Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=1210658

Said my Gypsies and Genies set was like calling someone a nigger. Why would someone just say something like that. Is this just another one of those clones? Then that bizarre PC post.............. Si is this about blackmaim..am I being punished??? Manipulation?

That's taken out of context. "Genies and Gypsies is a good set, however, I think they wanted an actual Romani outfit, not a cheesecake fantasy suit, Anton. Again, it's a gorgeous figure, but a real, traditional Romani woman wouldn't be caught dead in it." It appears to me, what is being said is the Daz outfit is more fantasy than reality, as are most of the Daz outfits. It was hardly an attack....in fact, it is called "a good set...gorgeous figure." The other part was that calling someone a "gypsy" in certain quarters would be considered an insult, which is fair (I've heard that too). It might be a good idea to read the message again....I think you reviewed it too quickly.

I have not heard the term "gypsy" is an insult. I have heard to say that one gyps someone is an insult. Romani is an intribe name, as far as I know, for an outsider such as us, gypsy has been an acceptable term. I'm going from what my friend-- who is part Romani-Ukrainian says. Seems to me If Anton had advertised these as being part of Romani tribal wear, he might have been wrong-- though the tribes that come from closer to India have clothing as high cut as this at least for dancing, I know, I've bought originals. But he didn't, he advertised it as Gypsies and Genies--since Genies are mythical, I'm assuming that fantasy is just fine. I do wish some people would get a life that was not centered around victimhood. Emily

He wrote: Daz3d really should have thought of doing a bit of research when they decided to release a package with the word "Gypsy" in it, as that's the equivolent of calling a black person a certain word that starts with 'n'.

This is not research????????????????????????????

We used "gypsie" in french (gitane) and it's not an insulte. Roms are a tribs from Romania i think. I suppose it's another "language" problem. Laurent

Agreed dialyn. Actually Khrys was giving you a compliment on the quality of your work, although she did think that the costume itself wasn't really traditional to the Rom and could have said it a little better. It's more a Politically Correct thing than anything else. Remember the "Brown Sugar" texture? Bad choice of a name for a really nice product. No matter what you do, someone will be a little offended. The Rom women I know wouldn't be caught dead in Genies and Gypsies. Of course, they're all over 60 and work in an office. It is really a more Genie look than Gypsie look. Beautiful though, as is all your work. As for the PC post... well, we all want something more. Some want more of this, some more of that. Some just want more of everything. (I want more Mike - hint hint). As for punishment... well, if you ask nicely I'm sure something can be arranged. Take care! And thanks for all of the quality work you do.

From Microsoft Encarta: Roma, commonly known as Gypsies, a traditionally nomadic people found throughout the world. While the term gypsy is often attached to anyone leading a nomadic life, the Roma share a common biological, cultural, and linguistic heritage that sets them apart as a genuine ethnic group. Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2002. 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. I sure don't see any negative connotations here, and have never heard any other than very old, stereotypical, old school stuff. Perhaps the word "gypsy" carries the same narrow-minded stigma that the word "pagan" does for some, which is more than likely due to cultural or societal brainwashing, etc. Who knows?

Screw that. ..cheesecake ..daz better do reseach.. what do you think I am an idiot. There is no compliment here. Just another typical rant of one person saying "do this..do that". Do I put Vicki in nipple clamps? no do I hang her upside down in belts and straps? no but I do cheesecake. I would have you know I spoke to two women with doctorites in Clothing history and design. So screw research. I am sick and tired of being lectured to be people who say "you should have made this" " you should have done that". It is fine and any Rom woman would be happy to wear it. There is nothing wrong with it. It covers her, is dignified, and is NOT Cheesecake.

Gypsie was a negative connotation to the red necks I grew up around in the rural midwest. Not for the tribe, but to migrants who sold bottle medicine or ran traveling houses of ill repute. Often there would be "exotic" belly dancers to get people's attention while pickpockets fleeced the crowd. This was probably not the reality of the situation, but it was the rural legend that the PWT living on dirt farms and small isolated towns came to believe. The negative side really took off in the late '20s and '30s during the depression when so many people did what they had to to get by, moving from place to place because they could never afford a second months rent. You know, like it's getting now.

