Will, I read over the threads again and it seems very much to me like a MOD, not by neftis' request, moved the WIP. There is a post in that thread from neftis asking them to remove the thread as it does not belong in the Product Showcase. So, I stress again my original post... I this is the case, then neftis has been horribly mistreated and I want to see a justification of these actions. No discertion was made between whether or not this item was free or commercial or even just a personal project that she wasn't going to be sharing. There have been no ammendments to the forum policy that I've seen posted regarding works in progress that have not been classified as free or commercial yet... Anyway, the bulk of what I had to say I removed with my first post, but the moderators can still read it, and I still feel that if this was the case, that neftis' Work in Progress got removed unfairly, unjustly, and wrongfully. Change the policy or get your s**t straight. Don't discriminate against or target a specific artist. I think whoever moved that thread, since it seems quite clear to me now after reading everything over again (or at least trying to) that neftis didn't ask for it moved it herself, owes her a massive public apology.

Exactly what I reply just before they delate or 'moved' your post again.... It has been stated as a WIP...and someone just 'decided' to make it comercial...they just 'assumed' but the point is that in this post nothing was comercial..I was truly only sharing my WIP with others.

Suddenly someone comes in, and decide for me? Sure enough this character would have been for sale depending of the response...But there was nothing commercial in this post about it.This is my point of view and I most certainly stick to it!

Yes, neftis, exactly what I mean.. (will confused me a bit on the last one, and I assumed maybe I missed something... been working non-stop on M3 stuff for days and have gotten a bit delirious) They had no right to do that and I think it was outrageous to do so and they owe you an apology.

I requested that my original post on this subject be removed.... assuming that I was wrong about what happened with that thread and was just getting heated over nothing... Since it turns out I was not correct, I opened a new thread.

What I mosly want would be people not to assume on my behalf...I hope my english is ok here...it's hard to express myself when it's not my mother language. but please...don't make desisions for me...Oh geez I am just tired...well i have to relax... damn...what a mess!!!!

..put your feet up, watch some TV. Stop stressing over this stuff for a little while. Go relax for a couple of hours and forget that Poser and Renderosity, and even the computer exists... and just vegetate. You'll feel a lot better.

"Sure enough this character would have been for sale depending of the response." Sounds like, I wont consider it commercial until I know enough people are going to buy it..

To be perfectly honest this site is getting worse
I have been coming here for years albeit in a different name.
And all it seems now is making money instead of quality,and some admin are like the secret police.
Now i always thought this was a site for artists,
and if a wip is posted here what difference does it make
Please please make this site great again like it used to be and not somewere for so called wanna be artists who ruin it for others

And the same goes for nudity,if you are an artist then you should not be intimidated by the human naked body
and if you go the way of but what about the children then you and ppl like you are fools for beleiving that the naked human body is any thing to be ashamed of ,far from it wether it be thin or fat the body is one of beauty and should be celebrated
thanksl for lokking
seeklight

well I apologise for my own confusion and causing yours DraX as i infered from Neftis's post (#91) that she was requesting removal from the poser forum. I also am a bit delerious trying to get stiff done for M3 ;) but guess it turns out that the thread was moved before that and she was requesting removal from the showcase. Sorry neftis that you too were dragged into this controversy, and yes there should be some hard and fast rule we can go by. as far as WIP its kind of a gray area that should be addressed directly. if the majority of people dont want a wip for commercial work in this forum then so be it, but then those that post WIP of free items had best post that those items are to be free and stick to it. I believe in following the rules of a forum, there is too much disruptions in this forum as it is. but if there isn't a rule that says what can and cant be posted as far as WIP then what can we do but post as we interprate the rules.

ddblood, there was absolutely nothing commercial about it when she posted it. it violated no rules, and said nothing about that she would distribute it in any way shape or form. No, given the response that she got on that character, I think she'd be a fool not to sell it and be costing herself a great deal of money, however...... At the time it was posted there was no inkling of commercial intent, no mention of freestuff, nothing. She had created a wonderful figure that she wanted to share images of with the community because she was proud of what she'd accomplished. And I would have been too. And THIS is why I feel that the administration/moderators, whoever it was that arbitrarily decided to move her post to the Product Showacase was wrong and owes her an apology and the rest of us an explanation, and I'm still waiting for it.

Lyrra posted in the other thread (don't make me find the link) that she mistakenly assumed that her thread was a commercial WIP. That fine and dandy, but I think that leaves another question... how much should the mods be able to interpret these things? I mean, there was no mention of the word sale anywhere in Neftis's posts... so where do the mods, and us draw the line?

some admin are like the secret police You're telling me!

well I tend to dissagree tha lyrra or any of the mods need to appologise for doing what a number of people were asking them to do. often Mods are pulled in two directions, by different factions and must go on gut instinct as to what to do, no neftis did not indicate that the model was going to be commercial but neither did she indicate that it would not be, even after the question was brought up. which puts the mods in a position to have to make a judgment call. perhaps either the staff should make a specific ruling on wip, particularly potentially Commercial WIP, or put it to a referendum by the membership.

