Im not 100% on this. Let say i make a web site and in my intro page there is a image i made in poser and used it as my start page. Is the ok? What can i and cant i do in terms of Commercial and Non-Commercial use?

It really depends on who made the item and what their personal interpretation of commercial use is. Some people regard competition entries to be commercial usage, most don't. Most people consider use in store advertising pictures to be a commercial usage but not everybody does, etc. Pretty much everybody agrees that any render you get paid to make is commercial and posting a render in the Renderosity galleries without the intention of advertising something is non-commercial, but for anything else you really need to ask the author whether the usage you have in mind is OK.

Nobody really knows... or rather, everyone typically has a slightly different variation on their intent when they use that checkbox. If its not spelled out in the readme then you have to contact each author to actually get specific clarification.

Well, you don't HAVE to, but it would be considered polite ...

Here's my definition (taken from my upcoming pack). 'In plain english, you can make as much money as you can get away with from your own pictures, but not off my files' This is the plain English translation of the legalese, which more or less says 'Use the products for commercial or non-commercial RENDERS, but don't sell or re-distribute the files' In my opinion, a render would be your own work. The geometry and textures, etc. were my work, so I don't want you making dough from them. But, of course, it varies from merchant to merchant. Some people seem to think that even your render should be classed as their property. Misguided, if you ask me. mac

What I look for are things that allow me to use my rendered images in a commercial project. My sister and I make bookmarks, note cards, calendars, and art prints, using Poser, Bryce, Vue d'Esprit, and the registered version of Terragen, as well as Photoshop Elements and PSP. I only look for and download items that say they are for commercial use only. When I find something that I need or would like to use, which doesn't indicate that, I've written to the artist. In every case except only one (and I believe the only reason the one didn't is because their PSP tubes might not be their own creation), I've gotten permission to use them. In my case, I have no need to redistribute meshes, I only do rendered artwork on glossy photo paper and laminate them. I've also written a very small production novel in which I used Bryce for the cover art. That's considered a commercial use because the novel is being sold. So, that's what I look for when I see the words "commercial use" on a product. If the readme is vague, I e-mail the artist and ask for clarification and permission if needed. Melanie

For the most part I steer away from anything says For Non-Commercial use only. However if its something I really need then Ill ask the artist for permission. Its not that Im making a lot of money from the stuff Im creating. But if I do commercial work and I dont want worry about I can and can not use in my renders.

"If its not spelled out in the readme then you have to contact each author to actually get specific clarification." I think the authors should bear some responsibility themselves and make their readme's clear.

Just for the record: ALL my stuff are free to use in any commercial renderings or animations :o) I don't really understand the people who WON'T allow their stuff to be used commercially. If you don't want your freebies being used commercially, then SELL them or don't release them at all. but that's just me. On the other hand noone forces you to download anything :o) So if you don't feel you can legally use it, just let it be.

At the risk of stating the obvious, it would really be nice if there were some standard that everyone agreed to. I know, dream on. I agree that giving something away and then wanting to restrict it seem a little odd. Anyone who remembers the case of the Egyptian column knows just how odd it casn get.

Especially when it's a preset. Like a Bryce sky or a fc2 file with only dial twitching (no extra morphs). These can't be legally restricted anyway AFAIK.

'I think the authors should bear some responsibility themselves and make their readme's clear' I disagree. I think the authors should bear ALL the responsibilty for making their readmes clear. After all, if they sell it, they should spell out what you can and can't do. Why should people have to e-mail them to ask? 'it would really be nice if there were some standard that everyone agreed to' Absolutely. The problem is not so much for established merchants, who should already know what to say and how to phrase it. It's more for people giving away or selling their first item. It would be nice if Renderosity or DAZ, or anyway, somone in a position of authority, could make some kind of basic template that people could use to state what the stuff can be used for. But as you said, 'dream on' mac

maclean I think you're missing a point here: MERCHANTS do indeed have a common read me standard here. ALL you buy in the marketplace here are free for commercial use. The point is that not all FREE STUFF is. As I said, all my stuff is free for commercial use, but to DEMAND a standardized read me from people who GIVE AWAY stuff? People who in some occations can barely speak and understand english? But who still want to be kind and GIVE you free stuff. I think it's harsh enough with this new approvement for Free Stuff. Granted it works fast and smooth most of the time but honestly I had a period wher I didn't WANT to put anything in free stuff becourse of that. I give away stuff and I don't want to be seen as a possible criminal who needs investigation when I do so. Oh I AM aware of the instances where people gave away rip-offs and such, it's just this whole BigBrother thing I don't like. Again, I don't see why some people want to place restrictions on their free stuff, but they have every right to do so if they want. It's THEIR stuff. EVEN if they generously permits you to use it. I keep hearing that this place was founded on free stuff. Now I've only been here in a little over a year, but Free Stuff was the REASON why I found this place at all. With more and more hoops for free stuff providers jump through here I can't blame some of them for finding other places to post.

