There's a forum starting up at yahoo groups on Christian / Biblical 3d art. I was thinking about setting up a web site for the same, but thought I'd suggest it here first since this is a preferred place for 3d art. Seems that the subject is very offensive to folks here because the few Biblical art renders that have been posted seem to be the subject of some very nasty comments. Anyone that is terribly offended at this need simply not visit the forum/gallery. Anyway, I think there's a great deal of imagery in the Bible that can be rendered if one is willing to work a bit. Certainly, there is a lot of Biblical art in historical traditional work that has found its way into the Louve and other fine places. I'm thinking that the forum and gallery should be for the subject, not the program, so any program that was used, be it 2d or 3d works. Whadda ya think?

Sounds good to me!

I for one would love to see a Religious art forum that was non denominational.a if it's prodomenantly christian art that will show up that's fine by me, but I'd like to see Islamic, Buhdist, hindu art as well. there are fabulious artists out there and I'd like to see what they do, but I think if it's only biblical it would be secular.

Maybe have a religious forum with Christian, Boudist, Islamic, Hindu, etc. sub-forums (not sure they do those here)? Would something like that work?

I agree that there are many who do Biblical imagry who are not Christian. Jewish art can do wonders with the Old Testament for example. However, you'll probably find that Bible artists and artists of other religions don't mix well. You'll find in history that there are many great painters who had differing personal views yet used the same book for their inspiration. That's why I suggested a Biblical art forum/gallery. Anyway, its a suggestion and all ideas are welcome as always.

Anyone that is terribly offended at this need simply not visit the forum/gallery. I for one think this would be a great idea, but Im sure a few unhappy people would indeed come in just to flame.. sigh Now the sub-forums/sub galleries might work, but still you will have those few people that will get offended no matter what you do. anything to do with the bible, gets people riled it seems, whereas other religions don't quite offend as much I don't see why this couldn't be included tho, as biblical art is indeed in many fine art museums..and I see no reason why we cant have a gallery/'s and forum/'s here..without being afraid of being bashed for it.. ~Jani :)

That would be really nice. Sharen

I agree that the focus seems a bit too narrow, if this idea gets off the ground. However, a forum on religious art would be interesting. But I suspect, having spent a lot of my life drifting from island to island of this religion and that and trying to find a place where people who differ about gods play nice, that it would degenerate quickly into a contentious, squabbling pit. A secondary problem that worries me is that there is a difference between believer art and the two kinds of non-believer art: debunking and sympathetic. Believer art can be gorgeous or gorgeously silly, and one puts up with the dewy-eyed Aryan Jesus while looking for the occasional El Greco. But would the forum exclude art that attacked a religious view? By that I mean both the obvious (to Christians) anti-clerical stuff and the less obvious depictions of, say, Aztec ceremonies as murderous sex orgies. How about art that took at unorthodox look at religion--as a simple example, a picture of Jesus and John the Beloved that depicted them as lovers, a picture of Moses that made him look like Mel Brooks, or Our Lady of Guadalupe in a bikini? For me the most unwelcome images would be those that patronize, sentimentalize, and appropriate the religions and religious imagery of other, usually minority, groups. Pictures of the White Buffalo Woman, Spider Grandmother, Monster Slayer, and Deganawida, even pictures of Crazy Horse, Tecumseh, and Pope', created by non-Indians with a non-Indian agenda are a great example of this. Pictures of fake Navajo sand paintings and fake Hopi kachinas are another. There is a word for it in American Indian intellectual communities: appropriation. Folks with a simpler way of looking at things say, "First you stole our land, now you steal our religions?" On the whole, I think the potential for offensiveness--intentional and not--is huge.

I'll confirm what I said at the other post: I support the idea :)

EricofSD there is already a catagory for posting religious/spiritual images.
The few Biblical art renders i have seen here had MORE positive statements in them than negitive ones. As a whole most of us supported them and said nice things about them even though 2 of them were a TOS violation . "Violence" means any depiction of bodily injury to a humanoid model, or any part thereof, or placing a humanoid model in threat of fear of imminent physical harm " I would say Jesus on a cross falls into that catagory but hey thats just my personal opinion.

