Most of my writing concerns characters I have played in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Forgotten Realms Campaign setting. The places mentioned, sometimes a person or two mentioned probably belong to somebody else. Yet my stories are just that, mine. Original stories, set in somebody else's world. Is that copyright infringement? Forgive my ignorance on the matter, but I dont have time to be all the things in life that I am, and be a lawyer too. My question is, can I post my writing here without drawing a lawsuit from Wizards of the Coast or something? TIA

I believe you can, but I'll run it past our copyright guru to make sure. WOTC can get pretty obnoxious, I know. :(

Great let me know asap because I would like to post the story. I have tried contacting WOTC to no avail as of yet. I have also asked on their message boards resulting in the usual and predictable smart-arse responses but no real info.

Attached Link: http://www.jonathanfesmire.com/

I recall reading an article about how Paramount was going after Star Trek fans in the early days of the World Wide Web for copyright infringement. They were shooting themselves in the foot, ultimately they decided to call it free advertising and leave it at that from what I read. The cost of tracking down the millions of fan sites and filing litigation was a real quagmire. Who knows if what I read had any truth to it at all, it was on the internet. :)

This is where my research has lead: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=contactinfo/legal They seem to be more concerned about art work. I didn't see anything specifically related to storytelling. So I am entirely at a loss to make a good decision on the matter.

I reccommend making life easier on yourself, and going through a process called... "Filing the serial numbers off." Forgotten Realms is a pretty standard fantasy setting. Rename all the setting specific (as in not invented by you) characters and places (search and replace is excellent for this) and then you are in free and clear legal territory. Likewise the serial numbers can be filed off of Star Trek stories. There you might want to change the physical descriptions of a few of the alien species as well. Best of luck!

That depends on the story. A good Star Trek story can't, at not without incredibly long explanations and reworking, be turned into a non-Trek story. I could see this done for Forgotten Realms though. The Trek stories were fun to write and submitt to the Strange New Worlds anthologies, but for me, I think it'll be better to just post my original articles and excerpts from my published fiction.

I used to write fan fiction, and I enjoyed it very much. There are, in fact, two of the stories I wrote during that time posted on this forum, so I can't take a terribly high road regarding this subject (though there are concerns about intellectual theft, copyright, and trademarks that should be a consideration and often are ignored). And there is some very good fan fiction out there. There is also some dreadful fan fiction being written. All in all, I think anyone who can write good fan fiction is capable of writing good fiction, period. After a year of writing fan fiction, I could write it no more. I was very conscious of stealing someone else's property (which bothers me as an idea) and of not pushing myself to be more original. As an exercise in stimulating myself to write, it was okay, but it didn't, ultimately prove very satisfying. Of course that's just me and I'm pretty much no one in the writing arena since I don't publish and, in truth, don't write very much these days. But if you are committed to fan fiction, ask yourself some questions...what if I didn't lean on someone else's beginnings to build my story...how liberating would that be? Should I be spending that energy and time on something I can never legitimately publish or on something that is truly my own? And you may protest and say, "But I'm not hurting anyone since I'm not selling it." But the person you may be hurting is yourself by putting yourself in a box of someone else's ideas. Just a thought, worth about 1 cent on the open market. And, as a postscript, I'll say that I saw one person who wrote brilliant fan fiction never push herself one step further and I know she could have written amazing novels and been published by now if she had taken that extra step. It wasn't something she wanted and now she's stopped writing. I think we lost an excellent author, and I'm rather sad about that. I could only stand to one side and be awed by her natural talent and saddened that she didn't have enough confidence in herself to go to the next level of originality. But, she did become a lawyer and I am sure she is equally wonderful at that. Perhaps some day she'll come back to writing and I will be there to buy her first book.

Paramount is really protective of their Star Trek stuff. I'd be really cautious of even thinking of deal with them. I agree with lavender on the "filing away the serial numbers" idea. Forgotten Realms never struck me as all that unique so unless there's some piece of history that's critical to your piece, I'd just change things to make it more your own, any way. Cheers!

