Well, its happened to me again. I saved a bunch of program updates and other stuff I wanted to backup on a CD, which is how I always store/backup my stuff...including all the free downloads, and all my purchased items from here, DAZ, RDNA, etc etc.... This particular CD was burned on 1 November 2000, so a bit ago... slapped that baby into my CD to find an update for an older program..and ERROR: The disk structure is corrupted and unreadable. So, all that stuff is history. Now, 1 CD isn't too bad, but this isn't the first...including some fairly recent burns...I lost most of my P4 stuff purchased form DAZ as well...a very expensive loss.... What the hell is going on with these CDs...how long should they last? Why are they becoming corrupted? Can I sue someone to regain my lost products? ( I'm almost seriously thinking about a class action suit or something...these things are supposed to be used for backup).

I'm sorry :( Do you burn at once, or write in stages? Don't scare me. Sigh. I literally have hundreds of backup cd's.

Was this a CDR or CDRW? CDRWs are known and notorious for this. It also depends wether you left the CD open or not, what I recomend, if you are using a CDRW close it after each burning session, this should stop this problem, if its a CDR you may have aquired bad batch.

The CD-RW's don't last as long as the CD-R's, that much I know. I think I heard somewhere a year, perhaps a bit more. I just checked my Imation spindle - They have a disclaimer right on the label that they aren't responsible for lost information. That's one of the reasons I went to an external HD.....for the cost of 3 50-disc spindles you can get one of those. Of course they have been known to fail too, apparently there are no guarentees in life. Your DAZ stuff will be reset, all you have to do is e-mail or call them. They're very good about that.

I have a ton myself...and its been happening quite a bit..go to use them, and they don't work. It is damn scary and just too much a bummer What I usually do is save downloads to a specific directory...then at some point, I save to CD about 600-650meg....depending of course... One of the things I've noticed is that CDs burned with a specific program and specific system may not work on another system... I used to use Easy CD..then Nero for a bit... Right now I'm using the built in Win XP CDburning software..I think its based on the Roxio software...so far the new ones still work, but its been a year.... I'm going to check all of them so I can be disappointed all at once...better a big hit than having it happen every other week or something...at least if I'm totally POd tonight or tomorrow, it may settly out in a couple of days :)

Had that happen! :( My bother told me not to save to a CD in the main directory. You got to create a directory tree and save the files in folders. Or it can become corrupted.

They are CDRs. Yes, I always close them at the end of the burn... perhaps a bad batch.... After problems encountered about a year ago, I started burning them on my system, then takine the CD and try it on another...to make sure it works....if it does, it goes into my storage folder... They are safely tucked away... this CD has a label on it, not written on with felt tip pen or anything.... I also have a hard drive backup now...but had a HD failure about 6 months ago as well... It seems to me redundant backup is a must...CDs, hard drive, and maybe more CDs...there's hopefully one of them will make it for about 5 years...after that it probably doesn't matter all that mush as all things are changing so fast....

same thing happened to me recently, lost 700mb of Poser props I had collected from when items were free, before all the stores started opening.

Good luck Dave, I've got my fingers crossed! I hope this one's the exception, not the rule.

thanks judith... I just checked several , including some others that were burned in 2000...they work...:) so hopefully its not too bad...

I have cd's older then 8 years, still working with good speed. I test the finished cd after the burn process for speed and quality, and if it's bad I burn it again. Better to waste a cd, then a full load of programs on a cd. Just don't buy the cheapest ones. I know, that my cd can burn at 32x but I never go above 24x, sometimes in this way it gives a better quality. I cross my fingers; in these years no cd faild me from hundreds. And same experience with dvd-r's.

I have CD RW with 600 Megs of props on it that cant read because of corrupted data. I know theres a way of recovering lost data form corrupted disks. I know its done all the time. I think was on to how it was done, a command that started with an e. Ive lost the information, and not sure what it was. Are any computer savvy people out there that might know what it might be, or know of any software that might be able to recover data.