Anton - he's attacking you because there's no Millennium Cat out yet, you lazy oaf (huge grin). He was just in a mood to rant - no hazard in that, and I'd be hard pressed to take the accusations seriously. I'd take it with a block of salt and move on. Personally, I want * more Aiko stuff in the Plat club, preferably lingerie and high heels and maybe a pair of bondage pants :p. Other folks want more Mike stuff. Still others want new and improved swords for their naked vickies to wield. Figures that y'all had to pick a market niche with so many weird people in it.Guess we'll all just have to settle for the fact that you can;t please everyone :) PS: Get off yer lazy butt and hurry up with that MilCat.:p /P * (Err, in all seriousness give someone over in Draper a kick and get 'em to make at least a couple of generic bits of V3 male clothing.)

Well, Khrys would have to explain exactly what he/she meant by "Daz3d really should have thought of doing a bit of research when they decided to release a package with the word "Gypsy" in it, as that's the equivolent of calling a black person a certain word that starts with 'n'." But I'd hazard to guess that he/she felt as some people do, that the term Gypsy carries many of the same negative connatations as does other racial/ethnic slurs. I doubt that anyone would call a Roman outfit the 'Ancient Wop Robe' or a Samuri Sword, "The Jap Sword". But Gypsy slips under the radar because that group is smaller, less visible and many people don't think Gypsy is negative term. It's one of the legacies of being politically correct and racially sensitive nowdays. We are all aware of the 'Big Ones' that will get you in trouble, but we don't realize that a lot of other 'slang' terms can be just as negative and hurtful to some as the 'Big Ones'.

I rather just delete all my WIP folders to be honest with you.

Attached Link: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm

Link above is a very excellent resource on understanding Romi and their history... Alright, I've been reading this thread and the term in question...as a first generation american romi myself, I've grown up with the term 'gypsy' used in both a dirogatory and complimentary way (go figure out the latter one, eh?) As an artist, Mr. Anton is understandably hurt by what he percieves as a personal attack on a product he obiviously spent an amazing amount of work and research on...I'm going to stay out of that completely since its none of of my bloody business... Oh using the term 'Gypsy' itself, I don't see it as being offensive. Bottomline, Daz3D is a business, and as such released 'Gypsies and Genies' probably after much potential marketing consideration...The name of the product in general is really evocative of exotic lands and all that jazz...I don't see the product page trying to pass it as 'authentic', although I could be wrong and if so, by all means feel free to correct me. Many, many aspects of the products are close to the real thing...festival dress anyways. Whatever, I have a domestic partner to get ready for work right now, I'll pop back on later :p -Des

Khrys also complained about the Platinum Club, so it seems to be just one member who isn't satisfied with DAZ for whatever reason. There are obviously many people here who value both your contributions and your creations Anton, and although I can understand your anger, I hope that you don't take this particular issue seriously enough to reconsider your work. Take care. SnowS

Eh???? i'm totally lost here, i'm an englishman, the bloke down the road is a scotsman, the guy in the next village living in the caravan is a Gypsy, call him an Englishman in a Caravan and he's likely to punch your lights out LOL...Steve

Hey Anton, Your stuff rocks. I purchased most of your Genie outfits. They are great and I got lots of hits on my gallery images that I posted with them. I also love cheesecake. Yours is non fattening. You keep producing. i keep buying!!!! A satisfied customer.

Gee Anton, I have no idea why Khrys is attacking you...did you try asking Khrys via email or IM?

Here are a couple of interesting articles on the Rom and on the use of the term "gypsy", written by Zana Russell who is a Romy and Shani Rifati, a Roma. They might shed some light on why there are "negative connotations" on the use of that word.

Please Call Me Rom by Shani Rifati:
http://members.aol.com/Ghaziya/rom.html

We Are Roma and Not Gypsies by Zana Russell:
http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/98-2/issue6/feature.html

I am calming down. I am getting very weary and tired. People ask for cute..I make cute..people insult it People ask for Vicki stuff...I make Vicki stuff...people insult it. People want Mike..Mike isn't ready..so they bash V3 male with put downs and insults. ANd I don't care what anyone says it rocks so :P People want a catsuit..they make a catsuit..people bash it People want complex items that do everything..I make it..and people freak out cause they don't understand it or won't spin a dial to save their life. I am over it. Done. Public opinion posts mean nothing to me anymore. I don't care about lists, opolls, or surveys. If daz orders me to make something I will but not because of some freak post demanding it. Not ever. I am no more patience left. Every other week it is some pycho off their meds demanding something. They aren't even nice. They are rude, demanding and insulting to boot. Whatever. So that's my rant.

