The following is from the front page of his site: I will be shutting down my Renderosity Store at the end of January 2004. I will still offer technical support for purchasers of my current products. I have decided to close down my Renderosity store indefinitely. I am taking a sabbatical from being a merchant because the nature of what I do has always been about innovation, and innovation is not copyrightable. I have recently been informed that techniques or hacks created from Poser files are actually the intellectual property of the owners of Poser, not of the person that developed the hack. So, the Remote Control Dynamic Deformer System that took me two years to develop is essentially public property, and reversed engineered versions of the process are already on the market less than a month after my first release. I understand that the Poser community as a whole will benefit from this policy. I can't stress how much respect I have for Renderosity, as it is the only true "people's" Poser community. But I can no longer emotionally afford to spend years developing process that take a week or two to reverse engineer. So, as of 31 January, 2004, I will shut my Renderosity store down. I do not know when, or if, I will ever return to Renderosity as a Merchant. I will still stay and active part of the Renderosity community and will continue to provide tech support as for all of my products. I am ready to answer any questions you may have.

Now THIS is a shame. A real shame.

That is terrible news. I have purchased many of Wyrmmaster's products and find them extremely useful. The Vixxen set with the Remote Control Deformers is fantastic. I will truly miss the potential innovations that now shall never come into existence.

:(

Will your products be available anywhere else? or is this our last chance to get them? ...I've been eyeing them but hadn't gotten to it yet ya see ....

Very sad. We'll miss you. I've been eyeing up your products lately and was waiting until I got my tax refund... now it looks like I will miss out! I wish you luck... and peace.

Great love and respect to Wyrmmaster, but he's fallen into a trap that many of us succumb to: believing somebody other than a judge and jury when told that he has no rights to an idea or a process. I don't know who told him that, but if it was the people who have usurped his idea, then they are absolutely the last people to believe. It's a crude analogy, but it's almost like believing a thief when he tells you your television actually belongs to him.

0.0 This is horrible news! I, for one, am a big fan of Wyrmmaster's products and always look forward to his new creations. I don't care that the owners of poser are putting out or have put out something similar to what he has created. Poser may have created the means to do it, but he has worked so hard to perfect it and has been a big asset to us all. Seems to me they just want to take the ride on his coat tails, now that he has done all the work! I know for a fact we won't get the same quality of support he gives! Trying to get help with anything from the "other" people is like tap dancing through a mine field from my experience. Actually, the mine field seems like a friendlier place to me. I agree with mateo on this too. They may have provided the means, by Wyrmmaster developed the technology. Like I said early in this post, they now want to phase him out so that they can ride on the coat tails of all of his hard work. Shame on them! Wyrmmaster, I wish you the best, I hate it, but I understand your stand on this. I appreciate your hard work on your products and all you have done for the community.

I don't know how they knew this, but someone at the Poser newsgroup said that he has a forthcoming product for Stephanie 3 which will be sold somewhere, just not here. I hope it's true. Gotta get Victoria Vixxen before it disappears!

That would be awesome! I hope it's true also. I am so glad the mil is giving us our paychecks on the 30th.... catch up really quick on the stuff of his in my wish list.

Please do not think these comments as being meant to be negative in any way. I am trying to understand something here that is confusing me, and I am hoping someone can help enlightment me.

First, let me say I am not overly familar with Wyrmmasters products. I am not even sure what is meant by Remote Control Deformers. Unless it has something to do with the one product, by him, that I am familar with.

I did purchase his Voluptuous Vicki 2003, just before he discontinued it. I bought it, in part thinking this was the same as the orginal Voluptuous Vicki which I had seen as a character in a render I liked. So the purchase was mostly made out of curiousity. I was a bit surprised and even a bit disappointed at first to see that what I gotten for my money was basically a magnet set and a few pose files. Keep in mind, that I have been using magnets to make morphs, size and move hair and clothing, etc., ever since I first got started in Poser, so this is almost second nature to me. And I did not particularly care for the default body shape for VV03 - since I did not see any resemblence to the character I thought I was getting. Then I found the original character pose and vola, I was happy.

I have no complaints with the purchase of VV03, so let me be perfectly clear about that. I have made magnet sets, and I have hacked pp2 and cr2 files to make special pose files like MAT and MOR files. These have become quite common in Poser Land, and there are even utilities out there now being sold to do this quicker so that only old dogs like me insist on manually hacking the files in a text editor.

Now, again, I am not entirely certain what is meant by Remote Control Deformers, unless it makes reference to the Pose files Wyrmaster included to change the magnet settings so that they apply to the clothing item as well.

