Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=529752

I'll never understand what gets some people so upset at things. I posted a Halloween image that I composed in Poser and provided credits for the figures I could remember and will post a follow-up comment to credit the other 3D objects in the image in a day or so when I have time to look up the original zips I pulled them from. Somebody, who liked the thumbnail enough to open the image, posted a nasty comment that it doesn't contain enough original models and gave it the lowest rating possible. I'll readily admit (and will provide all the credits) that I've pulled together a bunch of existing models to create the images, but I still put in over a half dozen hours composing the image, posing the models, providing expressions, and playing with lighting to get the effect I wanted. The end result of the image is exclusively mine. Give the same set of characters and props to a hundred other people and they'll each achieve a different result, some better than mine and some not. I looked at the poster's gallery and it's mostly a hodgepodge of original models that are rendered without much creative intent. There's some talent in the building of the models, but there's only so much time I want to spend looking at a well-designed wheel. Eventually, I want to get into modeling, but right now I'm more interested in producing artwork with the models I have. If every artist only used models they created, there probably wouldn't be a Renderosity, to show off our images, since the gallery is probably to some degree financed by the Marketplace. To me, it's a matter of how a person uses the tools available to them. If DAZ has already put in hundreds of hours to create a human model, there's little reason for me to do the same unless I want the model to do something that the DAZ model cannot. I'm not going to claim that I've created the best image in the world, but I think it turned out nicely. It was at least good enough to get this individual to look at the image, based on the thumbnail. The fact that I labelled it a Poser image is a good indication that it's not all 100% brand new models. Who can ever figure out why somebody would consider that a negative trait of the drawing?

Some people would probably have a problem with the Mona Lisa, no?

Focus on the positive and don't let the NaySayGuys (and gals) get to ya.

Keep on renderin', it's lookin' very good.

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

P.S. I gives ya a bump in yer rating just cuz it's a good pic. ;=]

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=527734&Start=1&Sectionid=0&filter_genre_id=0&Form.Se

OH my gosh, what a nasty thing to say. I like your picture and have no idea why that person would say such a thing. Try not to let it get to you, I to would have been shocked if it was said to one of my pics. This image above that I did just recently, not one model is something I did, it was the wonderful works of everyone but me, I just put it together. Sharen

I gave you an Excellent rating too - I would have normally just given it a "Very Good" but when dealing with a$$holes like that I tend to go to extremes. As I mentioned in my comments in the gallery, I would love to see what "Mr. Critic" can come up with. I'm assuming that he creates his own models from scratch and comes up with out of this world, fantastic images. Somebody point me to his work, I'd love to see it.

Comments like that always come from some form of bitter jealously. Anyone else would simply say "good for you".

Did you happen to check out the other guys gallery? yeesh Scarab

Oh yes. You've been hit by one of "those." Don't give it a second thought...or even a first one. But since you already did, look at his gallery...that should make you feel better.

Over at the Vue forum and gallery there's been a problem with multi-ID trolls leaving ignorant comments and low ratings with comments similar to the one "downwardspiral" left (and worse.) Their comment is completely without merit or value. I won't argue it, as I feel that many of us already have done so successfully many times. If the lowered rating and comment bother you, one of the forum mods will probably be happy to remove them for you if you provide them with the URL to your image in an instant message. downwardspiral needs to learn how to leave criticims in a constructive manner, or not at all. In this case, they had nothing to say that was worth saying. You can perhaps take some satisfaction in the fact that there's nothing in their gallery which is 1/10th as interesting as your delightful image. Don't let the bad apples get to ya! You're a good artist!

In other words, "consider the source." :-)

I just checked out his gallery. My opinion, he is a fair model craftsman in 3D Max, but totally lacks originality in his scenes. Living room scene....been there, done that. Bedroom scene....yawn!

Don't take the comment to heart. It's just jealousy and mean spiritedness.

Exactly pzrite. I don't see a sense of composition, but merely a display of models.

