There has been much gnashing of teeth around here again about market items being shown here, ads for future products, stc etc..what's fair for some and not others... Here's an idea that I think would ease some tensions and be fair to all..... How about instant locked threads....such as....I have a wip for a future product.. The initial post/image can go here.....because of the little check mark, the thread is locked where there can be no replies.... then those interested can jump over to whatever forum Renderosity has created to discuss such content via the included LINK in the original post. That way, this forum stays relatively clean other than the one post, which has a flag as a future marketplace item or some such....so those interested can check it out...those not interested can skim over it...simple enough in thought...doable in practice ??? Or perhaps as someone else suggested, just a simple flag so those not interested can skip it.... I, for one, enjoy seeing what the future brings in relation to new POSER products....this is the main POSER FORUM, and as such, I think we should have at least a peak at future products here.....or as requested before...a FUTURE PRODUCT/WIP FORUM....

why bother with all that ?? just post in the product showcase forum from the beginning My idea is to resttrict ALL free stuff anouncements to the product showcase forum that wiil get the "traffiic" moved over there in a hurry

Hi good idea, I for one like to see what people are working on but I sure as heck won't go looking in another forum ,'showcase', just incase someone has a new product and may need some feed back. just my 2pen'eth Dave

People look here first. Most traffic is here. Thus condusive for product sales. Moving it to a forum that's not all that frequented is bout like putting the item at the back of the store where no one sees it. dave

I personally love seeing the WIP's here in the main forum. I think it is a very valuable tool not just for the designers of the product to get feedback, but also to allow the greatest aspects of the community to have intput as to how it develops. The problem with removing WIP's from the forum is that judging what exactly a WIP is. Quite often I post character designs that i am starting here in this forum which are nothing more than simple "inspiration sketches" (albiet done digitally in poser), that never even amout to being a product. However what becomes a product often occurs as a result of the responces I get towards the character. So although these sample renderings may become a product, more often then not they are just ideas I am playing with...and as such have no place in any showcase forum. I say keep em all here...flag them if you must...or this can of worms will never be closed.

This isn't purely a Poser thing folks, all posts which are about advertising a forthcoming product belong in the Product Showcase forum regardless of what package it's for. That forum was created as a direct response to numerous posts here bemoaning the prolific amount of advertising going on. We've also said, on several occasions, that it's okay to post here genuine WIPs asking for help on final touches or 'how do I...', but renders which are nothing but 'here's the face, here's the body, look at this morph, here are the clothes for my new character' are not okay. Because they're advertising and as such belong in Product Showcase. Using the argument that this is where most people come so this is where I'm going to post doesn't hold any water. The only exceptions to this are for free items. Thanks, Kev.

If not for the marketplace vendors Poser would have died a long time ago and there would be no forum. I say cut em some slack and allow a quick heads up when there's a new item on the way.

Here Here!

I don't see what the big deal is anyway. There used to be a WIP forum and I guess nobody went there so they did away with it. I always forget about the Product Showcase forum so very seldom go there. If an artist wants to show his wares here or somewhere else, what difference does it make? I guess if we really want to split hairs why don't we complain about people who post there images here instead of the galleries where they belong? If we think really hard I'm sure we can find some more things to gripe about.

I love viewing others WIP, no matter where it is posted. As for me I have no problem showing our products or WIP products in the Product Showcase. I never did have a problem with it. I figure if you post the title correctly those who are interested will come see it, those who aren't you have not wasted their time. Sharen

Why should the cost of an item allow you to be able to post WIP or info on your product in here if it is free but if you are charging for it then that is advertising. I'm sorry but advertising is advertising, regardless of how much they are asking fo rtheir items. Move one to the product showcase without the other is discrimination. I do not make items for free or for sale so I have no invested interest here. You can not have 2 rules for the same thing. If you are allowing freestuff in here then you should also allow the market traders the same chance.

"We've also said, on several occasions, that it's okay to post here genuine WIPs asking for help on final touches or 'how do I...', but renders which are nothing but 'here's the face, here's the body, look at this morph, here are the clothes for my new character' are not okay." Actually there is a problem with that, according to a mod last night. what I was asking was a "how do I" or "how should I" more specifically with no pictures, no announcements, no location, no price and no anything other than a little question. It happened to be on a future product and yes I flagged it so that people could skip it if they were so offended but it was simply a question.