Stay away from CDRW's. I've had a lot of corruption problems with them on two different machines. Just when you think you have it stored on a CDRW and then need it for a quick restore, it isn't there. I've been using Memorex CD's for a few years now with no problems. I also go back and check the CD's because I get too many repititious backups and want to compile them and that's when I do my checking for corruption. Fortunately I haven't had any corruption files. I also burn at 24X because the version of Easy CD Creator I have only does it up to 24X. I also do not use the Open Session thing either because if there is a computer problem and I have to reformat/reload, it probably won't work. CDs are too cheap to bother with that, and open sessions waste CD space. I recommend a DVD burner. They're wonderful, but the blanks are a little pricier than CDs. And like someone mentioned, stay away from the cheapo CDs like the store brands. The program "RecordNow" by Veritas, which came with my computer, verifies after it backs up (DVDs). I don't know how reliable it is, but it seems to work.

did a search on google...found badcopy 3d pro for recovery..it found all the files on the corrupted CD... The version that works is $40 however...but may be worth it. Any FREE CD recovery programs floating around? I also went to www.download.com..there are quite a few recovery programs, but all payware.

Don't you folks ever test a burned cd before you delete the stuff you burned to it? I always test every cd I burn. If it checks out, then and only then do I delete the files from my computer. I never have a problem with an old cd. Theoretically, with proper care, a cd should last longer than one's lifetime. The aren't affected by magnetism or degradation of the magnetic tape such as that found in a floppy for instance. My backup cd's all get burned, labled and put directly into a cd binder where they stay until I need them. I HAVE lost files that were sitting on my hard drive enough that when I've downloaded enough to burn to a cd, I burn it. I only burn to cdr (never cdrw) and a disk at once, I don't add little by little. You're asking for problems there. Laurie

I've had CDs fail. So far, all of the ones that have died on me have done so because of physical defects to the CD, such as the silvery stuff actually lifting up off the plastic disk, and all of the ones that have failed were burned in 1998 or 1999, and those were made by someone other than me (I didn't get my own CD writer until 2001). I've also had CDs fail because I didn't verify the burn when I did it, so now I always verify my burns right when I do it. It takes an extra ten or fifteen minutes, but I think it's worth it. I tend to make a lot of redundant backups. I started doing it because I couldn't remember what I had or hadn't backed up, and now I do it because it's saved my butt a couple of times when a particular CD has failed. ;) So, well, I don't know what to say other than sharing my experience. Oh, and make sure you keep your CDs away from moisture. I keep my CDs in a CD case, but I lost one once ages ago because of condense moisture that made the CD stick to the plastic and it damaged the surface enough that the CD was unreadable. Oh, and definitely keep your CDs away from pre-schoolers and toddlers. Actually, keep EVERYTHING away from pre-schoolers and toddlers... ;-) bonni (mother of a pre-schooler and a toddler)

Supposably a 'good brand' CD should last about 20 or so years. But I have had one go bad when it stuck to the silly plastic sleeve I put it in (Don't Use Plastic Sleeves!) and one in a standard case dated about 2000 will no longer read some of the files including a store bought collection of textures for DaCort's robe set. It'll try to read them but then locks up the system. That CD did work at one time when I reloaded but who knows what happened...? It's like my instructor said on day 1 of Computer 101 (1986): "Always back up your files, then make back ups of your back ups. And if your really serious, back those up too...."

"It's like my instructor said on day 1 of Computer 101 (1986): "Always back up your files, then make back ups of your back ups. And if your really serious, back those up too...." " Yup, Why trust just 1 CD to save hundreds of dollars worth of models when CD's are so cheap...

CD's has not been around long enough for us to have real experience on what kind of lifespan we should expect... A few observations have been made though: Use the gold plated ones, they appear to have a longer lifespan. The green ones appear to have the shortest. What happens when they fail is that the metal layer separates from the plastic, causing the laser beam to reflect back without having read the information. This can happen for a number of reasons. Bad manufacturing is one, of course, but the way they are stored matters as well. Plastic is not the tough, infinately durable material we like to think it is. It is very vulnurable to both light and moisture. Keep the CD's in a dry space and not in direct sunlight. When your PC says that the CD is unreadable, it only means that is can't read the directory. This is a very tiny bit of information compared to the entire CD. The actual data might be totally OK, but if the PC can't read the directory, it can't find the data. If this happens, you can usually recover almost everything using software that scans the entire CD for information. If it's valuable information, it's definately worth the expense.

I am so sorry this has happened to you. I had the same problem with a few of my CDs. Some I was able to "fix" but one is totally gone. DAZ is very good about sending a CD. It does cost, but is worth it. I know just what you are going though. I wonder if the brand has anything to do with it. I use Staples and wondering if I should use Fuji instead. Warm Regards, Nancy Deer With Horns (SophiaDeer)

Ouch! I kept losing stuff in the same way, in the end I was recommended a tape drive. It was 200 and each tape is 25 but it has saved me a lot of stress and upset.

