Honestly I didnt want to start the new year like this, but some recent events here in Renderosity where the policy tends to be fashioned like: "If you say things we dont like we shut you down" an attitude echoing some of the darkest periods of our recent history as a human race plus the announcement of the January Challenge that I happened to glimpse a few moments ago forces me to initiate this thread, making appeal to you, fellow guests (for it seems that this is exactly what we should consider ourselves from now on), in order to share a few thoughts of philosophical nature (and hoping that censorship which is viewed as an abomination in all of the world's civilized countries would not object to this). The subject of the challenge, as you probably know by now, is A HAPPY FAMILY. "Perfect!" I thought. "Ive been recently working on a picture of this theme maybe I could enter the tournament (for the first time)". I followed the link for the rules and my eye fell on the second line which was standing out in glorious red characters: No nudity, implied sexuality, or violence. Lets keep it clean. And that was that! I was automatically eliminated! For when I was in Art School, you see, they failed to teach me that we have two kinds of Art: Clean and Unclean. This is a new lesson Im learning here in Renderosity and I feel obliged to extend my gratitude to the responsible ruler-makers who helped me understand the obvious: Nude Art = Dirty, Clothed Art = Clean! But then why am I shivering when I imagine these people setting the policy of the Worlds greatest museums the Louvre for example?

First, let me say it's a great pic. I like it a lot. Now, the censorship thing... Yes, we are guests here. It's a privately owned site, and we have to abide by the rules when we sign up. Censorship isn't an issue. What the site owners say, goes. It's that simple. I don't always like some of the decisions made, nor the reasons (as far as I can tell) for them, but that's the breaks. Think of it as being in someone's house. You may wish to exercise freedom of speech, but if the owners object to your behaviour, they'll throw you out. Next, the challenge rules... I agree the wording is iffy on that one. I don't have a problem with the rules as they stand and I'd like to think there's no implication that nudity per se is "dirty". I'll be charitable and think it was a slip of the tongue/keyboard/you get the drift. I think the no nudes rule was created so that people of all backgrounds/beliefs/ages could participate. Whether or not you or I think nudity is objectionable, some people do.

I can partially accept the rule...up to the part 'keep it clean', that sets off my defense sensibilities Alas, yes...we are guests here. It was not always so. Once many moons ago it was a community group...all for one, one for all. Of course there were 'owners-moderators' who had certain rules because that is the bureacratic...sorry, I mean democratic way of doing things. As to the tag line rule mentioned, what did they expect to get a lot of stuff stating that the 'family that sex-plays together, stays together' or something like that? I can't imagine anyone stepping into taboo territory such as that. And I guess if any of you Poser artists just happen to be of the naturist [belief and practice of family/group nudism] movement, you better tread lightly on your subject matter...don't portray your personal familal beliefs in your art. Whatever happened to the old philosophy of: "The Body Beautiful...The Mind Intellectual...The Soul Inspirational"? I now step down off my spinach box b4 I become 'un-guestitized'.

Sam, I hold you in great respect and I'm in total agreement with you on the guest bit. It turned up before and I think that it has been cleared. I may have been a little abrupt in my phrasing but what is right is right. On the other hand, censorship (=prevention of free expression), no matter how one calls it, is a tool of oppression and a dangerous one. As for the freedom of Artistic Expression (I hope that you'll agree with me)... Art cannot be fenced inside any kind of conventions, restrictions or compromises. And people who are involved in the creative process need to have their mind and hearts open --it should be up to them to educate themselves and not to the others to step back and compromise in order to please them, otherwise we "evolve" backwards and downwards. (Imagine for a moment William Blake aligning himself with the "moral" beliefs of a monk of his time!) Sorry, I may sound harsh, but I don't sleep well at night anymore; I keep dreaming of the Inquisition --or worse...