If so, than if this is what he orginated, I can sort of see the problem. Since just about everything else that someone figure out a way to hack and turn into a pose file has been done. Be it Props so that they can be positioned or textured via a pose, or lights, such as the global lights, and we all know about the pose files to set Material, Map, and Morph settings. In fact, just recently I was asking in the python section if there was a script to save Magnets settings as a Pose file. This had nothing to do with Wyrmaster or my having any idea or desire to rip off a concept he may have originated. The simple fact is that I started some time ago using Magnet to make FBMs for the clothing items I do. This can be time consuming, so I am always looking to find ways to streamline my work. The first thing I did was keep my magnet sets as I made them up so that I could reuse them on other things. They never fit just right, so they always have to be tweaked a bit, but it is a starting point.

Later, I started hacking the pp2, so that I could make a pose file to load the settings for the different magnet sets. This was done without any knowledge of Wrymaster or anything he may have innovated. Nor was it done as something to be marketed. It simply saved me from having to delete all the magnets from one set, after I had made the first FBM, and then load the next. Now, I could leave the magnet set loaded, click the pose file, and suddely I had the next FBM.

Recently I came across some new python scrips, such as those for mirroring magnets from one side to the other. Also one for deleting all magnets in a scene, etc. I even found one - just yesterday - that I have not even tried out yet, that supposedly will let me make morph targets from all body parts from the magnets at one time, instead of having to go through and spawn each morph part by part.

These are all innovative ideas that are becoming part of the Poser world. I am not sure how you can claim interlectual property when so many new ideas or based upon ideas that went before. For example, had Poser not come out with dynamic deformers, such as the magnets, who would be bothering to make magnet sets or pose files for magnets sets to sell? Consider Poser hair before the days of Kozoburo - does anyone even recall that hair used to be very plastic, and that we owe almost a single debt of thanks to one individual for his first tutorial of his original and at that time very revolutionary hair making process? Which btw was free. In fact, some of the best Poser hair available IMHO is by Koz and all you have to do to get it is go to his web site and download it.

Now, having said all this, I can understand wyrmaster's sense of resignation after having spent two years developing his system, only to see it being copied and marketed within a month of his coming out with his innovation. That is truly sad, because I am sure that he now regrets all those long hours he spent when he could have been doing something else. I did not originate the idea of putting morphs on clothing, but I have tried to do my part to take the ball and run with it, and make clothing that functions more real world like - as typical of my GypsyRose Bikini or the AllnWonder dress, etc. I have heard rumors - only rumblings mind you - that some folks are actually taking and buying those outfits (and perhaps even, shudder, giving them away under the table so to speak - since we all know these things happen) after I spent hours and hours making all those morphs. They run to Tailor, and - no say it ain't so - and transfer the morphs I made for that item onto similar style clothing in a hope to get it to work the same (er, sometimes it even does).

I am still unclear on DAZ position on using Tailor to transfer (or make, whichever is the correct term) FBM from, say, V2 onto a clothing item you plan to sell. To be safe, I use magnets to make the morphs. Tailor, I am sure, would be faster and easier on some things. Should I then be upset that some folks are being - as they would look at it - innovative and using the morphs I made to put (or simulate) onto other clothing items they own. To my knowledge they are not yet selling these items, but who knows. What then? Well, I guess more power to them. I do it for the love, and if I could afford to, I would give it all away. But unfortunately, due to real life issues, I am sort of forced for the time being to rely on making Poser stuff as a source of income. Now, it does sometimes hurt when you see how few, by comparison, of your store items get sold in respect to how much of your free items get downloaded. What! Don't these greedy Bds know I am trying to make a living here? But then I quickly get over it because I remember that I too am one of those greedy little bds who has certainly downloaded far more free stuff than he has purchased. (Not that I haven't bought more than I needed to at times.)

Sharing and being innovative is what Poser was - originally - all about, and still is, I think. That is how it has come to be so popular, and why it will continue to grow, because each new generation of Poser user has a few very creative innovators pushing the envelope, and sharing their discoveries for all to benefit from.

So, my question, and the point upon which I am confused, is what is to be done about it all? I can certainly empathize with wyrmaster and I agree that is just does not seem right to see two years of blood, sweat, and tears just gobbled up in front of your eyes before you can blink twice. On the other hand, where would we be without these innovations, and the sharing of new ideas to spark more new ideas? How do we protect and perserve the creativity of the innovators against the ravagings of a thriving, driving Poser community that has grown very commercial in its focus? It is inevitable now that as fast as a new idea come about, others are going to grab and run with it, and even expand upon it. All in the new spirit of competiton. So, what are we going to do to keep alive the heart and soul of such innovators, such as wyrmaster, who are inspired by their passion to be creative and innovative, only to find themselves sucked dry?

