Am I wasting my time? Or is it that I am wasting Renderosities time? It is over a month since I first raised my question pertaining to the Family Friendly stricture in the TOS! Wherefore comes the difficulty in giving me an answer? --------- Subject: "*** ***" and the TOS. Archive of message sent to *******: Dear ****! I notice that the link to ******* **** **** has been moved up the list of links for the Web Ring top 15, so there has been some change to the situation. What remains, is the image " ". Am I to understand that the image has been deemed suitable for viewing by the children that visit Renderosity or is its removal still pending? As I don't wish to start a new round of squabbling in the forum I have decided to approach you personally. In light of the ruckus that has been generated on the subject of "Family friendly" content at Renderosity, the presence of this particular image has me thinking that I have not understood one word of what has been said so far, let alone the TOS. I apologise if this comes across as being smart-arsed but I assure you that it is crucial for me personally that I get a grasp of what clear boundaries are demarcated. " " goes well beyond a bit of suggested nipple tweaking in my opinion, and yet, seems to have a longer shelf life on the site. Sincerely. Brendan. (Sent 7/2 06:47) ----------- Subject: " ***" and the TOS. Archive of message sent to ********: Dear *****, two weeks on and the link still takes us to " ***". After the fuss generated by removing an image of a woman that might have been touching her nipple!, I really though that a speedy clarification on the matter of whether this constitutes a Family Friendy image? would have been forthcomming. Please assure me, that after all that has been said on the subject so far, there are no double standards being applied when censoring what is sponsored by Renderosity? I find it difficult to understand why this particular question I have raised is taking so long to deal with?. Sincerely. Brendan. (Sent 7/18 17:58) ------------------ Dissappointedly yours. Brendan

hi Brendan, I'm a little lost here so bear with me. Images hosted by renderosity (expecially photo's) are removed from renderosity if there found to be in voilation of the TOS. Like up there in your message 'nipple touching' images are removed from renderosity. Site links - we dont have any control over what content people place on there own sites, however this did raise a suggestion to add a 'nudity' flag to the offsite links as like what the renderosity site has so they can be filtered better for the customers. if I've misunderstood whats being said please bear with me ;) still the morning here and i haven't even had my first cup o' java. -Arthur N.

Hi Brendan, Thanks for letting us know about the "site link," again. Please note many of the Admins are out of town at SIGGRAPH and will not be able to respond to your inquery until next Monday! We promise to bring this issue up to the Admins again when they get back - Also, please note that you are not being ignored, just other important issues that needed to be urgently taken care of have taken precedence over this matter. Thank you for your understanding and patience in this matter. Sincerely, ladynimue

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12357&Form.ShowMessage=1305025&Reply=1309415#80

Dear Arthur. thanks for your reply. Please follow the above link to see where the question first arose. If you have access? you are welcome to review my IM archive to see what exchanges have been made regarding this matter. On a scale of 1-10 formulating unsuitability for family viewing I would put gilo25's nipple touching at 1-2 and the web ring link a full 10. The web ring links appear to have some special status regarding the TOS that protects them from the summary deletions that are enacted in the galleries, at least it appears that way to me. I now find myself in the invidious position of seeming to pick on some hapless artist just to get a point across, when all I was seeking was some clarification on the TOS. If "a week in politics is a long time"? then a month in Renderosity is an eon, in as much as events here usualy move at a far greater speed. This thread is my last attempt to gain an understanding of what is really meant by *Family Friendly* after which I must move on. After all this time I can't help feeling that I am just descending into a endless loop of carping on the subject. Sincerely. Brendan.

well the web ring basically falls back to my orignal statement, we dont have any control over the content of other sites, but i will see if they can apply a 'nudity' flag to the webring as well so that perhaps there will be better filtering so the site is a bit more child friendly, I can see your issues with the sites gallery however. I'll see if we can get something done to help improve the filtering method :)

your on the net man. Deal with it. Renderosity dosn't have control over what other people put on their sites...I occationally put nuidy images on my site and not here, and if renderosity tried to tell me not to I would just laff, and laff hard. If they want to put a nuduty flag on off site links then more power too them. If you do not want to ssee sexual imgages with poser then I suggest you just put it away and go find some other hobby.

