Okee... since it is not ok to digress from one topic to another without things getting locked, lets have a new topic that specifically discusses our topic we were digressing to. Here is the post I had made that evidently got the thread locked by not being on topic. I would still like an answer :) ===================================================== Hi Dialyn. I think you truly do owe me a personal apology for your attacks on me yesterday. To say today that you feel like a truck has been run all over your dreams, is something you probably owe me another apology for. Dialyn, I know this is probably hard for you to imagine, but Renderosity's success, and PoserPros success, are not two mutually exclusive concepts. At least not to Russell and I. And though it may also be hard for you to imagine, by dissing PoserPros and me, and any accomplishments I make for whatever reason you are doing so, you are running over MY dreams, and the dreams of thousands of other artists with the same sort of metaphorical truck you fantacise people are running over your dreams with. We too have dreams Dialyn. Dreams of a happy day in this community when artist, and even staff, are compensated for their hard work... or more accurately stated, compensated more on the order of what their hard work is worth. We have dreams of a day when this political war that goes on from Rosity towards us ceases to exist, and we can merely be a normal everyday member here, able to speak our minds, like everyone else. Can you help us to fullfill those dreams? I held out my hand to you in friendship, and a genuinely heart felt show of kindness, to try to give you something I thought you would find joy and happiness in for Christmas, since I feared you were implying you could not afford it at that moment. This was not grandstanding, or attempting to back you into some corner where you had to sign up on our site or else... it is just the only way I had to legally transfer the file to you... purchase it on my own account, and then have our gift certificate code send you the download link. Can you not even accept a gesture of peace and friendship? Is it that I am a "competitor"? Is it that you seem to feel that I am some sort of "enemy" of this site? Even enemies and competitors must be showed courtesy and honor, if one is to retain one's own honor. Long ago, I learned that a worthy competitor is also the most worthy ally. Perhaps someday Dialyn, if my OWN dreams come true, you and I will be friends, able to laugh about all these old bad times, and share good warm feelings of "comrades in arms", both with just and righteous causes, showing honor and respect to one another. That is my Holiday Dream for you and I Dialyn.

Mehndi, What does all this have to do with the purpose of this forum which is to communicate Renderosity news, updates, events, and other items of interest to members? Your posts of late seem to be very negative. I hope this is not simply competitive behavior intended to promote your own site or worse, to try and kill a new collaborative project by Renderosity members. I learned a lesson early in life that if you don't have something good to say about someone/something, it's better to say nothing at all. The coordinated, disruptive posts on this site by you and your staff are numerous. You can easily count the number of negative, disruptive comments by our staff on your site - zero. That's our policy and that's how it will remain. Maybe you should consider adopting this policy for your own staff. Thanks, Tim

Pardon me, but she was only responding to the negativity that some of YOUR staff keeps posting whenever Mehndi posts her questions or comments. And I am not a moderator anywhere.

Oh, as a member, I find this to be an item of interest. beam

What started it all was not in fact a negative post by Mehndi.

Tim, to quote you, 'That's our policy and that's how it will remain. Maybe you should consider adopting this policy for your own staff.; when will you apply this to your staff? we have had an attack on one person, another case where a admin of another site has had their name smeared without proper cause, and numerous other cases where 'high handed' practices have been taken to issues by this site and it's staff over issues that are of concern to the members, such as refunds, coptright issues etc. please take another look at your own house before making such proclamations. Kai Janus Bach.

Tim: "The coordinated, disruptive posts on this site by you and your staff are numerous." Besides Mehndi's and my rare post, I'm not personally aware of any single disruptive post by the PoserPros staff on Renderosity. If I am incorrect, please feel free to point out some of these "numerous" posts to me. Your staff were the ones who started the negativity in this case, simply because Mehndi made a post. A post directed towards encouraging the fair treatment of artists in being fairly compensated for their work, rather than taken advantage of for some else's profit. Any "negativity" she shows is generally a result of her treatment by your staff. As far as "promoting" our site, I did not see any site being promoted in that thread, other than maybe 3d World. Tim: "... a new collaborative project by Renderosity members." Seems to me the members don't know much about this project they are supposedly collaborating in ... and aren't allowed to question the staff about it either. Looks more like a Renderosity staff project, designed to make money ... and I don't see anything wrong with that. Just don't do it on the backs of the members. Make sure everyone wins. :) Russell

