There seems to be a lot of recent post about M3 upcoming products that I thought should be posted in the product showcase forum? Unless these fine products are going to be free? (ducking for cover)

Well, I don't see DAZ posting anything here. ;-)

Nothing that's been posted is for sale. Hey, it's a fact!

So, ok let me get this straight. As long as you are still in WIP stages you can show your products here? Cause I'm sure many merchants will REALLY be glad to hear that!

Doug, I'd noticed that, too. Some merchants do skirt the rules, to the annoyance of the customers who see it as cheating as well as to the other merchants who see it as taking advantage. One post on an upcoming article or set might be ok-sort-of-accidental-I-really-needed-your-opinion-before-continuing, but we've had a plethora of them from the same people for the same products. It isn't fair. Carolly

But I though Product Showcase was only for finished products, not for WIP's?

While I've never really been in favor of the ban on merchant renders, I am forced to side AGAINST the M3 posts, most of the items have been named as works in progress of comercial items. I've seen similar posts, by other merchants moved to the P.S. forum rather abruptly. Unfortunately rules should be enforced equally, so< I have to side with Sturkwurks on this. Either move them and stop the practice or open it up to all and let all of the merchants post WIP's of their material and only enforce the final advertisement to the Product Showcase list. mike

The rules are nebulous at best and seem to be applied arbitrarily. Someone please decide: either we can post ads here or not. You can't have grey areas. If WIPs are OK, then stand by for a plethora... -Mark

Personally, I'm sick and tired of Mike 3 already and he's not even released yet. I won't be buying him, either. Not after the nightmare that is Vicky 3. (Can you say "the injection system SUCKS", boys and girls? I knew you could.)

I can say: I love the injection system. That said, I too would like to know the official stand on WIPs. I know I've posted some thru time myself, and if it's ok I'll continue when I need help. But not just to show something. That belongs in PS for sure. Problem is, if you really need HELP with something commercial... It doesn't seem like a lot of people actually SEE PS. I know I only go there when I'm posting something L

Yes folks I think its time to toe the line. There has always been a little lee way allowed, but I think now enough is enough. If we need to see your M3 works in progress then we'll look for them in the Product Showcase forum.

what about the poser5 for MAC posts?? all over the poser forum....... thats a product for sale

Injection is good- I love the flexibility. I don't care if there are WIP posts of products here.

I think P5 for OSX is an exception, as its a version of the software this forum happens to be actually about. Those people are just curious whether they should buy it or not, and I hope many post with their experiences with it too. Its not exactly in the same league as a third party vendor selling their latest clothing set, or newest Poser figure... there will be a sizable audience here that are going to adopt P5 for OSX, they will need community support for their software purchase just like everyone else gets here... and I am sure many of those that havent adopted, are wanting to know how it goes for them.

I really hate to admit it but everyone here is so full of it. I've seen many post here that are related to Vicky or cartoonish figures and also many posts about "My first image" and no one has ever gotten so worked up about those like you are about Mike 3. Before V3 was released, there were posts hear all over the place about her and nothing like this was said. So what's the big deal this time with M3? Why was it OK for V3 to be posted here with everyones approval and it isn't OK for M3 to be posted without saying it has to be in the Product Showcase?

The V3 beta posts happened a day or two before she was released, but prior to that, they were moved to Product Showcase by the mods. If M3 is released today, the mods have allowed this to continue far longer than they did with V3. However, there is more to it than that. We have merchants, who have the benefit of receiving a copy of M3 prior to other merchants, posting previews of products they are making based on that advantage. I do not remember the beta team for V3 being a group of select merchants, especially considering the fact that she was naked in every render until Dave71 whipped up a free bikini for her. I understand merchants wanting to generate excitement about their future goods. I understand DAZ needing to create buzz about M3. But, I don't understand why renderosity hasn't posted a mention of what is obviously a policy change concerning previews of products in the Poser forum.

Hear, hear! I totally agree with you Migal. cherokee, agreed, but there's a difference between a customer purchasing something and being excited about it and showing off renders and such AND a merchant showing off a for-sale product "they" are designing. I'm ok with it either way - we can show product WIPs in the Poser forum - fine by me. But we should all have the option to do the same.

