I thought it was time for another mini debate as I was very keen to hear the views of all you gurus. As most of you know, Photoshop is quite an unique programme in that there are so many different ways to approach a problem or challenge, especially in which tools to use. This couldn't be better illustrated than the choice of selection tools. Among the many choices we have are the Marquee Tools, Pen Tools and Quick Mask. My own personal choices are the Polygonal Lasso Tool and the Quick Mask. I have tried but couldn't find a good reason to regularly use the Pen Tool. As for the Magnetic Lasso Tool the less said the better. So lets hear which selection tools you use as a matter of course, why it more than another and what benefits does it bring.

Masks/alpha channels. The Quick Mask is actually a alpha channel thing, so that would be it. For hard edged forms (cars for instance) with large sides that scream for vectors I use the pen. I will make a selection of that pen path and turn that into a mask, most of the time. And of course if the image has to be imported in Quark XPress or InDesign with a clipping path. I never use the lasso tool and the direct Quick Mask. The lasso is too loose for me. I'd rather paint with alternating black and white in a mask or a channel, to REALLY get that selection in-sync with the pixels. When using a layer mask or alpha channels (different channels for different parts of what you want to select, for instance a different one for the hair, on which you do some blurring) the selecting is the last thing one does, after building the masks. Hope this is a start, debate-wise.

Wow Hoof. That was some imput into the debate. You really have started me thinking more about masks and channels. I suppose I was taking the easy way out by using the simplist tools and I have to admit that you lost me somewhat with the methods you use.

You are quite obviously a very experienced user of Photoshop. How about some background? How long have you been using PS? How did you learn it, surely not by the manual? Did you attend any college classes?

As a graphic designer Photoshop is surely one of the important tools in my everyday activities. But. together with Illustrator, InDesign (well, I am still lingering with QuarkXpress, but that is because lack of days in the week) and some other pixelpushing and pixel creating software like Painter, Studio Artist, Carrara 3 and, whenever needed even Adobe Dimensions and Adobe Streamline and Flash. I think I am using Photoshop for more than 10 years now. The first version was 2.5. I originally entered the communication business as a copywriter, but only because my parents would not let me go to art school (in Holland that seemed to involved smoking loads of weed, producing extremely abstract pieces of art and more weed smoking, so that might have something to do with it). In the early Macintosh days I dabbled with MacPaint, which is a tiny little bit similar, so when I got to hang around computers (officially to tell those DTP boys and girls which grotesque typos they made) Photoshop really struck me. Learning it involved a lot of late nights, determination and made-up projects. The biggest project being a digital photo I made of a rubber frog (with one of the really early digital camera's that took 5 minutes for one photo) and that I wanted to change in an old photo, an oil painting, a fresco on a wall on a photo, an Andy Warhol etc, etc. Because I was so eager to know everything there was to know about pushing those pixels around in my imagination, I tried almost everything. The only moments I did fiddle with the manual is when I could not figure out how to do stuff. And then finding out that one will not likely find 'how to'-answers in a manual. More reason to try every tool inside PS and to start saving money to buy expensive magazines like Computer Arts. And try, try, try and then try some more (I harmed and even killed millions of innocent pixels in the years gone by) These days internet is a big source of knowledge. For instance for finding 15 ways to do the Apple Aqua stuff (which was, looking back, already possible in PS 2.5). Today I am a graphic designer, and still learning. I started my own small design company, which is now operating with two other companies under the name 'CommunicatieGarage', which would, surprisingly, be called CommunicationGarage in English. The clients we have invoke a lot of very different uses of Photoshop: Sometimes it is image enhancement, sometimes manipulation/retouche, collages, creating original art, texture creation etc. etc. Most of the time the actual goal is 'communication', so whatever we do, photoshop is always just a tool. But one that I want to know like a surgeon knows his knives and scissors (and the appropriate names for those). Since, I think, five years I use Wacom pens and tablets full time, even for things as reading my mail (and removing all those unneeded enhancement s of bodily functions and lately a lot of Russian spam). That pen opened up a whole new way of using Photoshop and other Adobe software. How much knowledge and experience one builds up over the years becomes clear when people start asking questions. I have helped a lot of people who did not know how to do things, and those that are limiting themselves because they are not interested in learning other ways. Like always using the same duotone values. Just because someone once said they were good. The last group is the hardest to handle. When I see a picture of a girl that needs to be placed in a different background, I automatically determine how I will make my selections. Using selections made via selecting specific colors (the color of the sky) for the hair (and then filtering/manipulation that alpachannel), using a pen path for that big glasses, and manipulating a seperate channel for that mohair sweater she choosed to wear. Using adjustment layers do involve 'advanced' selection things too. When I want to change the color of that mohair sweater, I will make a selection of that sweater to use as a mask. Or a stash of masks. If I want to change the color of the glasses, I can use the selection I make of the path, using a AL and a mask. Wanting to know a lot and enough patience to find everything out results in knowing a lot about Photoshop. But more important to me is that using that knowledge, and PS, is still a lot of fun. And having that knowledge, I free my creative mind, because everything I can imagine, I know how to create. It is something that makes me very happy, looking at a recent movie poster and knowing how it was done (and how I would do it better ofcourse). But I do understand most people are happy just knowing how to tame the beast and use it for what they want. Or looking at something I created and seeing that it communicates what it was meant to communicate. (Oh yes, and getting paid for it too!) Mmm. I might have overused my keyboard on this one. But feel free to ask more about those masks, alpha channels and selections. I do not mind sharing knowledge. That's what Renderosity is for, isn't it? Kind regards, Hoof

Hi Hoof It was obvious that you were vastly experienced but I had no idea..... Thank's for letting us into your mind set Cheers Jack

I tend to use the lasso tool a lot. I know there are better ways to do what I do with it. I know that. But it's just a habit with me to use the lasso and it works for me and lets me feel more control that otherwise. My second most useful tool is the magic wand.