kaibach - he didn't mean that people were treated fairly here evil grin re-read Tim's post. He is stating that staff doesn't go to competitor sites and create a fuss. By stating that PP is using "coordinated, disruptive posts" he is stating they are intentionally attempting to undermine the business at 'rosity which smacks of brewing up trouble. And in case anyone has forgotten or misunderstands I am most definitely NOT a PP staffer nor am I a regular at PP or faced with any loyalty issues to Mehndi. My comments are my own and are based solely on actually "reading" what is written.

"And in case anyone has forgotten or misunderstands I am most definitely NOT a PP staffer nor am I a regular at PP or faced with any loyalty issues to Mehndi. My comments are my own and are based solely on actually "reading" what is written." Oh, come on. Everyone knows it's all part of The Conspiracy(tm). You may not be aware that you're part of it, but they're probably controlling you with mind chips or something. Fnord. bonni

Merry Christmas everyone!!!! Mehndi, If you have a issue with one of my team, please IM me so we can work this out. Thanks Spike

bonni!! What a horrific thought! Mehndi? You haven't been sneaking to VA and slipping chips into my brainwhile I am slumped over my keyboard have you?

I have to agree with Tim on this. The above post by Mehndi was of a personal nature that should have been handled via e-mail to Dialyn. It has absolutely no place on this forum. However... It appears that Mehndi always has an axe to grind, and unfortunately she always chooses to grind it upon the heads of artists, merchants and admins here. As a matter of fact, if you visit PoserPros forums you'll find that the favorite way to pass the time there by many, Mehndi included, is to bash Renderosity on a regular basis. Thus the letter above. It's not specifically for Dialyn, but presented as a way for Mehndi to further bitch about Renderosity in some form or fashion and to make sure her continued ranting and raving is viewed by all. It's obvious she has an extreme distaste for Renderosity, as do her followers. Go ahead, flame away, but to me, this is how I view it, and quite frankly, I find it incredibly nauseating.

I guess if we're members or merchants there we're automatically the voice of disscent? Give me a break. I too speak for no one but myself and I'd say the same things to anyone at anyother site that I felt needed it.

No one puts a label on me.

Perhaps yet another policy should be discussed. Are members of other sites, and lets face it we're only really talking about one, going to be treated differently and labeled with each and every post? Are we not allowed to question a venture that we're considering paying for? Are we not allowed to dissagree period?
Because I see the difference in treatment and I'm sick of it. Mehndi did nothing wrong and I wouldn't care if it had been someone I don't get along with, I'd still stick up for them.

Some really need to grow up and get past this and realize who it was that brought up Poser Pros in that discussion because it wasn't a PoserPros member.

Help me out here, I am trying to get the details and keep this between the members involved. Please respect that. My hope is that Mehndi will contact me and we can work through this. Thanks Spike

Renderosity is a great site.

PP has many things to recommend it, too.

Can't we start from there, and then go someplace better?

*****I am trying to get the details and keep this between the members involved.

Please respect that.*****

I, for one, will respect it.

I would love to Spike, but the whole "them vs us" thing has repercussions that are very visible and affecting to anyone attempting to be a member of both sites.
I hope it's addressed because it needs to be.

I'm a member and merchant at Poser Pros. I'm a member and a merchant here. I have issues with some things here and the way they're handled, and -- news flash -- I would have those issues even if I was NOT a member of ANY other site! The assumption that if you are active at some other site (well, face it, it's only ONE site) you must be part of some sort of conspiracy... Well, that's pretty paranoid, and it's insulting, as well. As for the "bashing" at Poser Pros, there are a couple of very, very vocal sorts who do just relentlessly bash this place. The rest who chime in on certain topics are doing so there because we're not allowed to do it here. There is no conspiracy. Renderosity does things sometimes in ways that some members don't like. If we can't vent about it or speak up about it here, we do it somewhere else, because humans are naturally community-forming and naturally communicative. It's human nature, not a conspiracy. bonni