Renderosity doesn't have control over what other people put on their sites... Absolutely right, but links that sit on this site should be under 'Rosity's control..at least to the point of filtering for content. Whatever links point to from this site, reflect on 'Rosity If you do not want to ssee sexual imgages with poser then I suggest you just put it away and go find some other hobby That is just wrong. I work with Poser, and nudity doesn't bother me..but when I join a site that promotes itself as a 'family friendly site' I expect to not see sexually explicit images, or at least have these images in a place I can avoid for my 'family's' viewing pleasure. Telling someone that if they dont want to see nudity then they need to go elsewhere and find something else to do with their time, is like telling someone that if they have an adult bookstore on the corner then they shouldn't mind their kids going in and 'reading' those books, and if they do mind, then they should just move. Thats BS and rude.

How can they possibly filter what is put on non rosity sites? It would be impossible what you are asking...this line of reasoning as only going to bring about the abolishment of the rosity webring. And the Porno store on the corner is not even in the same ballpark. every one that uses poser ( ok well lets say 99% ) have seen the poser porn, so granted links from rosity's web ring are going to point to a few poser porn sites.

It's not impossible, many sites just frankly do not allow members to post links to certain types of images, or other sites rather, that contain certain images...if they do, then those links get pulled and a warning is issued. Not raggin' on ya ODOL, that last part of your previous post just rattled me a bit..Its not you per say, its when ANY member here tells another member that if they dont want to see nudity, then they need to move on to another place..it just gets to me ;) Sure 99% of us Poser users have seen the Poser Porn..but that doesn't mean we HAVE to see it. Members and non-members alike, who prefer NOT to see it, should have the option of not being directed to it. At least we need a way to be able to warn viewers what types of images are on certain sites, that links from here...We have to remember that not all users here are Poser users, and that not all viewers here are members. We could have for instance, an area up there on the list of webrings, that are specifically geared towards Poser..with a 'warning, explicit content possible' type thingy. That way viewers know what is there...then 'Rosity doesn't get the complaints from ppl that weren't expecting those types of images linked to from a 'family friendly' site...The warning is in clear view of members and non-members.

I never have and never will object to nudity of any kind in the galleries on this site or on any other site, on the contrary! nudity is a time honoured and essential subject for visual representation. ----- Contrary to what some think, I am dealing with it! this thread is about seeking clarity and parity for all members in the galleries and linked sites. The artist who owns the link in question was contacted by Renderosity weeks ago about the image that transgresses the TOS, if the artist concerned does not wish to remove their image and live under the restraints set by the TOS of this site it must surely follow that the link should be removed in the same manner that images are removed from the galleries for the same breaches of the said TOS. Whether such a stance by Renderosity is laughable to web ring members or Renderosity members that have links to their personal sites? is of no consequence, either we all follow the rules or we do not! Renderosity may not have control over what content is in the links provided, however, once a problematical link is pointed out to the administration the TOS should be invoked without hesitation. I fail to see why a web ring link provided by this site is beyond the reach of the rules set by Renderosity. I have never asked for the image or the link to be removed, I have simply asked whether the image is considered a Family Friendly one. Of course it is a leading question, however, a definite stance was taken by many moderators and admin's. over the Nipple Photograph and it remains to see whether the same people have the courage of their convictions to attend to the Pornography as to the nudity problem and if not? why not? I have work of a more challenging nature than I normally post here but have restrained myself from posting because of the woolly nature of the TOS. It would be gratifying to know if I can link from my gallery to a site that shows whatever I please and blatantly disregard the TOS whilst relatively harmless images in the galleries here get deleted for spurious reasons generated by the knee-jerk prejudices of some viewers who don't see the nudity flag but unerringly see images that contain nudity that they can be offended by. Sincerely. Brendan.