Calm down Anton, it is only one opinion.

Ya know, why does everything one says have to be so f&*king politically correct??? It's almost as if everyone is trying to stamp out individuality in this world for Christ's sake! (Oops, did I say "Christ"? Might get flamed for that one). So what if it doesn't look like a for real...what's the word? Romani?...outfit. It looks pretty to me and it looks great on V2. And besides, I've NEVER heard the term "gypsy" used in the same context as the "n" word. Look, even I don't wanna say it. Not because it's not PC to do so (frankly, I could care less what's PC), but because it's not nice and I don't like to hurt people unnecessarily. Personally, Anton's work is some of my absolute favorites and if he would actually make something I didn't like (hasn't happened yet), I'd LEAVE IT IN THE STORE! And that would be the end of it. There are plenty of models, textures, and what have you for sale on this site and others that I wouldn't even call good free stuff. But I'd never tell anyone that because, geeze, I don't know how to do everything and I never claim to. It's not for me to say. What I don't like someone else does. Even my own stuff. Some like it. I'm sure some think it's total crap. It's all the same to me. But I'm not gonna bawl about it. I've tried to understand why people complain so much, not just here, but everywhere. Is it because we now live in a society that is becoming so secure (Sept. 11 not included) that we have nothing better to occupy our time but the little petty shit that bugs us? It's time to stop making a mountain out of little, unimportant shit and concentrate on more serious stuff. Poser might be great and Daz models may be great or not depending on your point of view, but geeze! It's not world focus, or at least it shouldn't be. Sorry, caught me on a bad day. Laurie

I like the "Gypsies and Genies" outfit myself. I think you work is innovative, respectable and sexy; all at the same time. To me, nothing wrong with fantastical clothing and as you've shown, researched. Besides, who cares whether it's historical or not - it's not even really clothing - its a mesh. I think some people live inside their Poser programs and think Vicky is a real female too.

I rather just delete all my WIP folders to be honest with you. -PheonixRising You sound like a 8 year old. You took one person's opinion and totally blew it out of proportion. Anyways, since we're on the subject, could you improve your hair textures? Yours don't seem to hold up against some of the other merchants. Don't take it personally, I would just like to see better hair quality over at Daz. Thanks!

Wading into this fray, I fear, is akin to wading into a tar pit. It is sticky, and whichever way you turn, you will get gunk all over you. But b/c I find the topic a worthy one for discuss, (and I have participated in similar ones before,)I will join in. I think it fair to say that both Khrys and Phoenix can be applauded/critiqued for their good intentions, but poor presentations. In PR's case, he was shocked to be defamed as racist and insensitive. Then afterwards, I'm sure, he felt that the Khrys' PC complaint/rant post constituted a further personal attack. And while his irritation at and suspicion of Khrys' motives are understandable, a quick review of Khys' texts reveals that (despite a perhaps too glib presentation,) he wasn't attacking either PR or DAZ in either post (well not directly, anyway.) Khrys fault, on the other hand, rests in presenting an important commentary in such an offhanded and easily misreadable manner. (The misuse of the n word will quite often inflame passions---trust me I know. The heart of Khrys statement, I suspect, lies in trying to unmask a disempower and damaging and longstanding history of negative mythologizing and exotifying groups from different races and cultures, an exotification which usu. terminates in our viewing them as dark, deadly, and dangerous. Khrys pointed out how the Romani (Gypsy---already a misnomer as Medieval Europeans used this term b/c they fancied that the Romani were charlatans, pickpockets and magicians who came from Egypt(read. that Old Testament place where evil people lived) view themselves and their own sexual/cultural mores; but the title that PR offers for the set (which I own by the way) is Gypsies and Genies, a title which openly exotifies and negatively mythologizes the Romani by explicitly comparing them to pre-Islamic demons of the air. Now, I in no way suggest that PR is deliberately trying to defame the Romani by depicting them as the scantily-clad companions of swarthy devils. However, by unreflexively pandering to the dreams and nightmares of our collective cultural fear and suspicion of the Romani and their culture (and by buying the set, I too am guilty of this) he has unwittingly provided fodder to this end. One need only read The Hunchback of Notre Dame or remember that the Nazis exterminated the Romani as well to substantiate the Western hatred/suspicion of the Romani. This, I suspect, was Khrys intention. His execution of this intention fell a bit short of this. my $.02, --lb

Zodo, Go ahead, keep pushing.