There is one thing that it little known:

People believe that the "shiny" side is most critical - if you watch people placing CDs onto a surface, they always turn it upside down to protect the "shiny" side from scratches... well, WRONG!

There is a "mirror" layer inside the CD and that layer sits very close to the "printed" side, while the "shiny" side contains a thick layer of transparent plastic.
If you get scratches on the "shiny" side, then you have a good chance to polish it away, because you have a certain amount of transparent plastic to work on.
But if the "printed" side gets scratched (or otherwise affected) you will destroy the "mirror" layer much quicker and if this happens you can throw it away - no chance of recovery.

There is a huge controvery about the use of CD label stickers:

1. Some say that using labels will protect the "printed" side from manual damage, see above.
2. Some say that using labels will destroy the "printed" side much quicker due to chemical processes between the glue and the CD surface.

As far as I see, no final result yet...

Just a few things to add. Quality of CD's, always buy good quality CD's not the cheapest. Burning CD's, use a slower setting, takes longer to record but more accurate. Temperature, watch your temperatures. A CD stored at 30 degrees will last longer than a CD stored at 80 degrees. Humidity can be a problem also. I back up to a spare hard disk, a cd and to a zip disk. It does take some time but it takes less time to do that than have to download it all again. Here in the UK it is easier for us to keep CD's at lower temperatures.

dunno if this will help.. but some old tricks from the DJ trades.. first, use a T0shirt to clean disks. pref cotton, tis soft and won't scratch a disk. also work out from the hole to the edge.. not in a spiral.. (seen someone do that and leave a scratch all round the disk) second, and this is a last try lol get some toothpaste and smear it over the shiney side. gently buff that off. wash and dry, again with a t-shirt. 9 times out of ten this will fix a disk, in this case maybe enough to salvage the data. dunno if either will help.. Kai

I have nightmares about this sort of thing ... so much stuff that I downloaded two-three years ago and is long since gone from the net. If only one could use the internet as secure file backup. If 500 people have downloaded an item, and one of them loses it due to a CD failing, one would like to regard the copies held by the other 499 as valid "virtual backups".

For precious stuff, make two CD-Rs each with a different brand. It is very unlikely that both will give up, as long as you treat them carefully (as above):

• no heat
• no sunlight
• no moisture
• no scratches

Every 5 years, make a new copy onto something different: This year you can copy some 7 CDs onto one DVD-R, and the DVD-R costs much less than the 7 CD-Rs did 5 years ago. In 5 years you sure can copy 7 DVD-Rs onto something new that will be cheaper than 7 DVD-Rs this year... :-)

The latest version of Nero (5.5) has a data verification feature too, it's a check box at the bottom of the burn progress dialogue. I still check that zips open and exes start though, and burn two copies. Memorex work for me, I had a batch of TDKs that were awful (Ricoh burner).

From the Renderosity license: "Buyer may make a single backup copy of this archive file, for personal archival purposes only." We're all violating our license agreements by making sure we have a valid backup of our purchases. Sheesh. When are they going to change this? It's so darned silly.

I have used Memorex CD-R's...and had no problems..Now I am using TDK's and have no problems..I also use Alcohol 120% for burning...and I burn AND read at 8x...might take longer, but it def works.

Just a rehash on my proceedure... I always burn the entire session and close the CD. I always verify the data is there...I don't open every file, but I test in on the system used for burning, and on another system. I'm not sure what kind of CDs the bad ones are..I have printed labels on them, (think they are Imation),....I've also had corrupted files on different CDs...not just totally bad CDs as this one is...That file corruption may be a bad burn ???..those files are history... I have a bunch of Memorex that all seem fine. My current stack are Imation...I have had trouble with them in the past, but this bunch seem to be ok...no coasters...in fact, since using the Winxp software for burning, I have had no coasters during a burn...but it is all auto, I'm not even sure what speed its recording at...it just works. Also have changed from sharpie to markers labeled for CD use..not sure if it matters, but there are articles saying the Sharpie ink and other permenant markers seeps into the recording layer... So , once again, as with all computing experiences, your mileage may vary... I'm using a hard drive for backup now, but am also burning CDs...hopefully I can afford a DVD or even tape drive someday. Aren't the tapes environmentally challenged as well? I would think they would be more vulnerable than CDs.

