I think should be done in reality, ok?) that death penalty is (and it is) against human rights convention. This entitles me to invade and attack USofA because "I don't want to leave them to my sons and daughters"? I hope not. I strongly hope not. Nobody but the UN (and sometimes not even them, with this ridiculous "veto-power" of 5 nations) could eventually decide such a thing. And it's not even a war against terrorism. Saddam Hussein is the most hated islamic President among all the Al-Qaeda leaders. Because he's not a fundamentalist. He's mostly a ferocious egomaniac, but his prime minister is Christian (Tareq Aziz) and Iraq has freedom of cult (many Catholic bishops are in there, a thing only "tolerated" _ and badly _ by a great ally of the US, Saudi Arabia, where _ for example _ women that aren't married can't go out of house without a man accompanying them _ something that in Iraq doesn't exist, not even by far). So, why? Why one of our fellow artists (and surely others) has to be in the desert fighting for what, until now, seems in the eyes of the whole world a colossal lie? This is a very strong question, and I really don't have an answer. This said, I subscribe completely your hope and wish that the troops will come home safely. And all my regards and thoughts to richnovak, that _ or so I understand _ is writing from the theater of operations. I won't make the mistake of confounding the behavior of US govt with the feelings of US people and, specially, with the feelings of those who are there to fight in something they think is right. All my best, Stefano

Ok..... might have to rework this one more time. Alderon.... as you noted "just one minor detail. Based on the flag and the smoke in the far background you have suggested a fairly strong wind. The smoke from the near building should be stung out in the direction of the wind as well. :)", I completely overlooked the fact that the smoke on the right es not moving with the wind. That is something that I will need to fix. And.... Richnovak.... " the distant smoke needs some work... " also correct. I will also take note to it and give it some imporvement. Should be able to achieve a similar effect as the smoke on the right has. I will rework this image one more time and then will post it as final.... Thanks all for the helpful comments. I don't like to leave something half or mostly done. I want to do things the best I can. And you see things that I don't necessarily see from where I sit here at my computer. So apparently there are a couple of tweaks that need done yet. :) And Richnovak.... thoughts and prayers are with you and your comrades.... hope you can get home soon. 8-)

I find most of the above comments interesting if only for the fact that this is such an imotive subject. I note that the arab world has yet to raise a finger to help Saddam, with the exception perhaps of syria. What Saddam fails to understand is the power of the coalition war machine, and the disdain with which he is regarded. I think he is a coward and a bully (goes hand in hand) who needed removing and, political motives aside, it is an act of humanity to try to liberate the Iraqi people. Sadly, there have been civilian casualties. Yet Saddam's regime was responsible for more than a million civilian deaths beginning with those who opposed his initial rise to power. As for 'laying waste to Bagdad', wake up and smell the coffee! The US could have nuked Bagdad from a great height had it wished to. The Bryster A Brit

Bryster, please, "Brit" wasn't meant as an offence. At all. If in your language is dispregiative, I sincerely apologize for it, 'cause I didn't know. This said, yes, you're right, the fundamentalist arab world hasn't raised a finger to help president Hussein and won't do it, for the reasons I said above. I'm only wondering why this war. I don't take into any whatsoever serious account the claim that this is being done for the sake of Iraqi people and to bring democracy to them. As for the nuke possibility, hey, are you joking or what? Now, my, should I be grateful that the US didn't use atomic weapons? I think sometimes we really loose the perception and the seriousness of what we say and affirm (me included, probably). So, should I be thinking, "Hey, they're not acting ugly, gosh, they didn't even use a nuke, good ole boyz, how caring they are that they only flamed Baghdad with 2,000 conventionally clustery bombies each of these eighteen nites"? No way, TheBryster. I'm a step beyond (or behind, depends on which POV you have) this. I'm not saying that Saddam Hussein's a good govt. No way. He's a criminal, we all agree on that. I just wonder why this war, when there are so much other (supported, like Hussein was until a while ago) criminals on this battered planet. And he's not directly supporting Al-Qaeda either. So, again, I'm asking myself why. And I don't pretend to have an answer. Only, I don't buy and I will never buy the humanitarian reason they're so eagerly tryin' to sell me since this mess began. As for the coffee... er, actually I'm drinking tea right now. Earl Grey. And in the British fashion, also. I learned how to prepare it properly reading an article by Douglas Adams (who, along with Monty Python, is maybe the humorist I appreciate most in the whole world... hey, but. waitaminnit... they're Brits! All of 'em! Ouch...) :-) Bryster, I hope that is clear that I don't mean to offend anybody. Friendly, Stefano