I think in a strictly legal sense you would be in violation of copyright unless it was a parody. As far as how strict different authors, publishing houses, and producers are varies. Anne McCaffrey, for example, will (and has) shut down fan sites with a vengeance. George Lucas, on the other hand, makes sound and video effects available for download so that people that want to make fan flicks can make them even better. His theory is, if there's a real talent out there he wants to help nurture it along. From other comments here, I'd say WOTC is closer to the McCaffrey model than the Lucas model. So I'd change the names to protect the innocent. :-) jon

Attached Link: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63769

er.. actually I did post it here for about 2 hours. I decided to pull it. I can't knowingly violate any codes and feel good about it.

I'm going to be a bit snarky here, I'm afraid. I guess I just have very strong views on certain things. But don't you think that perhaps a story is stronger if it can stand on it's own two feet, and doesn't need the prop of a "known world"? Why would your story be diminished by changing names? What is it about those names that stregnthens the story, and don't you think it would be nice to have a story where YOU provided that needed something-or-other rather than letting someone else do it? If the person reading the story had never heard of Forgotten Realms, would the story even work for them? I am aware of a published novel that was written as a Star Trek novel, paramount said "not interested" and the serial numbers were then filed off. Unfortunately I forget the title and author. (I'm BAD at names) but I can go ask on my favorite newsgroup, they'll know. Obviously this story was it's own story, complete and entire, and used the Star Trek universe only as a setting, not as a crutch. This seems to me to be an admirable goal. But then, I haven't gone near fanfic with a ten-foot pole since my first two stories when I was twelve, so obviously there is some kind of appeal there that I have missed out on.

Because if you can easily file off the serial numbers and make it a non-Trek story, then was it a "true" Star Trek story in the first place? Certain settings are unique, such as the Trek universe, and it lets writers explore ideas and story lines dependent on the dynamics already set up there. Yes, I suppose I could go back and file the serial numbers off my Trek stories, but that would entail adding in a lot of exposition and history for this new story universe, stuff that already exists in the Trek realm. If you're going to use the Trek universe only as a setting and not make the story truly "Trek," then you really are using a crutch. Why not create your own setting, if the setting isn't important?

There is an appeal to fan fiction if you really love the universe and/or characters and want to somehow expand on some themes or ideas that the original writers seem to be missing out on (and often times for good reasons). But I still think fan fiction should be a step and not a stopping place for a writer. Unless you plan to become a writer that does scripts or novelizations for Star Trek, it's worth exploring the possibilities of your own imagination instead of depending on someone else's.

I fully agree, dialyn. The Trek stories I wrote were specifically for a Trek contest. The rest of my fiction is uniquely my own. I did write a story for a Clark Ashton Smith tribute anthology once, and when it was rejected, I was able to "shave off the serial numbers," though it still retained the feel of Smith's freaky world.

You know, I don't know if you can rightfully classify it as "fan fiction". Because the whole idea that started the Dungeons and Dragons thing, is based upon the players imagination. Creating a character, role playing that character. So writing a story about that character, and the role of that character is not exactly the same as writing a Star Trek story about established characters. The Star Trek Universe, was constructed for making television and movies etc... The Forgotten Realms is a Dungeons and Dragons Campaign world. The whole point of creating it, was to let people create characters and write their own game "modules" within the boundaries defined by the campaign world. Although I am not doing an adequate job of putting my finger on it, there seems to me to be a very fundabmental difference between a Star Trek Fan Fiction peice, and telling the story of your characters adventures in the Dungeons and Dragons Game. I mean I suppose if you created a Cardassian character and wrote stories about that character, an argument could be made that we are talking about the same thing. Except for that basic reason for the two different imaginary universe's to exist. Dungeons and Dragons was created for the purpose. Star Trek was a television show. Maybe someone else can better draw the distinction I refer to. I'm a bit tired at the moment.