"The coordinated, disruptive posts on this site by you and your staff are numerous." Tim, I think you need to get real and drop this conspiracy theory crap. There is no conspiracy to destroy Renderosity perpetrated by the evil doers at Poser Pros. Your hint at such a things existence just feels like a personal grudge between yourself, Russell and Liz being carried along each time you read something here you don't like. On the other hand, is there some sort of "bash the competitor" boot camp your staffers must undergo prior to being given the god like powers of admin? I have no axe to grind with your corporation here. I would like to offer my opinion that even the illusion of my level handed treatment coming from your admins would go a long way on the good will meter. ClaudiusInsanitus "It appears that Mehndi always has an axe to grind, and unfortunately she always chooses to grind it upon the heads of artists, merchants and admins here. As a matter of fact, if you visit PoserPros forums you'll find that the favorite way to pass the time there by many, Mehndi included, is to bash Renderosity on a regular basis. " Sounds like you're not quite up to speed on the long and convoluted back story. But if you indeed visited PPros forums more than occasionally, you'd know that "the favorite way to pass the time" over there is not dwelling on this site. It's a much, and I can't stress this part enough, MUCH more open atmosphere for discussion of any topic. I think you do the community as a whole a grave disservice to summarize it as "a place to bitch about Renderosity". I'd like to just piggyback on elizabyte's sentiment. I enjoy both sites and really hate when it comes down to this little war between the owners. The more Rosity tries to clamp down on any free speech being posted here, the less I visit. If you guys think that sort of thing goes unnoticed, you're dead wrong. If you think we're all simpletons youll believe there's a wicked conspiracy to undermine this site by a minor competitor, you're kidding yourselves. I wish you all a Merry Christmas and only hope this post stays on here long enough to be read by a few.

Hi Spike, sorry to be so long answering. Been out doing last minute Christmas shopping and stuff. The basic problem I am having is just dealing with the day to day treatment of Dialyn toward me. It has gone on for a long time now. If she treated everyone like she treats me, I would not be so bothered, but she does not. Instead she singles me out of the crowd... and it is a HUGE crowd, the vast majority of which are already saying the exact same things I said long before I came along to agree with them, on whatever issue the issue of the moment is. So, I come and agree, usually without a single mention of who I am, where I am from, or any other site, and next thing I know, whammy... there is Dialyn all over me like white on rice, kicking me in the virtual shins. Now that is cool, I have been treated worse by better people you know. But it gets frustrating when her conduct is all cool and is let go on, but I get warned for finally letting her know her conduct bothers me in the mildest of terms, without any of the uncivility in my letting her know that she constantly shows toward me, And it gets even more frustrating when my posts telling her that her conduct bothers me are deleted. That REALLY bothers me. And it REALLY bothers other people that things here are constantly locked and deleted too... and so it is a self-perpetuating cycle. Off they trot to other sites to post about what got deleted or locked, including our site. And then Dialyn hates me even more ;) And round and round it goes. As to Tim and Tammy's constant mantra of late, there is no conspiracy by me to bring people over here to disrupt this site in any shape or form. None of the "troublemakers" on this site are my staff in fact. Unless you count me as staff ;p And I am not a troublemaker, I am an ACTIVE member of Renderosity, same as most of the others who ask penetrating and hard to answer questions. That is what no one ever gets. I am still a member here. I still participate as a member in all ways and always have. I am a fairly regular customer. I have a gallery. I vote on gallery images. I have a favorites list. I have everything every other member does except one thing. Fair treatment by the owners and staff of this site. People say that PoserPros is nothing but a site that bashes this site all the time. But that could not be farther from the truth. We are instead a site where anyone is allowed to say anything, and so they literally do. When they can't say it here, or it got deleted here, they come say it there. I can't say I blame them. The staff and myself at PoserPros usually do not even get involved or care about these conversations that diss Rosity. I've got too much to handle to even notice most of the time. Also, these conversations where people express their bitterness or frustration toward Rosity at PP are actually pretty rare. Less than .001% of our total article base of over 147 thousand articles. But here... no matter what I say, what topic I want to participate in, EVERY single time, here comes someone... lately it is Dialyn, to stomp all over me. Now that is cool, as I say, I am a very tough lady, and have been through alot worse in my life than she can ever do to me. But if she keeps up, sooner or later, she can expect me to say something to her to let her know that I have noticed, and that I think it is pretty sour of her to go on at me like this. So that is all this is about.