Let me see if I can get to all your statements. 1. The one and the other quote. He was supposed to have gotten rid of a lot of weapons 12 years ago based on the sanctions and cease fire he agreed to. Scud missiles were one of many things that were supposed to be gone but he has been lobbing them into Kuwait. Chemical weapons of which he stated in the 1200 page report that went to the UN said he didn't have but we have found the chemicals and factories that we have captured along with the suits, masks and antidotes to go with them. Blix purposely ommitted in his verbal address to the UN that he had found evidence of WMD but put them deep in his written report, he tried to avoid a war at all costs. Just as many people think peace at any cost, that's how we got Hitler. 2. We are not laying waste to the city. We have only hit bunkers and palaces along with targets of oppurtunity (tanks, APC's etc). Just because we have been bombing for almost 18 days doesn't mean we are hitting the cilvlian areas, we have purposely avoided bombing some targets because of their location. This isn't like it was in WW2 which only used dumb bombs and you had to drop hundreds just to hit a building. These bombs and missiles are so accurate that we can pick which window to drop it into on a particular building. Fact is we have done very little damage to the city itself. 3. Saddam is very much like Hitler and in some ways worse. He murders his own people, has children raped in front of their parents, kills people for simply speaking out against him, the list goes on. This info is from some of the Iraqis that have fled the country. He is the type of person that sactions don't work on (he simply got richer while the Iraqis starved as evidenced by the warehouse found full of tons of food), diplomacy dosen't work and weapon inspectors don't work as evidenced by 12 years of constant manuevering on his part. This war here is just a continuation of the one 12 years ago, Saddam broke the cease fire almost as soon as it was begun, it's just been reduced to skirmishes until now. 4. Saddam may not be directly connected with Al-Queda but several of their operatives have been captured fighting along-side Iraqi soldiers as well as several other terrorists groups. Training camps have been seized and destroyed. Saddam was giving $10,000 to the families of suicide bombers, etc. He is as much guilty as the terrorists, he is a terrorist to his own country. 5. If the USA treated it's citizens like Saddam treated his I would hope someone would step up to the plate and help get rid of such a corrupt govt. We would be fighting right alongside. But you see we aren't like that. The USA contributes a hell of a lot of aid to the other countries and in truth I think we need to cut back and help our own citizens first, then what's left over can go to other countries. But that's another story. In truth I could care less if we really find WMD's or not, Saddam needed to be taken out (and others should be handled too, hopefully without having to resort to war to do it.....one step at a time). I feel we are doing the right thing and that is bolstered by seeing the Iraqi people cheer when the forces take over a town. No way do I beleive 100% everything that has been stated by any of the govt's as to why this war is happening, some may have ulterior motives. the end result is still the same, the Iraqi people will not have to live in fear of their lives everyday based on what they say. They won't have secret police and Baath party members living in their houses. Jobs will be increased, food will be made available, medical help, etc.

And if it's not for the Iraqi people then what? What is it for? Oil? We get more oil from other places than Iraq, the French are the one's dealing in oil from Iraq, that's why they have been agaisnt this war so much. WMD? Perhaps on a secondary level. Point is if left as we were going for the past 12 years and to let it continue, eventually Saddam would have developed nuclear weapons as well as chemical (hell we know he has these, he used them on the Kurds), and biological. If it weren't for the Iserali's bombing the reactor he had he'd already have nuclear grade uranium. His scientist that fled the country have confirmed that he was trying to achieve this goal. Why do people deny Saddam has these when he's already used them? The inspectors didn't find much because Saddam controlled what they did find. In a country as large as California you can hide things in an awful lot of places, hell there are tunnels running from Saddam's palace to the airport, imagine what else is hidden and where. What does that leave? The end result, the Iraqi people will be free from a evil dictator and be able to form their own govt. Ulterior motives aside this is what's important. The other terrorists in the world will be dealt with one by one by whatever means neccessary, whether it be diplomacy, combat, sanctions or whatever. Hopefully the countries of the world can work together to make the world a safer place. Stefano you can check the Off Topic message boards over at www.Taldren.com for debates on this subject to. But I warn you it can get rather hot at times but most people will post links to back up their staements.