Panko, I appreciate your point about artistic freedom. My take on it is this... Rosity, whatever its form and function, is like any other privately owned place, be it a gallery, house or whatever, in that they can set the rules. I don't see it as censorship. You may have a constitutional right to freedom of expression (I'm assuming you're in the USA), but you do not have a constitutional right to display your works of art absolutely anywhere. If I was to produce an image which violated the TOS here, I'd post it elsewhere, or if push came to shove, I'd start my own website. That's where your freedom of artistic expression comes in. The question of rules/censorship has cropped up from time to time on other websites (one is a music forum I subscribe to) and the consensus seems to be "House Rules do not equal censorship". To use my house analogy again, if you came to my house and started hanging your pictures on my walls, I'd throw you and them out pretty damn quick. Simply put, nothing, but nothing goes on these walls without my say so. Now, if I liked your pictures and you asked me, I may put them on my walls, but that would not be your right, that would be me doing you a favour.

Um, hasn't that rule always been there? Now, I've only been a semi-active member since the end of September, so I could be wrong. I know for a fact that it was in effect for the October challenge because my best friend read the rules and goes "how can you make a Halloween/full moon picture without blood or violence?" snickers Anyway, I like your image, Panko! It looks pretty cool. But, even if there wasn't any nudity, I don't think it would be within the guidelines... From the challenge thread: "Your family could be human or any creature, minumum 3 actors in it, mother-father-child.. As you wish, you can add grannies or other brothers-sisters" Maybe I am reading it wrong, but isn't it supposed to have at least a mother, father, and a child?

Very well stated. I think it's something the members forget time to time.

Sam, what you say makes sense and I don't disagree one bit with it. Maybe I failed to express myself correctly (no, I'm not in the USA :-)... My concern is not about me being allowed to hang any picture anywhere, but with the principle that dictates me what kind of pictures I should make --if I'm to be accepted at all. I'm posting my pictures very rarely, not because I'm afraid they may not comply with the public sensitivity on "morals", but because I hope that my next one would be better... :-) Art cannot be imposed upon the others, it needs to be accepted by them. But, I'll fight to my last breath on this earth to defend my right (constitutional or not) to choose for myself what is good for me to see and what is not. Freedom of expression should be totally unrestrained, otherwise is not freedom at all. The reason that pushed me to post my imperfect and unfinished picture on the forum was not in order to show contempt for my hosts rules/laws but to shout out loud and clear that such rules are not compatible with the reason of existence, the essence itself, of an artistic community. Either this is a home for artists or it isnt. If it isnt then let the hosts say so and Ill respect every rule they set for me, if I choose to stay. In fact the only kind of censure that could be accepted (if we cant live without it) is the one concerning quality. Dont let me hang my painting on the walls of your gallery if you think its not up to the artistic standards you have set and Ill accept it, and Ill work hard to improve myself so my work would stand a better chance in some other occasion. But you have no right none at all to tell me how to paint. "Lets keep it clean" is an insult to my fellow artists and to myself. Laws are made by people Ill never tire repeating this- and as such simply cannot be infallible.

I hope the added labels satisfy you... << Oh; I thought it was supposed to be the kids when the parents are out...:D

Its not very likely that there are any "young-uns" at this site. How many 15 year olds do we know that create art through 3D? Not very many at all if any. Where there is art there is usually only adults. But if there are any "youn-uns" here, then they are more than likely of a mature mind. If they have a no nudity rule then why exactly do they allow downloading of sex position poses, sex toy objects, lingerie designed for use during sex etc. . Do they think that even though a kid might be able to create an image in poser and post it here but be too stupid to figure out what they are downloading from the free stuff sections? Nudity is not "dirty". "Explicit" nudity? Well yes for many it is. I think its really ridiculous. Kids have been to the museum before you know. PeteJ

If you come to my house and I ask you to take off your shoes and you complain about it I would ask you to leave. Come on for crying out loud I think this horse has had it's hide beaten off it's dead little body. Marque

Its not very likely that there are any "young-uns" at this site.<< I meant that the picture looks like the kids are having a party while the Mom and dad are out...