"there is a lot of Biblical art in historical traditional work that has found its way into the Louve and other fine places."
Again most biblical art i have seen in these places you mentioned fall under a violence catagory. I personaly would love to see renders of "the song of songs" but i dought that would be the trend, just more of the same pain and suffering . This is not a slam againt you , your idea is fine but i think it would end up like the political catagory did with lots of heated debates and trolling.

Quote: i think it would end up like the political catagory did with lots of heated debates and trolling.

I concur, and while I would look in on the forum occasionally, once that started, I'd lose interest. M

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=1234712

I suppose I'll toss in my two cents, although having not worked in close to a year it is about all I have...two cents... While I agree that the sense of community that a biblical art forum could create would be nice, I have a smallish struggle with taking the inspirational works of christian artists and putting them up in a "walled" gallery that by its very nature would keep some folks away...folks who might need that inspiration. While I am sympathetic to the cause...I'm not a big fan of "preaching to the choir." I think I'd rather have my stuff out there where it might be stumbled upon without a pre-set reason for predjudice. Just my thought of the moment...

A religious forum will be a flame hole..and we don't need any more of those.

Yeah, I see where everybody's coming from now, It probably wouldn't work out unless there were different forums for everyone and that would be really hard to do.

Well, from what the staff keeps saying, bandwidth isnt a problem, so it shouldn't be too hard to incorporate several different forums/galleries..it would however require some serious thinking to pull it off smoothly. As for it being a flame hole, why should it be any more of a flame hole than any other forum here..mainly the OT Forum. We have everything imaginable here being defined as art, so why should a religious gallery be any different? Now given the TOS here regarding torture, I agree many would have to curb that..but there are many, many more things that can be done besides that..angels,heaven,dipictions of hell without human forms be hard pressed to do that I know...and several other ways... The forums can be moderated just as all the other forums are, with warnings and bannings for repeat offenders and trolls...I still say it could work... ~Jani :)

...and the mod would spend most of his/her time deleting flames because, sadly, a lot of people would post there just to cause trouble.

It could work if people behaved in a civilised way, and were constructive in their imput...but what are the chances of that happening?

It's not about bandwith. It is about creating a religious forum on an art site...and giving preference to one religion over another.

There is precedent. There are forums that have nothing to do with specific applications, "virtual tavern", "gaming graphics", "Macintosh" - and if those folks aren't religious I don't know who is...some of these forums have to do with art applied to something....art for games, art for the web etc... As to "giving preference" that would not be the case as long as any group that expressed interest was granted the same opportunity. At the moment, the group happens to have a bilical focus. I'd be willing to wager that if a group of Hindu's were first to ask there would be less flak. I still would encourage those Christian brothers and sisters who are here to post their work where it can be seen outside the fortress. A forum might be nice, but better to be "in the world and not of it."

It is about creating a religious forum on an art site We're not trying to start a religious forum here, but would like a place to post artwork that pertains to the various religious beliefs, and a place to discuss it. All religions have expressed their beliefs thru artwork. And this IS an art site, therefore it should be open to religious artwork as well as any other artwork that is already here. As for preferences, I would most likely post in the christian/biblical galleries and forums, whereas others of different beliefs would have the same opportunity to post in their own chosen galleries/forums. Thats why we asked for subs. As Grim said, we COULD make this work, if we all control ourselves and act like civilized human beings. we already know there are trolls out there who love nothing better than to try and bring any and everyone down, we just have to be bigger than that and not stoop to that level. ;) I agree that the mod would indeed be overworked by deleting to begin with most likely, but after the new wears off, I think it would work out alright..