I think everyone should have the option to do so for any product. One thing aside: I'm not posting a price list, I'm not posting a list of things my Samurai set will come with, and I'm not posting a link to DAZ. I'm NOT pushing my samurai as a product right now, I haven't posted any 'Ad-style' images -- hell, I haven't even written 'Samurai' on it in a cheesy pseudo-asian font. I'm showing off the ARTWORK that I am making at the moment, as I am very proud of certain details of it like how the trouser legs' modelling looks and how well it's conforming. Renderosity used to sell art prints. Was there a restriction that if you sold a print of your art you could not post the same puicture here? I don't think so. Some of us are proud of our work and are not exactly happy with the idea that we should be shoved into the Product Showcase oubliette, where it can be ogled mostly by other merchants who might be caught by the subject line while they post theirs, simply because the work we're working on is going to have a price tag on it eventually. So as far as all this whiny 'Eeeew, they're gonna selllll it, Nyaah' crap goes, you can all shove it. I'm an artist, and I have every bit as much right to show off my work as anyone who's not trying to make a living off of it.

New versions of Poser/Daz|Studio, new mainstream figures which almost all of us are going to buy, old-dog-new-trick utilities and completely new approaches to posing/modelling/mapping seem legitimate for the main forum - they're more than just another set of clothes/face settings/textures. The rest is really Product Showcase fare in my view (for what that is worth!).

I can see right up your nose.

Dodger, Since I'm also a Daz broker, and a M3 beta tester, and developing stuff for M3 the same as you, I think it's only fair that we follow the rules, no matter how "illusional" they seem to be. If not, then there would be a flood of "product" posts in this forum. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you at all, I greatly respect your work and enjoy seeing what you have to produce. I know you werent the first to start posting the upcoming M3 products images, Drax was, so you were just following his lead. No big deal... The rules here arent' always clear, we'll see what "the powers that be" decide. Doug

I will have to disagree with the view that the best place to show your work-in-progress is in the Product Showcase. In my posts about my Michael 3 product I've been working on, I've been hoping to get feedback, and have asked for it... I've hardly ever seen decent feedback given in the Product Showcase forum, and it has always been more likely to appear in this forum. To be honest, I disagree with the entire idea of the Product Showcase forum. Many people I've spoken to NEVER EVEN GLANCE in there, aside from a select few, most of whom are "Merchants" themselves. That's not where people look when they're looking to spend money. When people are going to spend money on products it's usually on impulse... they see some awesome character in the galleries or in a render that someone posted in this forum, and find out that it's for sale and that they can purchase it, and then they do so. Or, they see an advertisement that happens to catch their fancy. Or maybe they see something spotlighted in the many newsletters out there. Yes, I will admit, the images I have shown are intended in part to build up interest in the product I am working on... I was hoping that some of my previous customers would see these and comment on what they think, so I know what kind of features were missing in the old one or needed tweaking in the old one. But a large part of that reason is to help DAZ build up the Michael 3 hype. That is the very reason for which I was given the go-ahead to start showing those images, and watched many of the other artists that have recieved beta versions of the model follow suit. I'm also tired of hearing this "unfair advertising advantage" propaganda. Advertising is not and has never been about EQUAL exposure. The person who builds the most hype about their product and builds the highest quality and most in-demand products gets the most money. Advertising is about competition. How often do you see someone say, "Oh, well, I've sold 100 copies of this item and this guy only sold 5 of his, maybe I should let down on the advertising." Yeah, RIGHT! Those artists who have been given the opportunity to beta test Michael 3 have been given that because DAZ wants to for the first time in a new product roll-out make sure that the community and their customers are able to purchase a complete character along with clothing and other add-ons at the time of release. Many of us have been either exclusive to DAZ since joining them or have otherwise shown a great deal of loyalty to them (not all, but many). As such we recieve this "unfair edge" because we showed DAZ the dedication to their products (actually, because we made them money, but let's not get into that). Once again, it's back to the very purpose of advertising... getting a jump on the competition. So, unless a Renderosity MOD specifically tells me otherwise, I will continue to show occasional previews of Mike 3 in this forum, building up hype for DAZ's product and thus making for a larger market for myself and other artists who either already are developing or plan to develop products for Mike 3.