LMAO @ Panko!! I love the labels! =P

All that picture needs now is a fat nasty mother-in-law ready to smack Father over the head with a scimitar for looking at the sister-in-law that way. ;) But yes, I agree with Marque. I honestly don't know why some people always have to try and be the exception to the rule. SnowS

There should be a challenge with box, ball, and pyramid. Yet someone would come along and say that they had to do nudity and that the rules were restrictive and cencorship blah blah blah. The idea behind a Challenge is that everybody stays within the rules of the challenge and tries to do the best they can, pushed by what others do and how they interprit the rules. If there is censorship or a problem then just don't participate in the Challenges. The idea behind that line 'rule' is probably to stop people from submitting kiddy porn and keep it at least clean. Shadows in the picture are all off or non existant, the floor is at a odd angle, and what is the red Jello they are supposed to be sitting on. can I date the Aunt please? wanders off grumbling into the darkness

Art cannot be imposed upon the others, it needs to be accepted by them.<< This statement sounds really deep and philosophical and all, but it makes no sense. You say that "art cannot be imposed" on others, but then you say they "need to accept it". Well, they don't "need to accept" anything. That would be "imposing" on them. If you feel the need to post your art to the world on the Internet, why don't you create your own website and then you can put whatever you want on it. Besides, there are other Poser community websites that probably don't have rules, or they have different rules. Why not post there? You are blaming people for being "judgemental" or "prudes", but aren't you being just as bad by expecting them to accept and adopt your moral standards? Just because you think your picture depicts a perfectly normal "family" and maybe even the way a family "should be", doesn't mean that others do, and they have as much right to speak against it as you do for it. If you were to enter your art in any other kind of contest, there more than likely would be rules and guidelines for the entry. If you don't like the rules for entry, then you don't enter in that contest. You look for one that is more acceptable to what you expect, instead of demanding that the contest holders "change their rules", because you think they are censoring you or stifling your artistic expression, or whatever. I totally agree with SamTherapy. This is R'osity's house and R'osity's rules. If you don't like the hospitality or the way the R'osity "family" lives its life, then perhaps you should visit someone else's house and tell them how they should behave.

Its not very likely that there are any "young-uns" at this site. < As a matter of fact, I have a two year old on my lap as I write this, and there's a four year old floating around behind me somewhere, able to see anything I have on my monitor at any time. Fortunately, nudity is not an issue in our household, and they've seen plenty of nude Poser models on my screen as I worked on various images (but I do avoid Renderotica when they're up and about ;)). My feeling is that people who cannot "afford" to view nudity should set their profile so that nudity is filtered, and that those who wish to make images with nudity in them should flag their images, and that's about the best compromise we're going to get. The Challenges here are meant to be challenges, which means that you are to make an image that complies with the rules of the challenge. It's not at ALL unlike an assigment in art school (yes, I went to art school), where you have to fulfill certain requirements for a project. You may have constraints put on you as to what you may NOT do, as well as things you MUST do, etc. Generally speaking, in art school nudity isn't one of the issues, but I had an instructor who told us about a required project he got where the students had to do a nude self-portrait... ;-) I can imagine assignments that would specify no nudity, as well. The point of a Challenge, in my personal estimation, is to have to work within the boundaries. Working against restrictions forces you to think and grow in different ways (at least, this has been my experience). It's not much of a challenge if the rules are "Do anything you please, however you want to do it." Not much challenge there... ;-) I do agree that the use of the words "clean" and "dirty" are inappropriate on ANY art site, including this one. The TOS allows for nudity and there is no "dirty" flag. Why bring "cleanliness" into it at all? As for the picture, it's not bad at all, but the harem girls are too thin. There should be a couple of more rubenesque women in there, according to all the historical research I've done and heard about harems. ;-) bonni

Setting restrictions in contest rules is unarguably fair. If the rules had said "no use of the colour orange" - well, that's the way they are, and an artist should be able to rise to the challenge. The only objection is to the implication that nudity is "dirty", which presumably is the personal opinion of the person writing the rules, and who is accountable for that remark. That may be their personal opinion, but it was insensitive to air it in this manner. As the anti-nudism campaigner remarked, "If God had meant us to run around without any clothes on, we'd have been born naked!"

