Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12357&Form.ShowMessage=1431325

members can't do anything about it...oh yes they can you say? If enough protest, Renderosity will change their policy back.....no they won't...it's about making money....

You're right Dizzie...the new policy is pretty much set in stone, however, members have the right to know how merchants here are treated, why they're suddenly leaving & where they are going. Some members may not care, others will and some may simply let their wallets speak for them.

This topic has apparently raised the ire of quite a few R'ositarians ...

So ...

I wonder if the Mods would consider posting:
(in this forum - since this is where it started)

What was done ...

• and -

Why it was done.

Just a thought ... ... from the ol' grey-haired Doc. ;=]
(who enjoys R'osity and is concerned with it's well-being)

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

I'm sure the merchants will make sure their customers know where to find them...I just hope they will continue to post their new products in the Products Showcase forum so we can all keep up with what and where they are doing....:>) I wouldn't find half the products I buy if it weren't for that forum cause I don't have the time to go around to every place and see what's new in their store.....I visit that forum everyday...

I don't think this is within the control of Renderosity. There are so many similar sites now, selling tens of thousands of similar products, that the market is oversaturated. It's more of an expression of supply and demand - too many products competing with each other for a stagnant market. If it's true that Renderosity has 7,000 products for sale, most of which don't sell, then the law of supply and demand will take effect. Renderosity - and similar sites - will have to cut corners to carry all the overhead items, or they may be forced into really Draconian cutbacks. So they apparently decided that one corner they would cut is to decrease the merchant's cut from 60% to 50% if the merchant's volume was low on exclusive items, possibly in an attempt to recoup costs of carrying non-selling overhead items.

These cuts can never be pleasant or seem fair to those they affect, which is how capitalism works. A communal system would make everyone happier, but communal systems don't survive in competition with capitalist systems. Merchants may get hurt in the process (leaving Renderosity and losing sales), and some may disappear (leaving Renderosity and finding there is no other market for their items).

Many of us chose to be exclusive here due to the fact that we have been in this community for quite some time and regard this place as a second home. Most of us started out as members, posting images in galleries and making new friends. We were comfortable here, and felt we should give something back to the site. How we have been treated so far only tells us that it doesn't pay to be loyal. Mateo, there are other markets out there with better splits, and they are considering to furthur up the merchant's share when possible. How they are able to do this I am not sure, but clearly their method of operating is different. The thing renderosity has however, is volume. They know it, and they use it to bait us. The merchants know they will lose out if they leave, and those who stay will have to make do with all the unfair practices and standards, but stay they will and swallow their pride they will. Renderosity knows this well. About the capitalist system, keep in mind that this place is supposed to be first and foremost a comumunity. It isn't hard to figure out, just look at the logo on this site. Fine if they want to change things the way they want but I all I can say is that it doesn't feel so much like a community anymore.

I just don't understand the logic. Cutting exclusive merchants makes them want to leave or sell their stuff other places and less traffic for Rend. Why didn't they UP the amount they cut to excluvie merchants as an insentive to not sell other places, and then cut DOWN the amount that non exclusive mechants get. non exclusive mechants would then have an insentive to NOT sell at other sites and may switch to exclusive giving them more money and Rend more traffic because the items would only be here. Also an advertising marketing tactiv then because Rend could advertise #### of exclusive items only available in Rend market place. I just don't understand why taking a baseball bat to the back is supposed to help the support of the site.

DarkMatter; Since I was a member first, then an artist, then a merchant, and so far I've managed to keep a (fairly) level head, let me make you aware of a few things you may not be aware of: (Note to Admins: I don't think I'm violating anything in the TOS here. I'm just addressing what appears to be an emerging concern of the Poser community.) 1. No, it's not just about the money. It's about how merchants are treated and what they're getting for the money they're expected to pay out. There are merchants involved in this who have been incredible sources of knowledge and assistance to the community. 2. This matter has been in discussion for some time, long before any of the information was made 'public', and long before merchants started pulling out en masse. We provided logical reasons why the recent decisions were poorly made, offered viable suggestions for alternatives, and were (for the most part) ignored. 3. We tried forming a conference to resolve the problems, through the channels we are provided as merchants. We sat in the Merchant's Chat Room for more than two hours discussing the issues at hand. The only Renderosity official who I saw had the stones to show up was Clint. (Hats off to you for that Clint) 4. A good number of the merchants that are upset go way back in Renderosity's history. A good number chose Renderosity as a broker out of site loyalty...there were already better money arrangements to be had elsewhere. But because we like the site, and the community, we chose to be here. Most will still be here as part of the community, they just won't sell here anymore. So it's not about inciting a revolt, it's not about hurting Renderosity, it's not about getting what we can out of people. It's about Merchants who work hard to make products and help their customers getting what they really do deserve: respect and fair treatment. I'm sorry you can't seem to understand that. I hope I've been able to clarify it a little. But hey, you're entitled to your opinion as well, and I can at least respect your opinion with a cool head and common courtesy. A shame you can't do the same for us. David 'ChromeTiger' Hebbe Presto Productions