When I wrote a fan fiction piece, I took the character and I spun him out into his own adventures. I developed different plot lines and other characters in addition to the ones established in the show. I don't know that it is that far from what you were doing other than it wasn't related a game. Whether or not they are similar, it is the same principle. One is leaning on someone else's creation, and the other is creating your own characters, world, and plots without the aid of the other structure. Both can be creative. But only one belongs to you and you alone.

This is in reply to "I would have had to add all this background" That was kind of my point. Shouldn't the background be in there anyway. Why are you writing stories that can only be understood by people who already know that material, that's so... limiting. And think of all the background including techniques you aren't learning. But I already confessed that I'm way over on the extreme end of this debate. Plenty of people I respect disagree with me. Variety is good as long as nobody shoves any particular branch of variety down someone else's throat, so I'll try not to get too rabid.

In my mind, anyone using D & D is already plagerizing Tolkien, the genius that created this genre in the first place. There were other fantasy writers first of course, but JRRT set the standard and if you look at it, almost everything written in fantasy or sword and sorcery these days is a spin-off of middle earth. If the people that control the copywrite of middle earth really wanted to, they could tie almost all of the fantasy-smiths into knots. The same goes for most of the Star Trek type of sci-fi. Rodenberry created the setting and the universe, many others have followed in his footsteps. Lavender has the correct idea, shave off the serial numbers. In my own fantasy world I rely heavily upon the Tolkien mythos, but try to seperate overt references to the triogy (Hobbits, we don't got no stinkin hobbits.) The same in my sci-fi settings. I have borrowed so heavily from so many that have gone before that I couldn't even begin to give credit where credit is due. Much like a Poser artist who has used 30 or so different props and textures trying to list all the credits. All I can do is try to add a wrinkle or two that will make this particular work a little 'unique' When you get down to it, there are so many geniuses that went before us, and we like sponges soaked up all they taught us. If what we soaked up is deemed an infringment on their work, then they are missing the point.

"If you copy from one work, that's plagerism. If you copy from thirty different works, that's research." Alas, I forget where the quote came from. The essence of creativity is taking something and altering it to make something new. Nobody creates something out of nothing. (Except god, according to some religions, but I think everyone in this forum is human, so we probably don't want to go there.) Story ideas are NOT copyrightable. Steal all the plots you want. Shakespeare did. :) Character types are not copyrightable. Situations are not copyrightable. It isn't really all that hard to avoid breaking the copyright laws if you try. Don't copy anyone else's words. That's it. If you use their situation and characters, change them enough that they are YOUR creations now, not someone elses -- they've got a different color hair, no longer have pointy ears, and a new name. Rename everything. It's that easy, and it makes the story yours and not halfway someone else's. After this quick an easy file job no one can say that you "stole" anything, they'll be forced into just calling you "derivative". Lots of bestselling authors are deriviative, so that doesn't have to worry you, if you don't let it. ;) And your legal situation will be SO much more sound.