I think it's a great image. I think it's just jealousy on their part.

omg I looked and couldnt believe that comment! geeze I wonder if the person that notes "to make something of your own" I wonder if they made the programs they use "on their own"if they built their puter "on their own". I wonder if they gainsay painter that didnt mix their own paint from ground pigments? lordy almighty! I think the pic is great. I hate just hate those that think poser artists just open things up and POOF a scene is made the lighting done the postwork majically done...and POOF a picture. lordy folks get a clue.

Don't let it bother you. NONE of my images include something I've modeled or created (maybe a pose or face morph is all), mainly because I don't know how to model anything and don't really want to know. I love your image so just keep doing what you're doing. :-)

I totally agree with everyone here. Like rockets, I have never created an original model, don't even have a clue how to yet, don't have time to learn right now. I have done ONE texture that was just for myself, and I do poses and expressions and morphs mostly myself, sometimes from someone else. So what? That doesn't make it any less artistic. I think you did a great job! :)

If you feel that you've been trolled, please let a Mod know. We'll look at the comment and if it's hurtful instead of helpful, we'll bit bucket the comment. (There's a big difference between "This needs work." and "This sucks.") We want this site to be helpful. Cheers!

gagnonrich, There is no need to justify yourself. If you enjoy what you do without harming others then go for it. Opinions (like this one) are largely irrelevant and in such matters yours is the only one that really counts. - Jack ps. this message makes no claims of originality as it consists solely of words readily found in any common dictionary.

lol sometimes people just have those days when they shouldn't open their mouths. You know for them its' open mouth insert foot! I wouldn't let it bugg you too much... some people lack the "crank" in using "cranky"....;O)

Well, I see that the comment has been removed, but I can guess the gist of it from other comments. It's one of THOSE people. The "build it pixel by pixel from scratch or it's crap and you suck," sorts. Just blow them off. They're just narrow minded bigots. Tonight, I made soup for dinner. I used packaged vegetable stock, some carrots, celery, and onion, and pre-packaged beans, and threw in some ham. All I did was chop it all up and put it in the slow cooker with some pepper and seasoned salt. Since I didn't grow the vegetables or personally mix all the seasonings, I guess I didn't REALLY make soup, huh? ;-P bonni

... I guess I didn't REALLY make soup, huh? ;-P It may be really soup unless you used more than one pan or any post processing whatsoever. (I wonder if eating it afterwards constitutes post processing?) - Jack

omg you mean you didnt grow the vegtables...get the manure direct from the source??? you didnt raise the hog? slaughter it? butcher it??ohhh NOO HOW DARE YOU CLAIM TO MAKE SOUP! ~giggles~ sorry couldnt resist it

LOL....you guys crack me up.....LOL...I am making Micky D's tonight, it is hard, buy it, pull it out of the bag, unwrap, chew....guess I didn't really have supper either....ha ha ha.....Sharen

Naked Veggie in a Soup with a Spoon. How'd ya get it to glow like that?

Hmmm... not sure but the tos probably suggests that you shouldn't be discussing naked veggies without an appropriate warning in the message header. It doesn't bother me personally but that's probably because I'm one of those perverted vegetarians. - Jack

"Naked Veggie in a Soup with a Spoon. How'd ya get it to glow like that?" postwork, my friend xo, postwork..add some salt, pepper, and if you are adventurous, some tabasco...

"...didnt grow the vegtables...get the manure direct from the source??? you didnt raise the hog... You still didn't make the vegetable seeds, nor cultivate the manure, nor spawn the hog. I think you need to begin with premordial ooze ... but then, that's what my soup looks like when it's finished. I might as well dig in and forget all the trouble. :-)

At first blush it seems like a discussion about soup is rather a departure from the original topic regarding posting art work. However... You take a few rudimentary ingredients and stir them into a pot of water for a slow simmer and when you're done you have a meal- nourishing but basic. But you don't stop there... you continue with a partial puree, give a final adjustment with seasonings, drizzle a robust sherry on the surface and top it off with a dollop of sour cream. Accompany it with a thick slice of warm fresh bread and you have a true repast. The final ingredient is to share it with good company. Doesn't sound much different than creating and posting digital art, does it? - Jack