Shadownet, you are guessing incorrectly about the Remote Control technology. It is a big enhancement of WM's previous magnet sets. It allows an extra prop to adjust many magnets simultaneously by 1 dial manipulation. This results in a very swift, smooth change. With VV3 you had to change several magnets to get a good breast-bounce, or sag. I have seen a similar technique on, I believe, the Sara free figure by DarkWhisper. It was more of a handle-style prop. Maybe this is the product/usage WM is referring to? I highly recommend Wyrmmaster's latest, and perhaps last product. It is awesome!

WHAT!!!!! nooo, all my favorite merchants are leaving, neftis, wyrmmaster, byte me ok, WHAT IS HAPPENIN' :( i'm really sad, i hope that no one else goes :( tears

Attached Link: " target="_blank">

Connatic, thank you for setting me straight. All the more sad, then, to see such hard work go willothewisps on him. Even more reason why we need to be looking at what can be done to keep alive both the spirit of the innovator and the benefit that can be had in allowing the seed brought forth to blossum and grow.

I am sorry to hear about his leaving ... but in the end nothing about the magnet sets or the way they are controlled IS actually somehting he can keep as intellectual property. It is not a copyrightable concept. It is not a patentable concept. (well, he might get a patent, but it woudln;t stand up to a challenge). Just like when one person figured out MAT and MOR files others don't have to pay them for that priviledge... once these magnet sets are out "in the wild" there is really nothing protecting them from someone else reverse engineering the process. It's a sad reality - but it IS a reality. It has nothign to do with these hacks and the people who made Poser... it has much more to do with the basic premise of what is and isn't a protectable concept.

This is a major loss. Veronika Vixxen was a major leap forward in "character technology." The technology great, but the aesthetics and "morphability" really make the product excellent. The hell with the reverse engineered "copies," I want Wyrmmaster's Product!! Please don't give up, Wyrmmaster. You have invested too much time and effort to walk away now.

To Quote nakamuram: "The hell with the reverse engineered "copies," I want Wyrmmaster's Product!! Please don't give up, Wyrmmaster. You have invested too much time and effort to walk away now." The name Wyrmmaster has come to = quality products.

okay .... I've counted my pennies ... which one should I get? opinions folks? I can only manage one sigh but I have some pinups in my future and I'll need VV or a similar babe then so ....

My vote is Veronica Vixxxen 2004,but his Cherry Charming 2004 my be more to your liking. They both have the new Remote Control stuff. Excellant!!!

dang shame, if we keep losing (or almost losing) folks, ah'm gonna hafta start nailing some feet to the floor..;)

I wonder if those whole thing has to do with the new magnet set in the Marketplace by William the Bloody. Wyrmmaster even commented on it, and I remember when it was first posted, it said in the title "Possible Copyright Infringement" (which was quickly removed). I hope that WTB isn't simply taking advantage of this apparently un-copyrightable technique to create such as similar product with no respect to Wyrmmaster's original idea. Regardless, I hope Wyrmmaster reconsiders. No matter who else may create similar methods, his name always brings to mind two things...huge breasts and the quality products to help create them. :) SnowS

I deeply sympathize with him. The community stores and customers need to be more supportive of the innovators and try to help them out. I remember when Merrilyn and I figured out subdividing material poses. There were stocking packs out within days. I knew there was nothing that could be done once it was released, but it would have been nice if people at least allowed some time to pass before releasing them everywhere including freestuff. -Anton "People say imitation is the highest form of flattery. It really isn't."

.. "People say imitation is the highest form of flattery. It really isn't." Here here. This is really, really sad news.

The hell with the reverse engineered "copies," I want Wyrmmaster's Product!! Please don't give up, Wyrmmaster. You have invested too much time and effort to walk away now." The name Wyrmmaster has come to = quality products. I'll have to also vote for the original as well. I rather liked the product I purchased and would have considered buying more. Reconsider please!