This site is noit a site for art This site is a site for wannabees as art is about form and making a point and to shock to create debats. But here its about money and nothing else seeklight

Yeah I agree that one needs to follow the rules in anothers house but it still its pahtetic if it was a "policy" But if it was for a specific art challenge to like no color orange or nothing but poser then thats how it should be followed. PeteJ

To quote Cyhiraeth: "If you don't like the rules for entry, then you don't enter in that contest. You look for one that is more acceptable to what you expect..." Which is what I'll be doing. It's not the "Keep it clean" reference that I find particularly unacceptable. I've come to expect those sort of remarks from most online communities. Rather it is the line "...minumum 3 actors in it, mother-father-child.." that I find objectionable. What of the families that include two mothers or fathers? Or those who choose not to have children? "Traditional - Happy Family Portrait"? The implication here, intended or not, is that there is only one acceptable type of "traditional family." I'll be looking elsewhere for this months inspiration.....

RedHawk, that is my problem with the challenge as well. It's not the fact that it requires a mother, father, and child, it's the implication that that is the "traditional happy family" and everything else isn't considered a family structure.

I haven't seen the challenge, I haven't read all the rules, but with the argument about clean and nudity, how about a render of a father sitting in a bath tub, washing and playing with his young child while the mother sits nearby smiling...laughing...helping....holding out a towel. Clean, Nude, Fun, Family.

Er, love the costuming...where's it from? I figure that its the old "our ball, our bat, our backyard" type of thing. They provide the space, they pay the bills, they make the rules. Kinda like living with your parents. I have no real problem with the rules, I'd just like to see them applied across the board. I've noticed that some of the more proficient artists get away with a lot more than those who are struggling to learn the art form. Also, those who have spent more money in the marketplace for props tend to get passed by when the censors make their sweeps. Ah, well...this is democracy at its finest. Everyone has the right to an opinion and the person who's paying for the forum has the right to dictate how its used.

Well, I deleted my entire gallery because of the hypocrisy of accepting loathsome violence, even sadism, naive nineteenth century patriotism etc, but being shocked by some nudity, and selling female sex meshes but being against images showing what exactly is sold. This said: I agree with the rules for the conquest. And this for the simple reason that if the subject were a landscape, it would be accepted as being ok. And I do find, but that is entirily personal, that the nudity on this site is seldom of a quality that inspires me, which is the main goal of art. Besides: hey, the sellers of clothes also need some help from time to time.

"Your family could be human or any creature, minumum 3 actors in it, mother-father-child.. As you wish, you can add grannies or other brothers-sisters" So, 2 gay men or 2 lesbians can't be a familly????? Tell that to my partner....

UHHHH having probs with the "Family" concept then do it with creatures! damn it's IN the challenge statement. how about horses, toon animals. geez the POINT of a challenge is to think outside the box while staying within the confines of the challenge. It's not like the challenge is a right wing christian goodie goodie pink sheets and rose only. where IS the issue here. There are SOOO many poser sites with different challenges around, sites catering to erotica, homosextual and lesbiens man. if you don't like the challenge, then dont do them, but complaining and going on about how restrictive the 'rules' are is simply lame. I love the art school example someone posted here. I had SOOO many restrictive things I had to draw in art class, professor bullyin to stay within the limits he set. BUT it made me think, and come up with interesting things to stay within his set of guidelines and do something the other students weren't doing. geee a challenge. Hey I BET YOU you can't....it's a challenge. done gotta move on with my life to short for this crap.