Why didn't they UP the amount they cut to excluvie merchants as an insentive to not sell other places, and then cut DOWN the amount that non exclusive mechants get. Hmmm ... that might backfire. Then everyone would become "exclusive" and it wouldn't solve what appears to be a dilemma. >> There are so many similar sites now, selling tens of thousands of similar products, that the market is oversaturated. Agreed ... and it's probably a result of this oversaturation that this is all happening. It's unfortunate that longstanding relationships are going to suffer.

One point that seems to be missing is that R'osity deals in "virtual" inventory, not real goods. If the issue is finances and holding products that do not sell above and beyond their costs, then why make a policy change that effects Merchants' exclusivity and not the products themselves?

The claim of higher "overhead" costs does not seem to explain much. Even if R'osity had 6000 products that did sell, they would still need the same number of staff, servers, etc, to operate. Or, is R'osity also laying off staff to make up some of the perceived loss revenues?

How much money does it actually cost to have a file on a server selling for $5 (for example), that gets a couple of downloads per month? With the price of storage per MB decreasing while storage volume increases, I cannot fathom this being much of a problem. As the inventory decreases, the actual cost per file transfer increases, so, IMHO, it would appear that the current decision is achiveing the opposite effect: Less merchants = less products = less sales = less revenue = higher cost of business.

The solution of "oversaturation" and "competition" has always been the same: Make sure that you offer the best products at the best prices and encourage (not discourage) more commerce through the site. Here again, the current "solution" seems to be more adverse than beneficial.

There must be another (logical?) reason.

The claim of higher "overhead" costs does not seem to explain much. But it does ... it requires server space, server maintenance, extra time to perform backups, and a lot of other things we probably don't think about. More space equals more cost to maintain. >> The solution of "oversaturation" and "competition" has always been the same: Make sure that you offer the best products at the best prices and encourage (not discourage) more commerce through the site. A more likely solution would be to remove a product if it doesn't sell a minimum quantity or dollar amount after a certain period of time. This would solve the storage issue, and also entice brokers to increase quality and marketability.

I really don't grok their business sense.

I think both Cyberstretch and Deecey are right. It probably doesn't cost much for Rosity to keep a low-selling product for sale. The expense is probably in the initial testing. However...having a lot of unpopular products on the shelves doesn't help any store, real or virtual. People don't like looking through a lot of clutter for what they want. This may be what Rosity is trying to address, with their extremely exclusive exclusivity contracts, and the new MP setup, which has tons of ads. Deecey's solution is a good idea, too. It's what Google does with its ads. If your ad doesn't get clicked on enough, they yank it, and give you your money back. Everyone's copying them because it's worked so well for them. So Renderosity might consider something like that, too. Of course, you'd run the risk of discouraging new merchants who might one day be top merchants. But that's business... OTOH - part of Rosity's appeal is that there's so much here. Its greatness strength is also its weakness. And it may be that the revenue problems are only temporary. The recession is proving brutal for many businesses, online and off. They are finding it nearly impossible to raise prices, because consumers are so value-oriented these days. If prices are raised, the shoppers simply go elsewhere. And that's very easy on the net, because it's so easy to find information. A lower price is just a Google away.

I wonder how much brokers can do to help the storage issue. Business sense is a good lesson for all of us. Here's my thinking on how we brokers can help this issue as well ... Let's say I make a hair texture that turns out really well. It saves space in storage, and costs in downloading for both Renderosity and the customer, if I offer the hair in 5 choice hair colors, verses 50 hue variations. Though it is cool to have variety, I wonder how many people use the extra rainbow colors. When the only difference is a change in hue, it is probably quicker for a customer to shift the hue rather than to download all of the extra files associated with the color changes. Tatoo textures ... instead of several different full body textures where the only variation is a tatoo, put the tatoos on a separate layer entirely by itself. Leave the rest of the image transparent. Having an image with only the tatoo creates a much smaller file to download ... PLUS, customers have the added benefit of using them on any texture they like. See my point? Maybe business sense can find solutions to both sides of this dilemma. 8-)

"But it does ... it requires server space, server maintenance, extra time to perform backups, and a lot of other things we probably don't think about. More space equals more cost to maintain."