"The staff and myself at PoserPros usually do not even get involved or care about these conversations that diss Rosity. I've got too much to handle to even notice most of the time." Be careful, somebody may actually go check. Mehndi, you've started entire threads over there. "But if she keeps up, sooner or later, she can expect me to say something to her to let her know that I have noticed, and that I think it is pretty sour of her to go on at me like this." That's wonderful! But if and when you do decide to unload your mighty fury upon her, please, do it via personal e-mail to her and spare the rest of us.

I hope this is not simply competitive behavior intended to promote your own site or worse, to try and kill a new collaborative project by Renderosity members. ROFL... you don't understand at all, do you? Why is everything about PoserPros sooo threatening to this place... The only danger you have to fear is certain high-handed mods who are allowed everything and all. And I am sure Mehndi has better things to do than to sit there all day and think up schemes to destroy Rosity... Sigh.

"And I am sure Mehndi has better things to do than to sit there all day and think up schemes to destroy Rosity..." From what I have seen over the past couple of years, Rosity needs no help in destroying themselves. They seem to have that routine down pat all by themselves.

I don't support donating your work out of the goodness of your heart to a paid publication. If you do it, be aware that you're giving away your hard work for free. And people unfortunately appreciate things in the value they paid for them... I've had the worst troubles with people that didn't want to pay an author what they are worth.

Nothing personal about Renderosity, but if you really appreciate your contributors, you'd pay them. Its a livelihood for a lot of people, I work in this field as well.

If this was a free community newsletter, I'd say, have fun, and go for it. Its way different when you start charging people for it.

some links.

writer beware

http://www.sfwa.org/beware/

authorslawyer.com:literary scams:publishers

http://www.authorslawyer.com/l-publishers.shtml

you all may digress back to petty mudslinging and political backbiting now.

"you all may digress back to petty mudslinging and political backbiting now" Cool! slings mud stabs a plitician in the back Hey, this is FUN.... ! bonni

Be careful, somebody may actually go check. Mehndi, you've started entire threads over there I'd say do exactly that - and have the joy of discovering that this guy hasn't a clue what he's talking about. The "entire threads" Mehndi has started in recent weeks include: (1) banning a merchant for a copyright violation, (2) wishing the staff a happy holiday, and (3) asking if anyone has a particular model so a texture can be tested for the store. Yeah, those all sound like vicious nasty threads to me... But hey, what else is new, right?

"I learned a lesson early in life that if you don't have something good to say about someone/something, it's better to say nothing at all. The coordinated, disruptive posts on this site by you and your staff are numerous."

Nothing like contradicting yourself within the confines of two sentences.

bonni says: "Hey, this is FUN.... !" I don't really see it that way, unfortunately. Christmas is very tight for a lot of authors and journalists this year due to the magazine publishing slump. The more publications that get the idea that paying the content creators a fair value for their work, is something they can avoid doing, the worse it gets for a lot of freelancers whose professions these publications are inadvertantly helping to ruin. But hey, these threads now become 'poor Renderosity being trashed' threads... because the relevant posts that blew it out of proportion and away from the original, very valid concerns have been conveniently deleted... so I'll just bow out now before I get really physically ill watching the pity party. I have Christmas preparations to attend to now anyway.

Well, I was just teasing, actually. You know me. Always the jester. jingles her bells To quote Roger Rabbit, "Sometimes laughter is the only weapon you have." bonni

The coordinated, disruptive posts on this site by you and your staff are numerous. - Tim Wow, first it was Lady Cherry cheating on her stats, now Mehndi and PoserPros are accused of coordinating an attack on Renderosity. Whose site are you gonna try to shoot down next? Get a grip, or at least get a grip on the mods who seem to be able to delete posts at will and sculpt a thread to their own ends whilst remaining bulletproof.

uh oh slinger you mentioned Lady Cherry! YOur post might disappear! :D Funny isn't it. "Poor little Renderosity all the big bad bullies from Poserpros!!" It isn't PoserPros that has a person that ADMITTED to copyright infringement on the front page as the Merchant of the Month. Yes kiddies, crime doth pay?! As someone else pointed out before. If Renderosity didn't keep messing up, we wouldn't have anything to say, now would we? beam

"It isn't PoserPros that has a person that ADMITTED to copyright infringement on the front page as the Merchant of the Month. Yes kiddies, crime doth pay?!" Caly, while I do totaly agree with the sentiment of your last post, please investigate the MOM infringement thing a bit further before lumping him in with the other infringers. This was clearly an accidental case. the infringing material was exactly 25 X 25 pixels where he used anothers product as a guide to build his eye texture and then screwed up somehow in PS. Ask him. He has all the original psd files and can show his work.