Everyone comes from a different culture and upbringing, and thus has different expectations. What is acceptable to one person is unthinkable to another. What is automatic to one person may be insulting to another. That doesn't make either right or wrong. There isn't necessarily an ulterior motive, just a different paradigm. Be polite, and if in doubt, ask and make sure. You may make a friend or learn something in the processes.

"I don't really understand the people who WON'T allow their stuff to be used commercially." I agree. When I used to have a freebie site, I made all of my stuff completely unrestricted and allowed commercial use. I feel it's my contribution to give back to the community I've received things from over the years. I know how it feels to look for things that are allowed for commercial use. I sometimes see something that is just perfect for what I need, and then find out that I can't use it. Very disappointing. I'm very appreciative of the folks who give freely without restrictions. If I can ever get the time to reconstruct my freebies on my website, I'll have them up again. I had a pretty nice selection of rather simple items at one time, but the TopCities shut me down becuase of bandwidth. Now, I have a new site and if I can get enough time and energy to do it, I'll put it back up. Of course, it'll be free for commercial and noncommercial use, as it had been before. :) Melanie

Ultimately it all boils down to copyright law. There IS a common standard, and it's what is backed up by law. I make a mesh, that mesh is my copyright. You can't distribute it without my permission. You make a picture, that picture is your copyright. You can do what you like with it. That's the bedrock common standard.

Copyright doesn't cover only distribution. It also covers public display.

Yes, but you can't 'display' a mesh. Display would mean putting it on a website for public download.

I don't think so. Putting it up for public download would be distribution, I think. And, by my dictionary, any 3D program displays a mesh. Then we get into contract law. If the license says you can't use it for profit and that you must abide by the license if you're going to use it, then copyright doesn't get you around that. Using it joins you into a contract with terms that must be followed. Of course, that's assuming that EULAs are legally binding contracts, which last I heard had not been decided for or against by a court of law. It was up for dispute, at least in principle. Maybe that's gone through, I don't know. Then again, at the same time, unless this has come up in a court of law, it's completely undecided anyway. Copyright law is vague. Not even the lawyers or judges really understand it. The only way to really figure out if something is covered by it or not is to take it through the court system and thus establish a legal precedent. Until then, we're just a bunch of armchair quarterbacks arguing over whether the mesh is the exact 3D coordinates or the distinct shape that they describe. See where I'm going here? We can all debate theoreticals -- hell, it's kinda fun as long as everyone plays nice. But really, there isn't just an easy, set and single correct answer. Copyright may or may not cover it, and even if it does, there's contract law to consider as well. I suspect that would side with the freebie provider, since the "payment" for their "product" is obedience to the terms of service. Under that, if it isn't an illegal condition, then it's binding. They could have you do the hokey-pokey and turn yourself around in order to use it if they wanted. Hmm, I might just have to put that in a read-me for kicks sometime. ::Mind reels at the thought of hundreds... well, dozens... well, two Poser users doing the hokey-pokey for a freebie.:: Theoreticals and principles aside, it seems to me that what matters is: 1) The freebie author's definition of "commercial". 2) The freebie author's grouchy factor and ability to press the issue.

"Just for the record: ALL my stuff are free to use in any commercial renderings or animations :o)" And I thank you and all the other generous free stuff providers! If I ever get my @$%! together enough to make my movie it will be you people who make it possible for me, (a fairly untalented modeller, and totally hopeless texturer) to pursue my dream of making quality animation, by myself, without taking years and years of my life. :D (I also thank all the merchants who provide so much quality for a reasonable price. :D

I definitely agree that we shouldn't do anything to discourage people from giving thing away but I keep thinking that there needs to be way to make intentions clear without playing email tag for every item. The main problem seems to be the ambiguity, the non-commercial but ask me and I might let you cases. Instead of that, there should just be three choices, unrestricted, non-commercial only, and a commercial use fee clearly systed. The logistics of payment could be a problem, especially for those living overseas. Since no one's going to make a fortune off this to begin with, then perhaps all the fees could be paid to Renderosity which would in turn donate the money to charity, minus any extra adminstrative costs. R'osity could even email the creator saying X paid to use your item Y. Hopefully, people could even agree on a common ammount. OK, it's a bum idea but Hey, I'm only a muggle :-)