Yeh you and me both Bonestructure Thanks for your contribution

I use lasso and polygon lasso a lot! The freehand lasso works really well with a Wacom or other tablet. Quick mask next for me when I need more precisely controlled feathered selections (using the airbrush, etc.)

I'm not an expert, but I find that I use the pen tools. I have yet to wrap what few bran cells I have around the masking. I've tried though. I may revisit.

much like hof selction depends on what is to be selectd and what needs to be changed.. pen tool is rather exelent since you can have a miriad of paths and saves you from saving a selection.. plus pen leds itself to applications such as clipping paths for other programs I think because if you miss your selction and can't the path is prety much always there in the backstage area.. waiting to be as flexable as the image changes.

mask / alpa aint to bad just need more jobs that require it. lol

I use the lasso tool and then choose specific colors withing the lassoed area by clicking on Select>color range and using the color picker. I love that color range option! :)

I agree fully with DawnStar - that color range selection has been a lifesaver for me over and over. Other than that, I use the magic wand often to deselect areas after narrowing a selection first with the circle or square. Totally old skool, I know, but it's how I learned.

I've developed a "style" for certain types of images I work with where I use the magnetic lasso to outline an object, then copy it to a new layer, then use the magic wand to mask it...modify/contract the mask, then use gaussian blur on the outline left outside the mask. It gives quite a nice blend, and it's extremely quick. At 72dpi (which is most of my work) it's quite sufficient and effective. I realise that description is (at best) sketchy, but it's almost 4:30 in the morning. ~lol~

Wow. That was some response to my invitation to take part in a mini debate on selections. First of all thanks to everyone for your submissions which were varied to say the least. I was a bit surprised that our moderator didn't let us have the benefit of his wisdom. The one thing that comes across re-enforces what I said in my opening posting that there are so many ways to make a selection, and that the more experience that you get with Photoshop, the more you are likely to explore all the alternative options.
Some of them seem to be way beyond me and I will probably be a stick-in-the-mud and stay with my tried and tested tools that I am comfortable with. Thank you all once again.
Jack

Well Jack, i wanted to hear from others as well ;)

Hoof is very knowledgeable as is many others that frequent the forum. i was just concerned the discussion would stop if i added my 2cents (as happens to a lot of posts ;)) so i held my tongue...

I agree with you when you said "there are a lot of different ways to achieve the same results..." but the key is to know which works best for the need.

i noticed there weren't many adding input for the Pen Tool. anyone working with PageMaker or InDesign will know there are times when you need to isolate an object and this is when "clipping paths" come in real handy (the difference between making a selection and copying it and creating a clipping path is with the path, it's stored with the image and can be reused), and the best tool to make a clipping path is the pen tool.

There are a couple different pen tools and each have there strengths, the basic pen tool draws lines and bezier curves, and the freeform tool allows you to draw around an object quickly. If you have enough contrast on the edge you can select the "magnetic" option which works like the magnetic lasso (which a lot of people find useless, but stick with me on this). Once you've drawn your path, you can "add" or "delete" anchor points and refine your path. when you're done you'll have an outline called "work path", you need to save it before you can do anything with it cause it's only a temp path. i've had them disappear and had to do it all over again because i forgot to save it. To make it into a clipping path, select it from the drop-down menu and give it a "flatness" value. (side note: the lower the number the more accurate the curve, BUT if you have trouble printing, change your flatness value.) Photoshop now converts the path into a clipping path and you should notice the title change from regular type into outline type. Save the image as an EPS and you're all set to use it in PageMaker or InDesign or Quark...

If you don't want to deal with the pen tool you can do this same thing by making a selection with the "marquee tool" or the "magic wand" and from the Paths menu select New Path, name the path, and convert it into a clipping path, so the key is finding the best tool for YOU to use to get the results YOU want, cause there are MANY ways to do "any-one-thing".
my 2cents

;)
scott

The pen tool I use more for hard edged images or if I am taking over as a clipping path. I do tend to do a lot of manual masking, working with black or white (similar to HOOF) on a mask. I feel like I have more control that way.

@ Jack... SEE!

OK OK OK. I'm convinced about the Pen Tool and it is obviously worth exploring. I suppose that I have become too set in my ways and while the other selection tools were doing everything I wanted, there didn't seem much point in trying anything else even though it might work better.

Again thanks to everyone for taking part. I hope that it has been of value to all the other Photoshoppers who couldn't see the advantages of using the more complex selection methods
Jack