Let's do some math: 2,000 bombs per night. Let's say they're not so precise, so maybe 20% miss its target (where they will go? But to bomb heaven, of course, suiciding themselves before hitting anything innocent). That leaves a rough 1,800. In 18 nights, this sums up to 32,400 bombs. Now, Milan, my city, is almost the size of Baghdad. If I count all the possible military targets, including some banks, plants, etc (not so military, ok, but let's, for sake of maths... and my city is Western, so we have more industries, more plants, more of all), I will arrive to roughly 200 sites. Hm. This means 162 bombs/missiles per single site. Whoa! Possible solutions to the math problem: 1) Iraq's military targets are made of titanium, or kryptonite, and won't collapse no way after a mere 20 missiles, but go up to receive the hundreds. 2) Bombs are not so effective. They hit and a flag comes out with the "KaBoom!" word written in gaudy lettering. 3) They're not surgically precise as it's claimed them to be. If the case is (1), maybe an hydrogen bomb could be taken into serious consideration. If the case is (2), we're all a bunch of funny guys. If the case is (3), alas, the attackers are laying waste. Ok, just kidding. Your points: 1. Where's the proof that Blix hid things on purpose? Where are the chemical factories? I watch American media, never heard any of these, only "hints" immediately taken back. 2. The math above. 3. Agree on the man Saddam Hussein. He's a criminal. 4. Again, no proof of connections with terrorism. He paid the suicide bombers because they were his last, feeble and pathetic resort to fight this already lost war. 5. I would be the first one (and with me so many others, maybe in the millions) to be oh-so-happy if the USofA will begin to think of their people and stop playing the Sheriff of the World. Unlikely, but very welcomed. I know you feel you're doing the right thing. I feel not. And you have a good point: the final result will be somewhat better for the daily life of Iraqi people. This is the only (the only) thing that makes this war barely bearable for me. I hope it will be finished as soon as possible, and with the less possible casualties among all the people involved. Fighting and not figthing. Troops and civilians. Iraqis, British and Americans. Stefano

Aldaron, I read your latest post after I posted mine. I repeat: yes, you have a very good point in this. And I admire your point of view: you say, more or less, "who cares if someone is waging this for OIL? At the end, the Iraqi people will be better." How could I counter this? I don't even want to, because I'm not here to the sake of discussion, but to confront. And you are right on this point. Is a good point of view. What scares me is the statement "they will be dealt with". How many wars again? Already plans for Iran, Syria and North Korea? Hm, attention there... NKorea has the WMD for real, not like Saddam Hussein. NKorea is not a puppet-monster, is a real one. And yes, Hussein had the chemicals because we Westerners gave them to him. He was a hero, remember? He was fighting Khomeini. And Bin Laden and the Talibans? Heroes, remember? They were fighting the USSR in Afghanistan. So, Saddam Hussein had the chemicals and the uranium. HAD. We ceased to provide him with these toys, he doens't have the toys anymore. It's really simple as that. My country provided him, your country provided him, peaceful (?) France provided him. But, hey, I'm not defending this guy. I can't care less if he dies. Oh, well, maybe I will be even happy. And I really don't want to go in a place where the discussion get heated. I want to reason. Maybe argue, if necessary, and maybe use irony and strong words, but I want to read your postings and be able to say: "Hey, Aldaron, you have a good point" without being blinded by dialectic rage. So, I'll stay here. Thanx for this exchange, Aldaron. Stefano

I thought this was a BRYCE FORUM... if you want to talk about war, please go else where and talk about it, It has no place here or anywhere else for that matter. I for certain will not be logging on here again.