*The problem lies in the fact that Renderosity still has not published standards to define "family friendly". * Exactly. It almost seems {to me} like they {PTB} want their cake and eat it too.. you cant have a 'family friendly' site, and have questionable content..you cant run a family friendly site and just remove things when someone complains...and leave it up until someone does..the TOS on this issue most def. needs some attention.. Either its 'family friendly' or its not. And they need to clarify what they consider 'family friendly'...Im just wondering why that is so hard..:|

"Im just wondering why that is so hard.." It certainly is a mystery Jani, one would assume that the people that make the decisions have a clear idea in their heads of what "Family Friendly" means? considering that they make the decisions that deem images not "Family Friendly". I have submitted other images for scrutiny by the arbiters of what is Family Friendly, images that are as blatantly sexy as any nipple tweak one is likely to see! and yet the images remain in the galleries, some of these images actually advertise their sexiness in the title in order to draw an audience but have run the gauntlet of the Hanging Committee and entered the realms of what is suitable for public viewing in Renderosity. Where the uncertainty principle lays in the minds of those so certain? remains an enigma! Cheers to you! Brendan.

..I had better stop pulling faces, just in case the wind does change!...

scratches head so why are people getting upset at the possibility of getting a nudity flag to websites? if you wanna see them you just wouldn't turn on the no nudity flag for it (like the galleries already work)... sorry im not really understanding the hostility tward the idea.

OK you can be in charge of going through the web ring to find Poser Porn. caleb sorry if it seems that I am upset about it I guess I am just playing devils advocate, I for one find poser porn distastefull.

keep in mind too most the admins have been away at siggraph during this time as well, so actions are expected to be a little slower.

back and looking into this. discussing with the admins now. thanks tammy

Thank You Tammy. Regards. Brendan.

scratches head and wonders out loud... Why is the Renderosity team responsible for a cut-and-dry definition of "Family Friendly"? If you wanna start splitting hairs so much on what would constitute viewable by family then break it down the way the movie ratings are - G / PG-13 / PG / R / NR / X / XX / XXX (and any others I missed). They have a pretty regulated version of what falls into each category, do they not? And if that's how you wanna do it, then I'm afraid that this site will be relegated to a 'G' rating. Because not all families are the same. My own kids are 13 & 12 - what I feel comfortable with them viewing at this age is not the same as what I would have allowed them to view at age 5 & 6 or when they're 17 & 18. And what I will let my kids see is not what the neighbors would let their own see - and no one is inherently wrong or right (barring the grossest things). Damn - this is my computer, this is my house - I and my husband are the determiners of what is Family Friendly in this household and my kids are watched w/the eyes of eagles whilst they sit at my computer on the internet.

It will be about 4 weeks before we come back to this issue. We have had discussions with admin and mods and will need about this much time. thanks tammy

Tammy; Could I ask that the PTB consider dropping the 'family friendly' nonsense altogether? That term is a very new, very Politically Correct buzzword that has no definitive meaning in our language. And -can- have no meaning, as there is no possible way to define just what 'family' is, except in the broadest general terms. And it has become nothing more than foolscrap to hide behind for a small percentage of the population that assume that every family should be just like -their- family. If Renderosity is truly an 'artist's site', then by definition you have a place where people come to express ideas...many of which can and will be unpopular, or shocking or offensive in some way. Playing to the lowest common denominator looks good in theory, but as network TV (for an easy example) has demonstrated, it just results in an unappealing mess of mediocrity. And only the shows that broke 'those rules' got the viewership. If there is enough youth traffic on this site, perhaps it's time to consider starting a Rosity Lite, with TOS restrictions to match. Trying to be all things to all people has never worked for anyone or anything, and ultimately results in disaster. Having some kind of Adult Content Flag on links to sites outside of Rosity could work....and it could also turn into a logistics nightmare, with the speed that sites mutate these days. It might be wiser to have an intermediate step in site linking, where first you go to a new window that explains you are about to leave the influence of the Rosity staff and mods, and enter someone else's domain and rules, with a go and a cancel field to let those who don't want to, back out. You can't be a place where adults hang out and converse and learn, =and= a place where people can throw their kiddies while they do something else. At the moment Rosity has fairly set rules about what can and can not be shown. It's worked so far...