As an added note, I admit that the last image i posted was very advertising-style, and perhaps that can be construed as unfair... however, here are some quotes from another thread, some of which are from people who AREN'T Merchants, and are in fact part of the consumer base for ALL of our products.- Frankly, I don't care where it's posted, I just want to see it. Here is just fine. Especially since it's a FREE UPGRADE to everyone who bought the Mike 2 package. It's a great package, and any promo with Mike 3 is appreciated. It's not like anyone is forced to look at the post.

• Frankly, I don't care where it's posted, I just want to see it. Here is just fine. Especially since it's a FREE UPGRADE to everyone who bought the Mike 2 package. It's a great package, and any promo with Mike 3 is appreciated. It's not like anyone is forced to look at the post.
• I don't know what the big problem is with this posted here. Only seems far to me. Before and when Vicky 3 was being released, this forum was loaded with V3 posts and not one e=word was said about "this needs to be in the Product Showcase". Now M3 is getting ready to be released and that's all you hear when an image of him or something someone is working one for him is posted here.
• I always forget there's a product showcase, but I'll be sure to remember when I finally get some product out there.

Fact of the matter is that the only people who really look at the Product Showcase forum are the artists who are forced to post there. (with a few exceptions)

Never look at the product showcase forum, I look here to see whats going on and what people are talking about, then If I like what I see I go buy it. I for one liked it when people posted pics of what they were working on here in the poser forum, even if it was a product.

This appears more and more to be the general consensus from non-merchants

Well, (addressing Drax) Unless a Poser Forum Mod reads this, and moves your post to the Product showcase, then we have a new precident for the Rules of Renderosity. Which is what I'm really getting at. What's fair is far... If you get away with it, then by golly, everybody else should be allowed too. PS: The most hype dosent always win. (New Coke anyone?, or how about seeing the movie Charlies Angels 2?) It does still boil down the the actual product. And yours are exceptional as always. Doug Sturk

The no advertising rule has been in place because people were getting pissed over the ads running rampant here in the Poser forum. I also agree that it is not fair that the Merchants creating things for Mike 3 get to advertise here. I am creating things for mike 2 V3 V2 should I post here too? "So as far as all this whiny 'Eeeew, they're gonna selllll it, Nyaah' crap goes, you can all shove it." Very professional Dodger. Those who say things like that should always take their own advice. I have asked Clint for the offical stance on these threads. Before this turns into a war.

And just to add my 2cents: those are not a few selected merchants - every DAZ broker has the opportunity to get a beta copy of Mike3 and create own products. But anyway: it belongs to the Product Showcase forum and if I would work on a texture for Mike3 I would post it there and not HERE.

Doug, honestly, I see your points... I just don't necessarily agree with them. And thanks. I'd love to see what you're working on for Mike 3.- - - - - -

Stormrage, thank you. An official stance would be nice. Of course, 'm sure noone would argue posting a WIP here to ask what people would like to see on it? Such as the thread I just posted asking what kind of belts people would like to see on the Barbarian

Not sure what the PTB will say about wip threads on commercial products. we will see tho :) I just prefer we get Clint or Jeffs or spikes opinon before it turns into a war remember People in here are customers act like children here and you may lose sales.

You know, a better idea than the Product Showcase forum might be actually to add a toggle kind of like the nudity one where people can flag their post as an advertisement and those people who have selected in their profile not to show advertisement threads will have them hidden. From a development standpoint it's really only a few minutes worth of work (a little bit of code and altering the WHERE clauses of a few MySQL queries), and would then allow people to post about their products in the place they will recieve the most attention... a Bryce product in the Bryce forum, a Poser product in the Poser forum... etc... and those who find it offensive can turn them off, just like they can the nudity.

This would also make for a completely fair method of advertising without keeping your products in the oubliette of Product Showcase (as it was so elegantly put earlier). For those who prefer to go to the Product showcase, a simply if, then conditional within the forum code could make that forum display all advertisement posts for all forums.