Servers are nothing more than glorified workstations. Since everyone here, obviously, uses computers: Does it cost you (a general you, not a specific you) any more when you create a new piece of digital artwork and store it on your hard drive? Do you have to perform extra maintenance when you have more files? Backups can be done incrementally, therefore, if the files exist in the current backup set, they need not be backed up at all and result in less time, not more.

There are other associated variable costs (ie, bandwidth, access charges, salaries, etc), but most costs with running a server are fixed regardless of how many people use them. For example: If a server's capacity is 1000 connections at once, it costs the same to purchase the server, set it up, run it, maintain it, etc, regardless if there are 10, 100, or 1000 connections. Therefore, in most cases, it makes no sense to claim changes in "overhead" if virtual products are not selling. You can scale up/down your operation and costs depending upon the current business volume.

It still does not explain why the change to the Merchant Exclusivity Agreement vs Product Placement.

Does it cost you (a general you, not a specific you) any more when you create a new piece of digital artwork and store it on your hard drive? No, but then again I don't need a high capacity, fast RAID drive that has the power to handle multiple bandwidth requests to download a single file.

"No, but then again I don't need a high capacity, fast RAID drive that has the power to handle multiple bandwidth requests to download a single file."

For example in hard drive costs, different price comparisons using one retail site (PriceWatch):

• EIDE: A 250GB EIDE drive costs $218. $218/250GB = $0.87/GB.
• Firewire: A 200GB Firewire drive costs $223. $223/200 = $1.12/GB
• SCSI drives: A 181.6GB SCSI drive is listed for $812. $812/181.6GB = $4.47/GB.
• Serial ATA (the latest connection technology): 250GB drive costs $293. $293 / 250GB = $1.17/GB.
• USB: A 180GB drive costs $187. $187/180GB = $1.04/GB.

So, the highest $/GB drive technology is $4.47/GB (SCSI). If a product is selling for $5, and R'osity takes 50% ($2.50), two sales equal the cost of 1GB of space. How many products are 1GB or more in size?

"Servers are nothing more than glorified workstations." Really...Wow - I've been a Systems Engineer for many years an in the industry for over 22 years. I can locate a lot of differences in the systems (servers) I have designed and implemented over the years vs a "Workstation". Lets see...how many workstations can deal with 4+ processors? Like 6 and 8 way systems. Hot swap power supplies with 3 total 2 running and a hot spare. Dual PCI chanels for failover. dual fibre network cards.. one on each PCI channel (Failover) Fibre Optic connections (Dual) from the server to the RAID5 fibre storage array. Dual power feeds to the rack from differant electric companies to assure uptime. I could go on... No need. Clint

Let me see if I can rebut, using your "differences":

• "4+ processors? Like 6 and 8 way systems" OS and motherboard/backplane dependent.
• "Hot swap power supplies with 3 total 2 running and a hot spare." Chasis and Motherboard/Backplane dependent.
• "Dual PCI chanels for failover" Motherboard/Backplane dependent.
• "dual fibre network cards.. one on each PCI channel (Failover)" Motherboard/Backplane dependent.
• "Fibre Optic connections (Dual) from the server to the RAID5 fibre storage array." OS and Motherboard/Backplane dependent.
• "Dual power feeds to the rack from differant electric companies to assure uptime." Building electrical wiring, not system-dependent.
• "I could go on..." But you know that anyone can build a server or a workstation, even of the specs you mentioned, by assembling the parts.

Case inconclusive.

"Case inconclusive." Indeed. I have a Dell PowerEdge Server under my desk, that I use for web testing purposes. It doesn't have any of those server "differences" but is sold by Dell as a server nonetheless. And it did a great job of serving up PoserPros for it's first few months of life. ;) Takes all kinds, depending on your needs.

Maybe I should read more prior posts first. :) Yes - Depends on load needs for sure. Several hundred people on line at any given time vs several thousand on-line requires very differant system configurations. Clint

Perhaps you can offer some "non-trade secret" insight into the issue, Clint; if you are allowed to, that is?