I don't understand why this thread is here... The purpose of this thread seems simply to bring the other referenced thread to everyone's attention and create much more public discussion about it all. I know neither party involved, but it seems like a matter that should be solved with civil, calm discussion in private.

Personally, I've heard gypsies refer to themselves as gyspies, just as I have heard Blacks refer to themselves as n___ (I would rather not say the full word for fear of giving more leverage to the word than it has already in this thread). Doesn't make it okay, but stating facts. Now, I have 2 points.. off topic slightly... there will always be cultural things. Me, being a Black woman, got offended by the Hip Hop collection, Brown Sugar (although a great product that I purchased), along with Black characters auto given names like Shaniqua, Lasheeshee, and so on. It is rare I see a Black character named Jennifer or Ashley, or so on. BUT I am Black, so those things that offend me, may not offend others, and may not offend another Black person. It is personal issue. The same here: Like, Gypsy may not offend me, but it may offend someone else. I've heard a lot of Hispanics refer to themselves as um, wet____, but I'd never dare to call them that because on the outside, it's an offense. You see what I am saying ? You may not understand certain things if you aren't a part of the culture. Is that making any sense ? I sure hope so. Sometimes, I can be clumsy with my words, so if I offend, I am truly sorry, forgive me ? Anton ~ You let these people get to you too easily, sweetie. You are a highly talented individual, whose artistic and product work I love. You get bothered often by comments and threads made. Shake it off. :) You're gonna encounter obstacles no matter what you do. That's life. You can't let everything nother you. Also, I didn't see Khrys' comment as an attack persay, just a statement of opinion. I think it was just quick to take offense to. Khrys paid a compliment actually... and I do agree w/Dialyn. I think it was taken out of context quickly. Ok, I am off my soapbox, although I did enjoy it :) Made me feel so tall! :)

You know we will buy it. I personally have not been one bit disappointed in anything you made. I still would like to see the diamonds for V3 tho. :)

nother should be bother.. hehe :)

Enough said.

*Ya know, why does everything one says have to be so f&king politically correct??? It's almost as if everyone is trying to stamp out individuality in this world for Christ's sake! (Oops, did I say "Christ"? Might get flamed for that one). AMEN!!! Anton, just ignore things like this. I'd hate to see you die of high blood pressure before you even turn 40 :/ Keep making those gorgeous models which we love so much and don't worry about the very few who don't appreciate what you do.

To echo Pizazz, I love everything you have made too, Anton, sweetie. As I told you before, when I get married, I want you to do my makeup LOL, and heck, design my dress too :o) You are a genius at what you do and don't let anyone deter you. And also, I would love the diamonds for V3 too :o)

For what it's worth, the Guardian's ("Guardian reading" being equivalent to "PC bleeding-heart liberal") says Gypsy is OK as long as it's capitalised. Do you think we could apply to Gen. Garner for an advance shipment of oil, troubled waters, for pouring on?

PR: Hear us: WE LOVE AND RESPECT YOUR WORK! if we compain (or rather if I compain) I respect your work no less. --lb

That's not true anton, there are others that get trashed all the time. You make good stuff. I have it, others have it. Keep going! Someone wants something else, well, there's amapi5 and TS3 out there now for free. Let 'em go make their own stuff.

I'm rather shocked at you Anton, Yes quite shocked that you'd let a troll get to you in such an extreme way. Chill out man, you've been at this game for longer than me so you should be able to ignore the idiots far better than I can. Take a day off & play with poser, hang vicky upsidedown & apply the nipple clamps or something but don't let that obvious moron get to you. And to the political Correctness brigade I say BLLCKS, you can stuff political correctness right where it won't do any more damage.

ps I love all your stuff Anton it rocks big time :)

"there's amapi5 and TS3 out there now for free. Let 'em go make their own stuff." I couldn't agree more. I mean, I couldn't do it, but that's MY problem and no one elses ;o). I could model a box ;o). But I could make DAMN nice textures for it...LOL!! Laurie

Anton I love all the stuff you did. Excellent work!