Personally I like seeing the WIP. They are very interesting to me; allow the potential merchants to get fresh ideas; and allow potential customers to get products and add-ons that they actually want. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems a very vocal minority want to do away with them. Granted, I do remember how it was before the Product Showcase was created. It was rather chaotic, and something needed to be done. The Product showcase has worked well for what it is. But it does not need to become a WIP forum also. But whatever is decided, please do it soon. This constant arguing, moving threads, merchants being angerered and deleting threads is starting to get to me (and probably many others).

ya know....anoher idea instead of a WIP forum may be a "Poser Designer forum" where WIP's, Upcoming products, general ideas, inspiration requests can be posted. Because seriously apart from the WIP's, this forum would hold little interest for me because that would leave it to be simply a forum for tech questions, political grievences against daz and CL, and other general whining. But thats just my view

don't know what the problem is... i like seeing the adds. this is the only forum i visit.. actually it's on my favourtites... i by pass the front page.. Solution... i think can the product showcase forum.. add a new flag (like the nudity flag) and call it advertisment.. this way like the nudity flag... you can skip the message.. It makes business sense.. rendersoty survives becuase of revenue generated from the market place.. the more adds the more money renderosity makes..

Another case of the "minority vote wins the day". I never minded seeing WIP's or ads here, tho I would probably still restrict my own ads to the product showcase since I'm programmed now...LOL. And there folks just don't see them. I just posted something there and haven't sold a damn one...sigh. But when I post a freebie in HERE there's a thundering herd ;o). I think I'll look for a new line of work...hehehehe. Laurie

With such a large group of humans you're never going to please everyone. And with many topics being "borderline" and humans making the decisions, there are going to be mistakes and people will get upset. It just happened to me ;) I don't have any trouble with the Product Showcase; I go there right after reading new posts in the Poser Forum. If people want to see what's up-and-coming and what's just been released they go to the Product Showcase. If people aren't going there, they must not want to see it. What's wrong with that? I don't know the answer. Maybe anarchy!

To be honest the first place I visit is the store, than I come here. Do what you will, but I believe if you open it up there is going to be a lot of complaining within a week's time of 9 million wip ads. Marque

Adding another Poser forum may not be the best thing because there might be too many. Maybe have 2 total Poser forums, one for technical discussions and the other for products. Freebies or market place and whatever level of completion it happens to be in. Then there would be less confusion I think.

I don't think free items and commercial items are in the same category at all as far as where announcements for them should be posted. Giving away free stuff is equivalent to sharing a tip or anything for others to use in their Poser work. Sometimes merchants do give away free items to attract attention to their store, but I don't mind that as much because they're at least making a free contribution in exchange for a little advertising. I say just add a larger link so that the Product Showcase forum is easier to find and access. I actually had a heck of a time finding it last night when I was trying to track down Neftis' anime character thread. Please don't consider moving free stuff notices to a commercial thread either; we'll just lose yet more providers of free items in doing so. Thanks, take care. SnowS

Well, I'm cross posting from another thread on the same topic (good grief, this is the topic du jour, isn't it?) I don't know why it is considered such a strain to click on the Product Marketplace....this is the laziest group of people I've ever met. It's a click, no more than that. I go there. I buy as a result of what I see there. I actually like it better than the Poser Forum because the atmosphere is better. I love shopping for stuff...but I'm not going to buy something just because everyone else is nor do I want to be limited to only one vendor because that's the vendor that everyone talks up on the Poser forum. Yes, the Milleneum cat is cool. So is the Southwestern theme from RuntimeDNA. So is nearly everything at PoserWorld. So are the sales at PoserPros. So is the Renderosity Marketplace. And Sams3D models. And Lyne's animals. And others who never show up in the Poser forum. As a buyer, I don't want to see merchants chased off because of inertia on the part of the community. Of course free stuff goes faster than stuff with a price tag (let's see...why would that be? Oh yeah, it's free!) I know it's a struggle for anyone to make money on the marketplace...it's a struggle for me to find things that I want to buy sometimes. I make the effort because I enjoy it. I don't need to be spoon fed products...apparently that's what some community members want. I just want to be able to see what the merchants have to offer and not have them harrassed when they are trying to produce something new. I don't mind going to another website to buy something special, but I have to know where it is for me to do so. And, hey, you would be aghast at how much I spend on this hobby...but doesn't the fact I'm willing to pay for product give me any kind of vote in the matter? There must be a solution. But given the overall attitude around here, I doubt if any change would be accepted.