Doublecrash: I'm a Brit! (and proud of it) No offense taken. The nuke......I was being cynical, and not very clever. I do think how ever, that placed in the position of being out-numbered by Republican Guard on a massive front, the Coalition might find itself left with no option but to use what are called 'Battlefield Nukes'. And I know we Brits have those. We call them 'Golden Bullets'. History will argue about the rights and wrongs of this war for the next century. I still argue that the British High Command during the 1st World War was incompetent in the extreme. I recall a quote from General George Patton (USA WW2) "You don't win wars by dying for your country. You make the other dumb bastard die for HIS country...." No, DoubleCrash....I'm not offened by anything you have said. Alderon: I agree with you 98% Wigan: Threads are threads. What we end up talking about is always by consent. That is...the thread only grows if enough people feel strongly enough to reply to whatever has been said. If you do not like this thread, may I politely suggest that you visit another thread on the Bryster forum. May the war be over soon.... The Bryster

Bryster, I'm relieved. The fact that you signed "A Brit" made me suspect that the word could be taken badly, that's it. Hm. Re-reading what I wrote in my #18, maybe my irony was a bit off-handed and futile, so for sure you're not the only one to having been "not very clever". Luckily, is very unlikely that the Republican Guard will outnumber the attackers, so it's unlikely they'll resort to such destructive weapons. And Patton... hey, the man knew his business! The quote is just perfect, LOL. For Wigan: Bryster has a point here. Threads live only if there are people interested in them. And maybe now this has gone a bit astray, but it started from a very powerful Bryce picture posted by Swade. Plus, we're not taking up too much bandwidth with our "only text" messages. But I repeat it: if the majority of the Bryce Forum think we're to go somewhere else, I'll comply. Stefano

Perhaps it is the sensitivity felt by many artists that make us all a little unsure of which path to take. This is also why I think we can air our views here most times and for it not to get taken to extremes, unlike some forums I could mention. We all agree that Saddam must go, that the Iraqi people should have freedom from tyrany and that as few lives as possible are lost. How we get to these ends may not sit comfortably with many of us but since we are here at this point in the war I think we should all hope for a swift peace and conclusion with as little bloodshed as possible. I consider people here to be my friends and although we may disagree on the why's and wherefore's we do all want what is best for the world, what is right and just. I've enjoyed this little debate for the passion it has evoked in everyone who has written here and it would be very nice if governments around the world could sit around and discuss matters this way and reach peaceful solutions to problems. Just my thoughts and best wishes to all. Catlin

Swade - that's one fine image, and IMHO it does a fine job of expressing your essentially peaceful wish to see people get back home safely. I won't tire anybody with my views on the matter, all the essential points have already been made in a thoughtful and civilized manner above, but I'd strongly suggest continuing one's study of the tragic situation on www.medialens.org, or www.fair.org. If you are pro-war, their conclusions will offend you, but they offer facts that can be easily corroborated by otther sources (web and otherwise). If you are anti-war, their conclusions will depress you, but they offer facts... Either way, you will find many subjects worthy of being expressed artistically. I hope those who have the guts and talent can and will do so.

A couple of nitpicks: Stefano, "Saddam Hussein is the most hated islamic President among all the Al-Qaeda leaders." Nope. Has absolutely no connection with al-Qaida. At least didn't have before the war started. Aldaron, "And if it's not for the Iraqi people then what? What is it for? Oil?" Wish it was that simple. Though it is partly about oil. It's also about lot of other things. But the war is for the Iraqi people the least, if at all. They are just good PR bonus. Third, let's keep it to renders, please. In that vein: my problem with the image is that empty expanse of sand in the foreground. Looks like something is missing there. Empty shells, a letter home set aside, a gun, a soldier's pack... whatever. Something that will be the focus of the picture. This way you have just background.

So many other Saddam's and regimes all over the world. Are we going to liberate them all? Such a big mess we created over the years. We cannot have double standards. I agree with DoubleCrahs 98%. Peace to ALL. And I mean everyone. I don't mean to offend anyone, and I took no offense from all the opinions posted here. At the moment all I can wish for is a speedy resolution to this war and the safe return of the loved ones. If we are intelligent enough; we should be able to come up with a better solution rather than killing people to spread freedom/liberation.

Erlik, maybe I explained myself badly (not an unusual thing, LOL). I was meaning exactly what you said: he has no connection with AlQaeda and he's hated among AlQaeda leaders (at least, listening to some media "in-sights"). I wasn't saying that he is among AQ leaders. Got my English a bit warbled again... S.