Oh, well......

I'll say this, and then -- I'm on the road for Christmas.

I've got no use for this "Us vs. Them" stuff.

Renderosity can run their business in any way that they see fit. They must be doing something right -- look at the size of the site. Apparently, just a few people find RR attractive enough. This site is loaded with great things, for anyone that cares to look. The admins here at RR are a lot smarter than some think.

PP has nice forums, and some very good people. PP can also run their business in any way that they see fit.

I intend to remain as a member at both places, and I will continue to buy lots of things from both stores.

As for the personal shots that I keep seeing people make at each other -- for what it's worth, I don't have any use for this type of thing. It's not leading to any solutions. The angry words simply breed more anger. It automatically puts people on the defensive, and ultimately goes nowhere. And "nowhere" is not such a nice place to be.

These types of arguments don't change anyone's mind. They only create needless strife.

Moreover, it's an old saw, but true -- you tend to get what you give.

Thanks, RR, for running a wonderful website.

Thanks, PP, for running a wonderful website.

I choose to stay OUT of the personal stuff.

Have a nice Christmas -- everyone.

"The coordinated, disruptive posts on this site by you and your staff are numerous." - Tim OK, I don't get involved in this sort of thing (go ahead and check if you like, I don't have my Conspiracy(tm) card yet) but that is simply not the case. Have things gotten so around the bend that there is a tinge of paranoia int he air?

Unfortunately, there's some bad blood between Rendie and PP that may never get resolved, though I hope it does.

A big part of the problem, in my opinion, is that there are a few people on each site that do their best to keep the feud going. And, no, I'm not talking about Mendhi or Russell or any of the PP staff. Between the egging on - at both sites - and the past history between the major participants, there's a lot of suspicion, rampant rumors, etc. that make things boil over. Even small disagreements threaten to become major wars sometimes. Everyone starts expecting trouble so when certain people post here, such as Mendhi, some people automatically read it in the worst possible light. (And that happens at PP with some of the Renderosity announcements as well.)

I know Mendhi feels that she'll be jumped on any time she posts here. I almost never post at PP because I feel the same way over there. (Again, I don't think it will be the PP owners or staff that would do it.) The defensiveness in posts when asking questions comes off as hostility sometimes, which worsens the problem. Some members have expressed concern (on both sites) that they feel caught in the middle of the feuds, and that's a shame.

No, things won't improve over night, but I do hope that people can take a step back at times to try to lessen the friction between the sites. The amount of anger that flares is unhealty for everyone. We can learn a lot from each other, while continuing to provide our different visions on how to best serve the community.

It should be possible to disagree without resorting to automatic weaponry. ;-)

Thanks to everyone, on all the sites, for making this corner of the Internet such a great place to hang out. I hope relations can improve over the upcoming year,

Cres

(Sorry if this came out preachy, sappy, or whatever. 'Tis the season and all that.)

(Sorry if this came out preachy, sappy, or whatever. 'Tis the season and all that.) Sometimes, "sappy" is a good thing. Great post, Crescent.

Perhaps, if we had more "sappy" people.....the temperature in the room might go down just a hair.

bijouchat,
Exactly how do those sites relate to what is going on here with the magazine? There has been no fraud, or any artist getting duped or cheated out of something. The submission agreement was very clear that the only payment at best would be a free copy of the magazine. I understood that when I submitted and allowed my artwork to be placed in the magazine and would have understood it in an article as well. There is more to life than just money, and I was thrilled and honored to be included in the printed magazine, one of the highlights of a pretty dreary year. Whether you agree with their policy or you believe it hurts the freelance writers industry or not, it is not fraud and thus I am unclear how those sites relate.