"Doesn't sound much different than creating and posting digital art, does it?" Well, yes. That's why I picked that metaphor. ;-P And it was damned nice soup, even if I didn't personally grow all the vegetables or raise the pig. ;-) bonni

Fortunately when your done with an image it stays around for a long time to enjoy, unlike cooking where your creation is gone is minutes which took hours to create. That's why I never became a cook, because I'm too much of a pig. snort

...Well, yes. That's why I picked that metaphor. ;-P I suspected so but thought it needed more body- like a good soup :) What can I say?... I'm a fussy eater. - Jack

Thanks for all the encouragement. I didn't really take much stock in the negative comment. The person, who posted it, isn't a typical troll because the person has done some modeling and has a gallery--unlike the typical troll who has no accomplishments to show. The fact that this person looked at the image, based on the thumbnail, is an indication that the image was worth looking at. I know I only have time to look at a fraction of the images in the gallery and, if the thumbnail doesn't grab me, I don't bother opening it. The weird thing is that, after opening it and seeing all the credits for what I used, it suddenly turned this person completely against the image. I do not understand people like that. Something, that was once good, becomes completely horrible when it violates their internal rules. My mother is sometimes like that. She once complimented me on how good my car looked after it got washed. I told her that I never washed my car. Her immediate response was that I better get it washed. It was a 180 degree reaction. One minute, the car was spotless. The next, it was filthy. It's one of those strange perceptual things where reality is totally governed by perceptions. Had my car been washed a minute before my mother saw it, she would still have seen the car as filthy if I had said that it hadn't been washed. These perceptual things are constantly at odds with much of the art world. I remember seeing a photography site that expressly would not allow digitally altered images on their site. There are many art sites that are the same way--but the photography snobbery bothered me more. The best photographer in the world only has marginal technical skills to learn. A two year-old can figure out how to push the button on a camera. It takes a little more knowledge to understand lighting and focus, but it's a smaller learning curve than something like Poser. What truly distinguishes a great photographer is having a good eye for an interesting image. It astonishes me that an artist or photographer can dismiss digital art as not being creative. As with anything, there is good and bad digital art. We've all seen it. I'm sure that we've all seen highly acclaimed artwork and shook our heads in dismay at what the critics are trying to tell us is magnificent art. I've seen Poser art that is awful. Poses and expression aren't realistic. Composition is bad. They're still using the lousy default Poser camera focal lengths, etc., etc. Most of us would never consider knocking those efforts because the person, that put up the images, thought that they were good enough to show the world. Considering that it takes time to learn Poser well, they've still accomplished something. With the right helpful comments, they can improve what they're doing. They'll probably never achieve what the top Poser users can do, but the most obvious problems can be fixed when they are technical errors. Artistic errors are harder to correct and harder to offer advice on. The average camera shooter will never achieve what Ansel Adams did in his career as a photographer. No amount of technical skill in Poser or Photoshop is ever going to turn somebody, without innate artistic sensibilities, into a great artist. I started looking at some of the galleries, of posters here, and there's some really incredible stuff. I've been putzing around with Poser for years, but only recently started trying to do full images. I've always enjoyed drawing and have some decent skills with a pencil, but always lose something when I try to finish the drawing in ink or paint. Computer art has always appealed to me because of the ability to redo things that aren't working without starting from scratch (though that ain't always the case with Poser). Getting good results in Poser (or any art program for that matter) is not as easy as it looks. I've only recently started getting comfortable with my results in posing figures. Poser can be terribly frustrating to use because there is nothing natural about posing a 3D figure in a 2D interface. I could spend hours getting a figure into a natural position that I could draw in minutes. It's taken me a long time to do a full image in Poser because of the difficulty in getting results that were worth the effort to complete. The lights in Poser are more arcane than I'd like. It's annoying to have to wait 30 minutes for a render to see what Poser is doing with the lighting and find that it's nothing like in the pre-rendered image. In my image, there's a yellow spotlight directly under the wood spoon and there's nothing to indicate that it's there in the render. I was hoping to get yellow highlights on the bottom of the hands and on the spoon. I'm still learning. I'm finally starting to appreciate what can be done with Poser. It is still a lot of work to do something. It's pushing me to upgrade my 800 MHz system. I'm getting tired of trying to nudge a rotation, in a busy scene, by a couple degrees and have it swing 270 degrees. Thanks again for the nice words.