Minor Rant: If Curious Labs can post ADVERTISEMENTS about Poser 5 for MAC OSX wherever they please then the same should go for all other commercial products

Actually the main complaint about the ads wayy back when the rule started wasn't so much the ad themselves but the having to wade through page after page of ads to get to the normal talk. Which i totally agree with

Personally, I'd much rather see the Poser Forum open to allowing preview images of works, not overly blatant ads like "Buy Now!" but informative ones where you can show your work. You know, people, if the merchants aren't allowed to they just get their friends to do it. What, you really believe all these people who JUST bought something and HAVE TO show us a render? What's the purpose of the galleries then if not for their renders? What I'm trying to say is, I'd much rather get if straight from the horse's mouth than see endless posts of yet another render with different lighting from some elated customer. Of course, if the merchant shows us the same package in every single agonizing step to completion that would get tiresome, perhaps something at the beginning IF they truly want to garner ideas and towards the end of the work for information purposes.

"If Curious Labs can post ADVERTISEMENTS about Poser 5 for MAC OSX wherever they please then the same should go for all other commercial products" Wellll if there was no poser we wouldn't be havin this discussion.

Stormrage, we can go in circles for hours over that one, LOL

LOL too true..

oh what the hell, I'll throw my comment in the barrel too. I look in the producct showcase forum for purchasable items. lots of works in progress have actually lead me to purchase that item before (Sanctum Art's recent Daz products come to mind). WIP in the poser forum of items that are going to be sold should be questions to the topic and have been in the past. I had no problem with Dodger asking for a texturer for his product, he showed a wireframe of the model, and while it will be sold eventually, I could see and learn from that thread (sort of). but the blatent hey look what I'm working on to sell is just market research. it is unfair to other merchants that have to wait to buy the model and then create items. there is always the "hey where can I find [fill in blank]" thread with lots of follow on posts of where to find items, these aren't usually BY the merchant them selves but individuals. if the poser forum becomes a joint learning/market showcase then it's gunna be spam all over and I'd tend to look for answers less in a forum like that. Watching V3's release and process, and watching the current M3 posts, there is a lot of difference in how this is being handled, and it IS getting worse. WIP with a what's happening here question, why, how can i do this, those kind of things are what this forum is about. my latest image posts should be text, with a link to the gallery. thats what the gallery is FOR. and items that are just product showcase artwork should be in the product showcase because that's what thats for. now that I've spewed my version the poser community is a marry band of crazy opinonated fun loving wild creative artists, generally we do what we want so who cares and it will all blow over until the next big poser craze comes and we have this discussion again. okay go back to ignoring me.

"Coming soon" "Now available" "Ready for release" All these should go in the Product Showcase (which I visit regularly btw..not hard for people to do, they're just not in the habit.) But threads asking (sincerely) for technical help or a design decision should be allowed here. I thought Drax? post showing the difference in modeling skills over time with the boots was utterly fascinating and would be royally po'd if that were moved to the Product Showcase. Dodger's too requesting help with UVMapping. His posting another thread actually SHOWING M3 because others were was fine with me also..though it could have been posted in the original thread. When DAZ posts regarding M3 I imagine it will be in the showcase. I've no problem with that as long as someone posts here that the pics are there. Would the merchants still whine if the beta testers only showed M3 naked? And, heck, I'd like to shove something up a couple nostrils too. LOL

"Would the merchants still whine if the beta testers only showed M3 naked?" Yep they would if it was an advertisement Look at it this way the merchants have been told NOT TO ADVERTISE in the Poser Forum. Yet some do. Those who try to obey the rules are mad because we do obey and others get away with it.

Even if it's not DAZ doing it? What if it's a funny pose (which just happens to show how nice the joints are) that makes everyone laugh? What if it were Sallie or Lisbeth putting Mike 3 in one of their patented charming/humorous renders? Who's to decide it's not an advertisement simply because he's in it? And just as we wouldn't have this forum without Poser, the merchants would have nothing to sell without these figures. I wouldn't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater if I were a merchant.