WOW! this is getting soooooo Touchy to post in here...be carefull or what you put in the post or it will offend some people....and be carefull what you don't say...It might offend others or people will put words into your mouth! Really?? it is getting scary posting in here!Not a joke guys... I am truly affraid to post after all this! mess mess mess.... can we just ask for a little more respect and consideration? PPFFffffff

Neftis, Drax,

I was following Neftis' original thread and I understand the actions of the mods. If they hadn't moved the thread, others would have seen it as unfair, because their WIP threads were moved even though they didn't necessarily admit a project was commercial.

Several people posted follow-up questions to Neftis' original post. She answered most of them, but for some reason, she didn't answer the question, "is this item going to be free, or for sale?"

Giving Neftis the benefit of the doubt, we can assume she chose to ignore that question because she had yet to decide whether or not the figure would be commercial. On the other hand, what's to stop somebody from posting endless commercial product WIPs and simply never confessing that the product is going to be commercial?

I respect your work and think you are great contributors to the community. I use techniques discovered by Drax daily and Neftis is the reigning Queen of Hair modeling (and now cute cartoon chicks). I do not wish to offend either of you. But, I don't think anybody was being singled out. I think the mods are trying to be fair in a difficult situation and they do not make the rules.

It is inevitable what is happening here. I've been an Op in channels for years and in each one without exception this type of thing happens. The Mods are always adding to their authority, exerting more control until finally people stop talking altogether. It's a power trip and it always leads to the destruction of the channel because its so easy to split away and for new ones. Websites are no different, Renderosity will be struggling for its very survival within 2 years because so many people will have been chased away.

C69,

The mods have always said "free" is okay. Please post a link to another commercial product WIP recently posted here in the Poser Forum that has not been moved to Showcase, because I cannot find one.

No matter what happens Neftis, you look damn good. And so does your work.

C69,

Yep, I'd say that qualifies. I've noticed many commercial WIP posts often last a few hours before the mods find them, as was the case with Neftis'. I suspect this one will also soon vanish. If it doesn't, then all the commercial WIP posters have a genuine complaint.

It takes a Mod a few hours to read through all of the posts when they first log on for the day, as it takes most of us. They can't skim but have to READ all of them, because often the contentious issues are buried 18 posts down. If a Mod doesn't get to everything within the first 5 minutes, can you really yell at them? Well, yes, you obviously do. Just last week it was pointed out to EVERYBODY and their cousin that commercial works weren't allowed in here. We had such a glut of Mike3 teaser images that it was hard to find anything else to look at. A heap of posts got moved. Lyrra posted an ADMIN thread to call attention to the matter. Some of you don't like the rule, but it was highlighted yet again. What is it going to take... a mile high sign with flashing lights? Next issue... some people are newbies and mistakenly post commercial products in here because just they don't know any better. Other people are professionals who KNOW what the rules are and STILL try to skirt them in the hopes of making a few more sales. Teaser images masquerading as WIPs are still teaser images and we can smell them from a mile away. You guys are already filling the galleries with your product shots... ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!! Some of us don't like cheaters. I have purchased from Neftis before (at least 4 hair models), however I have removed her Russian furs from my shopping list. Not for lack of quality, not because of her posting in here, but because she is still arguing the issue. I have a choice who I buy from. People who repeatedly argue the same issue with Mods are down so low on my list that they won't get to the top for a long, long time. People who call Mods secret police and whine that they are being mistreated are even lower. This goes for ALL of you who are complaining (yet again) that you can't fill this Forum with your ads... and trying to sneak them through when somebody isn't looking. This is the behavoir of obstinate 6-year-olds, and is hardly what I'd expect from an adult. Finally, a WIP should be clearly that... something which is in the beginning stages where user input is necessary before continuing. When it is so close to Market that the only thing left is a few tweaks and making the MATs... and all the poster wants is acclaim and attention and customers opening their wallets, it is no longer a WIP. Asking "do you like the red one or the green one or both?" when the items are finished isn't a WIP... that is a marketing tactic. Asking "how can I get the texture centered on the dress?" when there is a problem to be solved, and the item is obviously still in pieces, is evidence of a WIP. Carolly

A mile high sign with flashing lights would be good as long as it's only a WIP. Insert rim shot Oh... Oh.... I'm killing myself tonight. LOL

Carolly, I think you have completely missed the point.. She's not the one arguing it here... a non-commercial post got moved to Product Showcase and myself and a few others were outraged by this, feeling that neftis was poorly treated. She wasn't cheating at all, regardless of what other people made her thread out to be, including you.