Well, it would have been soup, but you didn't make the pan so it doesn't count. ;-}~ Cres the overly sugared up

Because a person can make paint, doesn't make them a painter. Someone can have all the best models, the best computer and still create crap... To get a good picture you've got to have an ounce of creativity and lots of patiences. Not all modelers have that. Keep doing what you're doing and forget the inept trolls.

The people who make these kinds of negative comments would probably look at an Ansel Adams photograph and say, "But you didn't make the mountains. You didn't make the landscape. How can you claim you 'made' it?" Technically, a person can't "make" anything from scratch on the computer. Did the person created 3D Studio Max? Did he create the operating system? Did he build the computer himself, including melting down of silicon to make the processor? Everyone's artwork is based on someone else's work. It's the arrangement of the parts and pieces that makes it unique and a work of art.

This is a Point of View Issue Is your goal to make a 3d Model? or To make 'art'? Your image is made as art. The commentor is focused on making models. Therefor you both succeed in what you want to do, and you both fail in each others eyes. shrug

seems to me, some people forget what art is at times, pardon me if i am wrong , but I was always taught that Art is the ability to create a emotion using tools that are avaliable, Every great artist in the world used tools, Every painter uses brushes (did he most likely make them himself?), sculptures used chisles and stone to create, again, Did they make these themselves? It is not our job to make the tools, our creations are made by emotions with the tools we have to use, Some people do not have a concept on what art really is, and thats the ability to create a feeling in the viewer, using tools we have avalable, plain and simple. Its a shame some people who claim they know, have no real Idea about it. Not that i am the brightest candle in the box, but some people just just amaze me....

I agree with all the above...& yes there is troll toodling around in the VUE forum as I type this....using Gebes name in a hideous manner... walks off grumbling at some peoples ignorance

Part of the game of posting your work and accepting comments is dealing with the eventuality of an unkind remark. I noted that the specific remark from which this substantial thread grew has been deleted from the gallery image--by the niceness police I assume? I say that even negative feedback is feedback--it means that somebody looked at your piece and reacted. Live and learn.

I agree with ignoring such comments. Art is creating what one envisions in their minds. Modellers and Renderers are two sides of the same coin. There is an art to modelling, to creating objects by polygons. There is an art to taking such models and creating magnificent pictures with them. Art invokes emotion, tells a story, but there can also be art in craftsmanship. What people don't always see is that the world is full of all sorts of artistic endeavors that span beyond their limited vision. It's a shame too, because one could learn so much from the other.

ShadowWind

I had some idiot do something similar to me. I messaged them to "thank" them for their comments (like I try to message anyone who takes the time to comment on one of my images) but strangely enough the message was never picked up. I wonder why? ~lol~ Rise above it, and pity them if you have the time or the inclination.

Feedback is things like "You had an eye for colors" or "Your lighting needs some work." Feedback doesn't have to be "Ooh, that's the most wonderful thing I've ever seen" but it does have to be useful/relevant in some way. The comment dropped onto gagnorich's picture could have been dropped onto almost any picture and wouldn't have been any more helpful. Cres of the niceness police (apparently)

My dememted finger-paintings, as I call my Poser work...get very few hits and fewer comments but so far I haven't been slam dunked by a asshole. My day will probably come, there is probably a anal neurotic reading this post just waiting for a new victim! Point of my tirade is that I do this stuff for a change of pace from daily life...a relaxation hobby. I don't try to get cutesy or produce great art, so everything I use is actually somebody else's hard work. We piece this stuff together to make a picture that represents something, like a puzzle...a joint effort between the crafts people that produce the product and the artist[?] that puts it together. Those people who make negative remarks about this joint effort suffer from insecurity, jealousy, and just plain old fashioned uncouthness. Ignore them, flip them the bird...then get on with putting your puzzles together.