Thank you for this notification Tammy, In the meantime! I was informed a while back in an IM that...... "Instant Message from ********: The admins have sent an e-mail to ******* **** **** asking about the image. They're going to give them a bit of time to respond before removing them from the ring. I didn't want you to think we'd forgotten. Cheers! (Sent 7/5 21:38)".... ....any update on this? It is a pity that the image by gilo25 did not receive the same lead in time to think about removing their work before being deleted. I understand that it will take much time and deliberation to address revising the TOS and inserting and defining the new "Family Friendly" stricture into the guidelines, however, my questions are about the application of the rules as they are currently being applied, that is, unless, the TOS is suspended for the next month? Sincerely Brendan.

Forgive me for being so dense!. Am I to understand that it is going to take a further month to decide if "Mad Lab" is Family Friendly or not?. Sincerely. Brendan.

It is not just about this site you mention. We don't have a good process for cleaning this information. So we have spent some time discussing it. We know the webring needs a good cleaning and want this to be fair process to those that are in the ring and not just to one member which is what it would be. So in bringing to the table this one area which i know you think could be handled more quickly - you actually brought to our eyes the need for much more around the webring. Thanks tammy

Thank you Tammy, that is more than fair enough. I look forward to the ironing out of the matter whereby everyone is expected to behave and can expect to be treated the same, according to the guidlines set out in the expected revision of the TOS. Regards. Brendan.

Much appreciated. thanks for understanding. tammy

Wanted to give an update on this. We have had several discussions regarding our webring and will be making some changes within the next few weeks. To answer this question. According to our current policy. "TERMS AND CONDITIONS: You may post as many links to our site as you like, although we will only track the number of new members who join us after coming from your sites. You may submit any link to 2d/3d art-related sites, as long as the name of the link is not misleading, and it doesn't link to any sort of money making schemes, click brokering, link exchanges, and/or adult sites. This system is intended to share our traffic with our member's Artist Pages only. Your link may not appear on our site until after the first referred member joins up. You may periodically recieve an automated email from us if it is later detected you have removed the link to our website. You agree to accept these emails and not report them as SPAM for as long as you remain in this program. If we find you have deleted your link to us, we reserve the right to remove your sponsorship links on our site. People caught trying to abuse the system, or creating fraudulent accounts to boost their ranking will be banned. These terms are subject to change without notice. We reserve the right to pull any link at any time." The members site is not violating the webring terms and conditions. I think the confusion is the webring is being viewed in terms of our TOS. However, we do feel that the terms and conditions of the webring need to be improved and our team is currently working on this. We have not had a good system in place for monitoring the webring and will be making programming changes to this as well. Once these have been completed and implemented we will communicate in forum news. thanks tammy

Many thanks for the update Tammy, Regards. Brendan.

Here I am again! Somehow I get the feeling that my questions, as presented in this thread, are not destined to get an answer? I have just read the new TOS and hope I understand them enough not to post any work that would be deemed unfit for this site. What I could not see, was any information about the updated status of works and sites that are linked through Renderosity. Any news?

It was put on hold because a greater pressing issue with our servers. We should be able to get back on speed. I think a couple of weeks ago, we cleaned the site for dead links. Next is to begin with reviewing the current sites. There were currently about 3000 sites in the webring. We will be adding a pending section as well. If you have any specific questions or concerns, please let us know and he will be glad to answer them. thanks tammy