People will go to wherever they feel comfortable, so there is no real benefit to the "My site is better than yours." type thing. In fact, such talk usually winds up doing more harm than good for the poster, at least in my eyes. I find great things at PP, RDNA, 3DC and others, but to me Rosity is the one stop shop for what I do. Others feel that PP is their home and that's cool too. It's certainly a great site for what it does. Different attitudes, different markets, different decisions. Whichever one fits a person's need, that is where they will go. Human nature.

ShadowWind

Mehndi, Please send me a IM or E-mail so we can work this out. I am not going to openly talk about this issue in public. This matter is between You, Me and Dialyn. I do not feel this matter will get resolved when some members keep feeding the fire. This started out as one issue and is now growing into many. Please contact me Thanks Spike spike@renderosity.com

In general, there has been a worrisome trend with businesses trying to see what they can get away with. A major magazine might look at the Renderosity magazine and say, "Gee, if they can get people to submit things to a small mag like that just for exposure, I can get them to submit here and I won't have to pay, either." Then they can turn around and try to downgrade their pay to established artists and writers because they're getting all these submissions by people who want exposure. It's a big problem. People need exposure to improve their chances at landing a paying job and submitting to smaller magazine for print copies is a good way to get exposure, but by submitting for free to get that exposure, they then hurt their chances at getting decent pay. It's a variant on the Catch-22: you can't get a job without experience and can't get experience without a job. Ah, well. If I had all the answers I'd be rich or locked away somewhere. ;-) Cheers!

I've sent you an IM Spike :) Thanks for your help :)

I'm sure it is a big problem and there is nothing wrong with bringing it up for consideration and sharing views on the current market as some have done. I just don't get what sites that target fraudelent publishers has to do with Rosity and their policy.

"People will go to wherever they feel comfortable, so there is no real benefit to the "My site is better than yours." type thing." I didnt say anything about 'my site' being better than yours, so quit putting words in my mouth. The site I moderate at is a sex site dedicated to homosexual art, its definitely not Poser Pros. So don't get it all confused. I speak for myself and not for Gay Poser Art, and although I may post at Poser Pros (like I also post HERE), I am in no way associated with Poser Pros officially. Just as I am not associated with Renderosity officially either. Crescent has hit the nail on the head, read her post. She has cut to the very center of what I was talking about. It undermines the industry when you do not pay your content contributors. It is taking advantage of people to not pay them. They should be compensated in some way. My post was to make at least some of those people aware that they are giving away services they should be charging for, it is not in any way aimed at changing any policy here at Renderosity as I know that to be an utterly futile effort. Merry Christmas.

Crescent said... "Gee, if they can get people to submit things to a small mag like that just for exposure, I can get them to submit here and I won't have to pay, either." Then they can turn around and try to downgrade their pay to established artists and writers because they're getting all these submissions by people who want exposure." yes... exactly. If I had a quarter for every person that has hit me up this way over my erotica renders, I'd be really rich right now. Only one problem... they don't want to pay. I live with a journalist, so I have some experience on this topic. We get calls and emails all the time from "editors" at publications that want this, want that... and then claim the exposure should be pay enough. Well... when this is happening to people who have worked in the business for 20+ years and are established professionals, you have to scratch your head and wonder.

and good will to all CG web sites... Bruce "pushinfaders"

"A major magazine might look at the Renderosity magazine and say, [...]" Crescent, I think that the operative word in your statement is might. The answer is, "Just say no." I gave away my model for the magazine for free, even if they ask money for the magazine. Because I wanted to. Nobody forced me into it. As I see it, I downloaded tons of freebies from here. So why not give one of my own for other people to use? If they start specifically selling it here in the Store without my consent, it would be completely another matter. BTW, there are numerous similar examples, in ... SF, for instance. Small mags or even fanzines don't pay their contributors anything except copies. And people still allow their work to be published there. Renderosity magazine is not 3D World or Computer Arts, it's on the level of a small press magazine, at best. When RRM becomes a big-selling magazine, be certain I won't be giving them my work for free. On that other matter, Tim, you are aware that your repeatedly and publicly stated attitude towards Mehndi doesn't help your position at all? I haven't seen the "numerous attacks" since the quarrel about the exclusivity or whatever it was all those months ago.