Awww, lets just all hold hands and sing a song, eh?

My partner just said.."its digital right, why the hell would culture even be an issue??" We'll continue to support daz3d and its merchants until this hobby looses its allure and something else comes along. I'm going to go render the night away...be kind to one another! An appreciative hobbyist who can't bloody model or texture anything, -Des

1. Other vendors have had negative critiques, not just you. Because DAZ releases the most stuff, and you release the most DAZ stuff, percentage-wise, there's bound to be more negative stuff about items you created than other people. Besides, most of the cutsie rants are against the toonimals, which was mostly Mallenlane's work and Koshini, which is Ladylittlefox's work, so even some of the rants you mentioned aren't about you. (And even much of the cheesecake and cutsie rants are in the "enough is enough, can we please see other subject matter in the galleries?" so those don't count, either.) 2) Like everyone else, you're going to notice posts that involve you, positive or negative, a lot more than posts about other people. There have been comments, rants, and complaints about others, but you probably didn't notice most of them because they didn't involve you. It's a normal, human reaction. 3) I think you took some of the rant too seriously. Yeah, some of us are tired to cheesecake items, and some of the stuff that comes out is a little idealized, but that doesn't reflect your artistic or modeling skill. 4) I have heard of "gypsy" being as an ethnic slur in limited areas. I think it's stupid, but some people use it that way. I'd never heard Brown Sugar used as a put-down, but apparently it is in some areas. I think Krys needs to realize that in a global market, there are terms that are acceptable in most areas but get twisted as insults in other areas. Zionist is a really good example of that. 5) Most people don't write as well as they speak. People don't realize how much of their meaning is in non-verbal cues and verbal intonations. I've seen a lot of misunderstandings that happen in written form that would never have happened if the two people had been talking, even if just over the phone. 6) Just look at the number of people trying to reassure you when something like this happens. I think that says something about the regard you're held in. Face it, you're a celebrity in the Poser world. You get a lot of benefits, but you get some extra baggage as well. I know how hard it is to take sometimes, but you can either shut off your talent and quietly go somewhere else and toil in mediocrity like most of us, or you can grow a thicker skin while continuing to make great stuff. Cres

LOL @ LaurieA! >^_^

:) I do appreciate the support. It helps. It really does and makes what I do fun and enjoyable. It is just that they odd case out is usually so nasty it gets to you. I have been compared to nazis, accused of wanting to murder someones baby(remember Laura Wagner), accused of trying to rip people off, called a liar. I get people argeeing with themselves as clones to rally suppoort for themselves. It's insane at times. I used to have the same people coming into all of my old posts saying my stuff was "over proced" just trying to badger me into lowering prices. Just manipulation. Over 7 years I only ever made 5 warez posts...just 5 over seven years. Yup thats it... only 5, but a few crazies have peole thinking I am paranoid. What about the other 100 times I never said anything? And I was right in every one and proved it. I have never been wrong or mistaken in that regards. Not even once. If I try to defend my work I have been called "paranoid", "histeronic", "unable to take criticism". I don't mind criticism but when did just plain insult slinging become considered as "criticsm". I just personally fed up with people who have an agenda but won't say what it is. It's not fair. It's mean I never see anyone else ever having their work or effort put down and insulted in the forums except mine. That does get to me after while. It's not fair. I paid my dues. I don't deserve it..noone does. There is a double standard and it upsets me. I always answer questions and try to help other merchants yet I get these blackmail posts like: "Can I sue Daz", "The truth about Anton", etc It sickens me. It is easy to say shrug it off if it isn't you. I am just really tired of it. FOr whatever reasons people do it it is wrong. I have made freebies, I have done tutorials too, I offered advice to merchants here. And I have never lied to anyone even if it isn't what they wanted to hear. If it was just one person it would be awesome. But when you get it from multiple people it wears on your nerves. I see nothing flattering in what Khrys had to say. It was just a nasty stab coated in sugar. Not wanting to be insulted doesn't make you sensitive. The worst part is that this seems normal now and acceptable. years ago people never used posts to get what they wanted. Okay, going to stop work this weekend and go to the movies. :) Mybe I will rent the Disney movie and count the references to Gypsies.