My apologies, Drax. I didn't know Neftis was giving that little cutie away! Apologies to you too, Neftis!

Ugh, confusion abounds lately... Migal, Neftis hadn't been doing anything with her yet... she hadn't even decided what she wanted to do with it yet. She simply had accomplished soemthing great, and wanted to post her work as an artist because she was proud of it. Regardless of where it eventually ended up (in a store, in freestuff, or just in neftis' galleries), it was only a work-in-progress... not a commercial post and not something she planned as a product (at least from the impression I was given from her posts and from talking to her). It was others who in that thread started asking her how much and offering their hard earned money for it.

I just have to speak up one final time on this whole subject then give it up as being a raw deal that just won't get fixed! I came into the forum tonight after all of this bruhua about Neftis' fantastic figure and what do I find... Three ot the first Five posts at the top of the forum when I entered are MORE COMMERCIALLY SLANTED than anything Neftis posted. At least one of them blatantly stated the company name and that it was a work in progress of a commercial product, just that a price hadn't been decided upon yet! All of these posts had several follow ups, WITHOUT one warning or outcry about them being commercial! Now I'm not trying to point fingers at these artist/merchants, or bring a hard time down on them, but it just goes to show how little control there is in this situation, and that the "population" of this list really doesn't see the commercials as a "BAD THING"! I really think that a COMMERCIAL FLAG on the posts, EXACTLY like the one for NUDITY and that can be swithced by those uninterested in commercials is the only workable and FAIR way to handle things! Otherwise there is no way the MODS or anyone else can FAIRLY treat ALL of the commercial artists. Some will always be so excited about their current project that they will post it here so everyone can see their latest creation, and this argument will go on forever!!! Let the Product Showcase forum go and use the commercial flag, it has a much better chance of keeping things in order and out of a flame war! As I said, this is my last publec work on this subject, these are, of course, my opinions and I will be glad to discuss them by IM or email (if anyone is interested) but I will NOT make another public post on the matter! It is all beginning to become an endless loop of someone breaking the rules (however well intentioned, and I believe firmly that it IS excitement over the project that causes the lapses!) and others (myself included!) howling about it! Until a fair solution is enacted there is only one other way to break the cycle, silence on the matter, and I choose to take that route. Sorry for the long winded rant and please note that this is NOT targeted at any individual, but at the process and problem as a whole. mike

Drax,

I'm proud of my work, too.

LOL, Migal I didn't say you weren't. I'm proud of mine, too... and I would have loved to get feedback from the populace on some add-ons I'm making for my current product that will likely be free, but am now hesistant to post them on the off-chance people'll say that it should be in the Product Showcase, even though some of them are stand-alone

If you're going to have a rule then it needs to be applied consistently. Allowing a loophole for "undecided" simply invites abuse (and I'm not talking about Neftis here) and will ensure that this becomes another festering wound and source of controversy. Either ditch the rule or make it hard and fast, if you're not sure whether you are going to sell it then don't post it here. I don't think anyone would complain if something in the commercial section ended up being free. Perhaps a compromise would be to allow a single post with just a link to the Showcase if they want to guage the marketability of something. The problem is everyone wants to put everything in the Pose forum because it gets the overwhelming majority of viewers. If that's what people want then simply make it a free for all and eliminate the restrictions. It doesn't matter which way it's decided but having a rule with such an obvious way to circumvent it (even unintentionally) merely invites situations like this with perceptions of favoritism etc. and the resulting bad feelings which we already have more than enough of.

Forgot to mention that if a genuine technical question is involved thet it's certainly appropriate here. Even if it's regarding a commerical product in progress, everyone can potentially benifit from learning to solve the problem. The key word is "genuine." As Carolly said, there has to be an element of judgement here. If Mr. or Ms. well known and talented merchant posts, "Dearie me, how do I texture the buttons on this lovely outfit I'm making for the Marketplace? Here are four 360 degree views so you can see the problem. I need the buttons to match the array of lovely 4000x4000 textures which are included with MAT poses, but I just can't seem to get it to work...", then it probably isn't a genuine question.

Absolutely correct, and thanks for making the point again. If you've got a genuine problem or need help with Poser the post is on topic and more than welcome, regardless of whether or not it's a commercial product. And I like the counterexample too ;) Kev.

"3. Re: So you move a work in progress (Repost) by neftis on 8/22/03 13:26 [snip] Sure enough this character would have been for sale depending of the response...But there was nothing commercial in this post about it.This is my point of view and I most certainly stick to it!" I haven't seen your product, or any other thread, but that quote alone appears to show the commercial activity usually known as "market research".