"And, hey, you would be aghast at how much I spend on this hobby..." I'm aghast at home much I spend on this hobby...LOL! ;o). We're all nuts ;o). Laurie

Make that HOW much. I'm nuts and I can't type either. The double threat ;o). Laurie

By the way, Laurie. It's not true that you've not sold anything. I know I bought your beautiful textures.

Why was the Product Showcase Forum and the corresponding gallery created in the first place? Mabye the history should be reviewed to remind everyone of its purpose. I can't remember all of the reasons (anyone around that does???), but I do remember one of the reasons it was created -- to give people marketing products at other sites a place to advertise their products. There was a big deal made about people from PoserPros and RDNA posting ads in the Poser forum. [If I am wrong about this, please correct me.] It is fair that all commercial ads be placed in the Product Showcase forum. I have seen several WIP posts by merchants in that forum. And dialyn is right. Is it really that hard to scan one more forum? Geez....

"By the way, Laurie. It's not true that you've not sold anything. I know I bought your beautiful textures." I know that dialyn ;o). I was referring to the latest set :o). It's not here in the MP, it's elsewhere. Laurie

The subject line usually gives away a WIP or an ad... don't like it?... Well hell's bee, skip the whole thing and read the next topic! How hard can that be? I am more tired of all the whining in this place.

I forgot... I like your idea of the checkmark, Dave!

Ah...now, see, the problem is you can't tell me which set because that would be seen as advertising. I can ask and be in the right forum but you can't answer. Isn't that a delicious irony? And it points to the problem I see. If someone asks a question and a merchant has a product that would be the answer, the merchant is accused of advertising in their attempt to reply. They can, of course, IM their response but then only one person knows there is an answer to the question. It's a bit nonsensical when the only answer that is allowed to remain has to include the word "Daz." LaurieA, so I'll guess and you can nod yes or no..does the Daz morphing t shirt have anything to do with the textures?

Geez. If we're gonna go with the Product Showcase concept, why not push for commercial free TV while you're at it. dave

What's wrong with advertising anyway? I bet most of the people here have asked or have wondered (if they are shy) where they can find this or that for Poser. Give me a break....

This is really turning into a sad situation....you know I for one (as a merchant)am thankful that we have our own forum...There are people here at the MP that sell their products and half goes to the merchant and the other half goes to Renderosity....for Renderosity to even give me a place to advertise for FREE...is a blessing to me. As a purchaser, I again say as dialyn says, if I want something I don't mind going to the Product Showcase to scope out what is new and I don't mind going to other stores either. My habit is just as big as everyone else and I can see it from 2 different sides. But I do agree with dialyn, it doesn't really take much to get to the product show case forum....maybe for some newbies it is difficult to even know there is one, but I know once they find it...they go there alot. Sharen

kbennett:"but renders which are nothing but 'here's the face, here's the body, look at this morph, here are the clothes for my new character' are not okay. Because they're advertising and as such belong in Product Showcase." Then how come I see a lots of renders here WIP ,Only pure renders....And you don't move them to the gallery? LoL This is YOUR definition of a WIP...now here is mine: Sharing the developpement of something with others. WIP meaning that it is not a finished work yet! Yesterday my post was stated as a WIP.I am sorry of all the comotion it causes, I think it sinply demonstrate how deep the situation is.With all the work I put on my job, I tend to be a little hyper sensitive...but geeeez I am only human after all!

Neftis, you work is always beyond belief. It is so magnificient I sometimes can't even believe it has been done. Like I said, I do not mind seeing anybody's WIP, anywhere, but I do understand the rules and have no problems with them. I understand how you must feel, seeing all of the great works and what you have done for Renderosity and this whole community...try not to take it to heart so. You have a good point on the gallery too...but I do that alot, never thinking it is good enough for the gallery I post in forums. But you do have a point there. Sharen

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12375&Form.ShowMessage=1396248

All this hoopla has soured me on even going to the marketplace here. Think I'll give it a rest and go to the photoshop forum where I can learn something, and do my shopping elsewhere for a bit. Marque