I don't like to see people who I admire being victimised & yes I've done my fair share of the victimising in the past which I'm not overly proud of. My only agenda right now is to hopefully convince you Anton that it's a very small minority of the people who come here that really want to sling insults about. Most of us just want to see what you make next & maybe get to play with it :)

Crescent, crosspost. I went back and looked for typos. My post should be above hers. :) lol. Ok looking for alligator skin on the internet right now. I'll let you know when the suit is ready. :) C1rcle, I'll be fine after a few days. The "n" thing and research comment really upset me.

Just so long as you remember you have fans out here in poserland you'll be ok ;) Also the "n" thing as you put it just proves the person who first mentioned it is a racist themselves, it's about time people realised it's not just us wasp's who can be racists.

LaurieA said 'I've tried to understand why people complain so much, not just here, but everywhere' Laurie, it's the ME generation. Except it ain't just a generation now, it's the whole damned world! Everybody nowadays thinks the universe centers around their own butt. "Life is a movie and I'm the big star" seems to be the way a lot of people think. 'I saw a little lawyer, on the tube, He said "It's oh-so easy now, anyone can sue. Let me show you how your petty aggravations can profit you...." (Joni Mitchell) That just about sums it up for me. And as for political correctness.... I'm Scottish and I LOVE jokes about the Scots. If you can't laugh at yourself, forget it! PC-ness used to be known as good manners. mac PS Anton - None of this is directed at you.... just the human race in general.

Jesus Christ! (oops, can't say that without the possibility of offending someone...henceforth abbreviated to: CSTWTPOOS). People (CSTWTPOOS), errr, humans (oops, CSTWTPOOS, it has "man" in it). I should start again. Homo sapiens (Darn! CSTWTPOOS, has the letters, "homo" in it). OK, upright-walking sentient beings (hopefully not offending PETA's interests) need to get a grip! No (apologize for the use of a negative word), they need to come up for AIR once in a while. When did everyone become so thin-skinned (apologies to those creatures having no skin, those people whose skin is thick, those whose skin is a different color, and those whose skin has blemishes, has been burned, or otherwise different from the skin of others)? Isn't there a lot more to be concerned with in this world (apologies to those from other worlds) than petty references and conotations (no insult intended for cons who are taking notations)? Let's see (CSTWTPOOS, hmmm, some people can't see). Let me rephrase. Handicapped. NO! The word should be, "handi-capable". NO! That is passe' (no insult to the French, hopefully). How about, "disabled"? Hmmmm...perhaps that word is acceptable now. But for how long? Or, perhaps I am just behind the times. Maybe there already is another word and using "disabled" is an incredible insult now. I'm an ugly (handsome-impaired), skinny (substitute appropriate politically-correct term if you must), balding (folicaly-impaired), old (mature) man (CSTWTPOOS...errr, person...oops, there are those pesky letters, "s-o-n") who is sometimes opinionated. And sometimes, wrong. But, until having an opinion and being able to express it also becomes too offensive to continue its practice, I will do so. Learn (apologies to the learning-impaired) to understand when an upright-walking sentient being (walking on the edge here, I know) says something in a derogatory mannner and when it's intended to be an insult! I don't think Anton had ANY intentions of insulting anyone with his message/suggestion to take a look at his "Gypsy/Genie" work. He was just trying to be helpful. I talked with him at Dragon*Con (no insult to cons) and it seems he spends every waking moment in model design. He researches much more than I would have ever thought. I'm not even sure he has any time left for a social life. And a lot of his work is for sale at an incredibly LOW price! Sheesh! (There! "Sheesh" might not offend anyone)

This whole thread proves that the old adage still holds true: "You can please some people some of the time, but not all people all of the time."

Chuck, Sorry! Can't use "Sheesh" either. It's a shortening of "Jesus!" ....You a G@d-d@$n religious freak or something? Words do matter, just not all the time. --lb