OK... My message seem to have fallen flat and here we go with yet another pointless argument about law and order and moral and ethics... Sorry, this was not my intention as it was certainly not my intention to attract the limelight on me --I have better things to do-- otherwise I wouldn't have chosen an imperfect, unfinished picture to illustrate my point. Lets see This site is privately owned. It is a commercial one --and therefore "public". It depends upon it's "guests" slash "customers" to survive --if I don't buy they cease to exist. Therefore I'm not merely a guest; I'm "a guest bearing gifts". Now, I happen to like this place --not for its mentality but for the people who come here to share their knowledge and art with me; the most wonderful and generous people I ever met. This makes it more than just a shop or guesthouse with rules --it makes it a community. As I like being here it is my duty to help improving it in any way I can. If I happen to stumble upon something that appears to be wrong I need to point it out in the hope that someone will take the time and effort to think it over again and if need be possibly correct it. Discrimination in art, as in society --and by the way I certainly don't see why "non-mainstream" families should be outcasts-- is wrong. A law/rule in a community that perpetrates wrong should change --Nazi Germany had a score of very cozy laws and rules that led where they led. We are thinking beings, no sheep to blindly follow the leader. ...and for one last time... ART CANNOT BE RESTRICTED BY RULES Having said this I apologize to whoever felt his feelings hurt by this thread; this was not my intention, believe me. And I promise that from now on Ill stick to purely technical matters such as "my shadows are off and my renders suckwhat should I do?", leaving the philosophical issues to more able to discuss. But the way things go nowadays everywhere- make me very nervous. This is my last post on this (and other philosophical) matters farewell and goodbye. :-)

Machine, dude, WTF? I can only speak for myself here, but I DON'T have a problem with the rules or limits of the challenge. What's the point of a challenge without them? However, I DO have a problem with the subtle (or not so subtle depending upon your view) implication that the only traditional or happy family is one that consists of at least a mother, father, and a child. Some of us aren't blessed with such perfection. As for the challenges, I look forward to them every month. They help me learn and create different things in different ways. I have no problem with the rules or the guidelines set forth for each challenge. The only problem I have is stated above, and that really doesn't have anything to do with the challenge itself, IMO.

maybe I totally missed it. I thought the example of a father, mother, and child was not a set in stone had to be rule. I thought it was an example to the challenge. with the creature example given I thought it was expansive. one of the family snapshots that I hold dearly is of me and father, grandfather, and great grandfather, no females. I thoght that with the rules as stated a poser render of the same thing would qualify. how about the clone family where the son, father, and mother all looked alike, a sci fi family snapshot. how about the aliens on vacation, all the Greys would be the same infront of the spaceship. horses with the yearling all together by a stream. maybe I've missed it but the challenge to me seems very broad and only set a simple guideline. wtf do I know I'm just a simple old crumugen.

To me, the image presented has less to do with the "Happy Family" theme, and more to do with the "Happy Hetero Male" theme...apparently, even within the confines of his [extended] family, the male subject of this image is afforded the luxury of pursuing man's apparently favorite sport: ogling perfectly-formed female breasts. (And how convenient that same male subject has no other male members of his extended family with whom to "share the wealth?") Panko, there are plenty of opportunities to exhibit bosom-rich images at Renderosity--the Poser galleries are completely overrun with them (my own bosom-free images get lost in this mix, alas!). To try to post your image under the "Happy Family," and then cry foul, and go so far as to liken the situation to Nazi germany seems like overkill to me. (In spite of this, Panko, I would still imagine, from having read your posts above, that you are a basically a nice guy.)

I think you might be is the word "trawling"? I Don't give a damn about nudity... but I can't go to Freestuff with my children in the room on account of the sexual violence depicted with "decently" clothed figures despite my protests to the moderators that these images are clearly agressive attempts to offend since the props in question although offensive in and of themselves could be thumbnailed without the depiction of terrified victom. But as a comedian once said... in the USA a move gets an "R" rating if it shows a woman's naked breast... it gets a "PG" rating if it shows a woman's naked breast getting hacked off. But you know... this is their show... there are other forums for people looking for other things... It would be good if we had a forum where one could call up pages at work or in the family room without concern (yours meets these parameters in my opinion). For all we know the people running the site are trying to promote 3D work in Saudi Arabia or something... I live in North American and half the people in my neighborhood (or more accuratly one quarter) walk arourd in hajib/chador so...