Since some of you in here are giving thanks to folks, I would like to put my two cents worth in and thank Mr. Kozaburo, who has only recently opened his wonderful things up for commercial use without his written consent. I had noticed his readme change, so I contacted him and asked him for clarification and he told me that he had such a HUGE volume of requsts to use his stuff for commercial projects that he finally just decided to change his policy. What a guy! The fact that his exceptionally high quality work was being given away for free in the first place is a godsend to all of us, but now he's even giving us consent for commercial use. He should be an example to all of us here. Why hasn't DAZ snapped him up yet? ;) But as you can see, I still felt I needed his clarification, just to be sure, so I wrote to him to find out, and he was very gracious to reply and let me know. And I would also like to thank all the other wonderful folks who are so generous and sharing to give unlimited use of their things for those of us who are trying to make an extra penny. One day, I'll be able to give something back. If I ever get rich and famous, I'm taking everyone out to dinner. :) I really think that's what this community should be all about: helping each other in one way or another. Melanie

Amen, melanie. To me, Kozaburo personifies the true spirit of what a community should be about. He could make a fortune off his hair even if he only charged $5 per style. He's a real prince. Ernyoka, Maybe I didn't explain myself very well. I wasn't suggesting any kind of 'Big Brother' scenario (something I hate too). I just think it would be helpful to a lot of newbies if there were some kind of template to work from. And by template, I mean guidelines, not a rigid legal document. The problem is, with so many people contributing from all around the world, a lot of people, especially those who don't speak English as a first language, probably don't know how to phrase what they want to say as regards restrictions. This often leads to unnecessary incomprehension and e-mails for clarification. If there was a rough draft available covering the various possible ways to phrase it, it might help a lot of folks. That's all, No BB stuff. We have enough of that already from the governments. mac

OK I guess I know that wasn't what you meant. Problemis I too amone of these foreingers who haven't got english as my native language ;o) Does that excuse me? Just a little? :o) I see a great advantage in a standard read me, what I opposed was the apparent CRAVING of such. Also while I'm not sure, I guess copyright laws are if not different in nature than interpreted differently througout the world. Question is: If I, a dane, upload something to an american server and a japanese user downloads it, what copyright law is the one that is "active"? Danish? American? Japanese? Again I don't even know IF they differ, but say they do... Oh the joy of internationalization :o) I am soo loking forward to the Universal Translator ;o)

Yeah, I know you're Danish, ernyoka, so I forgive you. LOL. I don't think there's any desparate NEED for a copyright template. It might just help a little if DAZ or somebody gave guidelines to help people say what they want to in some semi-legal way that makes it clear to everyone. I'm scottish and I don't understand legalese, so heaven help someone in peru or somewhere! In all the free stuff I made, I never even mentioned usage. I didn't give a s*%t and I couldn't be bothered trying to figure out what to say. so I just ignored it. I still get mails occasionally and I always say 'Do what you like'. If there had been some document to work from, I would have probably used it as a basis and people wouldn't need to ask me. But you're right. This whole international copyright thing is so vague. No wonder people don't understand it. mac

Thanks guys and gals. I think from what i learned here that its best to fully read the readme and to ask the author too just in case.

Oooooh! I had no idea Kozaburo changed his policy! I will definately be using a lot of his hair in my project along with Maya's. ^_^ Happy! happy!

A lot of good points made above. I also do not want to be bothered with people asking me for permission for using my freestuff, so I make it very clear in the readme that you don't have to ask. As Fyrespirit so rightly says, all this stuff has never been tested in law so we are arguing in the dark. I maintain I do not have a contract with any freestuff provider, so contract law goes out the window. Just because someone SAYS "by downloading this you agree that ..." doesn't make it so. I could say "by reading this post you agree that ...". It's a futile debate.

FYI Not all of Kozaburo's stuff is free for commercial renders without written permission. His new stuff like: "Wave Hair','Koz's PonyTail Hair','Koz's Updo','Long Hair','Messy Hair" are free to use, but you still need to ask him for his older stuff like Rei Hair, and Kyoko Hair etc... because they are collaborations, and he doesn't have the authority to give blanket permission from the co-authors for those items.