I had the time, inclination, and desire for a magnet set for Stephanie Petite. When I made it there was no other Magnet set for STephanie Petite available. So, I made one. I offer it for sale. That does not mean that Wyrmmaster has to leave, or stop making product. When competition heats up, the idea is not to leave the marketplace, but make your product even better than the other guy. My history is similar to Shadownets in my own independant knowledge of Cr2 editing and magnet use. That is not to say I didn't learn anything from Wyrmmaster...not at all. Much like I would've never thought of spacing a couple of dozen lights equidistantly and keeping them dim until Blackhearted's Global Lighting was introduced. Now, I could probably make my own if time/inclination inspired me to do so. I tried to give Wyrm a percentage, but it created a messy situation where his name was associated with the product. Since that time, Wyrm and I have come to an understanding, in which he relays the following: This is Wyrmmaster. I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not leaving Renderosity because of William_the_Bloody's product. I am leaving because I have to re-think the way I produce products. My Dynamic Deformer system was possible because of the efforts of people like Nerd, rbtwiz, DAZ, and others who shared thier techniques and hacks with the community. EVEN IF I COULD HAVE LEGALY BLOCKED HIS PRODUCT I WOULD NOT HAVE DONE SO! He contacted me before he released his product and he tried to give me 20 percent of his product, out of respect for my effort pioneering the techniques. He is a mature, responsible member of the community with a great understanding of how poser files work. I wish him the best of luck and you should to. (Sent 1/17 20:57) Keep in mind that Wyrm has said he would sell product elsewhere. There isn't really any loss, there are now only more choices for you. To those of you who are awaiting his Steph Petite package, I am certain you will have an excellent product. -WTB

Take a look at Wyrmmaster's gallery, there are several renders of his new SP3 product and the news about him leaving Renderosity. It almost looks like he was ready to call it quits a couple of days ago, but he didn't go quite that far -- Thank God!! As for WTB's product, Wyrmmaster's comment is: "Nice product. Works well and is very functional." They both strike me as honest men and fair competitors.

I'm glad to hear about the agreement between WTB and Wyrmmaster, thanks for letting us all know. With all the bad blood lately between feuding merchants, it's nice to hear intelligent, cooperative news about them as well. SnowS

Too right!

bookmark

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=583464&Start=1&Artist=%2DYggdrasil%2D&ByArtist=Yes

I'm not sure what is going on but I really don't like it! Wyrmmaster has not only treated me far better than I deserved but his (and Wyrmmistress)'s art has been an inspiration! Anything that causes problems for WM just isn't right! His work has not only inspired many, but has also helped increase revenue for Renderosity and DAZ. Hang in there and don't give up! You are the Master after all!

So, where can we buy his Steph Petite magnet set? At his Web site? He can't say in the gallery, but surely someone can say here!

Been wondering the same thing. Must find out :-)

I can't for the LIFE of me see what Wyrm has to gain by leaving Rosity MP - I mean, his stuff sells well as it is. All he does is lose the revenue from products already developed and selling today. They cost him no effort other than the support part. And cashing in his cheques. OK, his thinking about future development and the quick reverse engineering of that - maybe I can buy that. But the stuff already there??? Why pull that? I don't get it. I've bought many of his products before and am still considering a couple more. If he pulls, he loses income. Simple. What's the point? This kind of overreaction always puzzles me. It's about like Coca Cola saying, "Well, now somebody else has released another cola rather similar to ours. So we're dropping out of the market." ????? Huh? :] Fish

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=583198&Start=1&Artist=wyrmmaster&ByArtist=Yes

He also explains a bit why he's closing his store. His solution to the problems Shadownet discusses is to start selling items with less innovation (and presumably less development time), for lower prices. But to do that, he feels he has to close his store for awhile. I guess so people who bought at higher prices won't be angry.

Sounds like he's considering taking the BVH/Quarker tack - put out products of such high quality, priced so low, that no one will bother buying copies. And you make up in sales volume what you lose on profit margin.

I want to stress something here: Nobody, to my knowledge "Reverse Engineered" anything. The item in question is the remote prop, which is a ghost prop with no geometry and no function other than to master the magnets. This was not new technology that Wyrmmaster developed. Folks have been hacking cr2's for a long, long time now and ghost props previously existed on other items to control all sorts of things. He was simply the first, that I'm aware of, to attach them to magnets and release them. -WTB

I was just looking at Cherry Charming and Veronica Vixxen (both 2004). Have neither. I do have VolVicki 203 and Sarah Spriteling however (and plenty of other stuff besides) Is the technology in Cherry and Veronica so radical that it is a major step forward from Sarah, for instance? Do I gain anything by buying one of the 2 newest girls? :] Fish

Fish, see message 12 above.