Poser 5 information from CL was left here because this forum is about ... CL's Poser. Pretty much anything from CL is directly about the program and affects everyone who visits this forum so moving their posts seems silly. I know there's a lot of skirting of the rules for ads and it can be difficult to get a solid boundary line. We have everything from merchants posting tutorials which happen to feature their products to merchants posting WIPs of their works with how-to questions to merchants posting pictures of their products with tag lines of "you know where to look for this." (In some cases, they were reposting their promo pictures from their stores! When asked to not post the ad in the Poser Forum, a few have yelled at us saying we were discriminating against them because they just wanted to show off their artwork.) We had a lot of complaints about the Poser Forum becoming nothing but ads for products so we made the Showcase Forum and started moving the ads there. Now we have a few merchants who cheeseball the system by posting not-quite ads - posting pictures of their products in the forum for no understandable reason except to entice people to buy. (No, I'm not accusing anyone in this thread of being one of the cheeseballers.) This has led to merchants posting WIPs, etc., because they're seeing other merchants post their products here and it seems like so long as the word "buy" isn't in the initial post, it's okay. We're really trying to find a reasonable middle ground. If we crack down to the letter of the rules, then we're yelled at for being literal and not using common sense. If we try to give a little leeway and distinguish between helpful questions and answers that happen to involve a merchant or a commercial product vs. blatant ads, then we're yelled at for being totally inconsistant and playing favorites. I asked in the back room for a written policy of what is and isn't acceptable. We certainly don't want merchants to feel like they're banned from the Poser forum, but we really don't want everyone else to feel like the Poser forum has turned into one big ad. To me, it's not that hard to determine if a post is an ad or not. Be honest. Are you posting it to get help on an issue or to draw attention to the product? If the main purpose is to get more possible buyers, then you should be posting it in the Showcase forum. Cheers!

I haven't read thorugh this entire thing yet ... so forgive me if I've missed any importatn points. You the members requested that the advertising be moved out of the Poser forums. We did so. Unfortunately, many merchants push the limits as hard as they can. We do try to keep it down to a dull roar. THIS IS ABOVE A DULL ROAR. If there are many more product posts we will be forced to be more strict in enforcing. What is a product post? ANY post regarding a commercial product, in progress or final, by the person creating the item is technically a product post. We are mostly very relaxed about it, we understand that people like to show off their work. Exceptions to the rule: requests for help, DIRECT response to a question Lyrra the UnAmused

Well according to the long long talk i had with a mod a while back and was told regular posting images of stuff that would eventually be posted for sale was not allowed, (this was stuff posted purely as an image, not an advert, you know like me wanting my ego strocked ;O) while it wasn't against the rules it is not in the spirit of them, i was told, so with that in mind it kinda makes you wonder how the threads mentioned here haven't been moved LOL..not saying i'm against it mind i've long long got used to not worrying about this stuff :o).....Steve

"And just as we wouldn't have this forum without Poser, the merchants would have nothing to sell without these figures. I wouldn't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater if I were a merchant." ehm it wasn't the merchants who decided it.. It was the membership and PTB

Thanks for the official word Lyrra... feel free to move my threads, then. One question though, is the post asking people what kind of belts they like (as i'm currently stumped as to what to give the Barbarian) be okay here?

Drax that one is on the line really ... as a merchant I'd be inclined to post in the Showcase, as thats where the people with the money are, you know? grin The general idea is to keep this forum from getting clogged up with ads.

BTW: Spit's guidelines are exactly what I use when I ask a Poser Mod to bump a thread to the Showcase forum. (They make the final determination, but I point out possible problem threads when I cruise through here.) If someone posts a picture or a review of a product that they really like - and they have no ties to the merchant except as a customer - then that's not a problem. Word-of-mouth posts, "This product rocks!" is fine. If we find someone is cheating by posting happy posts of their own products with a clone account or bribing a customer to have them post a lot of "Check this out!" posts, then we'll start bumping all their threads as well. Hope this helps in the meantime.

"But threads asking (sincerely) for technical help or a design decision should be allowed here" If you guys pretty much follow the guidelines Spit mentioned, then asking people what they'd like to see on a particular product is a design decision. Still, Lyrra, I think that the Product Showcase doesn't work quite as well as you think. I think a survey should really be taken to find out if people really do look there when searching for products to buy or if most of them forget about it, and if it's as I fear, then maybe a code modification such as the one I mentioned might be in order.... because many of the people I've asked tend to just forget about it.

hmmm the mods and admins can see how many times a thread has been viewed and if i remember right Showcase was viewed quite often