I'm paranoid. Pair of 120Gb HD as mirrored RAID array, with differential CD backups (2 copies) weekly. Full CD backup sets every three months. I've got a DVD burner as well, but the DVDs seem more prone to error, so not using them for anything critical yet. -- Mark

A simple solution which may work for you is as follows:
1]. Download IsoBuster V1.4 [www.isobuster.com]install and reboot.
2] Place the corrupt CD in the drive used to burn CD's and hold down the right "shift" key.
3]. Start IsoBuster and select the CD drive where the CD is located.

IsoBuster will read the corrupt CD and show all data. Simply extract the files to your hard drive and reburn.

NOTE: This only works with IsoBuster v1.4. More info on the IsoBuster web site.

Hope this helps you out.

Dave, so sorry to hear about your back-up experiences :( What a pain, even if you do recover your corrupt files - it is still a pain and time consuming :( Thanks for the info on the IsoBuster Engel - something to look into :) ladynimue

yup- bought an extra 80 gig HD for 80 bucks just for storage and I use a program called second copy- I got sick and tired of having cd's de-res. one HD may have problem but not both.

How ironic is it that a day after I just took inventory of all my Poser crap and backed it up onto a bunch of CDs a posting like this comes a long. I've never had a problem with an old "closed" cd becoming corrupted, but I've had it happen a million times with cd's that are left open and then written to later. I always have this fear that one day I am going to come home and all my poser items and free stuff I have downloaded from various sites will be history. I actually thought I was diminishing this from ever happening, but now I'm not so sure. BLAH!!!

I use the built in burner in Win XP. there are no options when burning, so is the cd closed after burn?

What about the rumors that using a florescent marker on a CD will "clean" it?

Paranoid? Ha! I'm worse - I have 2 whole PC's that virtually mirror each other. With a total of 9 harddisks on them. I've burned literally thousands of CD's over the last 10 years and very few indeed have been bad. None that I know of have gone bad after time, all the bad ones were bad right away. I'm a multimedia producer, so CD-ROMs are my game. Never had a master sent back from the factory, ever. Nor a DVD master. --------------------------------------------------- Basic rules: (some of this has already turned up in the posts above) 1. Burn as slow as you can put up with. With important discs, do it at 4x or maybe 8x, not more. 2. Have a high quality burner (Sony, Plextor and similar) 3. Use TOP brand name CDs ONLY!!!!!! I only use TDK, Sony and the like, preferably gold (very hard to find these days) - but I'll put up with silver. (Don't use blue or green CDs) 4. Writing on them is OK if you use a good CD pen and the CD is laquered for writing. Labels are no good, they most often put the disc out of balance and in today's fast drives that's fatal. 5. Use a good burning app and always close the disc right away, no adding, ever. 6. Be very sure that your burner and the CDs you use like each other. This is not as self evident as you think, htere realy is an 'analog' side to this, some just don't like other. For instance, my Plextor SCSI burner (top notch) HATES Memorex discs. 7. If you can't read a disc, try it in other drives, lots of other drives. You may well find one that reads it. Especially a slow, old drive. This 52x nonsense.... ridiculous. The CD technology was never meant to be pushed to that speed, it equals many harddisks rotational speed. 8. Keep discs cool and dark, standing up. 9. Avoid damaging them, polishing them, anything at all.... and as someone pointed out, the top side is the critical foil side, the plastic side is exactly that - a thick piece of stabilising plastic. 10. NEVER have discs lying in piles. Always back in the jewel case right away. 11. Don't use soft pockets and such, use true jewel cases or at least Digipak. :] Fish

Uh... we back up on CD's at work! Holy Possible Lost Data Batman! I know we Poser folks might be able to sneer at some old V3 model someday, but I was regarding the verified, well-stored CD "with years of production files on it" as permanent. We actually need three backup CD's in different locations for security? I'm revamping the company backup policies tommorrow. Thanks for the heads-up!

Excellent suggestions Fish! I've always used the jewel cases, but have recently thought about going to the soft packs... appreciate the forewarning!

This was scarier than Jaws, Psycho, and The Exorcist put together... But good tips and info.

The average CD (as is in music, should last about 8 years, a gold one, 20) I have far fewer problems burning at lower speeds than at higher. I also make sure I use decent blanks. "No name" CD's are usually crap, at least in my experience. I rarely burn at anything more than 4x, usually use TDK CD's, they're fairly reliable. later jb

Buy expensive discs! Don't use labels! H:))

Burn two copies of each disk. It's doubtful both will go bad.