BTW: No hard feelings. All members are not just Graphics Artists, though. ;0)

"No hard feelings." for sure...I tend not go in that direction anyway. :) I am a hardware junkie .. I love the stuff. :) I like to talk about it as well. If you talking about Renderosity's server setup...I can say that we have a lot of systems (Servers) running the site. Not 1 or 2 - I think we have 4-5 right now. Load balancing and storage arrays. I need to go see the systems next time I am at the office. My past experience comes from Data General who is now EMC. Building large data warehouse high availability system setups. Usually terabytes of RAID 5 storage using Fibre connections. 5 or more systems with 8-16 procesors and 4+ gb of memory in each system. Really large large setups...man I was in heaven. ;) Clint

Yep Clint, you are bigger. Much bigger. That is one of Renderosity's big selling points, which there is no denying. Thanks for reminding us. :) Server needs depend on much more than number of users, which actually is only an indirect server load. It's those users hitting the software that causes increased server load. And the quality of the software and queries then comes into play. Speaking of queries, seems your database hiccuped this morning and spit out some errors messages to some of the users. One seems particularly disturbing, and maybe you could explain it while you're here: SELECT * FROM Member WHERE UserName='...' AND is_competitor='Y' (The current user's username goes where the '...' is) Is Renderosity now tracking certain users whom it considers "competitors"? Who would these people be? What kind of information are you gathering on these individuals? Just curious. Screenshot here

Hi Russ, I never said anything about our sites when speaking of numbers. I wasnt trying to remind... anyway - I dont want to go there. Really. Yea - We ran DG/UX and MS Server Enterprise along with MS SQL so it ran well...You are correct about the SW as well. We had "Formulas" based on SW in use, peek user loads, etc to help configure the correct hardware needed. Not sure at all about the tracking... I'm not aware of it. Yea - I dont know whats wrong with our DB...it has bogged and died a few times today. :( Clint

"Not sure at all about the tracking... I'm not aware of it." Yeah, I didn't really think you would have involved yourself in the immoral task of tracking your own members' movements. But as you can surely understand, as someone who is surely on such a list, it does concern me as to the information Renderosity might be gathering about me. (TOS updated?) "Yea - I dont know whats wrong with our DB...it has bogged and died a few times today. :(" Just tell Tim he deserves better than MySQL as this stage of Renderosity's life. MySQL should be relegated to small sites like mine. :) You guys oughta move to Oracle or Sybase or DB2 or something. Ah well, just a thought. You certainly have the hardware to heft it up. :) Hope your weekend looks better going forward. Russell

"If you talking about Renderosity's server setup..."

Actually, I was trying to steer the thread back on course regarding the policy change. ;0)

I understand that there are some "negotiations" currently going on which probably preclude public disclosure, but I was wondering if there was something that the collective creative minds of the members could assist with?

"You guys oughta move to Oracle or Sybase or DB2 or something." Ha - Preach on Russ! I hear ya man! yea yea. :) "Hope your weekend looks better going forward." Thanks man...Me too. whew. "I understand that there are some "negotiations" currently going on which probably preclude public disclosure" Hmm...None that I am aware of. A lot of talk about wanting some changes but I think we are moving along as planed. Its like this. There are some changes that the admins and merchants can have a say in. There are some changes that admins and members can have a say in. There are some changes that only admin can make decisions on due to the fact that there is some confidential information needed to make these types of decisions. Without knowing this information a proper change cant be made. The recent changes were made by the admin team in order to keep our company on a healthy road. Businesses must change and adapt over time...true with all businesses....based on trends in the market. Thats what we are doing. Clint

S'ok. I am sure that the picture will become clearer as things develop. :0)

I hope everything works out to mutual satisfaction.

.

CyberStretch, I hope for the same as well. :) Clint

If flesh could crawl My skin would fall From off my bones And run away from here As far from God As heaven is wide As far from God As angels can fly Garbage

from the pics I saw. Clint, you look like your about 22... :-)

Onnetz...hehe.. Thanks man. Just hit 40 in July. YIKES! I still feel 20. ;) Clint

U a cancer clint?

Yea. ;) Shhh...Dont tell anyone. :) Clint

Well ya know,that explains a LOT :P At least ur older then I am.(fellow Cancer)

:D

.

hey im a cancer too :-P

Who would have thought we had so many old crabs here! ;D LOL! Coundn't help it, I'm a Pisces. :)