Filing off the serial numbers and renaming everything.... The difficulty here, for example in my story. My main character is a Drow Elf. This means a great many things for those in the know of this genre. You cannot simply rename the drow race as something else and expect readers to have the slightest idea as to what this character is. Nor can you go back and using your new name for drow elves, redescribe the entire race which has had tomes upon tomes upon novels written about them, in a chapter or two. To better explain what I mean... here is an excerpt from my story... "The following morning brought the sluggish hungover crew topside. Shouts broke out once again on the deck of the Cutthroat, surprise, and then anger. "Kill it! It be one o' them drow elves! KILL IT NOW AFORE IT BEWITCHES US!" Came a shout of rage with a measure of fear from one of the deck hands. Captain Macmullen and Kallinash arrived simultaneously on deck to investigate. Upon opening one of the crates salvaged from the Soveinas Pride, out spilled what would likely have been the last thing Macmullen ever would have guessed. Standing on the deck, stark naked, with a clear, innocent and uncomprehending expression, was the scrawny form of a tiny dark elf. He was about the size of a 3 year old human. The toddler stared up at the captain with a blank expression, wide eyed. Kallinash could hardly believe his own eyes. The Elvish first mate was perhaps the only one aboard the ship who had ever even seen a drow before. "Arrr don't fret ye chicken livered lubber! It be only a whelp of a drow!" Another deck hand shouted. This drew a burst of tension releasing laughter from the crew. Kallinash was awestruck. Here? In the Northern hemisphere on the deck of a pirate ship, in the middle of the trackless sea stood a Drow Elf. After all of the mayhem the day before, the battle, the blood, the ramming and sinking of a ship, here was a tiny frail waif of a survivor. Of any race it would be very nearly miraculous that he survived, but a drow elf? The odds against it were incalculable, how came he to be here? Kallinash had walked Toril for more than a century, prior to discovering his interest in sea faring, he had been an adventurer. He had been many places, and seen many strange, wondrous, and horrifying things in his life. But this is something he had never witnessed, this was truly and in his mind without question and act of the gods...." People who know and read the genre understand why the situation is so out of the ordinary. The entire short story, assumes the reader has knowledge of the Drow race. Without that reader knowledge, the short story would have to be a Michener-esque novel explaining all the intracacies of the race. So it really isn't as simple as just filing off the serial numbers.

If your example, why does the reader need to know in advance why everyone is surprised to see a drow? Why do they need to know the entire history of drowdom in order to grasp that it is odd to find one pack in a crate on a ship? Why would it take you an encycopedia worth of words to explain? This is precisely what I object to. It isn't that there is something morally wrong with using someone else's universe, as long as they don't mind you doing so, of course, it's that it leads to never learning how to convey background information. If you continually rely on other people's backgrounds, there's this hole in your writing skills. I'll take your situation and transform it into something roughly equivalent but in my world where the readers don't have any idea of what is going on. When the cruel morning arrived with it's piercing rays, the crew stumbled out of their cabins, and slouched ashore, their eagerness to discover what loot they might have aquired during the night overcoming the drawbacks of minor wounds and sore muscles. The first barrel opened had water, valuable out in the desert, perhaps, but not very interesting here on the banks of the Sanuma. They kept opening them though, hoping that the hob raiders had laid in supplies of something a little more spirited, but when the fourth barrel to be broached let out a wail, they jumped back in startled dismay. My curiosity was keen enough that I actually broke into a trot, ignoring the twinges from my injured knee, and somehow it happened that I was the second one to peer into the dimness, and see some scrawy plucked rabbit of a thingy, maybe three hands long, with pale skin and a face that was twisted up in pain. "What is that thing?" Roaric asked. He'd got to the barrel first and had gotten an eyeful of the creature before comming up for air and commentary. "I think it's a troll," I answered, although it didn't seem possible, and I kept running a mental inventory of what else it might be, because surely it wasn't a troll. Roaric was looking at me like I'd spent too much time star-gazing and was ready for padded restraints and a locked room. "A baby troll," I hastened to add. "I thought sunlight was death on trolls," Roaric responded, still clearly unconvinced. "Ah, yes," that would explain why it was making so much noise. I put the lid back over the barrel and the keening faded away to a pittiful high-pitched wimpering. One of the other men stepped up, and pulled the barrel lid out of my hands, and the keening started up again. He stuck his head in the barrel. "Trollspawn, alright." He anounced, emerging with a stupified expression on his dark face. "Probably best to just leave him. Even at the bottom of a barrel he'll get enough sunlight to be stone dead by noon. But if you can't stand the noise of it..." he reached for his sword, and I grabbed his hand. "Put the lid back on," I told him. "I want him alive." He spat on the ground, and wrestled for control of his sword hand. "They're viscious and sneaky and perishing clever, and nigh impossible to kill. We're lucky to find it so young." "Lucky?" I exclaimed, my voice switching octaves in my anxiousness to get through to the man. "We're in the middle of the desert! That isn't luck, that's slagging impossible!" He stepped back and I let go of his hand so that I could grab the lid back, and place it back on the barrel. He looked at me in astonishment, and I could see the gears turning behind his dark face. "So how did a troll spawn make his way out here?" "Naw that's clear enough," Roaric responded. "He came packed in a barrel, and the hobs was carrying him. What I want to know, is why?" Okay, so what do you need to know in that passage that you didn't get?