Attached Link: http://www.elpros.si/CDCheck/news.php

Remember, the Universe really is out to get you! And it's weapon of choice is Entropy! Here, in all it's unsavory glory, is my plan for data backup. 1. Use CDR, not CDRW for long term storage. You don't have to use the really expensive discs, but be wary of the cheapest brands. CDRs are a fairly reliable technology nowadays, but there are always people willing to cut corners with quality, so be careful with off brand or 'e-bay specials' 2. Organize your files into folders. Actually, this is the ghost of my DOS/FAT days, when you could only store so many files on the root partition talking, but it's not recommended to pour everything onto the root anyway. Why take chances? Besides, it looks messy! :) 3. Try burning at lower speeds. The faster you burn, the harder your system has to work to keep the data flowing. Also, you can end up with compatibility probs. with the faster burns. 4. Avoid exotic options with the filesystem. For backups, avoid multi-session and particularly any 'drag to disc' system, where the CDR is treated like a big floppy disk. Choose ISO level 1 for the best compatibility, and turn off any relaxation options. You can check Joliet extensions if your burning software allows it, so your long filenames will be preserved under Windows. But select ISO 9660 (ISO standard CD-ROM) rather than straight Joliet, this will allow other platfroms to read the CD if they don't understand Joliet. Also make sure you check the finalize the disc option, again this is more compatible. 5. Burn at least two copies. Even if your disc is good quality, it can still get lost or broken. Discs are cheap, your time and talent are not! 6. VERIFY the files after burning and before deleting any files from your HD! Even if your burning software said you made a successful CD, your disc may well have errors. The software may be lying! Don't trust it! The best way is to use a file compare/recovery program like CDCheck (See link) This program (and I am NOT affiliated with them in anyway) allows you to compare the files on your HD and CD bit for bit. It also allows has a recovery option. It's free for personal use (i.e. if you're not making money off the files on your CD) 7a. Labels- This is somewhat debatable. ON the one hand, CDRs have a thinnner upper surface than Commercially created CDs, so are equally vunerable to scratches on the top and bottom. A label can help protect the top surface from scratches. But... if the label is misapplied or uncentered or has airbubbles or grunks trapped underneath it, it can affect the readability of the cdr. This is especially true if you put the label on the wrong side of the CDR. :) 7b. If you're going to write on the CDR, Don't use hard pens like ballpoints etc. Some people say don't use regular markers like Sharpie either, claiming the ink can soak through the CDR and damage the data layer. There are special pens that claim to be safe for this purpose, but not surpisingly they cost more. Some people feel this is just an excuse to foist high priced pens. Me, I usually just write with a marker on the clear hub of the cdr. This restricts the length of the disc name, but I just use numbers, and keep a catalog of the discs so I can search for files. I use where is it, but there are lots of good file cataloging software. http://www.whereisit-soft.com/ 8. Put your first backup disc in one place, and if you're really paranoid, keep the second disc somewhere else. If you're really parnoid, make a third backup disc and keep it offsite. You don't have to wrap it in lead or aluminum foil though. Jewel cases or sleeves will do. :) BTW, those cute little jewel tone slimline cases don't seem to keep dust out as well as the old fashioned jewel cases. I personally don't recommend them. 9. How long do these things last? Who knows, I've heard estimates anywhere from 5 to 30 years. I'd wager closer to the 5 than the 30 myself. Be prepared to transfer everything to new discs at some point. This is also why you should avoid proprietary stuff like MO drives, who knows if you'll even have wokring hard ware to read 'em in 5 or 10 years? There you go, plan 11 from Lemurtek Headquarters. Oh yeah, and always remember, whenever typing huge longwinded epic missives in Renderosity's forums, backup your message! Either type in a test editor and then copy to the forum post window, or when your done typing, copy and paste the test to your clipboard. Trust me, Rendermonstery will eat your message if you don't! :) Reagrds- Lemurtek

Lemurtek..right on :) I'm off to get that CD Check right now.. all great points

one tning I have turned up in research.. to do with old old disks.. remember that copy of 'Brothers in Arms' we all bought? seems the ink that was used at the time is bad. not many first edition CD's of that album have survived.. the ink causes the CD to degrade.. I dunno if any other albums where affected.. but you may need to replace it ;) I know me and my father have had to..

Lots of old CDs had that problem - called "bronzing" because the reflective aluminium layer oxidises when the ink eats through the lacquer layer or the lacquer fails at the edges - I had half-a-dozen from Unicorn-Kanchana and Hyperion which needed replacing, pressed by Philips-DuPont in the UK. In that case I was given free replacements for all of them, and the rest of my discs seem OK.