And this IS an art site, therefore it should be open to religious artwork as well as any other artwork that is already here It already is open to religious images, and plenty of them crop up. The point here is that there's a request for a forum based around a particular subject matter. All the other forums are based on software (e.g. Poser, Bryce) or topic (e.g. animation, HTML). Starting forums based around subject matter is not something that the PTB seem prepared to get into, and who can blame them? Think of the precedent it would create. Sci-fi, fantasy, faeries, mythical creatures, architecture, gothic and horror, historical and medieval, abstract and surreal, combat and weapons, 'glamour' (ahem), portraits, nature and landscape: all of those subjects would be way higher on the list if R'osity went down the road of subject matter forums. Why? Because all of them are much more frequently depicted in the galleries. As a measure of interest, that seems a reasonable yardstick. If you consider the long-term effects of this request, you're asking the PTB to begin re-organising the entire site around a completely different paradigm - subject matter. That's not going to happen while software companies sponsor the site. Another problem is that there is no possible way that the forum would stick to debating the images. The whole thing would be off into doctrinal debate in no time, and there's already a place for that: OT. And can you imagine trying to keep the discussions on track? Member 1: "I'll render the Holy Ghost attending the Council of Trent any damn way I please!" Member 2: "Burn, heretic!" Mod: "Please stick to discussing the images." Members: "Freedom of speech! Discrimination on religious grounds!" Lastly, opening a religious discussion forum on an art site just as Western politicians are brewing a Cold War against the Islamic world - sound inviting? It's easy enough to say "It'll work if everyone behaves well," but we all know that won't happen. Nor should it. It's foolish and willfully naive to think that people are going to have polite, neutral conversations about the beliefs by which they live their entire lives. People get angry about these subjects because these subjects matter. That's the way the world is supposed to be. That's a good thing for the human spirit but a crashing disaster for a moderator's chances of getting a wink of sleep at night ;-)

As one who used to moderate a forum that was open to all religious and spiritual views and belief systems, trust me ... in spite of your good intentions, it will be a bear to moderate and keep calm. Religion and politics are passionate topics, primarily because every one of us have different feelings about both of them. And, of course, we are always right. 8-) I think the religious/spiritual gallery is probably the best place for the art ... I've posted there, and accept that there are people whose feelings and ideas differ from mine and if they have a bad day and have to vent about a piece of art, I let them. LOL

I agree with Deecey. I also used to moderate another site and religious suggestions that started with the best of intentions were flamed and heated discussions arose. The trend, unforunately, from personal experience, is that there will never be an agreement on this. Your best bet is to post in the religious/spiritual gallery.

Sci-fi, fantasy, faeries, mythical creatures, architecture, gothic and horror, historical and medieval, abstract and surreal, combat and weapons, 'glamour' (ahem), portraits, nature and landscape Ummm...wasnt there a thread about this sort of things earlier? Something to the effect of people wanting these or some of these very things, and they got it? All the other forums are based on software (e.g. Poser, Bryce) or topic (e.g. animation, HTML) Right. topic/subject matter...same thing. And as Claymor stated: There are forums that have nothing to do with specific applications, "virtual tavern", "gaming graphics", "Macintosh" - and if those folks aren't religious I don't know who is...some of these forums have to do with art applied to something....art for games, art for the web etc... Why do we need a 'Virtual Tavern when we have OT? We have even got a stuff for comics, writers, printing, magazines...these have nothing to do with specific programs.. Regardless, it just strikes me with awe, that everyone is acting like this is the worst possible thing that could happen to 'Rosity...its not.

....."Sci-fi, fantasy, faeries, mythical creatures, architecture, gothic and horror, historical and medieval, abstract and surreal, combat and weapons, 'glamour' (ahem), portraits, nature and landscape Ummm...wasnt there a thread about this sort of things earlier? Something to the effect of people wanting these or some of these very things, and they got it? ....." But these are galleries, not forums. Another reason for categorizing the galleries further was to help narrow down the focus on the massive number of images that you have to browse through each day. "We have even got a stuff for comics, writers, printing, magazines...these have nothing to do with specific programs" The list of forums here is already enormous ... but the above listed forums that you list as not related to a specific application are related to the art/media industry as a whole. Art is used in comics, art is used in books, printing, magazines, etc. The difference here is that religious/spiritual art is an art GENRE ... just like Sci-fi, or fantasy, or mythical creatures, or architecture (and the others you listed). By your reasoning, if a forum is created to discuss biblical art, then maybe we should also have forums to discuss sci fi, or fantasy, or faeries, or mythical creatures. I am not an anti-religious person ... take a look at my gallery and you will see that. 8-) However, I do see the point that people are trying to make here.