"They suffer from insecurity, jealousy"....etc.? Sorry, but you don't even know the person, how can you know what motivates him to be unkind. He probably is insensitive, plain and simple, or perhaps he's a generally sensitive person who was having a bad day. In the meantime, his unkind remark has generated a whole lot of conversation. And I think this conversation reveals a lot more about us than the person who made the initial remark: it reveals that we want to be noticed, and it hurts our feelings when we are noticed in a negative manner. So who's insecure?

...reveals a lot more about us than the person who made the initial remark: it reveals that we want to be noticed, and it hurts our feelings when we are noticed in a negative manner. So who's insecure?

Maybe. If someone posts an image it's a given they wish to be noticed. But questioning a comment instigated by the image is not necessarily a cry for recognition or a sign of insecurity. In a case where multiple credits are given for models used the image is clearly not about modeling. It would therefor seem unfair to judge it on that basis. That would be like criticizing a dog because it is not a cat. One might do so if the dog insisted upon meowing but that does not appear to be the case in this incident.

pookah69, I think your comment holds some truth in many instances- just not this one. This one is about unfairness, not negativity.

• Jack

I think that everyone reaches a point where their art is slammed by someone who can't find his butt with both hands. They usually leave a bad rating, a comment that doesn't have to do with the quality of the piece, and a general bad feeling. Usually it comes when you start doing really good work. Some people can't stand for talent to exist in others. I've had people leave a bad rating and no comment, usually on pieces that reflect my lifestyle. Suddenly I've got 7 wonderful commnets, and my rating drops from excellent to fair for no reason. Just someone's way of expressing disapproval for my content, not the quality of the art itself. No advice for improvement, just a sudden drop in rating with no way to ask "why?" Personally, I think they're the gods' way of making the normal, considerate, real people try harder. Just to make up for the b*stards. People who were taught manners and positive ways of dealing with others make an extra effort. BTW, it's a great piece. I love the colors and composition. A wonderful Halloween piece. Now back to the chicken I'm cooking, I didn't raise it, but I'm calling it MY dinner.