Why is it so difficult to click on a second forum? The Showcase forum was created to remove 50-100 posts a day from this forum and make it easier for those seeking to LEARN to find useful threads. People seeking to BUY can go window shop the Showcase and know everything is for sale. Think about it for a moment .. do you really want to weed through 100-300 posts EVERY DAY to find what you want to read? people complain about this forum moving too fast already ... In the end wether or not to move a thread comes down to the opinion of the moderator. We have in the past let a certain amount of posts get by. However, if one artist repeatedly posts obvious commercial products, then we start moving things. Do not abuse the system and everyone will do fine Lyrra the Cranky

Lyrra:If you refer at yesterday's post I did...it was on the right forum! . Someone just decided to make it a comercial concern and hop! the mod just assumed... I can agree posting in the good forums...Just don't decide or assume for me please when nothing was stated as comercial.

I weed thru posts anyway to read what I want. dave

neftis, If your product will indeed be free, by all means post it here. If a moderator (me in this case) mistakenly assumes that such a complicated and excellent piece of work MUST be a sale item, then please contact a moderator to get the post put back where it belongs. We are only human, and make mistakes. My apologies if I have offended you, by assuming that your figure was for sale. Also, my email to you notifiying about the thread move appears to have bounced. Lyrra

Like I said in the PM i sent you, this product has not been stated as anything! I avoided to talk about if it's was going to be free or for sale BECAUSE it was a WIP post! Now, if the post sounded commercial, it's because some people started to talk about commercial comments...but in anyway it was comming from me!! THIS is why I make a big deal out of it...You moved my post when it was not justify.

The point is Lyrra, as a moderator you shouldn't have assumed. I think that's the main complication with that action. And hence why the thread removal was unjust. But what's done is done. Lyrra assumed and made a mistake. She apologized for it. I doubt it will happen again. Neftis, you have every right to still be upset about it, but mistakes are made.

Like Dave, I also weed thru posts to find something of interest to me. I don't have the time or interest to read every single post by every single person.

I do NOT want WIP's in the Product Showcase. I want only finished products there. It's a showcase not a technical forum. If there are WIPS it should be for products almost complete. WIPs of products, freebies, or just ideas for such, in a very early stage where we can actually give FEEDBACK as to their development belong in the Poser forum. And, damn, if Capsces wants to show one of her delightful renders, whether it includes a product or not, I want to see it HERE in the Poser forum, where others can ENJOY it. Allowing a handful of noisy complainers to create such havoc is ridiculous. Rules Rules Rules. Those complainers should instead concentrate on their home associations...create rules stating that their neighbors houses can't be green or they can't have a vegetable garden and leave us alone.

Spit .. my feelings as well.

Spit...I live in one of those neighborhoods with the busy bodies running around looking into your yard to se if your grass is the right color and stuff....it just plainly sucks, for lack of a better word at this moment...in fact, I told them to get out of my private yard in America...and leave me and my American family alone. I agree with the WIPS beinbg here...that's why I suggested a way to really make them visible for folks that don't want to look at them....or a quick blurp here with a link to the wip forum...which we really don't need, but it was a thought.... I too, when going to the Showcase Forum, which I just found 3 months ago or so, and I've been here for quite some time, want to see items that are either released or about to be released withing a day or so....not some WIP that is months off...

As of right now there are damn few WIP's in the Product Showcase. If you ask people showing an item not out yet abut changes, they usually say, its already in testing. There's no feedback. which is the whole point of a WIP. Feedback means we as purchasers get something to say about what gets made to sell-- maybe even something to say about the quality. I don't understand the blithe willingness to give this up. Some people only use freebies, don't buy anything, and don't seem to know how to work the back buton on the browser either. WIP are helpful for a community and could even up the quality of the marketplace which has dipped to an all time low in not just my opinion. Emily

Got here late, and all I have to say is... DAVE-SO STOP READING MY MIND! :) (or turn the page already!) Thank you.

Dialyn, I would think that if a merchant has a product that answers a question or provides a solution for somebody, they should definitely mention it or include a picture or suggest a link, etc. I don't think the goal was to prevent the existence of advertising, but rather to organize the Renderosity site in a more meaningful manner, so those looking to learn about or purchase products can do so without weeding through conversation, and those looking to discuss Poser usage and techniques can more easily get answers to their questions or share useful information without weeding through products for sale. Sometimes these will overlap, of course.