You are so right. I don't usually read fantasy, but even I want to know why he's in the barrel. Good job!

I exaggerated a bit. It is not that they NEED to know this background info but if they do know before they start reading, the story is more fun. Both to write and IMHO read.

What do we know about Trollkin in your world from that passage? We can list a number of things just from your sample.

Now lets say he is not a trollkin... lets say he is a vampire. Now what do we know about him? We can list considerably more things because everybody knows at least something about Vampires. Sure the nuances change from story to story, and author to author but some basic knowledge is assumed. The story becomes richer because of the background knowledge the reader has. Although one can read it with no background knowledge whatsoever and it will still make sense.

The holes in my writing skills are fully my own fault due to lack of education. Or effort during it. :) But I could not disagree with you more about writing in someone else's universe robbing you of your ability to convey background information. Franklin W. Dixon, J.D. Salinger, Robin Cook, Dean R. Koontz, Norman Mailer and Stephen King all write their stories in the same universe. When it comes to conveying background information less is usually more anyway according to some I have read tell. Anyway, I am not looking to become a professional writer, I just like to write stories for the sake of writing stories. It is fun to share those stories with others from time to time, especially if the readers share the same interests.

Fun to read/write is a different issue, and obviously it depends on the readers and writers in question. What I was objecting to was the apparent claim that you couldn't file the serial numbers off your story. "Drow" ->take file -> "dark elf" (It's even a descriptor you are already using.) Dark Elf is a traditional term, used to describe both the Scandinavian dosalfar (sp?), and the celtic bean sidhe (not certain how to spell that one, either, alas!), and therefore impossible to object to on legal grounds. It is, of course, less specific than Drow, so you would have to describe the creature in question, as well as provided a little more backgound -- either as a well written infodump from your narrator, or, as I demonstrated, some dialog between your pirates. But I really don't think either of those changes would have hurt your story any. But you might be relieved to learn that you can't be faulted on not learning how to write like this in school. I've yet to discover a school that teaches this stuff. :/ (You probably would be aware of this, if you had actually paid attention in class, but who am I to complain? I am guilty of spending most of my school hours, from eighth grade onward, scribbling stories down in the back of my subject notebooks.) :)

I used to write for TSR (Forgotten Realms Publisher). Just so you know, FR and Wizards of the Coast (which bought TSR) do a write for hire on their stories and books. One of my stories appeared in Realms of Infamy and my agent presented me with a 50-page contract (for a twenty page story). I could not use characters, Forgotten Realms names, places, etc. Why? Because they own the trademarks on all these things. A write for hire signs away all rights and trademark violations are just as serious as copyright violations. They probably won't bother you if you write fan fiction, because it would cost them more than it's worth to go after you, but if they find out you are making any money on it, you're up a fire creek without a deely. Denny

I published an article in Dragon Magazine, and forever signed away all rights to it by so doing. Didn't really bother me much, but I'd hate to have to do that with my fiction. I suspect it wouldn't bother me as much if I was actually working in their worlds though, but even without all my world building being handed over to them to do with as they wish, just handing my characters over would be painful enough. shudder Tracy Hickman wasn't very happy with what happenned to Dragonlance after he created it, IIRC, and that was a major aspect of why he and Margaret went independant.

Same thing happened to Jim Lowder with his Black Rose books. He sued WotC over their publishing practices. Lots of 'stuff' goes on behind the scene with these booklines that the readers and fans never realize. It's not always the Drows who cause trouble in the Realms. Denny

"It's not always the Drows who cause trouble in the Realms." rofl! From a fan's perspective, I can't say that I much care for the way AD&D has gone since WotC took it over. They really ticked me off when they cancelled Ral Partha's contract.