panko, panko, panko... Passing this image off as a family of in-laws is a crack up. That is not an insult or a slam. I really find it amusing and am laughing. This is a dude getting ready to (how shall we say) frolic with the ladies. Or he just did. Maybe it's just my dirty mind? "NOT" That comeback is a big yawn. Again this is not a slam. I really find it amusing and am laughing. Then the labels... ROFLMAO... I sure wouldn't want to be the naked Father trying to explain to certain Husbands why he is hanging out with there naked wives. Happy Family Unit? Hmmm... scratching my chin Again this is not a slam. I really find it amusing and am laughing. Laughing really hard now. Oh... and tell Grang Ma to stop looking at her "same age" Grand Daughter that way. Ewwwwwww... ROFL... Did I mention that this is not a slam? I really find it amusing and am laughing. I'm glad I'm not stupid enough to believe this crap. That was not a slam. In my best Homer voice Mmmmmm.... Slam Handwich! LOL really really hard now!

Pookah, as I've already stated above the picture and it's content is meant as a humorous comment on what I consider to be inadmissible restrictions. But, if this were my (only) idea of the "happy family" what problem do you have with that? I happen to like boobs, maybe you don't --so what? We are entitled to our differences of opinion (a free world and all that)...:-) As for the comment on Nazi Germany perhaps you should re-read in what context it was meant. Sorry if you took it wrong. (And no, I'm not a basically nice person. I'm a bad person who insults his hosts and produces unclean art...:-) Roger and out for good this time. Have all a happy new year.

LawnDart, I'm so glad that you had such a good time! Laughter prolongs human life considerably I'm told. Maybe we should learn to laugh more often... :-) I depart laughing my head off....

I agree that we should all laugh more often. Cheers...

Well, I'm glad everyone got that out of their system.

Oh, and by the way, the challenge is "Family Portrait", not "happy family". You don't have to be happy, just non violent.

...and clothed.

Hi Eric! =) Just to clarify, does the image have to have a mother, father, and a child? With the option of adding more family members if we wish? Thanks!

What about single-parent families? Or parentless families being raised by an adult sibling? (my grandmother's family was like that).

When you enter a contest [Any Contest] - you agree to the rules of the contest - if your image does not follow the contest rules - your entry will not be accepted.

• If you feel that your image is within the contest rules - enter the contest
• If you do not feel that your image is within the scope of the contest's rules - do not enter the contest.

Each Forum Challenge has its rules.
Each Contest has its rules.

• The Poser Forum Challenge does not allow nudity.
• This is nothing new about the Poser Challenge Rules
• The rules for the Poser Challenge have been in place for a year.
• The winner of the previous months Poser Challenge gets to pick the theme for the next month's challenge
• the winner of December's Challenge picked the theme of: "Family Portrait".

This challenge is about the family concept. Show us your poser family in a traditional way: A Happy-Family Studio Portrait.. Your family could be human or any creature, minumum 3 actors in it, mother-father-child.. As you wish, you can add grannies or other brothers-sisters

Also by entering the Challenge you agree to the Challenge Rules

Dee-Marie

Thanks for the clarification, Dee-Marie. I just wanted to make sure I was understanding the mother-father-child guideline. =) -=LovePyrs=-

There are two issues here. One is the actual rules page for the challenge (which remains the same month to month) and the other is the specific theme. Since the theme is picked by the previous month's winner, the appropriate place to ask theme questions is in the theme thread which is linked in the challenge page and also in the forum banner. Should be easy to find. I'll answer theme questions there.

Heh...

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=1595389

ART CANNOT BE RESTRICTED BY RULES But contests can. Get over it and move on.

Changing the subject slightly: Panko- your picture is very well done and technically very good and is even impressive with all those figures. But, you should probably know by now that your image won;t stand a chance of coming even close to winning. I don't mean this to sound harsh, but it's the truth: the winning image will be 99% airbrushed in Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro and be done by an artist whom we've never heard of. These artists never post in the forums, never post an image gallery, but they make one image to win the contest. Don't believe me? Just check the past winners of the contests, including the magazine cover contests. Tell me if you've heard of any of the winners and try to find their last forum post.

John, I think I get your drift... LOL As I explained already in the beginning of this thread it was not my intention to enter this or any other contest. I used the picture to merely illustrate a point --as it turned out it proved to be a mistake.