I've had a few nice comments so far about my latest render in [ my Gallery](http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=SpottedKitty), but this isn't *quite* how I originally planned the pic.

My first idea -- which I still think works better -- was for a higher POV looking slightly down on the scene. The attached pic is reduced and lightened (so you can see what's wrong) from an earlier version with this POV, but while the shadows on the wall, the fish, and the girl all look good, there are no shadows (not even of the pillars) along the floor.

All lighting in the scene is from a group of spots in the middle of the well (I think you can just about see the light cones) parented to the glow prop, and pointing out in all directions, with another wide-angle spot pointing down from the ceiling and just bright enough to illuminate the floor. This last spot had "cast shadows" turned off, all others had shadows on.

Can anyone help me figure out what's happened? In hindsight, a couple of my other renders also seem to have these disappearing shadows, but I thought at the time it was because I didn't really understand Poser lighting. Now, I think it's because I don't quite understand Poser lighting...

I'm using Poser 4.0.3, running on Win98, with 512MB of RAM, if that's any help. The room prop is, of course, Awful Soul's excellent Well Room.

Make sure the floor of the well room has "cast shadows" turned on, I think it needs this checked to be able to receive shadows as well, unless I'm only thinking of the poser ground prop...

Nope, wrong way round, karen. The floor needs "cast shadows" turned off in order to receive shadows. That also works to a greater or lesser extent on anything in the Poser world. Try a render against a wall with the wall shadows turned on, then with the shadows turned off. You'll see a remarkable difference in the P4 renderer, at least. In the case of the above pic, if the pillars are part of the same mesh, then yes, shadows would have to be turned on in order for the ground to receive shadows from the pillars. Confused yet? I know I am. :)

Well I knew it was something like that, just had it the wrong way around, LOL :)

Hmm... nope, doesn't work. I just tried switching "cast shadows" off for the Well Room prop (which is all one mesh, BTW) and the pillar shadows all vanished in the render. The girl's shadow on the back wall still came up nicely. Any more ideas, anyone? Incidentally, this was my first pic using Little_Dragon's new Mia v1.2 model, and I think she looks great!

I have to admit to bafflement. I dug out the same prop (I was working on a scene last month that went nowhere) and here's how it turned out for me. This is with P5, but using the P4 renderer for the sake of speed...

Aha! Now, how did you have your lights set for that?

Looking over my own settings again, here's a complete lighting list:-

Four spots at about waist height inside the blue glow and parented to it, looking out horizontally at 90° angles, set to slightly overlap their light cones and all with "cast shadows" set.

One spot looking up from just below this group of four, same colour and intensity to blend in as best I could try, to illuminate the tuna from below. Set with "cast shadows" off.

One wide-angle spot looking down from ceiling level, directly above the blue glow, coloured neutral grey and just bright enough to let the floor texture show (otherwise it was coming out totally black). Again, "cast shadows" off. This shouldn't have been bright enough to wash out any shadows on the floor.

All props and figures had "cast shadows" on.

I'm stumped. Maybe it's because I have P4 and you have P5 (even with the P4 renderer)...? Have you tried the same scene using the Firefly renderer?

"otherwise it was coming out totally black"

I think this may explain it. If the lights that are casting the shadows are not eluminating the floor, then I don't think there is any way they will cast shadows on it!

Placing the light(s) as high as you can manage, then pointing it down somewhat should help.

Compare these two images. In the bottom image the only change is that the one spot in the scene is pointing slightly downwards.

Check how the texture for the floor is applied. It looks like the mat is applied ambient, instead of diffused. I use poser 5, not 4, so I am not sure exactly how the mat is adjusted.

Lesbentley: nice idea, but I'd thought of that. Look up to the reduced pic at the top of this page, and trace out the light cones you can just see in the middle of the blue glow at about waist height. Those lights should fall on the floor just outside the raised lip of the well, but I could see virtually no detail until I placed that ceiling light.

All four lights were originally set with "angle start" at 90° and "angle end" at 110° for mostly even light coverage -- after I noticed the light cones were leaving the top and bottom wall corners dark (and remembered the cones were actually round...) I increased the angles a bit until the gaps filled in.

The effect I was aiming for was that the blue glow was the only light source in the scene, something that is a bit clearer in the original unlightened pic. Should my setup have worked as well as it did, or can anyone suggest improvements?

Aha! Les, my "nice idea" comment was for your original reply. Your second with the two pics seems to have hit the nail right on the head -- I had made all four spots perfectly horizontal. I'll go back to the .pz3 and see what difference tilting the lights down a bit makes. Can this be counted as a Poser bug, or just "something weird happening?

I think it is not so much a matter of the Angle Start and Angle End, as it is a matter of the angle of incidence between the cord of the light and the floor, the actual light object should point downwards to some degree. In any case, if you can't see a shadow without the fill light from above you will never see one with a fill light. Any extra light shining on the floor can only attenuate the shadow. The only way to make the floor lighter without attenuating the shadow is to lighten the Object Color (if it is not already white) or use a lighter texture map.

I cross posted with you in posts #12 & 13. I think you are on the right track now. Good luck!

Re post #12: Perhaps its a bit unfair to call this a Poser bug. We can't expect poser to act exactly like the real world. Perhaps it's best to say this is a Poser 4 limitation.

BINGO!!!

OK, I angled the lights down a bit as you suggested, turned down the fill light a bit so it wouldn't wash out the floor, tweaked a few more things, and suddenly I get shadows!

Attached is a reduced but unlightened render of the new setup. Looks great, and I've got it on my desktop now.

Thanks, les, I've learned something really useful tonight.

Glad to be of help, Kitty.

Perhaps these images, casting shadows on a curved plain will demonstrate more clearly for anyone following this thread. With the light parrelel to the ground (even with quite a wide light cone) no shadow is cast, but with even a slight downward tilt a shadow starts to appear.

Poser shadows are offten a problem, and I have yet to meet anyone who understands them fully, I certainly don't. Nance and Little_Dragon probably know more than most.

Here are some threads touching on shadows:

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1059682

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1714783

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1685692

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1361737

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1673996

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1100126

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1608372

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1268277