Attached Link: American Gothic

http://www.artic.edu/artaccess/AA_Modern/pages/MOD_5.shtml To be honest, my post was a "deer in the headlights" reaction to the comment I got. Sure, any time you poke your head above the crowd, by posting an image, you've got to be resigned to the reality that somebody may take a potshot at you. I posted a gallery image of an adventurous girl stumbling on a witch stirring up a spell in a cauldron. I didn't expect thunderous applause, but I also didn't expect somebody to give it the lowest possible rating solely because of how it was created. Had I not taken the time to credit the models I used, this poster's reaction probably would not have been negative. That's why I thought it might be an interesting topic to post. The comment had nothing to do with the image I had produced. It was something to the effect of saying that anybody can produce an image with a bunch of models and why don't I come back when I do something original. The same comment could be levied against nearly every Poser artist. I didn't take the comment too seriously (hence the subject line of it being about a cranky comment). I didn't report the poster to the Moderators, so had nothing to do with the comment being removed. The poster wasn't a typical troll and has some skill as a modeler, but doesn't have an artistic gallery as much as one that shows off the models (such as this tire sample http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=462978). That's not a negative comment as much as a description of how this individual is using the gallery--it showcases the models and was never intended to be art. I take nothing away from modelers--the best modelers are artists with the same talents as the best sculptors. It was so bizarre to see somebody get so worked up over the technique of producing the image instead of the results of the image. That's why I thought it was worth posting. At issue is a philosophy of whether a work should be taken on its own or be judged on how it was created. One of the most famous paintings ever produced is American Gothic (link above), a painting showing two weathered people standing in front of a barn. I found a book about the painting at a library and learned that the two figures are based on photographs (one being the artist's sister). If one wants to take an extreme purist attitude, the painting is crap because it used photo references and did not solely spring from the artist's mind. The Mona Lisa is crap because DaVinci worked with a live model. It's a viewpoint that is so narrow-minded as to be ridiculous. In some ways, a person, with such obsessively defined logical rules, can almost be pitied because a lot of enjoyable things in life are going to be trashed when they conflict with those arbitrary rules. As others have suggested, applying the same logic to the poster's models would make them seem worthless because they were not created with original code, but used 3dsMax. Computer artwork is taking off because the computer provides capabilities that traditional art media doesn't have. The greatest reason to use Poser is because it simplifies some tasks. With the existing models and textures out there, one can render a very realistic human character. There is very little reason to want to create a new human figure from scratch when there are many good ones out there already. Since I had downloaded a cauldron many months ago, there wasn't a reason to build one. The same goes for the background. The latter two items are not beyond my ability to create, but why spend a few more hours to create something that already exists? Sure, it's nice to point to them and say they're mine, but all I wanted to do was create an image that was in my head. If it takes me less time to find an existing model than it does to jump into a 3D program and build it, then I'm just taking advantage of the tools available to me. It's the image that matters and whatever shortcuts that get the image I want onto a screen or canvas is all that counts. Unless I need a very specifically shaped cauldron or other object, it's rather pointless to spend lots of time creating one because I just needed a cauldron. It's not the focus of the image. There's no sin to using what's already available. In fact, it's kind of silly to expend dozens of hours to create a model when the goal is to produce a drawing instead of a model. The hardest thing to get used to with Poser, from regular drawing, is that the amount of time and effort to do a drawing has been reversed. With a traditional drawing, laying out the drawing takes the least amount of time and rendering it with fleshed out details and shading is where the real work occurs. With Poser, laying out the drawing is the most painstaking process and rendering it is done entirely in the computer without human assistance. That's taken me a long time to get used to. I can lay out a drawing in a few minutes and flesh out a fairly good rendered pencil drawing in a few hours. Going beyond that to a painted image has always been a more difficult task and I often lose the spontaneity of the original image whenever I paint. I spend hours in Poser composing an image, getting figures into natural poses, getting the camera angle right, and getting the lighting right. Then it becomes the time-consuming process of pose-render-pose-render to achieve the look I want because a lot of problems aren't uncovered until the image is rendered. Due to the drain on computer resources, I often have to work in a piecemeal fashion one model at a time before integrating the complete image. At times, it's a tedious process, but I'm finally starting to become happy with the end results. Seeing somebody getting so bent out of shape because I used a bunch of existing models for a drawing simply struck as such a weird reaction. I essentially got the drawing I wanted, so it doesn't matter much that one person got so wrapped up in internal obsessive rules that the person lost the impact of the drawing. There are still little things that I want to do to flesh out the image, but I thought the image stood out enough on its own that it was worth posting for Halloween.

Every branch of "the arts" has someone(s) who will decry any variation on their particular strict description of said discipline. I make some of my own models, I make some of my own textures, I use other peoples stuff too. Does the name (when I remember to give it) of the person responsible for a particular segment of my creation add to the whole? Does the lack of a credit detract from the image itself? Does the fact that I didn't write the Windows OS let alone the code for Poser (OR Bryce for that matter) negate the fact that I choose to use all and any of them to create with? By all means bitch at me for forgetting to credit you for providing an element of my creation, because I'm bad at doing that sometimes, but if you think that sort of thing affects the overall content of my hard work then please be good enough to explain your reasons for giving me the lowest possible ranking if it's not simply to piss me off, and to give yourself a warm smug feeling 'cos you just used a one-off nic and feel REALLY clever for doing it. ...now I'm REALLY gonna get some sh*t rankings. ~lmao~

As old Jasper said in the Simpsons.... "Talking out of turn...that's a paddling. Looking out the window...that's a paddling. Staring at my sandals...that's a paddling. Paddling the school canoe or making unwarranted derogatory comments in the gallery ...ooh, you better believe that's a paddling." Nice idea for an image, well rendered. Forget the comment. Move on. Life's way too short.... Q