The Remote system is great, Fish. Rather than trying a million poses and adjusting the magnets themselves individually, you can now control an entire region in unison. Say for example you wanted to create larger breasts. You pick the breast remote, and slide mag scale up until you're happy. This one channel operates 4 or more magnets in unison affecting, smootly, 3 or 4 different groups. This saves endless time and you're not limited to the stock models Wyrm always names his packages after. The same is true of my set, but mine is for stephanie Petite. -WTB

Also, of Wyrm's latest, there are 2 or 3 different packs if memory serves, but all are the same set of magnets. In his ad copy, he says you only need to buy one I believe. -WTB

Like shadownet, I'm not sure I'm following the reasoning here... coming from a technical background, I have a lot of respect for Wyrm (and Nerd and rbtwiz and Anton and Koz and ockham and stewer and all the other Poser innovators). While they might wish it were otherwise, it's always been pretty clear (to me, at least) that none of these techniques were protectable... I'm sure Anton can relate to that as he's had to deal with it on more than one innovation. Wyrm even states himself that his work was made possible by the innovations and techniques developed by others before him. The best he can do (and has done, btw) is build a reputation for devlivering quality/innovative products. The customers will (and have, btw) remember and reward you for your efforts. He also said that he was closing his store HERE, but nothing about his store(s) elsewhere. As long as you can purchase his products 'somewhere', then closing his store here doesn't fix/solve or even curtail the stated issue... there must be more to the story somewhere. Anyway, I wish him nothing but the best and success - wherever his storefront is. Innovation is admirable and helps the entire community move forward, so he has my repect and thanks for his past and future efforts. - Keith

Ooops.. looks like I x-posted... thanks for the link randym77 - that explains things better.

..what the hell? This is precisely the thing that keeps me from persuing becoming a merchant. You bust your ass to create, or in this case innovate, put it out there and the vulchers copy/hack/steal and sell it right in front of you IMMEDIATELY. Sorry this is happening to you Wyrm. Good luck with it all :-) -gz-

It's "Vultures" -WTB

ok ok ok ok... Just to clear up the fire I may have set with my previous statement. I wasn't making my statement in the context of WTB and Wyrm's situation per se. Granted, my opinion may have been OT for this thread. For that I apologize. After having reread my statement in the context of the rest of the thread I see the potential for it being taken the wrong way. Again, I was referring to the more "global" problem that exists in the MP these days (which is a problem). Also, I realized after posting that "vulchers" should of course has been "vultures", but with the lack of an EDIT button, wasn't much I could do about it :)

..and "has" would be "have"...just to be clear

This sucks... wish you all the best wyrmmaster. Brad.

At least we have a little warning to catch up on wishlist items. I have to agree with Fishnose that I don't see much advantage in packing up shop completely rather than just leaving it open for anyone who continues to want to buy stuff. It's odd to notice also that the last two products are listed as Renderosity exclusives. Still, if that's the way Wyrmmaster sees it, it's his call.

Not to belabor the point, but because it's relevent to this thread, WTB writes: "Much like I would've never thought of spacing a couple of dozen lights equidistantly and keeping them dim until Blackhearted's Global Lighting was introduced..." ...while I can't say for certain whether this was or wasn't built on the efforts of others (I hadn't heard one way or the other), it hit the marketplace on Dec. 1st, 2001. I downloaded a set of GI lights from freestuff on Oct. 15th (a month and a half earlier) that Anton made... and in his readme, Anton referred to a link at the Comic Collective (that was presumably an even earlier date) where he got the idea/inspiration. The point is, someone had to be the first to come up with each new idea or method and others adopt and build on those ideas and the community as a whole, benefits. If you're the idea guy and you're lucky, you get some amount of lead time to proffit from your ideas (assuming that's your intention), but once the cat's out of the bag, you can't really stuff it back in ;). That's just the way things have always been. Wyrm became (and is currently, as best as I can tell) a top 10 merchant here, by providing quality/innovative products in a category where he's had next to zero comptetition for the past few years. That's something he can be proud of and reap the rewards of at the same time. From reading his extended thoughts in the above link (post #36, above), it's clear that Wyrm realizes the reality of the situation and is just trying to regroup... He's not crying foul or pointing fingers - and we shouldn't either.

I don't think it's a good comparison. Wyrm's deformer kits are a quite specialised tool for a particular task (modifying body geometry). Lighting arrangements, on the other hand, are a requirement in any CGI. There are many possible arrangements depending on the sort of image you want to create. If I look back at my scene files, I will see all sorts of set-ups: the classic four-light scheme, numerous dim lights (to say this is anyone's new invention is absurd), single spots, pseudo-stage lighting and many other arrangements designed to enhance each individual scene. To try and assert any rights over one lighting arrangement would be like trying to patent curry.