Right. topic/subject matter...same thing Not the same thing at all, Jani. The Topic forums here are the non-software ones (see the side menu). Religious/spiritual art isn't a topic in the same sense. It's subject matter; what the picture's about not how the picture was made. None of the Topic Forums are dedicated to a single artistic subject. Something to the effect of people wanting these or some of these very things, and they got it? And we got the exact same thing for religious/spiritual art: a genre. That's already been achieved. None of those subjects got a forum to itself though. And no, I don't think this would be the worst thing that could happen to Renderosity. Which posts did you have in mind when you made that remark?

Cambert: If you read the posts again, here and in the Poser forum you will see several people that definately do not want any sort of christian forum here at all..they don't say no to religious forums mind you, just no to christian ones. Those are the posts Im refering to.. Sure, anyone can post their opinions about their beliefs in OT, but if it has anything to do with christianity, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will get flamed. No other topic on this site gets such hateful comments towards the posters as this one does.. I would at least like a place here, mind you..I shouldn't be told to 'go somewhere else where I can post my opinions about my beliefs without worrying about who is not going to agree with it. There could be rules set in place for trolls, and others who would come into the forum just to flame..just as there are other rules around here.. The reason that nobody is asking for forums for their own images galleries, is the very fact that they can talk about it freely without these worries anywhere they choose.. I dont put others down about what they believe, even if I dont believe as they do, and feel that I should not be subjected to flames from others because they dont like what I believe in. I find myself having to defend my religious beliefs however, all the time, when this topic comes up..and in turn get flamed for that too. Several threads have mockeries in them, or blasphemies not today, but in the archives that shouldn't have been allowed..and I feel that it could have been prevented if there were just a place to post these topics, with specific rules about flaming ones beliefs..mainly christian beliefs..as this is the one that gets people riled the most. I think Claymore stated it pretty good up above: At the moment, the group happens to have a bilical focus. I'd be willing to wager that if a group of Hindu's were first to ask there would be less flak. I still do not see what the big deal is about the christians having a place to talk about their work. If other people with different beliefs want one too, let them have it. Im not against that, so Im wondering why several people are so against a forum for those of us who want a christian forum..this thread was started by asking for a biblical ART forum..the ones who are in agreement, know why it was asked for, and the ones who are dead set against it, could care less about why it is wanted/needed...they are happy with the way things are, and dont want any changes..no matter who's freedom of expression it constricts. ~Jani

Jani, it's ironic that you end with the phrase no matter who's freedom of expression it constricts when, a little earlier in your post, you say Several threads have mockeries in them, or blasphemies not today, but in the archives that shouldn't have been allowed. If you want real freedom of expression, not just selective niceness to people, then there is no place where I can post my opinions about my beliefs without worrying about who is not going to agree with it. How could there be?

You say you agree with Claymor's comment, I'd be willing to wager that if a group of Hindu's were first to ask there would be less flak. I can't answer for anyone else but I've made sure that my comments here refer to a religious/spiritual forum, not to christianity, as have quite a lot of other people. (I didn't realise there was the same debate in the Poser Forum, and I'm not planning on going there; life's too short). The reason I've kept my comments broad is because I would object to R'osity altering its focus to privilege any belief system (religious, political, whatever, including my own) over any other subject matter. Perceptions of this place would very quickly change: "Renderosity's that religious art site, isn't it?" The focus here needs to remain on art, not subject matter, in fact it's a small sub-category - 3D art. It would be very easy to skew that focus, and to privilege one very emotive theme could do just that. I find it strange how you can recognise that christianity is such a hot topic, and yet fail to see the most likely outcome of giving that hot topic such a prominent place in the site organisation. Don't you see the contradiction there? Or are you imagining that creating a forum to discuss christian art would somehow make those flame-wars you mention less likely to happen? As you said, if it has anything to do with christianity, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will get flamed.

There are good reasons why that's the case, and here I'm going to address christianity directly, rather than the subject of religion/spirituality. I'm not a christian but I live in a notionally christian country. The head of my state is also the head of the church. The prime minister of my country is a professed christian and has spoken openly about the fact that his beliefs affect the way he does his job. I went to a christian school and was required to attend church all through my childhood. So religion, and christianity in particular, affects the way I live my life. It affects the laws and social norms that govern my behaviour. The christian hold over the legislative process in this country, for instance, meant that I couldn't legally have sex until I was 21 years old. Believe me, that would have been a serious problem had I obeyed the law; as it was, I put myself and others at risk of prosecution. Even as a non-believer, you see, I have reason to engage with christianity: it affects, and sometimes threatens, my interests.
I therefore reserve my right to object to anything that you or anyone else believes in. I also reserve the right to do so in robust terms, whether you like it or not - that bit is your problem. Anything that stays within the TOS is fair game around here, and if you can't cope with the hairier end of that spectrum, you're also free to withhold your expression. Which do you want, Jani - 'freedom to' or 'freedom from'?

Regardless of any of our wishes, in reality a religious art forum would end up discussing religion more than art, and it would quickly become half prayer-group and half flame-pit. In other words, a sub-forum of OT on a specialised subject. Anything else would be (a) a pipe dream and (b) a violation of free speech. Easier, don't you think, for the PTB to simply not go down that road in the first place?

Man we are only garunteed freedom of religion, religous expression, and speech if we are none christians. Living in the states you should know this by now Eric. Although Personally I would like to see your suggestion too. I dont know about the rest of the artists here, but I for one would like to be able to find a place where I could go and ask other artists how they did this or that with an image of the saviour etc... things in the world today being what they are however I wont hold my breath. You shouldnt either Eric. God bless

We would be happy to show you how to make the blood more realistic looking. Or the correct placement of the nails . You know most artist get it wrong. It goes in the wrist other wise the hand tears right up the middle. We have some pretty good tricks for making a halo glow just right. All you have to do is ask and many people would be more than happy to help you. Your only excluded if you make the choise to be. Kadoish, Kadoish, Kadoish Adonai Tzebaoth Eck Ong Kar Sat Nam Siri Wha Guru

Man we are only garunteed freedom of religion, religous expression, and speech if we are none christians And here come the cheap racist insinuations. Wondered how long it would take before the thread descended to that level.

It is not my intent to start a religious battle here, and I bring this up with all due respect to both sides of this argument. I am confused as to what makes Biblical art any different than any other type of art, and why a forum is needed for this above any other type of art genre forum. The techniques to create Biblical art are the same as for any other type of art ... so basically, what is desired is a place to discuss the interpretation of the art. But herein lies the problem ... each of us interprets things differently. As an extreme example, one person might see Jesus ascending to heaven in a cloud, surrounded by angels and with Moses and Abraham waiting for him in the heavens. But a less dogmatic interpretation might show Jesus being beamed up in a UFO, and all different types of alien beings waiting for his arrival. There are those who would consider the latter interpretation sacreligous and offensive, but in the artist's mind, he/she sees it as a plausible explanation as to how it may have taken place. In cases such as that, where artistic interpretation differs, how will the threads progress? If there is this much dissention over creating the forum, how much will there be while running it?

There is a genre called Religious/Spirtual. We have no plans for launching a Religious Forum at this time. thanks tammy

Yeah! How do you make blood look like its splattered in poser4? there a special prop or something? Originally posted by Cambert "And here come the cheap racist insinuations. Wondered how long it would take before the thread descended to that level." Who mentioned race Cambert? YOU DID :)

Attached Link: WARNING **** BLOOD AND GORE ***

Thanks tasquah, I dont have eye candy, where can I get the tut from devian designs?

the warning label on my last post is a link to the tutorial je_kuthiel.

Oh ok, duh I should have seen that! tasquah Thanks again!

je-kuthiel, I pointed out your complaint that christians have no freedom of religious speech and its corollary that people of other religions do. Aside from that being complete nonsense (have you read this thread? Noticed any lack of freedom of expression here?), your comment was one of the standard variations on the theme of "All these foreign religions get to say what they like and us poor normal folks don't get to call them names no more." I've heard it a thousand times and it's just the same tired old racism in different clothes. BTW, it was me that mentioned race first. Like I said, you insinuated it. Look it up.